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In a message dated 9/2/03 3:26:06 AM, dezigna@... writes:

<< . Renee must have mentioned it to Jayn every time
she saw her, because Jayn kept on telling me, "The Mary-Kate is for
Angel". Renee has repeatedly said that Jayn has all the toys she, ie
Renee, wants. I am convinced that she was only coming here in order to
use Jayn's toys. >>

Can you just buy her the Mary-Kate doll as a gift? Poor thing.

We have a kid who comes here to play video games. I'm the only person it
seems to bother, so I really try to just breathe through it and let it go. He
DOES do other things with the kids, but mostly he's here to wait his turn to play
the newest games Kirby has bought.

<<I felt like I was somehow letting down the philosophy of freedom if I
intervened. >>

But your focus should be your OWN child's freedom, and her own comfort in her
own home. That's the problem with any discussions of "freedom" or "liberty
and justice," even. 21st century: Free to have a job one's not qualified
for? Free to bug the heck out of other people? Free to be a telemarketer?
20th century: Free to discriminate? Free to have a segregated neighborhood?
19th century: Free to own slaves or lynch the neighbors?

<<Sandra's posts from the past had
accounts of things she has said to other children, and there were
examples of Holly and others who seemed so clear eyed about the toxic
behaviors they encounter in non-unschoolers. >>

That was often with Holly saying, "I know, mom, but I want to go over there
anyway" in response to me saying "Well if they're being tacky, you don't have
to go!

I had words again with Marty's friend Logan Sunday night who was
pontificating on his hatred of lesbians. I wanted Marty to say sofriends of a lesbian
couple most of us know. Logan knows them too, but probably didn't know they're a
couple because he's been around them separately at different times. So I
slammed him with that news and told him to keep his bullshit at his own house.

He said "Yes ma'am" and left (legitimately, to go on a Ticketmaster's run
with others) soon after. I asked Marty the next day whether Logan survived. He
said "I was a conversation killer," but that Logan would be back. I asked
Holly that night whether Logan would badmouth me behind my back, and she said he
never has before. She said he did say to her one time that he was scared to
death of me, that if he said the wrong thing I would stab him in the face.
"In the back!" I told Holly.

My first goal is to change his thinking.
Second acceptable goal is to make him afraid enough that he'll be more
socially acceptable in my house.
Third Plan: He won't come over.

But Marty likes him, so if Marty suffers some embarrassment or killed
conversations for the "freedom" to keep having Logan in a house he shares with
others, I don't feel too bad about it.

<< I wonder what she thinks
when she sees someone whom she admires using violent repressive
parenting - name calling, shaming, punishments, removal of "privileges",
and control. Yet how can I ask Jayn about it without being leading or
seeming to be criticizing.>>

I know! I know!
Well maybe I have an idea.

You could say casually, or in a comforting moment, "I bet Tania's parents
were really mean to her when she was little. That's too bad, because it makes
her kind of a mean mom. We're trying to be really nice to you so it will make
it easier for you to be a nice mom someday. Tania'a probably nicer than her
parents were, and Renee will probably be nicer to her kids than Tania is, but
it's too bad they can't hurry and be nicer now."

<<I wish the behavior influence could work the other way, as some
of you have witnessed in your dealings with other kids, but I just don't
think it will right now.>>

Sometimes I think it does, depending on the personality of the kids. I've
seen Kirby and Holly both just SAY things to other kids about loosening up and
not being so controlling, or about learning things for fun, or about not being
critical (whatever the little situation was at the time), but Marty lets Logan
run his runny-mouth course.

There was another friend Marty had from ice hockey years ago, and he kept
inviting Marty over, but the boy was mean to his younger brother and Marty didn't
like that at all. Marty would try to include the younger boy, or just leave
and go play with him, because he didn't want to be an agent or the excuse for
that boy being sad or hurt or crying. But the older brother was truly a
bully, so Marty said no to a couple of invitations, and then asked me to tell the
grandmother (GREAT grandmother, actually, who was raising them in a really
fancy house, well provided for, and she seemed really nice and bright, but
somewhere down the line things hadn't gone well) exactly what he didn't like, that he
would only go back if the older boy would be nice to the brother while he was
there.

