Tia Leschke

I have always wondered whether Lars "gets" unschooling. Yesterday he
convinced me that he doesn't. A couple of weeks ago, he said he wanted to
do more "stuff" (he means school work) this year. I didn't pay much
attention, since he said the same last year but resisted any suggestions I
had. And I had finally become comfortable with his learning not looking
schooly at all.

Yesterday was the first day of school here. (Remember that all his friends
go to school, including his new girlfriend.) He came into my office as I
was getting ready to go to the Not Back to School Picnic. (He's too cool to
go to homeschooling events.) He wanted to know when we were getting
started. I thought he was referring to the new program he's on this year,
the one we switched to because it would be so much easier to unschool on, so
I said I was waiting for the learning consultant to call.

Last night he wondered if it would be all right to do his school work in the
evenings because he can concentrate better then. Excuse me? When did we
actually talk about doing schoolwork? Well, after some conversation it
appears that what he wants is assignments to do. From what I can get out of
him and guessing the rest, he seems to think he hasn't learned anything
important all these years. He seems to think it's time to fill the gaps in
his knowledge so he can be like all his friends. When he wanted to know
just *what* he's learned all these years, I was at a loss. So maybe part of
me also believes that only academic stuff "counts". We agreed to talk
more about it this morning. I was getting a bit huffy about school and
schoolwork.

I'm not cut out to do school at home, even if he wants to. So I'm thinking
that I'll show him the GED book we've got here and say that he can work
through that with my help if he needs it. At the same time, I'll offer to
read interesting books that I've long wished I could share with him about
science and history, etc. But considering how he's always resisted reading
and writing of any kind (GED book) or me reading non-fiction to him ( even
when he liked me to read fiction to him, he didn't want non-fiction) I'll be
surprised if either one flies for very long. I'm also thinking of
"assigning" the Teenage Liberation Handbook for him to read. But none of
this feels unschooly, and except for reading to him, feels icky to me. What
to do?
Tia

Dawn Blum

Isn't unschooling giving you kids what they want? helping them learn in the
way that they want even if they are asking for more structured learning
tools?
Have you asked him exactly what it is he thinks he needs to learn? than
might be a start.
Dawn
(getting out the fire extinguisher and preparing for the expected flames I
will get in return to this message)
 

-----Original Message-----
From: Tia Leschke [mailto:leschke@...]
Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2003 9:54 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Aaarrrrgggghhh!


I have always wondered whether Lars "gets" unschooling.  Yesterday he
convinced me that he doesn't.  A couple of weeks ago, he said he wanted to
do more "stuff" (he means school work) this year.  I didn't pay much
attention, since he said the same last year but resisted any suggestions I
had.  And I had finally become comfortable with his learning not looking
schooly at all.

Yesterday was the first day of school here.  (Remember that all his friends
go to school, including his new girlfriend.)  He came into my office as I
was getting ready to go to the Not Back to School Picnic.  (He's too cool to
go to homeschooling events.)  He wanted to know when we were getting
started.  I thought he was referring to the new program he's on this year,
the one we switched to because it would be so much easier to unschool on, so
I said I was waiting for the learning consultant to call.

Last night he wondered if it would be all right to do his school work in the
evenings because he can concentrate better then.  Excuse me?  When did we
actually talk about doing schoolwork?  Well, after some conversation it
appears that what he wants is assignments to do.  From what I can get out of
him and guessing the rest, he seems to think he hasn't learned anything
important all these years.  He seems to think it's time to fill the gaps in
his knowledge so he can be like all his friends.  When he wanted to know
just *what* he's learned all these years, I was at a loss.  So maybe part of
me also believes that only academic stuff "counts".    We agreed to talk
more about it this morning.  I was getting a bit huffy about school and
schoolwork.

