Re: Cliques
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/9/2003 10:28:02 AM Eastern Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:
have ever been associated with has, at one time or another, been accused of
being cliqueish. This includes feminist groups, churches, lists, etc., etc.
I think it's hard to plunge into a new place, and that it's easy to feel like
an outsider. Similarly, when you've been around a place a while, it's easy to
get caught up with people who have become friends, sometimes accidentally
excluding new people. New people in any group don't know the old stories or the
old jokes or acroynms.
I often feel like an outsider because some of the demographics of my life are
very different from others on this list. Probably everyone else feels that
way too. Doesn't mean that I >am< an outsider, or that anyone here has ever
tried in any way to exclude me.
Nancy, what I hear you saying is that some responses to people feel harsh.
Sometimes (but I think very rarely) that might be true. Remember...ain't no
perfect people here. Mostly what I think really happens, though, is that
particularly people who've been unschooling for a while feel VERY protective of it, and
are very directive in their responses to people who question it.
But if not here, where? This list is for unschooling. For me, if someone came
in and said "We're unschooling except for math," but got it when we explained
it doesn't work that way I'd feel much more patient. We might be able to
point out all the learning their kids do and help them, if they wanted to, to
become real unschoolers. If they didn't want to, but still were interested in
hanging out to learn how to be a gentler parent, or how to support learning in
general, they'd probably get a lot out of it.
But if they keep arguing that using math books is the only way, then
continued to insist that they're still unschoolers, then people will get annoyed, and
will stop being patient. Intentions mean a lot.
So, Nancy, I want to ask you: can you think of ways that we can make people
who are new who genuinely want to talk and learn about unschooling feel
welcome? Not by watering down the philosophy of the list, which is a given, but
something else?
We can always do better. But the point of the list has to be respected.
Kathryn
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected] writes:
> I do post friendly stuff and try to get in on discussions that interest me.One thing I have noticed for many years is that every group or organization I
>
> How to be less clique-ish? I don't have all the answers I am just pointing
> out something I see and others have seen. I also see the very people who are
> the most insular (since the word clique is offensive to many) as being the
> most defensive about it. One of the hallmarks of this group is that people
> ask new people to question everything. If we are supposed to question our
> motives, thoughts, feelings and actions why are people getting so defensive
> about new members pointing out something they see??
>
>
have ever been associated with has, at one time or another, been accused of
being cliqueish. This includes feminist groups, churches, lists, etc., etc.
I think it's hard to plunge into a new place, and that it's easy to feel like
an outsider. Similarly, when you've been around a place a while, it's easy to
get caught up with people who have become friends, sometimes accidentally
excluding new people. New people in any group don't know the old stories or the
old jokes or acroynms.
I often feel like an outsider because some of the demographics of my life are
very different from others on this list. Probably everyone else feels that
way too. Doesn't mean that I >am< an outsider, or that anyone here has ever
tried in any way to exclude me.
Nancy, what I hear you saying is that some responses to people feel harsh.
Sometimes (but I think very rarely) that might be true. Remember...ain't no
perfect people here. Mostly what I think really happens, though, is that
particularly people who've been unschooling for a while feel VERY protective of it, and
are very directive in their responses to people who question it.
But if not here, where? This list is for unschooling. For me, if someone came
in and said "We're unschooling except for math," but got it when we explained
it doesn't work that way I'd feel much more patient. We might be able to
point out all the learning their kids do and help them, if they wanted to, to
become real unschoolers. If they didn't want to, but still were interested in
hanging out to learn how to be a gentler parent, or how to support learning in
general, they'd probably get a lot out of it.
But if they keep arguing that using math books is the only way, then
continued to insist that they're still unschoolers, then people will get annoyed, and
will stop being patient. Intentions mean a lot.
So, Nancy, I want to ask you: can you think of ways that we can make people
who are new who genuinely want to talk and learn about unschooling feel
welcome? Not by watering down the philosophy of the list, which is a given, but
something else?
We can always do better. But the point of the list has to be respected.
Kathryn
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/9/03 1:26:09 PM, KathrynJB@... writes:
<< One thing I have noticed for many years is that every group or
organization I
have ever been associated with has, at one time or another, been accused of
being cliqueish. This includes feminist groups, churches, lists, etc., etc. >>
I've noticed that the people who make that accusation have not chosen a suave
way to be accepted.
Insulting the people who are doing the work isn't the best way to be accepted.
We have an SCA family again in the limelight here. They will go a little
while being just honestly helpful, and then one or both of the parents will go on
a tirade about how they would LIKE to be helpful and involved, but people
won't LET them and WHAT do people have to do to be ACCEPTED!?
The short answer is not to throw those little fits. It's like one step
forward and three steps back for them.
And that's not an answer a clique voted on, that's just how it is.
I'm not getting along with one of my neighbors. Now another neighbor came to
discuss it with me, WHOLLY on my side. If that neighbor doesn't get softer
and nicer soon, he's likely to have several families taking some kind of group
action.
If he were honestly nicer for weeks and months, we'd forget all about it and
things would be better for everybody involved.
If, though, he takes a moment along in there to tell me that he knows people
are talking about him when he's not there and that we SUCK, it would dissolve
much progress.
