natural learning
Ren Allen
"But "natural" in of itself conjures up the idea that no outside
influences
were needed to produce the resulting behaviour or in this case
reading."
Um...why would the term "natural" equal NO outside influences?
That is a strange conclusion to draw from someone saying reading
happens
naturally.
I am honestly baffled by unschoolers that are arguing against the
fact that
reading is a natural process...I wonder how long they've been
unschooling.
Natural does not mean learning happens in a vacuum. It means human
are naturally
adaptable and have a STRONG desire to learn what is around them. It
is natural
for caregivers of a child to show and assist and be generally
nurturing in most
societies. The innate ability to learn means most all things that a
child is
surrounded by will be naturally picked up.
One of the many definitions of "natural" in my dictionary is:
Pertaining to or resulting from INHERENT nature.
It is inherent for human beings to learn. If we accept that, then
saying reading
will happen naturally in an unschooling environment saying reading
is natural.
Perhaps those that are coming up with off the wall exceptions to
natural
reading, could just accept that for the purposes of unschooling
discussion, we
all agree that we're talking about "natural" in relation to
unschooling!
I can't believe it has to be explained that natural learning does not
happen in
the absence of learning materials. That's a big "doh" for everyone at
this list. We all KNOW that learning can't happen in a void. But
then, even a
child left in the wild, with wolves is learning....just not the
things that our
culture would value.
NO outside influences? How is that even possible?
Ren
influences
were needed to produce the resulting behaviour or in this case
reading."
Um...why would the term "natural" equal NO outside influences?
That is a strange conclusion to draw from someone saying reading
happens
naturally.
I am honestly baffled by unschoolers that are arguing against the
fact that
reading is a natural process...I wonder how long they've been
unschooling.
Natural does not mean learning happens in a vacuum. It means human
are naturally
adaptable and have a STRONG desire to learn what is around them. It
is natural
for caregivers of a child to show and assist and be generally
nurturing in most
societies. The innate ability to learn means most all things that a
child is
surrounded by will be naturally picked up.
One of the many definitions of "natural" in my dictionary is:
Pertaining to or resulting from INHERENT nature.
It is inherent for human beings to learn. If we accept that, then
saying reading
will happen naturally in an unschooling environment saying reading
is natural.
Perhaps those that are coming up with off the wall exceptions to
natural
reading, could just accept that for the purposes of unschooling
discussion, we
all agree that we're talking about "natural" in relation to
unschooling!
I can't believe it has to be explained that natural learning does not
happen in
the absence of learning materials. That's a big "doh" for everyone at
this list. We all KNOW that learning can't happen in a void. But
then, even a
child left in the wild, with wolves is learning....just not the
things that our
culture would value.
NO outside influences? How is that even possible?
Ren
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/13/2003 6:53:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
starsuncloud@... writes:
This is the Unschooling-Disgusting List (see, I don't NEED
"Unschoolingdotcomedy"! <G>), NOT AlwaysLearning---not everyone here "gets" it---so there WILL
be these questions and concerns! Very few "doh"s here---there are MANY that
don't know about learning ! Our job is to get them AWAY from that saying into
"doh"! <g>
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
starsuncloud@... writes:
> I can't believe it has to be explained that natural learning does notRen,
> happen in
> the absence of learning materials. That's a big "doh" for everyone at
> this list. We all KNOW that learning can't happen in a void.
This is the Unschooling-Disgusting List (see, I don't NEED
"Unschoolingdotcomedy"! <G>), NOT AlwaysLearning---not everyone here "gets" it---so there WILL
be these questions and concerns! Very few "doh"s here---there are MANY that
don't know about learning ! Our job is to get them AWAY from that saying into
"doh"! <g>
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ren Allen
"This is the Unschooling-Disgusting List (see, I don't NEED
"Unschoolingdotcomedy"! <G>), NOT AlwaysLearning---not everyone
here "gets"
it---so there WILL
be these questions and concerns! "
You have NO idea Kelly...that NAME!! Bwaaahhahahahahahaaaaa
I do understand that there will be many questions about philosophy
and practice...bring it on! I welcome honest seeking.
But do you really think anyone would be researching unschooling
without the knowledge that learning needs materials, interest,
PEOPLE?? I can't even fathom anyone believing THAT! And yet, some of
the arguement about "Natural learning" seems to suggest that natural
means MAGIC. Wham, bam, it's in the brain. NO exposure to ideas, no
dialogue, no presence necessary.
Natural doesn't equal "happening without input" it means that it
unfolds without outside forces pushing. Without coercion. It happens
because the learner wants the learning and has materials available to
get what they need.
Ren, who believes deeply in what a famous free thinker named Galileo
once said:
"You cannot teach a man anything, you can only help him to find it
within himself."
"Unschoolingdotcomedy"! <G>), NOT AlwaysLearning---not everyone
here "gets"
it---so there WILL
be these questions and concerns! "
You have NO idea Kelly...that NAME!! Bwaaahhahahahahahaaaaa
I do understand that there will be many questions about philosophy
and practice...bring it on! I welcome honest seeking.