I'm not cut out to do school at home, even if he wants to.  So I'm thinking
that I'll show him the GED book we've got here and say that he can work
through that with my help if he needs it.  At the same time, I'll offer to
read interesting books that I've long wished I could share with him about
science and history, etc.  But considering how he's always resisted reading
and writing of any kind (GED book) or me reading non-fiction to him ( even
when he liked me to read fiction to him, he didn't want non-fiction) I'll be
surprised if either one flies for very long.  I'm also thinking of
"assigning" the Teenage Liberation Handbook for him to read.  But none of
this feels unschooly, and except for reading to him, feels icky to me.  What
to do?
Tia



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tia Leschke

>>Isn't unschooling giving you kids what they want? helping them learn in
the
way that they want even if they are asking for more structured learning
tools?
Have you asked him exactly what it is he thinks he needs to learn? than
might be a start.>>

Yes. He doesn't know what he wants/needs to learn. That's what makes me
think this is all about feeling stupid because the other kids know more
about x or y than he does. I'm thinking of asking him what specific things
he feels he's missing, but I suspect all I'll get is, "I don't know." It
really feels like he wants to be told what to do, to follow a curriculum,
and it seems to be about being like everyone else rather than any desire to
learn. Also nerves about being almost 16 and not knowing what he's going to
do in his future.
Tia

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety." Ben Franklin
leschke@...

Betsy

**But considering how he's always resisted reading
and writing of any kind (GED book) or me reading non-fiction to him (
even when he liked me to read fiction to him, he didn't want
non-fiction) I'll be surprised if either one flies for very long.**

Wow, he doesn't even like funny, woodsy, Canadian, by-Farley-Mowat
nonfiction?

I'm reading the strangest novel, by a BC author, about a home schooled
teenaged girl who grows up unknowledgeable and clueless. (Grrr!
Arrrggh!) The author's name is Susan Juby and the book is titled
"Alice, I think".

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0060515430/qid=1062602824/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_1/104-8228073-6949538

It's got a little girl dressed like a hobbit on the front and back
cover. The parts that aren't about homeschooling are funny, but the
laughs at those "foolish homeschoolers" don't work for me.

Here's the first sentence of the review!!!
**Ever since Alice arrived at first grade dressed as a hobbit and
endured a week of increasingly violent peer rejection, she has been home
schooled by her hippie mom and indifferent dad, leaving her with what
her therapist calls "a shocking poverty of age-appropriate real-life
experience."**

Betsy

Tia Leschke

> Wow, he doesn't even like funny, woodsy, Canadian, by-Farley-Mowat
> nonfiction?

Actually, most of Farley Mowat's books are fiction, and he enjoyed them when
I read them to him some years ago.
>
> Here's the first sentence of the review!!!
> **Ever since Alice arrived at first grade dressed as a hobbit and
> endured a week of increasingly violent peer rejection, she has been home
> schooled by her hippie mom and indifferent dad, leaving her with what
> her therapist calls "a shocking poverty of age-appropriate real-life
> experience."**

Oh puke!
Tia

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety." Ben Franklin
leschke@...

Tim and Maureen

I'm not sure what the answer is Tia but I am seeing similar things happen here for my 15 year old. I think it does come from comparing themselves and exploring who they are. Most schooled kids esteem and identity is tied up in what you do or know so this has to be hard for these guys. I mean I struggle with it as an adult so....
I think it comes down to what is important for them and maybe brainstorming some ideas of how to accomplish the goals they see for themselves. Also really identifying why this is an issue.My 15 yr old has been feeling the desire for more peer interaction and was considering trying highschool. She is however aware of her freedom and though I said I would support her in it I suggested we come up with things that she needed from more social contact to see if we could find other ways. After a couple of days of thinking and talking we came up with a list of finding a gaming group, joining art and acting class, starting or joining some kind of youth group, looking for a book club, etc...

Really what she needed was to feel more out there socially and more "normal" for our culture. I know this is a bit different than what you are dealing with but maybe finding out what his motivation is and what his concern is.

Maureen
----- Original Message -----
From: Tia Leschke
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2003 8:31 AM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Aaarrrrgggghhh!




