Re: [Unschooling-Discussion] Re: contracts some more
Judie C. Rall
> If you try something new in a restaurant and don't like it, do you finishAbsolutely. Yes. I don't believe in wasting anything.
> the plate anyway because you paid for it? If you're full, do you keep eating
> anyway, because you paid for it?
>
> Pam
Judie
Pam Hartley
> Well, I'm sitting here thinking how I've tried to do the absolutePart of unschooling that is helpful to many people is to stop thinking in
> very best by my kids by unschooling them, and letting them make their
> own choices about what they want to study.
terms of "letting them make their own choices about what they want to
study". Let them just live their lives and pursue their interests and change
their interests when they want to.
> So when my son said heYou have the opportunity to learn something good and valuable here if you'll
> wanted this, I had no reason to not believe him. No reason to think
> that he wouldn't complete the work, because in the past when he has
> asked to do something, he's always completed it. He's always been
> very responsible, so no reason to think he wouldn't be again.
let yourself. He very likely did not start this course thinking, "I'll trick
my Mom into paying a huge amount of money and then I'll just QUIT!
Hahahahaha." He probably thought he'd enjoy it and found that he didn't.
>You can't. Everyone makes mistakes. Continuing to do something we don't want
> I'm sitting here thinking, how could I ever have known that this
> wasn't the right choice for him, when he told me it's what he wanted?
>
for the sake of money is putting money ahead of humans. Bad idea. Your son
will make mistakes, being human and all. If you can look at him and his
needs first and "money and contracts" second, you can heal what was done to
you.
> So I guess the "right thing" is for me to just suck it up and pay theThey might, if you give them the opportunity and example.
> money, but for my son to not have to do anything. Wish I could get
> the people in MY life to let me get away with that.
If you try something new in a restaurant and don't like it, do you finish
the plate anyway because you paid for it? If you're full, do you keep eating
anyway, because you paid for it?
Pam
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/31/03 2:43:52 PM, adonai@... writes:
<< If you're full, do you keep eating
wasteful to eat it than to pack it up and take it home.
Sandra
<< If you're full, do you keep eating
> anyway, because you paid for it?Absolutely. Yes. I don't believe in wasting anything.
>
> Pam
>>But if it doesn't stay inside you, or you were already full, it's more
wasteful to eat it than to pack it up and take it home.
Sandra
[email protected]
I didn't get the e-mail from Pam Hartley which had asked if a person would
finish food she didn't like just because it was paid for. That e-mail also had
this really good comment:
-=- Continuing to do something we don't want
for the sake of money is putting money ahead of humans. Bad idea. Your son
will make mistakes, being human and all. If you can look at him and his
needs first and "money and contracts" second, you can heal what was done to
you.-=-
I agree with Pam, that if people and their human needs are put first, other
things fall into place better.
Sandra
finish food she didn't like just because it was paid for. That e-mail also had
this really good comment:
-=- Continuing to do something we don't want
for the sake of money is putting money ahead of humans. Bad idea. Your son
will make mistakes, being human and all. If you can look at him and his
needs first and "money and contracts" second, you can heal what was done to
you.-=-
I agree with Pam, that if people and their human needs are put first, other
things fall into place better.
Sandra
Fetteroll
on 8/31/03 11:26 AM, Judie C. Rall at adonai@... wrote:
But it's really a horrible burden to obligate myself to myself not to waste
anything. As Sandra pointed out, once a meal is paid for is it less wasteful
to eat beyond your capacity and grow fat or to throw the food away? At
restaurants we can't choose how much food they bring us. We're at the mercy
of restaurants and that isn't fair to ourselves to enslave our waistlines to
the retaurant's choice of how much food is put on our plates.
I've found it more freeing to do what I can to prevent waste -- turning off
lights when I see them on, not taking more food than I can eat -- than to
"use up" waste in a situation that was out of my control. I can't control
how much food I get at a restaurant.
And I can't control the content of a class once I sign up for it. I owe it
to myself to find out as much as I can about a class to see if I'll enjoy
it, but once the money is spent, if the class isn't what I hoped it would be
then the money is gone whether I'm sitting at home or sitting in misery in a
class I dislike.
Joyce
> Absolutely. Yes. I don't believe in wasting anything.I used to be that way. Still am to some extent.
But it's really a horrible burden to obligate myself to myself not to waste
anything. As Sandra pointed out, once a meal is paid for is it less wasteful
to eat beyond your capacity and grow fat or to throw the food away? At
restaurants we can't choose how much food they bring us. We're at the mercy
of restaurants and that isn't fair to ourselves to enslave our waistlines to
the retaurant's choice of how much food is put on our plates.
