Ren

"Isn't unschooling giving you kids what they want? helping them learn in the
way that they want even if they are asking for more structured learning
tools?"

Yes and no.
Yes, it is about helping them get what they want. BUT, what if they don't see that learing is everywhere? What if they've been damaged by school and think they HAVE to use a curriculum to learn?
Our job is then to help them see learning everywhere. From what I remember, Lars was in school previously and all of his friends are schooled. This may be a hang up in thought, not what he truly wants.
I think our job is often to figure out the why's of things, not just respond immedietly with school books/work.

Ren

Tia Leschke

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety." Ben Franklin
leschke@...
> Yes and no.
> Yes, it is about helping them get what they want. BUT, what if they don't
see that learing is everywhere? What if they've been damaged by school and
think they HAVE to use a curriculum to learn?
> Our job is then to help them see learning everywhere. From what I
remember, Lars was in school previously and all of his friends are schooled.
This may be a hang up in thought, not what he truly wants.

No, actually he's never been in school, though all his friends are.
I've just failed badly at helping him to see learning everywhere. And at
this point I'm not sure how to rectify that.

> I think our job is often to figure out the why's of things, not just
respond immedietly with school books/work.

That's the thing here. I don't want to just hand him assignments and
curriculum. If I was going to that, we might as well have done school at
home all along.

All summer I never heard that he was bored. The day school starts, he's
bored. He fell asleep watching TV yesterday. He never falls asleep
watching TV, but he said it was because he was bored because all his friends
are in school. But anything I suggest? No. Last night he said we should
talk about it this morning. I've tried. "When do you want to talk about
schoolwork and stuff?" "mmmnnnmmm". So I follow him around a bit until he
sits down. I sit down across the table. He picks up the newspaper and
starts reading. I write the beginnings of some lists: Big Goals, Smaller
Goals, What he needs. He doesn't look or ask me what I'm doing. So I pick
up a magazine and start looking at it. "Whatcha doin'?" "Reading a
magazine" "Oh". After a while he puts the paper down and goes up to watch
TV. If I push it, he'll just huff at me.

I can't talk with this kid. I don't even *want* to talk about schoolwork,
but I make myself available. So he doesn't want to talk. The car doesn't w
ork because he always turns the radio on. It's too loud for me to hear what
he says, but if I turn it down he gets annoyed. Then there's little point
in talking because he's started out annoyed. I've tried lately to just hang
out with him, watching TV or whatever. He seems to appreciate it when I do,
but he still doesn't talk. (I should take lessons from his girlfriend. He
talks to her.) <g>

If it hadn't been close to a year since the last time, I'd think I was
PMSing.
Tia

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/3/03 12:37:49 PM Pacific Daylight Time, leschke@...
writes:

> No, actually he's never been in school, though all his friends are.
> I've just failed badly at helping him to see learning everywhere. And at
> this point I'm not sure how to rectify that.
>

Gentle hugs to you Tia!!!

I was shocked to hear the statement of failure from you. I did a double take.
Thinking, surely Tia doesn't think she is failing her kid! Perhaps he is
simply going through a rite of passage of sorts. He is trying to find his own way,
and more than likely from the sounds of it, he silently appreciates you
"being there" but doesn't want your help right now. Kind of like when they are
babies and they are just beginning to walk, they don't want to hold your hand, but
they keep checking to see how far they can go and still be able to trust you
will be there if they fall.

There isn't a doubt in my mind that no matter how old he is now, your baby is
simply transitioning into manhood. And even if he refuses to talk about this
stuff with you, do you really believe that his not sharing with you is a
reflection on you? Maybe if you can just realize all you have done for him and all
he has learned without ever being "taught" you can rest assured that he is
going to be just fine.

As far as bookwork goes, let him decide. Again his choice is not a reflection
of you, it's just him finding his own way. He may be inamorate (sp?) with
"doing" schooly stuff right now, but you have raised a free thinker and I am sure
he will continue to grow while traveling his own new roads.

You are a fine mother Tia, please don't feel anything otherwise. He is lucky
to have a mom like you and for you to have a son like him.

Peace to you,
Rhonda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/3/03 7:11:59 PM, RJHill241@... writes:

<< As far as bookwork goes, let him decide. Again his choice is not a
reflection
of you, it's just him finding his own way. >>

But if my kids thought they weren't learning anything and insisted that I get
books, that WOULD be a reflection on unschooling, and whether we had lived it
to the point that it was inside them and that they were confident in their
ability to learn, and aware of the legitimacy/"realness" of what they had
learned on their own, informally, from movies and humor and songs and conversations.