>>Isn't unschooling giving you kids what they want? helping them learn in
the
way that they want even if they are asking for more structured learning
tools?
Have you asked him exactly what it is he thinks he needs to learn? than
might be a start.>>

Yes. He doesn't know what he wants/needs to learn. That's what makes me
think this is all about feeling stupid because the other kids know more
about x or y than he does. I'm thinking of asking him what specific things
he feels he's missing, but I suspect all I'll get is, "I don't know." It
really feels like he wants to be told what to do, to follow a curriculum,
and it seems to be about being like everyone else rather than any desire to
learn. Also nerves about being almost 16 and not knowing what he's going to
do in his future.
Tia

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety." Ben Franklin
leschke@...




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sara

Tia, I have the same problem with Pete. He's 12 and he's got
the "feeling stupids" too. So I'm going to give him some stuff to do.
Math is what's bothering him. He wants to be with his grade level.
HOW DISGUSTING....but I expected it. I think giving them the books
whether text or non fiction, GED, etc. will solve the problem.
They're feeling insecure and no matter what kind of evidence we give
them otherwise will change what they want to believe. I'm not set up
for school either but will try to find a math text for 7th grade. If
he wants to pursue it....so be it. Sara

Julie Bogart

--- In [email protected], Tia Leschke
<leschke@s...> wrote:
>
>
> >>Isn't unschooling giving you kids what they want? helping
them learn in
> the
> way that they want even if they are asking for more structured
learning
> tools?
> Have you asked him exactly what it is he thinks he needs to
learn? than
> might be a start.>>
>
> Yes. He doesn't know what he wants/needs to learn. That's
what makes me
> think this is all about feeling stupid because the other kids
know more
> about x or y than he does.

I'm right there with you, sister. My middle child is dead set on
"doing school." I think some o fit is due to temperament (he likes
goals to complete and while he is learning, he thinks that it
"doesn't count" if it's not following a plan).

My older daughter (14) is worried about college requirements
and her friends quiz her constantly on how she's fulfilling them.
This puts outside pressure on me. She wants me to be involved,
to help her create goals that fit into categories for college
admissions and to hold her accountable.

This means the dreaded study of algebra when her times tables
aren't solid and neither of us see any point to learning it. When
my husband and I have emphasized that learning something for
a requirement isn't the same as learning, she says that it doesn't
matter. She needs it.

At this point, I am giving my time to helping her follow a curricula.
She *needs* to give this route a try and I want to support her, not
be a roadblock. But it taxes me and I don't wholeheartedly
support the direction.

The real issue is peer related. I think teens have such a strong
need to feel that they idenitfy with their peer group, that they are
on the right track (adulthood is a scary future for everyone—to
doubt that you are prepared to do anything is an awful feeling)
and that they are secure in their parents' value system and
choices that influence their lives.


I'm thinking of asking him what specific things
> he feels he's missing, but I suspect all I'll get is, "I don't know."

My two who want to "study" say that they want me to know. They
want me to tell them what they'll need. It feels like too big a job to
figure it out themselves.

For my 6th grader, we are still following his interests and
creating goals that he wants to achieve. So he's cooking through
a cookbook and writing up all the recipes, studying the
constellations and looking for them in his telescope etc.

But for my 14 year old, we pulled out a typical college
admissions subject list and pulled from that. She says she
wants science so we looked at all the sciences. She likes
psychology so I suggested she do a temperament study of her
peer group. I helped her lay out the daily steps, I gave her
reading and due dates and I helped her imagine the end result.
Having a manageable goal that is tangible (but nothing like text
book work) made her feel that she too had important work to do
that was parallel to school without being school.

She's also being tutored in Latin (her idea) and is taking French
and honor's English at the local high school (to see what it's
like). She already hated the French class even though she loves
languages. It's been eye opening to her to see what school is
like. She's already valuing hom and our freedom a lot more. She
loves her English class though. She likes having class
discussions about her primary love: literature.

What was missing this last spring in her opinion was guidance
from me. She feels loved when I take the time to plan with her
and take her concerns seriously. This is how we're doing it.

It
> really feels like he wants to be told what to do, to follow a
curriculum,
> and it seems to be about being like everyone else rather than
any desire to
> learn. Also nerves about being almost 16 and not knowing
what he's going to
> do in his future.