But do you really think anyone would be researching unschooling
without the knowledge that learning needs materials, interest,
PEOPLE?? I can't even fathom anyone believing THAT! And yet, some of
the arguement about "Natural learning" seems to suggest that natural
means MAGIC. Wham, bam, it's in the brain. NO exposure to ideas, no
dialogue, no presence necessary.
Natural doesn't equal "happening without input" it means that it
unfolds without outside forces pushing. Without coercion. It happens
because the learner wants the learning and has materials available to
get what they need.
Ren, who believes deeply in what a famous free thinker named Galileo
once said:
"You cannot teach a man anything, you can only help him to find it
within himself."
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/14/2003 12:23:00 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
starsuncloud@... writes:
and then comes here, then I *do* think they may have other ideas about
unschooling and natural learning rambling around in the old noggin'. Not to mention
someone who *just* found unschooling HERE.
We're the radicals, remember? <g>
So I don't think that everyone coming here has been researching,
necessarily---or researching in the "right" places. <g> They may have *just* discovered us
and our radical ways! It's hard for many to get past that schooly
brainwashing that we all require teachers to learn anything!
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
starsuncloud@... writes:
> But do you really think anyone would be researching unschoolingBut we're not the only list. If someone has been at another list for a while
> without the knowledge that learning needs materials, interest,
> PEOPLE?? I can't even fathom anyone believing THAT!
and then comes here, then I *do* think they may have other ideas about
unschooling and natural learning rambling around in the old noggin'. Not to mention
someone who *just* found unschooling HERE.
We're the radicals, remember? <g>
So I don't think that everyone coming here has been researching,
necessarily---or researching in the "right" places. <g> They may have *just* discovered us
and our radical ways! It's hard for many to get past that schooly
brainwashing that we all require teachers to learn anything!
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Fetteroll
on 8/14/03 7:40 AM, kbcdlovejo@... at kbcdlovejo@... wrote:
because someone calls themselves an unschooler doesn't mean they're using
the word the same as other people who call themselves unschoolers.
Joyce
> In a message dated 8/14/2003 12:23:00 AM Eastern Daylight Time,Yes, the word unschooling doesn't mean the same thing to everyone. Just
> starsuncloud@... writes:
>> But do you really think anyone would be researching unschooling
>> without the knowledge that learning needs materials, interest,
>> PEOPLE?? I can't even fathom anyone believing THAT!
>
> But we're not the only list. If someone has been at another list for a while
> and then comes here, then I *do* think they may have other ideas about
> unschooling and natural learning rambling around in the old noggin'. Not to
> mention someone who *just* found unschooling HERE.
because someone calls themselves an unschooler doesn't mean they're using
the word the same as other people who call themselves unschoolers.
Joyce
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/14/03 5:41:20 AM, kbcdlovejo@... writes:
<< It's hard for many to get past that schooly
brainwashing that we all require teachers to learn anything!
Make it stop.
What did you mean?
Sandra
<< It's hard for many to get past that schooly
brainwashing that we all require teachers to learn anything!
>>This can swim!
Make it stop.
What did you mean?
Sandra
Deniz Martinez
--- In [email protected], kbcdlovejo@a... wrote:
unschooling groups, and you guys are not the most "radical" bunch
that I've had the pleasure of mingling with, LOL!
This group is fond of saying things like "you can't say you're
unschooling except for math", which is all good and well--but then
there are other groups which will take that one step further and
say "you can't say you're unschooling except for religion", meaning,
you can't say that you are truly allowing your children complete
intellectual freedom if you are indoctrinating them in a certain
faith. (Wasn't Holt an atheist?)
I'm not trying to open a can of worms here, and I really don't have
interest in debating the issue here--I'm just saying that I highly
doubt that everyone on this list agrees with the above assertion,
because this is an inclusive all-faith list, right? So then, who's
the most "radical"? Who cares? Why does unschooling have to be a
contest?
Deniz
> In a message dated 8/14/2003 12:23:00 AM Eastern Daylight Time,I hate to break it to you, but I've been in and on and around lots of
> starsuncloud@n... writes:
> But we're not the only list. If someone has been at another list
> for a while and then comes here, then I *do* think they may have
> other ideas about unschooling and natural learning rambling around
> in the old noggin'. Not to mention someone who *just* found
> unschooling HERE.
>
> We're the radicals, remember? <g>
>
> So I don't think that everyone coming here has been researching,
> necessarily---or researching in the "right" places. <g> They may
> have *just* discovered us and our radical ways! It's hard for many
> to get past that schooly brainwashing that we all require teachers
> to learn anything!
>
> ~Kelly
unschooling groups, and you guys are not the most "radical" bunch
that I've had the pleasure of mingling with, LOL!
This group is fond of saying things like "you can't say you're
unschooling except for math", which is all good and well--but then
there are other groups which will take that one step further and
say "you can't say you're unschooling except for religion", meaning,
you can't say that you are truly allowing your children complete
intellectual freedom if you are indoctrinating them in a certain
faith. (Wasn't Holt an atheist?)