I've found it more freeing to do what I can to prevent waste -- turning off
lights when I see them on, not taking more food than I can eat -- than to
"use up" waste in a situation that was out of my control. I can't control
how much food I get at a restaurant.
And I can't control the content of a class once I sign up for it. I owe it
to myself to find out as much as I can about a class to see if I'll enjoy
it, but once the money is spent, if the class isn't what I hoped it would be
then the money is gone whether I'm sitting at home or sitting in misery in a
class I dislike.
Joyce
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/31/03 03:43:46 PM Central Daylight Time,
adonai@... writes:
Judie
****************************************************
So, if you absolutely absolutely hate something you order at a restaurant,
you force yourself to eat it anyway because you don't believe in wasting
anything? That makes no sense whatsoever! If you are full, you keep putting the fork
in your mouth? Take it home! They allow that!
I don't like to waste things either, BUT if I don't like what I ordered, I
don't look at it as a waste, I know that I won't order that again. No waste. If
I buy a book for my kids and they don't use it and it sits on a shelf, did I
waste my money or a tree or my time? NO. Maybe someday, they will look at the
book, maybe someday I will have another kid who will, or a grandchild, or my
husband, or a niece, or maybe one of you will post one day that one of your kids
is looking for this certain book and just can't find it... Just because
something isn't what you thought it should be initially, does not mean it is
valueless, or wasted. I bought a different brand of that boxed mac-n-cheese stuff, I
don't like any of it, but my kids do and it is easy for them to fix. Turns
out that *on sale* doesn't translate into *my kids love it* good thing though. I
forgot to buy dog food and wasn't getting back out until later that evening.
The dog was hungry, the kids said YUCK and the dog got mac-n-cheese at a cost
to me of thirty-three cents. Well, worth it if you ask me. Other wise I would
have had to call Darin, ask him to come home to give me the car so I could go
back out, buy the dog food, then go back out again to get Darin when he was
done with work. Cost? More than thirty-three cents I assure you.
Granted your cost was way more than thirty-three cents, BUT can't you turn
this around somehow? Others have suggested just quitting, someone else suggested
keeping the things, maybe he will use them later, nothing wrong with that.
You have to set this right in your mind by yourself. It isn't your kids fault
that he doesn't like the class. He thought he might like it, he didn't, end of
story. I thought my kids would like the mac-n-cheese, what do I know? I don't
eat it. Obviously this is comparing apples and oranges, but really it is the
same thing, after all they are both fruit.
~Nancy
Genius may have its limitations, but stupidity is not thus handicapped.
Elbert Hubbard
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
adonai@... writes:
> If you try something new in a restaurant and don't like it, do you finishAbsolutely. Yes. I don't believe in wasting anything.
> the plate anyway because you paid for it? If you're full, do you keep eating
> anyway, because you paid for it?
>
> Pam
Judie
****************************************************
So, if you absolutely absolutely hate something you order at a restaurant,
you force yourself to eat it anyway because you don't believe in wasting
anything? That makes no sense whatsoever! If you are full, you keep putting the fork
in your mouth? Take it home! They allow that!
I don't like to waste things either, BUT if I don't like what I ordered, I
don't look at it as a waste, I know that I won't order that again. No waste. If
I buy a book for my kids and they don't use it and it sits on a shelf, did I
waste my money or a tree or my time? NO. Maybe someday, they will look at the
book, maybe someday I will have another kid who will, or a grandchild, or my
husband, or a niece, or maybe one of you will post one day that one of your kids
is looking for this certain book and just can't find it... Just because
something isn't what you thought it should be initially, does not mean it is
valueless, or wasted. I bought a different brand of that boxed mac-n-cheese stuff, I
don't like any of it, but my kids do and it is easy for them to fix. Turns
out that *on sale* doesn't translate into *my kids love it* good thing though. I
forgot to buy dog food and wasn't getting back out until later that evening.
The dog was hungry, the kids said YUCK and the dog got mac-n-cheese at a cost
to me of thirty-three cents. Well, worth it if you ask me. Other wise I would
have had to call Darin, ask him to come home to give me the car so I could go
back out, buy the dog food, then go back out again to get Darin when he was
done with work. Cost? More than thirty-three cents I assure you.
Granted your cost was way more than thirty-three cents, BUT can't you turn
this around somehow? Others have suggested just quitting, someone else suggested
keeping the things, maybe he will use them later, nothing wrong with that.