Unschooling shouldn't mean unplanning. Maybe he just needs
some time to sort through how he wants his last two or three
years to look before college (if college in in his sights). If he has
a plan (and it includes cool stuff, not GED prep), he won't miss
that curricula stuff. But if his days look the same as they always
have and he has no way to quanitfy what he knows, I can
imagine he'd be nervous.

My two cents.
Julie

Fetteroll

What does Lars like to do? What's his prefered medium of exploration?
Videos? Hands on? Fiction? Humor? Talking to people?

Are there community colleges in your area? Do they allow 15 yos sign up for
a course? (In some US states you have to have reached graduation age. Do
they have similar laws in Canada?)

Joyce

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/3/03 8:28:13 PM, julie@... writes:

<< But for my 14 year old, we pulled out a typical college

admissions subject list and pulled from that. She says she

wants science so we looked at all the sciences. She likes

psychology so I suggested she do a temperament study of her

peer group. >>

Tell her that until maybe the 1980's, lots of people didn't consider
psychology to be science at all. Talk to her about the difference between what were
once called "soft sciences" (psychology and sociology and I don't know what
else) and "hard sciences" (meaning concrete, not difficult). Astronomy came
under "hard science" even though nobody's brought any of those planets home, and
even before the lunar landing it was "hard" while any study of people was
"soft."

That could tie psychology in with history and philosophy for her.

<<The real issue is peer related. I think teens have such a strong

need to feel that they idenitfy with their peer group, that they are

on the right track>>

We're lucky in having a fair number of other kids who have always or mostly
or sometimes been homeschooled, AND some unschoolers among that number. We're
lucky that of the homeschooled in that group, unschoolers are doing the best
socially and jobwise. It's through La Leche League that we met some, and
through running an unschooling get-together once a week that we have some more
still in our lives, and it's due to Marty's Ork Ball games that they're over here
pretty regularly these days.

A family from Tucson was visiting the other day. They came by to buy
Thinking Sticks! (Well, they were in town anyway. <bwg>) A carload of Ork Ball
players showed up and I introduced them, and it was not as fun for me as it would
have been a few months back. Two of them have gone to school this year.
Julie, who had never been to school at all is fifteen and a dancer, and applied
to get into the public school of performing arts which just opened three years
ago or so. Logan who has been in and out of school is living rurally now with
his mom's fiancee and his children, quite a schooled family, and he's going
to high school because the bus gets him into Albuquerque every day and he's not
out where he's expected to watch younger kids. Practical considerations and
the need for an audience on his part, and a lack of confidence or interest in
homeschooling on his mom's. But until a few weeks ago, I could have said
"homeschooled, homeschooled... " all the way around the room.

Maybe if Kirby didn't have a batch of homeschooled friends he'd be wanting to
"keep up" with his schooled friends too, instead of seeing how far ahead of
them he is in so many ways that the few "behinds" seem small.

Sandra

Betsy

**This means the dreaded study of algebra when her times tables
aren't solid and neither of us see any point to learning it.**

You might "facilitate" the algebra for her by posting a times table on
the wall some place she can easily look at it when she's doing her
algebra. (I realize I'm way off from your main point.)

I use algebra to manage my money. Maybe your daughter's plan involves
getting sooooo wealthy that she might need exponents to track the value
of her investment portfolio. <g>

**My two who want to "study" say that they want me to know. They
want me to tell them what they'll need. It feels like too big a job to
figure it out themselves.**

Would printing off the scope and sequence from the Worldbook website be
helpful for them, or would it be too much like putting cardboard boxes
around their heads?

Betsy

Tia Leschke

> What does Lars like to do?

Sports, film-making and editing, building things, watching TV

What's his prefered medium of exploration?
> Videos? Hands on? Fiction? Humor? Talking to people?

All those except fiction, though he really enjoyed the fiction I read to him
when he was younger.
>
> Are there community colleges in your area? Do they allow 15 yos sign up
for
> a course? (In some US states you have to have reached graduation age. Do
> they have similar laws in Canada?)

I'm not sure what the situation is here, though I know they are having
overcrowding problems. Actually I know of one boy who was allowed to take a
computer course at about that age. It was a few years ago, before the
overcrowding became such a problem. We'll probably be sending him to a one
week film school one of these times.
Tia

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety." Ben Franklin
leschke@...