I'm not trying to open a can of worms here, and I really don't have
interest in debating the issue here--I'm just saying that I highly
doubt that everyone on this list agrees with the above assertion,
because this is an inclusive all-faith list, right? So then, who's
the most "radical"? Who cares? Why does unschooling have to be a
contest?
Deniz
Jon and Rue Kream
>>but thenthere are other groups which will take that one step further and
say "you can't say you're unschooling except for religion",
**Which other groups? ~Rue
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
cris trainor
Deniz wrote:
curious...
Deniz could you share locations of other "more radical" lists than this one?
I love lurking about and hearing stories about folks pushing the
envelope...
off list would be okay with me if others object--there was rather a fracas
the last time a link to another list was shared <VBG>...
cris
...who will be in SC next week
_________________________________________________________________
Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*.
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>I hate to break it to you, but I've been in and on and around lots ofI'm not interested in who's the most radical--I love it here--but I AM
>unschooling groups, and you guys are not the most "radical" bunch
>that I've had the pleasure of mingling with, LOL!
>
>This group is fond of saying things like "you can't say you're
>unschooling except for math", which is all good and well--but then
>there are other groups which will take that one step further and
>say "you can't say you're unschooling except for religion", meaning,
>you can't say that you are truly allowing your children complete
>intellectual freedom if you are indoctrinating them in a certain
>faith. (Wasn't Holt an atheist?)
>
>I'm not trying to open a can of worms here, and I really don't have
>interest in debating the issue here--I'm just saying that I highly
>doubt that everyone on this list agrees with the above assertion,
>because this is an inclusive all-faith list, right? So then, who's
>the most "radical"? Who cares? Why does unschooling have to be a
>contest?
curious...
Deniz could you share locations of other "more radical" lists than this one?
I love lurking about and hearing stories about folks pushing the
envelope...
off list would be okay with me if others object--there was rather a fracas
the last time a link to another list was shared <VBG>...
cris
...who will be in SC next week
_________________________________________________________________
Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*.
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/14/2003 11:53:30 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:
Aw, 'cuz I wanna WIN!!!!!!
Okay...we're Unitarian Universalists, so the goal is to get the kid to figure
out his own spiritual path. Plus we're a gay family, AND we have his dad
living in the apartment downstairs.
Oh, please, I really wanna be the most radical! LOL
Kathryn, who's probably less radical than bizarre, despite her best efforts
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected] writes:
> I'm not trying to open a can of worms here, and I really don't haveheehee
> interest in debating the issue here--I'm just saying that I highly
> doubt that everyone on this list agrees with the above assertion,
> because this is an inclusive all-faith list, right? So then, who's
> the most "radical"? Who cares? Why does unschooling have to be a
> contest?
>
Aw, 'cuz I wanna WIN!!!!!!
Okay...we're Unitarian Universalists, so the goal is to get the kid to figure
out his own spiritual path. Plus we're a gay family, AND we have his dad
living in the apartment downstairs.
Oh, please, I really wanna be the most radical! LOL
Kathryn, who's probably less radical than bizarre, despite her best efforts
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/14/03 11:53:06 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
denizmartinez@... writes:
Pam G.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
denizmartinez@... writes:
> --but thenI believe that you will find many of us here do hold that belief though. LOL
> there are other groups which will take that one step further and
> say "you can't say you're unschooling except for religion", meaning,
> you can't say that you are truly allowing your children complete
> intellectual freedom if you are indoctrinating them in a certain
> faith. (Wasn't Holt an atheist?)
>
>
Pam G.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ren
Kathryn, who's probably less radical than bizarre, despite her best efforts
ANd don't forget...really, really friggin' FUNNY!
Ren
ANd don't forget...really, really friggin' FUNNY!
Ren
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/15/03 9:44:44 AM, genant2@... writes:
<< you can't say that you are truly allowing your children complete
I've read my kids Bible stories, looked up things in the Bible and read to
them or handed it straight to them (Marty, some stuff in Revelation, when he was
playing an end-of-world scenario D&D-type game and was asking nosy questions
about the apocalypse <g>). When Holly fell so in love with Joseph and the....
Dreamcoat, I read her the whole of Joseph's life from the Bible. It's a
really great story.
I've read to them and told them things from other religions too.
When they asked me (each separately when he or she came to wonder) "Who was
the first person on this planet?" I told them Adam and Eve, and evolution, and
said some believe one and some believe the other.
<<--but then
days a year. That's okay, but they're still dividing learning from life.
I'm not crazy about religious homeschoolers, but IF a family is thoroughly
involved in religion, bigtime, how can that NOT be live as they know it? Their
kids WILL learn that religion.
My kids were immersed in the SCA. We didn't TELL them about the SCA, it was
just there, all the time, with its annual rhythm, and its campouts and winter
feasts and costumes and alternate "persona" names. As each was old enough to
make alternate plans, we've never forced them to go to any SCA stuff.