You have to set this right in your mind by yourself. It isn't your kids fault
that he doesn't like the class. He thought he might like it, he didn't, end of
story. I thought my kids would like the mac-n-cheese, what do I know? I don't
eat it. Obviously this is comparing apples and oranges, but really it is the
same thing, after all they are both fruit.
~Nancy
Genius may have its limitations, but stupidity is not thus handicapped.
Elbert Hubbard
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
odrade7
Well you could always send the dish back to the kitchen if it was
truly awful or see if someone else in your family did like it or
want to finish the meal. That's not wasting anything either. There
isn't just one way to look at that.
As far as the home course on photography.... same suggestions apply
here. If there is a time limit on the course see if someone else in
your family would rather have a go at it instead. If there's no time
requirements there's loads of options. 1) Do nothing for a bit, 2)
wait and see if your DS gets interested in it again at a later date,
3) <as others suggested> sit down with it and check it out together,
4) sell the damn thing on eBay and get some of your money back. :)
The list of options can go on and on. Take a deep breath, take a
step back, and remember that this is only "stuff"..... shouldn't your
SON and his feelings come first? :)
TreeGoddess
<<If you try something new in a restaurant and don't like it, do you
finish the plate anyway because you paid for it? If you're full, do
you keep eating anyway, because you paid for it?>>
[Absolutely. Yes. I don't believe in wasting anything.]
truly awful or see if someone else in your family did like it or
want to finish the meal. That's not wasting anything either. There
isn't just one way to look at that.
As far as the home course on photography.... same suggestions apply
here. If there is a time limit on the course see if someone else in
your family would rather have a go at it instead. If there's no time
requirements there's loads of options. 1) Do nothing for a bit, 2)
wait and see if your DS gets interested in it again at a later date,
3) <as others suggested> sit down with it and check it out together,
4) sell the damn thing on eBay and get some of your money back. :)
The list of options can go on and on. Take a deep breath, take a
step back, and remember that this is only "stuff"..... shouldn't your
SON and his feelings come first? :)
TreeGoddess
<<If you try something new in a restaurant and don't like it, do you
finish the plate anyway because you paid for it? If you're full, do
you keep eating anyway, because you paid for it?>>
[Absolutely. Yes. I don't believe in wasting anything.]
Pamela Sorooshiantafti
<<If you try something new in a restaurant and don't like it, do you
finish the plate anyway because you paid for it? If you're full, do
you keep eating anyway, because you paid for it?>>
[Absolutely. Yes. I don't believe in wasting anything.] >>
Sounds like you don't like to admit having made a mistake maybe?
A gift you might give your son is the ability to say, "I blew it that time." It is quite a useful ability to have!! <G>
It sounds, though, like it might be difficult for him to admit to you that he simply messed up and though something would be cool, but it turned out he didn't feel like doing it after all.
OR - maybe there were underlying reasons he thought he wanted to do it - maybe he was trying to please you and hoped that once it was in front of him he'd feel more motivated, but he doesn't and now he might be feeling embarrassed or defensive about saying so.
-pam
finish the plate anyway because you paid for it? If you're full, do
you keep eating anyway, because you paid for it?>>
[Absolutely. Yes. I don't believe in wasting anything.] >>
Sounds like you don't like to admit having made a mistake maybe?
A gift you might give your son is the ability to say, "I blew it that time." It is quite a useful ability to have!! <G>
It sounds, though, like it might be difficult for him to admit to you that he simply messed up and though something would be cool, but it turned out he didn't feel like doing it after all.
OR - maybe there were underlying reasons he thought he wanted to do it - maybe he was trying to please you and hoped that once it was in front of him he'd feel more motivated, but he doesn't and now he might be feeling embarrassed or defensive about saying so.
-pam
Fetteroll
on 9/1/03 1:24 AM, Pamela Sorooshiantafti at pamsoroosh@... wrote:
When we want our kids to make the decisions we would and they know we'll be
disappointed if they choose differently we've put up a road block between us
and them. If they only feel comfortable telling us what we want to hear what
do they do with the stuff we don't want to hear? They can not talk about it.
(It sounds like he's doing that now. He can't tell you he doesn't like the
course because he knows you'd be disappointed in him for not sticking it out
or having made a bad decision.) Or they can tell friends. Or they can lie.
Or they can pretend.
We're lying to ourselves if we think we can *make* them want what we want,
think like we think, value what we value. We can create an emotional
environment so they feel the most comfortable option is to *pretend* they
are what we want them to be. And that can give us false feedback that they
are taking on our values.