If my kids could say "I haven't learned anything, I need to take a course to
finally learn something," that might be more than just a choice among many
options. It could be them NOT seeing options.

Sandra

Julie Bogart

--- In [email protected],
SandraDodd@a... wrote:
>
> In a message dated 9/3/03 7:11:59 PM, RJHill241@a... writes:
>
> << As far as bookwork goes, let him decide. Again his choice
is not a
> reflection
> of you, it's just him finding his own way. >>
>
> But if my kids thought they weren't learning anything and
insisted that I get
> books, that WOULD be a reflection on unschooling, and
whether we had lived it
> to the point that it was inside them and that they were confident
in their
> ability to learn, and aware of the legitimacy/"realness" of what
they had
> learned on their own, informally, from movies and humor and
songs and conversations.
>
> If my kids could say "I haven't learned anything, I need to take a
course to
> finally learn something," that might be more than just a choice
among many
> options. It could be them NOT seeing options.
>
> Sandra

Could this be similar to a child being brought up in a parent's
faith? Many kids will have beleived what they've been brought up
in until there are challenges from the outside. At that point, one of
the ways kids reaffirm to themselves that the parent's values are
meaningful to them is to challenge them and test the other ideas
they are encountering.

And while we say that learning happens naturally and all the
time, it may be that our kids need to experience what "canned
learning" is like to fully appreciate just how educated they are!

One of the repeated comments I hear from moms with kids
who've been exclusively homeschooled is that one or more of
their children feel they coudn't "handle" going to school like
regular kids. They almost feel that they are being raised at home
because they aren't "good enough" or "capable enough" for
school. This notion is reinforced when public schooled friends
talk about the heavy loads they bear and the importance of their
courses.

I guess I'm just wondering if our kids need not more
explanations about learning, but the concrete experience of
learning in the schoolish way to reaffirm to themselves the
choices we made on their behalf.

Julie B

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/4/03 8:49:43 AM, julie@... writes:

<< Could this be similar to a child being brought up in a parent's

faith? Many kids will have beleived what they've been brought up

in until there are challenges from the outside. >>

Could be!

<<They almost feel that they are being raised at home

because they aren't "good enough" or "capable enough" for

school. >>

Marty thought that for a while, when he was 7 or 8. He asked me if he was
home because he wasn't smart enough to go to school. It must have been
something someone in the neighborhood had said, because I had early on assumed Marty
would want to go to school and would like it (for the sports, at least), but he
chose to stay home.

<<I guess I'm just wondering if our kids need not more

explanations about learning, but the concrete experience of

learning in the schoolish way to reaffirm to themselves the

choices we made on their behalf.>>

Kirby found when he took Driver's Ed that the other kids were sloughing, pret
ty much, and doing the least required, while he was really interested! But he
also knew he had the book at home (somewhere, lost in his room <g>) and COULD
have learned a lot of it on his own. So he appreciated the whole week
(partly because of the novelty) while others did NOT (partly because it was eating
away their whole spring break, and was just more of the same school for them).

Marty was really interested in the presentations at the Live & Learn
conference. He had never heard people talk about unschooling that way. Maybe that
was like being a native of a place and knowing it pretty well, but hearing some
visiting historian tell stories about the things all around you in ways you
didn't know others would see it. Some of it's news to you, but the physical
landscape is totally familiar.

Sandra

Tia Leschke

>
> But if my kids thought they weren't learning anything and insisted that I
get
> books, that WOULD be a reflection on unschooling, and whether we had lived
it
> to the point that it was inside them and that they were confident in their
> ability to learn, and aware of the legitimacy/"realness" of what they had
> learned on their own, informally, from movies and humor and songs and
conversations.
>
> If my kids could say "I haven't learned anything, I need to take a course
to
> finally learn something," that might be more than just a choice among many
> options. It could be them NOT seeing options.

I think this is where the problem is. For so many years *I* was looking for
schooly learning and tended to ignore the unschooly learning. And I guess I
still have a problem in that area, because when he asked what he'd really
learned (after I said he'd learned lots) I had trouble ticking things off to
show him.
Tia

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety." Ben Franklin
leschke@...