They've rarely objected, though, and lately they want to go more than we do!
I'm rambling, but there are realities of families. Some race cars or breed
rabbits. Are they indoctrinating their children in race car lore or rabbit
knowledge?
Sandra
<< you can't say that you are truly allowing your children complete
> intellectual freedom if you are indoctrinating them in a certainI agree too.
> faith >>
I've read my kids Bible stories, looked up things in the Bible and read to
them or handed it straight to them (Marty, some stuff in Revelation, when he was
playing an end-of-world scenario D&D-type game and was asking nosy questions
about the apocalypse <g>). When Holly fell so in love with Joseph and the....
Dreamcoat, I read her the whole of Joseph's life from the Bible. It's a
really great story.
I've read to them and told them things from other religions too.
When they asked me (each separately when he or she came to wonder) "Who was
the first person on this planet?" I told them Adam and Eve, and evolution, and
said some believe one and some believe the other.
<<--but then
> there are other groups which will take that one step further andI know there are unschoolers who see it as a thing to do six hours a day 180
> say "you can't say you're unschooling except for religion", >>
days a year. That's okay, but they're still dividing learning from life.
I'm not crazy about religious homeschoolers, but IF a family is thoroughly
involved in religion, bigtime, how can that NOT be live as they know it? Their
kids WILL learn that religion.
My kids were immersed in the SCA. We didn't TELL them about the SCA, it was
just there, all the time, with its annual rhythm, and its campouts and winter
feasts and costumes and alternate "persona" names. As each was old enough to
make alternate plans, we've never forced them to go to any SCA stuff.
They've rarely objected, though, and lately they want to go more than we do!
I'm rambling, but there are realities of families. Some race cars or breed
rabbits. Are they indoctrinating their children in race car lore or rabbit
knowledge?
Sandra
coyote's corner
We're dealing w/ this very issue as we speak. Brianna & I are preparing to go to a powwow - a powwow she doesn't really enjoy. Frankly - we need the money - so I feel we should go.
She's trying to make the best of it - but it's becoming more & more apparent that she doesn't enjoy camping out - she's a "hotel or home" kid right now.
As we speak, I'm preparing to speak w/ her again....we don't have to leave this day - we can go up for one day rather than two; we can examine other options....
This - the powwow trail is part of her life. I can't change that. We've had some great fun, gone to some great places - but Brianna doesn't want to do this anymore.
And that's very okay. Her opinion is worth as much as mine. I'm ready to say - heck let's stay here --
Janis
She's trying to make the best of it - but it's becoming more & more apparent that she doesn't enjoy camping out - she's a "hotel or home" kid right now.
As we speak, I'm preparing to speak w/ her again....we don't have to leave this day - we can go up for one day rather than two; we can examine other options....
This - the powwow trail is part of her life. I can't change that. We've had some great fun, gone to some great places - but Brianna doesn't want to do this anymore.
And that's very okay. Her opinion is worth as much as mine. I'm ready to say - heck let's stay here --
Janis
----- Original Message -----
From: SandraDodd@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, August 15, 2003 12:25 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-Discussion] Re: natural learning
In a message dated 8/15/03 9:44:44 AM, genant2@... writes:
<< you can't say that you are truly allowing your children complete
> intellectual freedom if you are indoctrinating them in a certain
> faith >>
I agree too.
I've read my kids Bible stories, looked up things in the Bible and read to
them or handed it straight to them (Marty, some stuff in Revelation, when he was
playing an end-of-world scenario D&D-type game and was asking nosy questions
about the apocalypse <g>). When Holly fell so in love with Joseph and the....
Dreamcoat, I read her the whole of Joseph's life from the Bible. It's a
really great story.
I've read to them and told them things from other religions too.
When they asked me (each separately when he or she came to wonder) "Who was
the first person on this planet?" I told them Adam and Eve, and evolution, and
said some believe one and some believe the other.
<<--but then
> there are other groups which will take that one step further and
> say "you can't say you're unschooling except for religion", >>
I know there are unschoolers who see it as a thing to do six hours a day 180
days a year. That's okay, but they're still dividing learning from life.
I'm not crazy about religious homeschoolers, but IF a family is thoroughly
involved in religion, bigtime, how can that NOT be live as they know it? Their
kids WILL learn that religion.
My kids were immersed in the SCA. We didn't TELL them about the SCA, it was
just there, all the time, with its annual rhythm, and its campouts and winter
feasts and costumes and alternate "persona" names. As each was old enough to
make alternate plans, we've never forced them to go to any SCA stuff.
They've rarely objected, though, and lately they want to go more than we do!
I'm rambling, but there are realities of families. Some race cars or breed
rabbits. Are they indoctrinating their children in race car lore or rabbit
knowledge?
Sandra
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Deniz Martinez
--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
passion through the use of rewards and/or punishments, then yes,
that's indoctrination.