That doesn't mean we have no influence, that we should just give up, though!
We can *live* our values joyfully and talk about why we feel those values
are important *to us* (not why *they* should think they're important). They
trust us and love us and they'll take seriously what we value if we present
it as *our* values rather than how we want them to be.
We can talk to them about how something is making us feel rather than
bringing down the law on their heads with "Here's the problem and here's
what you need to do to fix it."
And our feelings are an area we need to examine. All our feelings feel
legitimate! ;-) But sometimes we're basing feelings on limitations that
exist only in our heads, like how clean the house "needs" to be. I think
that's where this list is so valuable. The people here make us question what
we think is right and true and necessary and we can see things in ways we
wouldn't have thought to on our own :-)
Joyce
> It sounds, though, like it might be difficult for him to admit to you that heThat's a good point.
> simply messed up and though something would be cool, but it turned out he
> didn't feel like doing it after all.
When we want our kids to make the decisions we would and they know we'll be
disappointed if they choose differently we've put up a road block between us
and them. If they only feel comfortable telling us what we want to hear what
do they do with the stuff we don't want to hear? They can not talk about it.
(It sounds like he's doing that now. He can't tell you he doesn't like the
course because he knows you'd be disappointed in him for not sticking it out
or having made a bad decision.) Or they can tell friends. Or they can lie.
Or they can pretend.
We're lying to ourselves if we think we can *make* them want what we want,
think like we think, value what we value. We can create an emotional
environment so they feel the most comfortable option is to *pretend* they
are what we want them to be. And that can give us false feedback that they
are taking on our values.
That doesn't mean we have no influence, that we should just give up, though!
We can *live* our values joyfully and talk about why we feel those values
are important *to us* (not why *they* should think they're important). They
trust us and love us and they'll take seriously what we value if we present
it as *our* values rather than how we want them to be.
We can talk to them about how something is making us feel rather than
bringing down the law on their heads with "Here's the problem and here's
what you need to do to fix it."
And our feelings are an area we need to examine. All our feelings feel
legitimate! ;-) But sometimes we're basing feelings on limitations that
exist only in our heads, like how clean the house "needs" to be. I think
that's where this list is so valuable. The people here make us question what
we think is right and true and necessary and we can see things in ways we
wouldn't have thought to on our own :-)
Joyce
Bill & Diane
> ...If you're full, doI truly believe, and this is my motto: "It's not less wasted on your hips." If you don't want it and don't need it, you're not only wasting IT by eating it, you're actively damaging your body and quality of life by eating it.
> you keep eating anyway, because you paid for it?>>
>
> [Absolutely. Yes. I don't believe in wasting anything.] >>
:-) Diane
Shannon
Lol! Thanks Sandra. I did finally figure it out once I saw the link to her
photos and then looked at 'em. I felt pretty silly after I figured it out.
:o)
Shannon Buckley
Mom to Connor 3-15-97, Carsten born at home 4-27-99/5-19-00 and Quinn born
at home 8-08-02
-----Original Message-----
From: SandraDodd@... [mailto:SandraDodd@...]
Sent: Sunday, August 31, 2003 1:03 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-Discussion] Re: Photo Album from Shannon: Enjoy my
online photos
In a message dated 8/31/03 1:52:45 PM, davenshan@... writes:
<< I put my hesfes piccies on photo thingy but can't get it to share
with the group. How do I do that? >>
Something to do with hedgehogs.
(HesFes is a big homeschooling campout they have in England every year.
Piccies is like "pix," slang. Piccies are to pix as telly is to TV.
Photo Thingy, some online photo site, I guess.)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
photos and then looked at 'em. I felt pretty silly after I figured it out.
:o)
Shannon Buckley
Mom to Connor 3-15-97, Carsten born at home 4-27-99/5-19-00 and Quinn born
at home 8-08-02
-----Original Message-----
From: SandraDodd@... [mailto:SandraDodd@...]
Sent: Sunday, August 31, 2003 1:03 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-Discussion] Re: Photo Album from Shannon: Enjoy my
online photos
In a message dated 8/31/03 1:52:45 PM, davenshan@... writes:
<< I put my hesfes piccies on photo thingy but can't get it to share
with the group. How do I do that? >>
Something to do with hedgehogs.
(HesFes is a big homeschooling campout they have in England every year.
Piccies is like "pix," slang. Piccies are to pix as telly is to TV.
Photo Thingy, some online photo site, I guess.)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]