Nobody here can change that reality. It's older than unschooling and bigger
than the internet.
Sandra
<< One thing I have noticed for many years is that every group or
organization I
have ever been associated with has, at one time or another, been accused of
being cliqueish. This includes feminist groups, churches, lists, etc., etc. >>
I've noticed that the people who make that accusation have not chosen a suave
way to be accepted.
Insulting the people who are doing the work isn't the best way to be accepted.
We have an SCA family again in the limelight here. They will go a little
while being just honestly helpful, and then one or both of the parents will go on
a tirade about how they would LIKE to be helpful and involved, but people
won't LET them and WHAT do people have to do to be ACCEPTED!?
The short answer is not to throw those little fits. It's like one step
forward and three steps back for them.
And that's not an answer a clique voted on, that's just how it is.
I'm not getting along with one of my neighbors. Now another neighbor came to
discuss it with me, WHOLLY on my side. If that neighbor doesn't get softer
and nicer soon, he's likely to have several families taking some kind of group
action.
If he were honestly nicer for weeks and months, we'd forget all about it and
things would be better for everybody involved.
If, though, he takes a moment along in there to tell me that he knows people
are talking about him when he's not there and that we SUCK, it would dissolve
much progress.
Nobody here can change that reality. It's older than unschooling and bigger
than the internet.
Sandra
coyote's corner
SCA??
What is that??
Janis
What is that??
Janis
----- Original Message -----
From: SandraDodd@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, August 09, 2003 4:49 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-Discussion] Re: Cliques
In a message dated 8/9/03 1:26:09 PM, KathrynJB@... writes:
<< One thing I have noticed for many years is that every group or
organization I
have ever been associated with has, at one time or another, been accused of
being cliqueish. This includes feminist groups, churches, lists, etc., etc. >>
I've noticed that the people who make that accusation have not chosen a suave
way to be accepted.
Insulting the people who are doing the work isn't the best way to be accepted.
We have an SCA family again in the limelight here. They will go a little
while being just honestly helpful, and then one or both of the parents will go on
a tirade about how they would LIKE to be helpful and involved, but people
won't LET them and WHAT do people have to do to be ACCEPTED!?
The short answer is not to throw those little fits. It's like one step
forward and three steps back for them.
And that's not an answer a clique voted on, that's just how it is.
I'm not getting along with one of my neighbors. Now another neighbor came to
discuss it with me, WHOLLY on my side. If that neighbor doesn't get softer
and nicer soon, he's likely to have several families taking some kind of group
action.
If he were honestly nicer for weeks and months, we'd forget all about it and
things would be better for everybody involved.
If, though, he takes a moment along in there to tell me that he knows people
are talking about him when he's not there and that we SUCK, it would dissolve
much progress.
Nobody here can change that reality. It's older than unschooling and bigger
than the internet.
Sandra
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list owner, Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address an email to:
[email protected]
Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/9/03 5:54:24 PM, jana@... writes:
<< SCA??
What is that?? >>
Society For Creative Anachronism
medieval/Renaissance studies club
http://www.rencentral.com/archives/Adults_love_SCA.shtml
article by me, years ago
(links there at the bottom)
Sandra
<< SCA??
What is that?? >>
Society For Creative Anachronism
medieval/Renaissance studies club
http://www.rencentral.com/archives/Adults_love_SCA.shtml
article by me, years ago
(links there at the bottom)
Sandra
coyote's corner
Right!!
Thanks, I would have puzzled over this for a good while.
Janis
Thanks, I would have puzzled over this for a good while.
Janis
----- Original Message -----
From: SandraDodd@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2003 6:04 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-Discussion] Re: Cliques
In a message dated 8/9/03 5:54:24 PM, jana@... writes:
<< SCA??
What is that?? >>
Society For Creative Anachronism
medieval/Renaissance studies club
http://www.rencentral.com/archives/Adults_love_SCA.shtml
article by me, years ago
(links there at the bottom)
Sandra
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list owner, Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address an email to:
[email protected]
Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
eeoh
> Don't focus on the "general group" but instead, focus onSomeone posted that she would like examples of what is meant by
> the few posters who really resonate with your view of life or style
> of posting. TALK to them in your posts. Email them. Use their
> names, ask about their children, discuss the similarities you
> share. Take it one or two posters at a time. Pay attention to
> inside jokes and learn what they are.
>
>
>
> Julie
"cliques" on this list, and , well, the inside jokes and focusing on a
few posters in messages reminds me of clique-ish behavior.
There are--I've read --hundreds of members on this list, and for two or
three people to always be posting to each other in particular and expect
everyone else to not mind their "inside jokes" just seems rude. I enjoy
reading about Unschoolers lives and all the interesting things their
kids have been doing, and I appreciate the time and effort taken to get
it down in e-mail. I have never liked to be on the outside of a private
joke. Some of us, dedicated unschoolers or just learning, are never
going to "get " the inside jokes because we don't go back ten years on
this list. Please remember that there are a lot of people out here in
"U-D" land.