I understand what you are saying here, but we both know the reality
of the situation is that many religious "unschooling" families do
indeed coerce their children in one way or another when it comes to
religious matters. Somebody posted earlier the Holt dictum of "if
there's no question, there's no teaching"--so what do we call it when
parents takes it upon themselves to teach their children the Ten
Commandments or the Five Pillars before the children are mature
enough to seriously wonder about morality laws for themselves? Other
parents who fervently argue that children should have the freedom to
do what they want with their own free time will still think nothing
of requiring their children to attend church once a week.
From my atheistic viewpoint, I don't think there should be a
religious exception to the "no coercion" rule of unschooling. If a
mathematician who insists that his child study an arithmetic book
cannot be said to be truly unschooling, then neither can the theist
who insists that his child study a holy book. Both are equally guilty
in my eyes of coercing the child and meddling with his intellectual
freedom.
Deniz
> I'm not crazy about religious homeschoolers, but IF a family isWell, if the child is coerced to participate in the family's chosen
> thoroughly involved in religion, bigtime, how can that NOT be live
> as they know it? Their kids WILL learn that religion.
> I'm rambling, but there are realities of families. Some race cars
> or breed rabbits. Are they indoctrinating their children in race
> car lore or rabbit knowledge?
>
> Sandra
passion through the use of rewards and/or punishments, then yes,
that's indoctrination.
I understand what you are saying here, but we both know the reality
of the situation is that many religious "unschooling" families do
indeed coerce their children in one way or another when it comes to
religious matters. Somebody posted earlier the Holt dictum of "if
there's no question, there's no teaching"--so what do we call it when
parents takes it upon themselves to teach their children the Ten
Commandments or the Five Pillars before the children are mature
enough to seriously wonder about morality laws for themselves? Other
parents who fervently argue that children should have the freedom to
do what they want with their own free time will still think nothing
of requiring their children to attend church once a week.
From my atheistic viewpoint, I don't think there should be a
religious exception to the "no coercion" rule of unschooling. If a
mathematician who insists that his child study an arithmetic book
cannot be said to be truly unschooling, then neither can the theist
who insists that his child study a holy book. Both are equally guilty
in my eyes of coercing the child and meddling with his intellectual
freedom.
Deniz
[email protected]
genant2@... writes:
touchy subject, I've held off.
My son is picking our brains occasionally. My hubby's agnostic, I'm pagan.
It's wierd not raising him Christian the way I was raised. But I've always
been interested in lots of religions so I have lots of info to give him when he
wants it. But the one thing I've made clear to him is that everybody has
their own version of spiritual truth, and that not all of them can be correct,
and yet they all are :-)
No wonder he's not that interested. lol
~Aimee
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> --but thenThis is something I've always wanted to bring up, but religion is such a
> >there are other groups which will take that one step further and
> >say "you can't say you're unschooling except for religion", meaning,
> >you can't say that you are truly allowing your children complete
> >intellectual freedom if you are indoctrinating them in a certain
> >faith. (Wasn't Holt an atheist?)
> >
> >
>
> I believe that you will find many of us here do hold that belief though. LOL
> Pam G.
touchy subject, I've held off.
My son is picking our brains occasionally. My hubby's agnostic, I'm pagan.
It's wierd not raising him Christian the way I was raised. But I've always
been interested in lots of religions so I have lots of info to give him when he
wants it. But the one thing I've made clear to him is that everybody has
their own version of spiritual truth, and that not all of them can be correct,
and yet they all are :-)
No wonder he's not that interested. lol
~Aimee
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Susan Fuerst
>>but we both know the realityof the situation is that many religious "unschooling" families do
indeed coerce their children in one way or another when it comes to
religious matters. <<<
I think this assumption certainly needs questioning. I have been on
this list off and on for several years. Seems to me that most of the
time when that topic arises, unschooling families do indeed, more often
than not, "unschool" areas of faith.
I am Catholic. I attend services regularly, but my husband chooses not
to. My children attend with me occasionally, but often do not, They
choose certain functions to attend or not. They are in no way coerced
into believing anything.
I also share stories and viewpoints of other faiths. They will choose
their path and I chose mine. What they see in my example is part of
their experience. I value my choices and I value their choices and
insight in faith matters.
We have had a lot of this in the past year as we faced the deaths of
both my parents as well as the loss of a pregnancy. I remember Dar
writing about some things she and her daughter discussed when death
issues arose in her experience. She is not Catholic, but I think we
had similar discussions and approaches with our children about death and
afterlife and faith.
There are practical matters, like Sandra mentioned.....her children
went to SCA when they were too young to have a viable option. When they
had a viable option, they had a choice.
If one doesn't think shoving math or science or history into a child is
possible, why would they do that with religion?
Susan
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/15/2003 4:32:49 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:
Kathryn
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected] writes:
> Kathryn, who's probably less radical than bizarre, despite her best effortsAnything you need or want Ren? Anything...
>
>
> ANd don't forget...really, really friggin' FUNNY!
