Heidi

Hi

You might remember that my youngest, Katie, is a "late starting
reader" whose lateness in reading has been something of a worry to
me, but not as much recently (since researching the subject)

Okay. She has made friends with the lady who runs the concession
stand at the swimming pool. In the course of their visits, Katie
mentioned she doesn't read yet, which worried the concession lady.
Don't get me wrong: I think she is just trying to help, and with my
permission, introduced me to a phonics teacher. (I like phonics.
Please don't jump me on this.) So I visited with the phonics teacher,
and thought her phonics program was pretty impressive (maybe I like
phonics because I like analyzing things, breaking things down to
minute details...maybe that's it...)

The phonics teacher told me that she tutors adults. 18 to 68 year
olds who haven't ever learned to read.

So, I know what this list would think of pushing the reading w/the
phonics program, no matter HOW much I like it <G> This is what you
would say "She'll pick up the reading. Our kids all picked up reading
without formal reading instruction." "Don't panic" "Quite Stressing"
and words much like these.

Actually, I trust that it will happen with Katie, and in fact am
seeing a little bit already, as she reads once in awhile, single
words or short phrases, without prompting from anyone.

However, what about these adults who have never learned? If reading
is picked up freely, without lessons, why would some get to adulthood
unable to read? Pressure? Wrong teaching methods (the phonics lady's
answer, btw.)? This woman was hesitant to use labels...she wasn't
willing to accept "dyslexia" as a common problem, believing that
phonics instruction would eliminate 99% of "dyslexia" problems.

What I'm trying to say is, she wasn't your typical "Find a problem
and fix it" type. She is just interested in people knowing how to
read, and frustrated that the school system doesn't teach English
phonically, seeing as how English is an alphabetic system. (as
opposed to pictographic)...which I agree with. Written English is
break-downable...letters, syllables, words...

anyways.

We won't be buying the system, I'm almost sure, unless it be to
receive the training and me become a neighborhood reading tutor for
extra cash! LOL

but what about these adults who can't read? how did that happen, if
reading is inevitable, lessons or no lessons?

:)

HeidiC

joanna514

> but what about these adults who can't read? how did that happen, if
> reading is inevitable, lessons or no lessons?
>
> :)
>
> HeidiC

Maybe they were pushed into it too early. Maybe they put up a huge
wall of resistance after being shamed and made to feel stupid and it
got thicker through the years.
Maybe no one ever valued reading in their lives.
Maybe they were too busy avoiding abuse to give it much time.
Maybe they had horrible teachers that couldn't see beyond "just one
way to learn", and gave up before even getting started.
Maybe they started believing that they were stupid or "slow" and
accepted it and gave up.
There are a multitute of reasons.
I have never heard of a child in a home where reading is a part of
their every day existance; looked at as enjoyable and beneficial,
where the child is respected and valued and trusted, and that child
never learning to read.

Joanna

Fetteroll

on 8/29/03 11:20 AM, Heidi at bunsofaluminum60@... wrote:

> but what about these adults who can't read? how did that happen, if
> reading is inevitable, lessons or no lessons?

Reading is inevitable in a nuturing atmosphere where the person sees a need
to read.

Adult non-readers are almost universally schooled and may come from homes
where reading wasn't valued or was looked down on.

The single biggest factor I believe in kids not reading is pressure to read
too early. They pick up that they are dumb because they can't do what
"everyone else" can. So many decide they're too dumb to read or, to protect
their self-esteem, that reading itself is dumb.

Teachers, even specialists in a particular field of learning, are experts
*only* on schooled kids who have school goals to meet by a specific age.
They don't realize that those kids aren't natural kids. They don't realize
that school is a huge contributing factor in the children's behavior because
school, like oxygen, is apparently universal. They have no idea what a
natural child is like.

Joyce

[email protected]

In a message dated 8-29-2003 9:29:27 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
bunsofaluminum60@... writes:

> but what about these adults who can't read? how did that happen, if
> reading is inevitable, lessons or no lessons?
>

I agree with the list Joanna gave :) and want to add:
What about the people for whom the accepted *system of teaching* at the time
did not work? I was fortunate to learn to read at a time when *Whole
Language* was popular, I was able to combine sight words AND phonics, which worked
great for *me.* I know the pendulum has swung aaaallll the way over to a
*Phonics Only* approach as of late, and as I don't see English as a phonetic language
(unlike Spanish, for example), this approach would not work for me ~ the
woman who claimed to really enjoy "Choppin's" music (I had only *heard* the name
Chopin, never read it, so I had no idea this word meant "Show-pan"), as an
adult, in front of other adult educators. Had I been a child, the humiliation
alone would have stopped my desire to speak out. There are so many examples of
this in our hodgepodge language, I think it is a disservice to children, or
people of any size, to expect them to know when to apply phonics and when not to,
if that is all they're offered.