Judie C. Rall

First, the maker of America's second-most popular college entrance
exam releases this year's test scores and declares incoming freshmen
largely unprepared for math and science classes. A week later,
results from the nation's No. 1 test show math scores at a 35-year
high.

Something doesn't add up.

Researchers for the ACT analyzed this year's results and concluded
that just 26 percent of test-takers were ready to handle college
coursework in science and 40 percent in math.

Meanwhile, the SAT math scores were the best since at least 1967:
519 on a scale with a top score of 800. Since the 1999 exam, math
scores are up eight points.

Some educators say the number of students enrolled in remedial math
and science courses at four-year schools support the ACT's
conclusions.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=519&ncid=718&e=6&u=/a
p/20030907/ap_on_re_us/sat_act

My conclusion: those in the 26% and 40% were probably the only ones
with enough natural interest in math and science to motivate them to
study and learn. That doesn't mean the rest of the kids are
"remedial". Maybe they are just artists and writers instead of
scientists and mathematicians.

Judie

Judie C. Rall

My son is 18 years old, and looking for a full time job. We have
filled out so many job applications, and have not gotten a single
call-back. I am wondering what you all had your children put on
their job applications.

When it says "high school" I started out just putting "homeschool"
but wondered if I would be better off making up a name for our school
and having him put that on the application, something like "Southwest
Oklahoma Learning Center" or "New Directions High School" or maybe
"Albert Einstein Learning Academy."

Which do you think would be better?

Judie

Christina Morrissey

Tia,

You probably have thought of this already...but do you have access to a
volunteer website like volunteermatch.com? How about a volunteer job that
puts him to work in his field of interest while his friends are in
school? My almost 15 yr old son has been doing this for over a year, and I
can say that it has been a tremendous help in giving him a sense of self
worth as well as letting his friends see what cool options homeschooling
afforded. (Although the whole concept of working for "free" was a real
tough one for them to understand!) He teaches Seniors how to use computers
and the internet for the city of Seattle. He's been at it for over a year,
and was their first and youngest intergenerational volunteer and they are
now very interested in recruiting more kids like him. It's in his area of
interest. My 11 yr has just begun volunteering at an animal
shelter. She's interested in a career with animals. (Not as a
vet--doesn't want to "kill animals, mom") Both positions were found on
this website. My son's was sort of backdoor, from a different position and
then calling and talking to the director and asking what else they had.

Check it out....Working is so much more "real" to teens....you know!

Christina in Seattle




> > What does Lars like to do?
>
>Sports, film-making and editing, building things
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pamela Sorooshiantafti

My conclusion: those in the 26% and 40% were probably the only ones
with enough natural interest in math and science to motivate them to
study and learn. That doesn't mean the rest of the kids are
"remedial". Maybe they are just artists and writers instead of
scientists and mathematicians. >>

Probably -- but sometimes it sure seems like most of the rest want to go into Business Administration and enroll in my statistics and economics courses. <G>

-pam

Julie Bogart

> My conclusion: those in the 26% and 40% were probably the
only ones
> with enough natural interest in math and science to motivate
them to
> study and learn. That doesn't mean the rest of the kids are
> "remedial". Maybe they are just artists and writers instead of
> scientists and mathematicians.
>
> Judie

Or maybe the requirements have changed. I only had to take one
easy math class in college. I only needed two courses of math in
high school.

Perhaps the test is more difficult and/or the students in college
are being required to take more math and therefore more
students who wouldn't naturally take it are being forced to...

Julie B

undermom

Does the article mention that one thing that's changed is that every
high school junior in the state of Illinois took the A.C.T. because
it's being used as part of the state's testing program? That means
that thousands of kids who wouldn't normally take one of these tests
are included in the A.C.T. results, while the SAT is not being used in
this way anywhere and so is only taken by kids interested in going on
to college.

Deborah, in IL

*********

Fetteroll

on 9/7/03 1:18 PM, Judie C. Rall at adonai@... wrote:

> My son is 18 years old, and looking for a full time job. We have
> filled out so many job applications, and have not gotten a single
> call-back.