>
>
Kathryn
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Hartley
----------
don't think you're going to find a lot of argument on this list that
"Unschooling except for religion" is unschooling, any more than "Unschooling
except for math" is.
"educational" and "non-educational" areas. I don't think that was in
dispute. The original claim (unless I've got my posts muddled, quite
possible) is that the occupants of this list aren't as radical as some
unschooling list, and then the religion factor was thrown in to illustrate
this argument, as a point of proof.
It doesn't seem to illustrate anything, though, about the general posting
population of this list.
enforced, tested, plotted out, etc., it's not unschooling. If it's under the
same general style as me "teaching" my daughters to cook (i.e, cooking with
them as they express an interest in doing so) it's still unschooling.
I breed rabbits. I've mentioned that a few thousand times in the past few
days, I know. Sorry. My point here is that in a household where the parents
are animal-rights activists, breeding cute show bunnies is going to get an
entirely different slant from the parents than it is in this household. It
is impossible (and a bad idea) to try to hide our beliefs and ideals from
our children. There is a large difference between living my life as I see
fit vs. forcing my children to my every viewpoint.
do this. And when someone says they DO do this, it's cause for quite a
debate here.
list. That was the point originally.
Pam
>From: [email protected]I'm sorry to disappoint your low expectations of our Radicalness ;) but I
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: [Unschooling-Discussion] Digest Number 3923
>Date: Fri, Aug 15, 2003, 1:31 PM
>
> Well, if the child is coerced to participate in the family's chosen
> passion through the use of rewards and/or punishments, then yes,
> that's indoctrination.
don't think you're going to find a lot of argument on this list that
"Unschooling except for religion" is unschooling, any more than "Unschooling
except for math" is.
> I understand what you are saying here, but we both know the realityMany who claim to be unschooling coerce their children in all sorts of
> of the situation is that many religious "unschooling" families do
> indeed coerce their children in one way or another when it comes to
> religious matters.
"educational" and "non-educational" areas. I don't think that was in
dispute. The original claim (unless I've got my posts muddled, quite
possible) is that the occupants of this list aren't as radical as some
unschooling list, and then the religion factor was thrown in to illustrate
this argument, as a point of proof.
It doesn't seem to illustrate anything, though, about the general posting
population of this list.
> Somebody posted earlier the Holt dictum of "ifTo sound like BC, it depends on what your definition of "teach" is. If it's
> there's no question, there's no teaching"--so what do we call it when
> parents takes it upon themselves to teach their children the Ten
> Commandments or the Five Pillars before the children are mature
> enough to seriously wonder about morality laws for themselves?
enforced, tested, plotted out, etc., it's not unschooling. If it's under the
same general style as me "teaching" my daughters to cook (i.e, cooking with
them as they express an interest in doing so) it's still unschooling.
I breed rabbits. I've mentioned that a few thousand times in the past few
days, I know. Sorry. My point here is that in a household where the parents
are animal-rights activists, breeding cute show bunnies is going to get an
entirely different slant from the parents than it is in this household. It
is impossible (and a bad idea) to try to hide our beliefs and ideals from
our children. There is a large difference between living my life as I see
fit vs. forcing my children to my every viewpoint.
> OtherAgain, I am not finding the posters in this discussion, or on this list, who
> parents who fervently argue that children should have the freedom to
> do what they want with their own free time will still think nothing
> of requiring their children to attend church once a week.
do this. And when someone says they DO do this, it's cause for quite a
debate here.
> From my atheistic viewpoint, I don't think there should be aYou are, if you'll pardon my warped humor, preaching to the choir on this
> religious exception to the "no coercion" rule of unschooling. If a
> mathematician who insists that his child study an arithmetic book
> cannot be said to be truly unschooling, then neither can the theist
> who insists that his child study a holy book. Both are equally guilty
> in my eyes of coercing the child and meddling with his intellectual
> freedom.
list. That was the point originally.
Pam
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/15/03 2:47:03 PM, fuerst@... writes:
<< If one doesn't think shoving math or science or history into a child is
possible, why would they do that with religion? >>
Because they think Jesus is coming before their kids are college age so
history and science don't really matter, but salvation does.
Sandra
<< If one doesn't think shoving math or science or history into a child is
possible, why would they do that with religion? >>
Because they think Jesus is coming before their kids are college age so
history and science don't really matter, but salvation does.
Sandra
[email protected]
> playing an end-of-world scenario D&D-type gameremember what that was? Sounds like fun....
~Aimee
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
jana@... writes:
I think it is more likely that Alex will grow up pagan, rather than
Christian, even tho he's got a bible in his room, and I have one on my shelf, just from
that 'indoctoration" I'm going to know more about pagan ideas than any
others, he's gonna be more familiar with that. I hope that won't influence his
available choices when he tries to find the spiritual path/s that's best for him.
But teaching something as truth, when it's not, is where I hit the wall, and
altho I try very hard to not judge families who do that, I have a definite
problem with it. Some family members in particular. That kid is going to grow
up and find out that what's been taught to him is not a universal truth, like
he's being led to believe, but instead, his parents' personal, spiritual truth.