(scooting my soap box off to the side <G>)

I think, too, that children *do* learn what is important for them in their
lives at that moment. I'm sure the illiterate adults have amazing talents
(albeit survival talents for some) that replaced the need for or the time for
learning to read. My dad quit school in 6th grade. His writing and reading are
awful, they were not valued in his community, but his storytelling is amazing!
I'll fill out his paperwork for him, as long as he continues to talk :)

diana,
The wackiest widow westriver...
"Education- compulsory schooling, compulsory learning- is a tyranny and a
crime against the human mind and spirit.  Let all those escape it who can, any
way they can."  John Holt


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 8/29/2003 11:29:25 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
bunsofaluminum60@... writes:
but what about these adults who can't read? how did that happen, if
reading is inevitable, lessons or no lessons?
Those adults went to SCHOOL!

Reading is inevitable if it's valued and if NOT-YET-reading is not shamed.

~Kelly


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

hollyfurgason

> However, what about these adults who have never learned? If reading
> is picked up freely, without lessons, why would some get to
adulthood
> unable to read? Pressure? Wrong teaching methods (the phonics
lady's
> answer, btw.)? This woman was hesitant to use labels...she wasn't
> willing to accept "dyslexia" as a common problem, believing that
> phonics instruction would eliminate 99% of "dyslexia" problems.

It's because they're stuck in school! School is one of the most
intellectually sterile environments there is. There is no one-on-
one, no real life reading opportunities and no stimulation. Even
phonics can fail in the classroom.

Holly

2 COOL 4 SCHOOL
Unschooling T-Shirts
http://www.cafepress.com/2cool4school

[email protected]

On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 04:03:21 -0000 "hollyfurgason"
<unschooler@...> writes:
> Even phonics can fail in the classroom.
>

*Even* phonics?

dar

hollyfurgason

Yes, *even* phonics, the Holy Grail of literacy. :-)

Holly (mom to four untaught late readers)

--- In [email protected], freeform@j... wrote:
>
> On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 04:03:21 -0000 "hollyfurgason"
> <unschooler@s...> writes:
> > Even phonics can fail in the classroom.
> >
>
> *Even* phonics?
>
> dar

hollyfurgason

This is a rough draft of an article I'm writing for the HUG web site
that might be of interest. I might add that I taught various foreign
languages through interaction to children for 4 years and I was the
director of the MetLife Learning Center at a Boys and Girls Club
where one of my responsibilities was to tutor the ps kids who were
having problems with reading. That just strengthened by belief in
unschooling!

Reading Acquisition

I don't know how my children learned to read. I certainly
didn't teach them in the traditional sense nor did I look closely
enough at the process to see exactly what was happening as they were
learning. As an unschooler, someone who trusts in a child's ability
to learn, I just know that at three different ages my older children
began to read.

Now my fourth and youngest child is learning to read. As I
observe her, I realize that she is also progressing without
anyone "teaching" her. When I began noticing how she was learning to
read, I didn't have a grasp of or a word for the whole process. I
toyed with different terms and phrases such as "discovering reading"
but none of these seemed right. I finally found the word I needed
quite by accident.

As I was searching for quotes that demonstrated how children
acquire their spoken language, I found a study that described the
interaction involved with acquiring language. The process was exactly
like the process I was observing in my daughter as she began to
read. She was "acquiring" reading. And why not? Reading is simply
written language.

We don't need to "teach" our babies to talk. Human beings,
barring any great disability, are "hard wired" for language. Grammar
isn't taught by understanding rules and memorizing exceptions. Verbs
don't have to be conjugated in any tense. If we were to try to teach
children their primary language in this way, language acquisition
would undoubtedly be stunted. Language, including rules of grammar
and the meaning of words, is assimilated as children interact with
people who are using spoken language.

My experience has led me to believe that reading, just like
speaking, is an innate ability of human beings. Reading begins when
the level of mental and physical development is reached that allows
the assimilation of written language rather than any specific
instruction the child is given as long they are exposed to a literate
environment. Instruction in reading may at times hinder this natural
process making reading seem difficult. Children learn to read
despite, rather than because of, instruction.

Although children cannot learn to read if they are isolated from
reading, they do learn to read by interaction with others. Educators
already know that reading to a child will help guarantee reading
success. They attribute this to the example that the parent is
setting. But could it possibly be that this reading time, even
before the child starts "learning" to read, is the foundation for the
interaction necessary for reading acquisition?

So how does a child "acquire" reading through interaction?
There are many ways and one of the problems with "teaching" reading
is that some of these methods get pushed to the side. Allowing
children access to adults who will read to them, answer their
questions and support them in their endeavors will cover all the
bases of reading acquisition.