He did visit at least one more time.

<<My husband kept saying that I should ask the group for advice, as I
frantically searched the archives and cried every night - this was weeks
ago before I made my fateful decision to try to control my child's
relationship with this other. >>

You were trying to maintain her peace and safety. That's good.

<< Most shameful of all, I am glad that this child is going
to school. She will be away for hours every day, and then they will need
their family time.>>

It might be fun for her. OR it might not, and that other mom might be coming
to you for homeschooling advice. Then you won't be intruding if you give her
mothering advice.

<<I hope she makes a ton of other friends and drops
Jayn like a hot potato.>>

I hope she comes to realize how cool your house is and starts to act the way
you want her to!

Kids get older, and many just drop their little-kid defenses in favor of more
mature interactions.

Sandra

Robyn Coburn

<<Can you just buy her the Mary-Kate doll as a gift? Poor thing.>>



You know I have thought about this, since Jayn asked for and received
both, plus some other little ones as well. I feel awkward because for
all I know they may have purchased it and are hiding it for her birthday
in October, and if I ask if they have it, or would they mind if I got
it, (or indeed if I just bought it) they might feel it as a judgment of
them. (Let's face it - it would be!) I thought I would phrase it as
asking for advice on what I could get her for her birthday, because I
don't want to duplicate anything.

<<We have a kid who comes here to play video games. I'm the only person
it
seems to bother, so I really try to just breathe through it and let it
go. He
DOES do other things with the kids, but mostly he's here to wait his
turn to play the newest games Kirby has bought.>>



I know what you mean about trying to breathe through it. However Jayn
has been very willing to let Renee use anything. There are some special
things with many tiny parts or that are no longer available, that I put
up before they come, just because I don't want the distress of anything
lost or broken. Jayn is remarkably careful, and I am assiduous in
keeping stuff together - God bless the inventor of Ziploc baggies. Renee
has asked for them repeatedly, but I tell her they are not available, by
my decision.

<<But your focus should be your OWN child's freedom, and her own comfort
in her
own home.>>



Thank you for this validation, and to all to have responded.



<<You could say casually, or in a comforting moment, "I bet Tania's
parents
were really mean to her when she was little. That's too bad, because it
makes
her kind of a mean mom. We're trying to be really nice to you so it
will make
it easier for you to be a nice mom someday. Tania'a probably nicer than
her
parents were, and Renee will probably be nicer to her kids than Tania
is, but
it's too bad they can't hurry and be nicer now.">>



I don't think Jayn sees her as being a mean mom. I don't think she
realizes Renee is manipulating her. I believe that Tania likes Jayn,
and feels sorry for her for having a mother who wants to limit her
playtime (for any other reason than being punished that is). Renee
started saying in my hearing how sorry she felt for Jayn, an idea I
think it is unlikely she developed for herself. People sometimes use the
expression of pity to feel better about themselves. Tania jumped on her
quickly to stop saying that.


<<I hope she comes to realize how cool your house is and starts to act
the way
you want her to!>>



I'm not sure my house is cool, although of course we have free access to
any snacks they like. I suspect that Renee knows she is being closely
watched, even if I am reading a magazine or doing e-mail. My husband
can't stand the way a mess is left, but I am perfectly happy to clean up
after them myself, rather than feel in any way obligated to "force" Jayn
to reciprocate tidying up at their house. Of course there is much less
mess there, because there are way fewer toys. The one time I tried to
please him by making Jayn put some tea set things away before she and
Renee were going over to her place, was a disaster of crying. I was
ashamed that I had allowed a feeling of being insufficient, of wanting
Jayn to be viewed as fantastic by this other parent, to overcome my
better judgment of what Jayn should be asked to do. It is not only
Jayn's behavior that is being negatively effected, it is mine and my
thinking!! This was before the shot in the arm of the Conference.

Renee returned and helped me put the stuff away after Tania told her to
and sent her back. Actually Renee is very good about putting her trash
into the bin, and I always thank her. I figure Jayn will get that
eventually. This is one of the issues that some of the conference
speakers got me thinking about - the difference between the appearance
of being well-behaved, and the truth of feeling free and honest in one's
behavior and actions.



Robyn Coburn




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