It's just not intellectually honest.
*sigh*
~Aimee
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I'm rambling, but there are realities of families. Some race cars or breedLOL, good examples.
>
> rabbits. Are they indoctrinating their children in race car lore or
> rabbit
> knowledge?
>
> Sandra
I think it is more likely that Alex will grow up pagan, rather than
Christian, even tho he's got a bible in his room, and I have one on my shelf, just from
that 'indoctoration" I'm going to know more about pagan ideas than any
others, he's gonna be more familiar with that. I hope that won't influence his
available choices when he tries to find the spiritual path/s that's best for him.
But teaching something as truth, when it's not, is where I hit the wall, and
altho I try very hard to not judge families who do that, I have a definite
problem with it. Some family members in particular. That kid is going to grow
up and find out that what's been taught to him is not a universal truth, like
he's being led to believe, but instead, his parents' personal, spiritual truth.
It's just not intellectually honest.
*sigh*
~Aimee
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/15/2003 3:29:16 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
AimeeL73@... writes:
learn, is how to be a Mormon, or Catholic, or Buddhist, or Baptist...
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
AimeeL73@... writes:
> I hope that won't influence hisSome people change religions half a dozen times. That's one thing adults CAN
> available choices when he tries to find the spiritual path/s that's best for
> him.
learn, is how to be a Mormon, or Catholic, or Buddhist, or Baptist...
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Stepheny Cappel
This has become an interesting thread... a few of my thoughts here. If a family has a bunch of books laying around are they not indoctrinating reading is good? Also a child most of the time seems to want to please people they love. Then they come to an age where they question what others think say do etc... coming to decisions on their own. No matter what? Albeit easier to come to their own decisions being unschooled, not as many struggles... because why? It is not in cement? Steph
----- Original Message -----
From: Deniz Martinez
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, August 15, 2003 2:43 PM
Subject: [Unschooling-Discussion] Re: natural learning
--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
> I'm not crazy about religious homeschoolers, but IF a family is
> thoroughly involved in religion, bigtime, how can that NOT be live
> as they know it? Their kids WILL learn that religion.
> I'm rambling, but there are realities of families. Some race cars
> or breed rabbits. Are they indoctrinating their children in race
> car lore or rabbit knowledge?
>
> Sandra
Well, if the child is coerced to participate in the family's chosen
passion through the use of rewards and/or punishments, then yes,
that's indoctrination.
I understand what you are saying here, but we both know the reality
of the situation is that many religious "unschooling" families do
indeed coerce their children in one way or another when it comes to
religious matters. Somebody posted earlier the Holt dictum of "if
there's no question, there's no teaching"--so what do we call it when
parents takes it upon themselves to teach their children the Ten
Commandments or the Five Pillars before the children are mature
enough to seriously wonder about morality laws for themselves? Other
parents who fervently argue that children should have the freedom to
do what they want with their own free time will still think nothing
of requiring their children to attend church once a week.
From my atheistic viewpoint, I don't think there should be a
religious exception to the "no coercion" rule of unschooling. If a
mathematician who insists that his child study an arithmetic book
cannot be said to be truly unschooling, then neither can the theist
who insists that his child study a holy book. Both are equally guilty
in my eyes of coercing the child and meddling with his intellectual
freedom.
Deniz
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
kayb85
--- In [email protected], "Stepheny Cappel"
<stephc62@b...> wrote:
indoctrinating reading is good?
I think it depends. Some parents don't really enjoy reading, or
don't really enjoy reading certain types of books but feel guilty
about it because society says that books are good for kids. So they
have books sitting around anyway because they hope their kids will
pick them up and read them. I used to be guilty of doing that with
certain kinds of children's picture books. I didn't buy them because
I thought my kids would like them or because I liked them, but
because I thought I had to get my kids to like them because they were
good for them. That is a kind of coercion.
But if parents have books around because they delight in reading
good books and even buy special books that they think would delight
their kids, and then their kids pick up on the idea that books are
fun things, then it's just kids picking things up naturally from
their environment.
Sheila
<stephc62@b...> wrote:
> This has become an interesting thread... a few of my thoughtshere. If a family has a bunch of books laying around are they not
indoctrinating reading is good?
I think it depends. Some parents don't really enjoy reading, or
don't really enjoy reading certain types of books but feel guilty
about it because society says that books are good for kids. So they
have books sitting around anyway because they hope their kids will
pick them up and read them. I used to be guilty of doing that with
certain kinds of children's picture books. I didn't buy them because
I thought my kids would like them or because I liked them, but
because I thought I had to get my kids to like them because they were
good for them. That is a kind of coercion.
But if parents have books around because they delight in reading
good books and even buy special books that they think would delight
their kids, and then their kids pick up on the idea that books are
fun things, then it's just kids picking things up naturally from
their environment.
Sheila
Ren
"If a child has opportunities with written language and doesn't read by
14, it is probably due to roadblocks put in the child's path....perhaps
even the unnecessary "concern" of a parent. "
Not true.