> And besides, he has nothing to put on a resume, he has never had a
> job.

Maybe it would be better if he did some volunteer work in areas that
interest him. Look at it from the point of view of an employer who sees
hundreds of generic applications. Whether you put in a made up school name
or homeschooled, either may raise your son to the not obviously rejectable
pile (like an application full of mispellings) but neither will supply what
an employer needs in an employee. (Unless the employer happens to be a
homeschooler or had good luck with another homeschool hire.)

What employers are looking for is someone who has shown interest in the
field their being hired for. (Unless he's going after stock boy or something
that doesn't need skills and has a high turn over.) Doing something related
to the job in another or job, or even better in their spare time indicates
someone has a liking for what the job entails and is likely to do well and
stick with the job long enough to give a return on the cost of training
them.

So if he spends a year persuing what interests him: volunteering,
apprenticing, part time jobs, independent projects, college courses for fun,
he'll be more marketable since he'll be able to show an employer what his
passions are. He might be giving up a year of full time pay but he'd be
essentially getting a year's worth of "training" for free. If he were to pay
a school for that training, he'd not only be not earning money but he'd be
also paying someone else.

Joyce

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/8/03 12:47:02 AM, dacunefare@... writes:

<< Does the article mention that one thing that's changed is that every

high school junior in the state of Illinois took the A.C.T. because

it's being used as part of the state's testing program? That means

that thousands of kids who wouldn't normally take one of these tests

are included in the A.C.T. results, while the SAT is not being used in

this way anywhere and so is only taken by kids interested in going on

to college. >>

That's the way it was in New Mexico when I was a teen (and might still be).
ACT was required in school. SAT was only taken by people who wanted to apply
to schools requiring that, and many of the universities in state were happy
with just the ACT scores.

Sandra

susan marie

On Sunday, September 7, 2003, at 06:22 PM, Pamela Sorooshiantafti wrote:

> My conclusion: those in the 26% and 40% were probably the only ones
> with enough natural interest in math and science to motivate them to
> study and learn. That doesn't mean the rest of the kids are
> "remedial". Maybe they are just artists and writers instead of
> scientists and mathematicians. >>
>
> Probably -- but sometimes it sure seems like most of the rest want to
> go into Business Administration and enroll in my statistics and
> economics courses. <G>
>
> -pam
>
There's another possibility -- I taught high school math - and our
department head went to a seminar, and learned that the way math is
taught in schools (rigid, learn the steps, etc) and the way it is tested
on the sat (intuitive thinking, problem solving) are different. Perhaps,
the schools have gotten more rigid, and the creative thinkers are having
that drilled out of them. I did poorly in math classes that were highly
structured, well in the more relaxed ones, great in college ones were
the professor let us go off on our own, and did well in both sat and gre
math sections. But in the highly structured high school classes, my
grades were mediocre -- you know, when you had to do 40 homework
problems, even though you understood the concept after five, or where
you had to "show all your work" even when you could do it in your head,
or when you could make that intuitive leap to the answer, but that
wasn't the "right" way to solve the problem, so it didn't "count".

btw, her info from the seminar only served to annoy the majority of the
teachers, who were the rigid type, and didn't change a thing.

so, I'm wondering if the very rigid structure of school math, and the
current craze of "teaching to the test" - the ones that the schools
themselves give - has actually hurt the college entrance scores. I
taught an sat prep class - and what we concentrated on was not the
actual math - it was the intuitive thinking, approaching problems,
thinking about WHAT the question was asking, and not HOW to answer.
Almost all of the kids improved their scores, one as much as 100
points -- all by working on their thinking, not the arithmetic or
algebra.

fwiw,
susan
in md


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Judie C. Rall

> If he's concentrating on "teen job" types of things (retail, fast food)
> he may want to broaden out to a wider market. I was surprised how many
> entry-level jobs hospitals provide--patient transporter, all sorts of
> clerk and cleaning jobs, as well as the more obvious stuff. What does he
> like to do?