These are some of the processes that I have noticed as I've
observed my daughter:

Asking what a word says. This is not unlike the "look-see"
method that has fallen out of favor though it is less formal. It
does, however, have its merits. Every parent has been asked by their
child what a word says. If by listening to whole sentences, children
can grasp the rules of grammar then there are also ways to start to
grasp the rules of reading by being told what a word says. I have
never made my children sound out words when they asked what a word
was. Many times they have repeated a word slowly after being told,
following the letters as they say the word. This actually seems a
very pleasurable activity for them and goes against conventional
beliefs- the word is read and then the child sounds it out on their
own.

Asking what sound a letter makes. This is informal phonics and
also has a place in reading acquisition. No one can deny that the
letters correspond with sounds and that those sounds are the clue to
the meaning of what is written. It is when we only concentrate on
letters that we don't allow children to learn the exceptions
naturally. Children seem more interested in words than letters when
they begin exploring written language. This is just the opposite of
how reading through phonics is taught but it makes more sense. Words
have meaning; letters do not. As children search out meaning they
are going to look for the method that brings that meaning into focus.

Reading what a child already knows. Children often read through
a book that they've memorized because someone else has read it to
them over and over. I watched as my children read through their
scripts for the many plays they did and, even though the words were
completely memorized, they read slowly, sounding out the words and
absorbing the rules of reading. Sometimes they would ask for help
with a word that they were stuck on even though the entire passage
was memorized.

Real life reading. Much of the way we use writing in real life
is not in book form. Shopping lists, quick notes to tell someone we
love them, the entertaining comics in the newspaper or phone messages
are all good examples. Our society is a literate one and a child who
is allowed a fulltime place in the real world will be surrounded by
positive and useful reading experiences. ***Unfortunately, the
school classroom is one of the most literarily sterile environments
there is. Perhaps this explains why there is a problem with teaching
reading in the schools.***

Writing. Children have a strong urge to communicate. They love
to their write names and their friend's names as well other words
that have meaning to them. By giving them plenty of writing tools
and paper they will explore written language all on their own.
Through this process, the whole reason behind written language
becomes obvious.

Treating reading mistakes positively. An observation by one
linguist struck me as interesting. Adults tend to accept or treat
positively mistakes that young children make in speech. One of the
sentences that was used as an example was "There's a tree-knocker
outside." When a small child makes this mistake we will either let
is pass ("Oh, yes there is!") because the important part of this
communication is the excitement of a bird and the name doesn't matter
or we will use the word properly ("Oh, yes! A woodpecker.") to set a
good example without correcting the child's speech. I have always
done the same with my children as they read to me. The mistakes
weren't as important as the words they read correctly. Frequently,
as they progressed through the story, their mistake became apparent
to them and they corrected it themselves.

My children are by no means the only ones I know who have been
allowed to learn to read. Based on my experiences with dozens of
children who were not "taught" to read yet became fluent readers, I
have found that the age at which this innate ability comes into play
to vary widely. I was reading at the age of four even though I had
not received any formal instruction. My children have all become
readers at ages varying from six to 11 years old. Just as babies
begin to walk and talk at different ages, children will learn to read
at different times.

The former governor of my state, now president of the country,
declared that all children will be reading at the age of eight but
doesn't mean that those children will be capable of reading. To
declare such nonsense will only frustrate children and teachers as
well as create more problems that add to the myth that learning to
read is a difficult process.

[email protected]

Holly,

That reading article is pretty cool!
When it's posted, please send us the link. I'd like to link it from my
reading-collection page.

For anyone new here, it's this: http://sandradodd.com/reading

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 8/30/2003 2:22:10 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
unschooler@... writes:
>>My children are by no means the only ones I know who have been
allowed to learn to read.<<

Really nice article, Holly. This was my favorite line: "children...who have
been allowed to learn to read". I like that a lot!

~Kelly



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Julie Solich

Really nice article, Holly. This was my favorite line: "children...who have
been allowed to learn to read". I like that a lot!

~Kelly

I was just thinking this morning as Mia (4 yod) was showing me her
'writing' in her journal, that I have no desire to be intrusive in her
aquisition of the written word.

Both my boys have had two or more years of phonics, narration and
copywork, so I am enjoying watching Mia discover language on her own terms.
It's fascinating. I am finding too that because I'm not interfering and
taking over, she is sharing so many of her discoveries with me and asking me
to show her things.

It makes me realize how closed she has been to me in the past and I'm just
so thankful for the closeness that we have now. It's precious.

Julie

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hollyfurgason

Thanks! I'll let you know when it's up but it may be a while. Now
that I know how to do more with graphics and have domain name
(houstonunschoolesgroup.org), I'm redoing the whole HUG site.

Holly

2 COOL 4 SCHOOL
Unschooling T-Shirts
http://www.cafepress.com/2cool4school

--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
> Holly,
>
> That reading article is pretty cool!
> When it's posted, please send us the link. I'd like to link it from
my
> reading-collection page.
>
> For anyone new here, it's this: http://sandradodd.com/reading
>
> Sandra