I'm sure Sandra has the link to the story about Carol's kids that learned to read at 15, happily and with no problems. Unschooled their whole lives I believe.
Ren
14, it is probably due to roadblocks put in the child's path....perhaps
even the unnecessary "concern" of a parent. "
Not true.
I'm sure Sandra has the link to the story about Carol's kids that learned to read at 15, happily and with no problems. Unschooled their whole lives I believe.
Ren
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/15/2003 10:40:25 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
starsuncloud@... writes:
Hard to say true/not true about a qualified statement like "probably."
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
starsuncloud@... writes:
> "If a child has opportunities with written language and doesn't read by"Probably" is okay to be true, isn't it?
> 14, it is probably due to roadblocks put in the child's path....perhaps
> even the unnecessary "concern" of a parent. "
>
> Not true.
>
Hard to say true/not true about a qualified statement like "probably."
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
> >"If a child has opportunities with written language and doesn't read byI don't remember who said what at this point, but the first time I read it, I
> >14, it is probably due to roadblocks put in the child's path....perhaps
> >even the unnecessary "concern" of a parent. "
> >
> >Not true.
> >
>
>
> "Probably" is okay to be true, isn't it?
>
> Hard to say true/not true about a qualified statement like "probably."
>
> Sandra
>
read "possibly" instead of "probably." And while "probably" is a qualified
statement in that it can go either way, it does take on the meaning of something
being more likely than not. So maybe I read "possibly" instead, because I
didn't see the correlation between late reading and road blocks to getting there
as "probable," but indeed, "possible."
Rhonda
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
stephc62@... writes:
I think this is why it's so good to be aware that, yes, most kids want
to please their parents, and so I think you must be very clear with yourself
about expectations, and be very clear with your kids that you support them
even if their ideas, and interests are not similar to your own.
I don't think it happens too often where the kids are just radically
different than the parents....I think of Alex Keaton on Family Ties, lol.
Those flower children having a dyed in the wool capitalist Republican, I know
that's fiction, but they were good at supporting him even tho they disagreed with
him.
I think unschooling allows, sometimes even triggers, constant
questioning, and that kind of discernment happens so early, and so often, that it's not
a shock at teenagerhood. That's my working theory so far, btw, my son is 9.
But I've always seen adolescence as a chemical independence, it's almost
like the body is forcing the division between parent and child. But for an
unschooler, for example, that's not a shock, it's just another process and stage,
and it's one they are well prepared to handle.
I think my 9 year old right now is going thru one of those stages now,
a dry run of independence, a rehearsal if you will. Most parents would try
to squash it because it seems disrespectful or just plain too early, but if I
expect him to be independent when he's grown up, I can't squash this stage.
Duh. It's part of the process he's been going thru his whole life.
~Aimee
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> If a family has a bunch of books laying around are they not indoctrinatingUgh, MORE questions!! I haven't answered my own yet, lol
> reading is good? Also a child most of the time seems to want to please
> people they love. Then they come to an age where they question what others think
> say do etc... coming to decisions on their own. No matter what? Albeit
> easier to come to their own decisions being unschooled, not as many struggles...
> because why? It is not in cement? Steph
I think this is why it's so good to be aware that, yes, most kids want
to please their parents, and so I think you must be very clear with yourself
about expectations, and be very clear with your kids that you support them
even if their ideas, and interests are not similar to your own.
I don't think it happens too often where the kids are just radically
different than the parents....I think of Alex Keaton on Family Ties, lol.
Those flower children having a dyed in the wool capitalist Republican, I know
that's fiction, but they were good at supporting him even tho they disagreed with
him.
I think unschooling allows, sometimes even triggers, constant
questioning, and that kind of discernment happens so early, and so often, that it's not
a shock at teenagerhood. That's my working theory so far, btw, my son is 9.
But I've always seen adolescence as a chemical independence, it's almost
like the body is forcing the division between parent and child. But for an
unschooler, for example, that's not a shock, it's just another process and stage,
and it's one they are well prepared to handle.
I think my 9 year old right now is going thru one of those stages now,
a dry run of independence, a rehearsal if you will. Most parents would try
to squash it because it seems disrespectful or just plain too early, but if I
expect him to be independent when he's grown up, I can't squash this stage.
Duh. It's part of the process he's been going thru his whole life.
~Aimee
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ren
"Probably" is okay to be true, isn't it?
Hard to say true/not true about a qualified statement like
"probably."
Yes. What I SHOULD have said was "not always true". It sounded like the person thought if a child didn't read naturally by 14, it was due to negative pressures. Which can happen.
So I should have said "not always the case" instead of "not true".
:)
Ren
Hard to say true/not true about a qualified statement like
"probably."
Yes. What I SHOULD have said was "not always true". It sounded like the person thought if a child didn't read naturally by 14, it was due to negative pressures. Which can happen.
So I should have said "not always the case" instead of "not true".
:)
Ren