HA - he likes video games and music. And to be honest, he really
dislikes work. So I think he is in for a rude awakening when he gets
a job, I'm afraid he may even have to lose a job due to lack of
really working hard and being committed, before he believes what I
say. I have tried to impress upon him when he does work for me, but
doesn't finish and doesn't do a very good job, that a future employer
would not be pleased with this. But.....now I'm confused, you guys
said I shouldn't hold him to finishing anything because then he
wouldn't start anything. What if he has the idea that he can do
this on his job?


Judie
Catch my Ebay Auctions!
http://www.unhinderedliving.com/ebaypage.html

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/8/03 8:29:02 AM, seanachai3@... writes:

<< our
department head went to a seminar, and learned that the way math is
taught in schools (rigid, learn the steps, etc) and the way it is tested
on the sat (intuitive thinking, problem solving) are different >>

Susan, I did well on math sections of tests even though I quit taking math in
high school partway through Algebra II becuase I had no idea what they were
talking about.

The SAT math questions made WAY more sense just sitting there than Algebra II
had made with a teacher and a book.

Now I have a glimmer of a possibility WHY!

<<so, I'm wondering if the very rigid structure of school math, and the
current craze of "teaching to the test" - the ones that the schools
themselves give - has actually hurt the college entrance scores.>>>

Easily likely.

Sandra

Pamela Sorooshiantafti

That's the way it was in New Mexico when I was a teen (and might still be).
ACT was required in school. SAT was only taken by people who wanted to apply
to schools requiring that, and many of the universities in state were happy
with just the ACT scores. >>


Just thought you all might be interested in some other comparisons of the ACT versus SAT:

Most colleges will accept either - and they are different - so it might be useful for people applying to college to take both and then only submit the one on which they do best.

The ACT English is probably better for those especially good in grammar, but the SAT for those with great vocabularies, for example.

Here are other comparisons:

ACT is preferred by more schools, schools in the middle of the country, and more often by public schools than private schools.

SAT is preferred by schools on both coasts and more often by private schools.

The questions on the ACT appear in the "order of difficulty" - not so on the SAT.

SAT covers only up through algebra and basic geometry, all formulas are provided. ACT also covers a tiny bit of trig, no formulas provided.

SAT penalizes wrong answers. ACT does not penalize for wrong answers.

SAT is "stand-alone" - no attempt to base on school curriculum. ACT is more based on school curriculum.

SAT questions are trickier - there are many more distracters. ACT more straightforward, few distracters.

SAT has two sections that count plus there is always an experimental section that doesn't count (but test takers don't know which section that is). Math section is in 2 30-minute and 1 15-minute segment, English is the same - 2 30-minute and 1 15-minute test segment. The experimental is another 30-minute segment of either math or English.

ACT has four sections that count plus an experimental section that doesn't count (students can tell which is experimental - it is clearly an added on section). Sections are reading 35 minutes, math 60 minutes, Engish 45 minutes, science 35 minutes.

SAT scores are from 200 to 800 on each of the two sections - total possible 1600, median score about 1,000.

ACT scores are 1 to 36 for each of the four subjects, averaged together for composite score. Median is around 21.




My own guess is that those who have a lot of general knowledge and good English skills are likely to score relatively better on the ACT, because they'll be able to make good educated guesses, and those that they miss won't hurt them.


I wouldn't worry about the extra math on the ACT, not doing trig won't make much difference, there are only 4 trig questions on the test and the other questions are likely to be more straightforward than the trickier ones on the SAT.

-pam

Tia Leschke

> You probably have thought of this already...but do you have access to a
> volunteer website like volunteermatch.com? How about a volunteer job that
> puts him to work in his field of interest while his friends are in
> school?

Might be a hard concept for him, since he's been working and making good
money since he was about 13. But it might be worth looking to find
something that matches his interests. There's a volunteer bureau in
Victoria, but it mostly lists opportunities in Victoria, an hour and a half
away by bus. Might be worth it to him if we can find him something to do
with either film or mountain biking.

My almost 15 yr old son has been doing this for over a year, and I
> can say that it has been a tremendous help in giving him a sense of self
> worth as well as letting his friends see what cool options homeschooling
> afforded. (Although the whole concept of working for "free" was a real
> tough one for them to understand!) He teaches Seniors how to use
computers
> and the internet for the city of Seattle.

The Victoria library actually pays young people to do this. An unschooling
friend did that last summer.
Tia

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety." Ben Franklin
leschke@...

Holly Furgason

I took the ACT but not the SAT because I was going to a mid-west
school. On the math section I literally guessed (as in I didn't even
try to figure them out) at every question and scored a 32 out of 36.
I think that was the beginning of my questioning educational status
quo.

Holly

--- In [email protected], Pamela Sorooshiantafti
<pamsoroosh@m...> wrote:

> My own guess is that those who have a lot of general knowledge and
good English skills are likely to score relatively better on the ACT,
because they'll be able to make good educated guesses, and those that
they miss won't hurt them.
>
>
> I wouldn't worry about the extra math on the ACT, not doing trig
won't make much difference, there are only 4 trig questions on the
test and the other questions are likely to be more straightforward
than the trickier ones on the SAT.
>
> -pam

Sara

Tia, I've been thinking about this thread for days now and thinking
of when this is going to happen to Pete. I mentioned he was twelve.
Reflecting back, no book or school is going to solve growing up. I
have another son who is 17 now but is in public school. For the past
two years he has been looking ahead restlessly and just now this
summer has made a life decision. He is now much more peaceful. I
talked to him last night about some major stuff and he said "I feel
better this year and better about myself than I ever have". It's
because he decided what to do and we've supported him and talked
everything out. I think Lars is looking for his path. Of course, you
already know that. I'll be thinking of him and hoping he can attain
the peace I see in my 17yo now. Sara

Bill & Diane

One thing you might consider, too, is what type of work he's looking
for. Well-known companies and retailers receive a lot of applications.
Smaller employers, and companies your family has a relationship with may
be better sources of jobs.

If he's concentrating on "teen job" types of things (retail, fast food)
he may want to broaden out to a wider market. I was surprised how many
entry-level jobs hospitals provide--patient transporter, all sorts of
clerk and cleaning jobs, as well as the more obvious stuff. What does he
like to do?

:-) Diane

>>My son is 18 years old, and looking for a full time job. We have
>>filled out so many job applications, and have not gotten a single
>>call-back.
>>

Tia Leschke

>
> HA - he likes video games and music. And to be honest, he really
> dislikes work.

This could well be why he isn't getting hired. That attitude shows on a
person, even if they don't say a word.

So I think he is in for a rude awakening when he gets
> a job, I'm afraid he may even have to lose a job due to lack of
> really working hard and being committed, before he believes what I
> say. I have tried to impress upon him when he does work for me, but
> doesn't finish and doesn't do a very good job, that a future employer
> would not be pleased with this.

Have you ever refused to pay him for a job poorly done? If I offered to pay
my kid to do something, I'd expect it to be done right. At that point,
you're the boss rather than the parent.

But.....now I'm confused, you guys
> said I shouldn't hold him to finishing anything because then he
> wouldn't start anything. What if he has the idea that he can do
> this on his job?

He'll get fired. Maybe he'll learn from that. Maybe he just needs to hear
it from someone besides his mother.

There's a big difference between things he starts just because he thinks he
might like it, and things he's being paid to do. An employer just isn't
going to keep an unproductive employee on the payroll unless she thinks he
has some real potential that makes it worth it to her.

I'm curious. Whose idea is it for him to get a job? If he really doesn't
want a job, why is he looking? Are you feeling like it's time he looked
toward leaving the nest? Or is he just wanting spending money? If *he*
wants to leave the nest, I think he'll be willing to do what's necessary to
get a job and work towards moving out. If it's Mom who wants him to have a
job, he isn't all that likely to get hired.
Tia

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety." Ben Franklin
leschke@...

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/8/03 11:51:58 AM, cen46624@... writes:

<< I was surprised how many
entry-level jobs hospitals provide--patient transporter, all sorts of
clerk and cleaning jobs, as well as the more obvious stuff. >>

Airports, too, whether for the city (if it's city-owned, as Albuquerque's is)
or the airlines.

Sandra