E.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/12/03 5:43:08 AM, elizabethogi@... writes:
<< I have never liked to be on the outside of a private
joke. Some of us, dedicated unschoolers or just learning, are never
going to "get " the inside jokes because we don't go back ten years on
this list. >>
The list isn't NEARLY ten years old, and inside-joke-getting exists in every
family, neighborhood, club, church, group... Instead of being willing to wait
until you get the jokes, it doesn't help at ALL to say "YOU ALL STOP HAVING
FUN because you're having more fun than I am."
Nobody is having fun for meanness here.
Sandra
<< I have never liked to be on the outside of a private
joke. Some of us, dedicated unschoolers or just learning, are never
going to "get " the inside jokes because we don't go back ten years on
this list. >>
The list isn't NEARLY ten years old, and inside-joke-getting exists in every
family, neighborhood, club, church, group... Instead of being willing to wait
until you get the jokes, it doesn't help at ALL to say "YOU ALL STOP HAVING
FUN because you're having more fun than I am."
Nobody is having fun for meanness here.
Sandra
Pamela Sorooshian
On Tuesday, August 12, 2003, at 04:41 AM, eeoh wrote:
Again, hard to know what you're seeing if you don't point to something
specific.
-pam
> There are--I've read --hundreds of members on this list, and for twoExamples, please?
> or
> three people to always be posting to each other in particular and
> expect
> everyone else to not mind their "inside jokes" just seems rude.
Again, hard to know what you're seeing if you don't point to something
specific.
-pam
Stepheny Cappel
I happen to enjoy the little jokes between people, big deal, I'm not involved, they can still bring a smile to my face... and I'm thankful for that... and one day the longer I am on this discussion group I may be involved in one or two of these! I am thoroughly enjoying this group the way it is, can't wait to meet some of the people on this list, it will be "way cool" to be able to put a face with a name. If I don't understand the little joke thats ok too, I just say Ok and move on. Just my two cents. Steph
----- Original Message -----
From: eeoh
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2003 7:41 AM
Subject: [Unschooling-Discussion] Cliques
> Don't focus on the "general group" but instead, focus on
> the few posters who really resonate with your view of life or style
> of posting. TALK to them in your posts. Email them. Use their
> names, ask about their children, discuss the similarities you
> share. Take it one or two posters at a time. Pay attention to
> inside jokes and learn what they are.
>
>
>
> Julie
Someone posted that she would like examples of what is meant by
"cliques" on this list, and , well, the inside jokes and focusing on a
few posters in messages reminds me of clique-ish behavior.
There are--I've read --hundreds of members on this list, and for two or
three people to always be posting to each other in particular and expect
everyone else to not mind their "inside jokes" just seems rude. I enjoy
reading about Unschoolers lives and all the interesting things their
kids have been doing, and I appreciate the time and effort taken to get
it down in e-mail. I have never liked to be on the outside of a private
joke. Some of us, dedicated unschoolers or just learning, are never
going to "get " the inside jokes because we don't go back ten years on
this list. Please remember that there are a lot of people out here in
"U-D" land.
E.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list owner, Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address an email to:
[email protected]
Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/12/03 8:48:19 AM, SandraDodd@... writes:
<< << I have never liked to be on the outside of a private
joke. Some of us, dedicated unschoolers or just learning, are never
going to "get " the inside jokes because we don't go back ten years on
this list. >> >>
Inside joke, ten years old, from another list, yesterday:
"LOL! Sandra, tell me about your medieval finger-food. Is it "Satin's"
finger-food?. The misspelling of Satin is deliberate. . . Do you guys
remember the conversations I'm referring to?"
<<OH yeah!
The evils of Halloween, and of worshipping Satin.>>
Okay, maybe only six or seven years ago. But old. And those who got the
joke were amused and those who weren't had it explained. Someone intent on
making secular unschoolers feel guilty about letting their children "celebrate
Halloween" by risking
worshipping
<< << I have never liked to be on the outside of a private
joke. Some of us, dedicated unschoolers or just learning, are never
going to "get " the inside jokes because we don't go back ten years on
this list. >> >>
Inside joke, ten years old, from another list, yesterday:
"LOL! Sandra, tell me about your medieval finger-food. Is it "Satin's"
finger-food?. The misspelling of Satin is deliberate. . . Do you guys
remember the conversations I'm referring to?"
<<OH yeah!
The evils of Halloween, and of worshipping Satin.>>
Okay, maybe only six or seven years ago. But old. And those who got the
joke were amused and those who weren't had it explained. Someone intent on
making secular unschoolers feel guilty about letting their children "celebrate
Halloween" by risking
worshipping
Kris
Watching people banter is an enjoyable part of being in a community. I
watch members of families or groups share a moment of gentle humor, I don't
have to know the history of their joke, I enjoy watching their interaction.
If I'm curious I can ask what it's about but it's fine left unstated.
Feeling "left out" is more about insecurities IMO.
Kris
watch members of families or groups share a moment of gentle humor, I don't
have to know the history of their joke, I enjoy watching their interaction.
If I'm curious I can ask what it's about but it's fine left unstated.
Feeling "left out" is more about insecurities IMO.
Kris
eeoh
> On Tuesday, August 12, 2003, at 04:41 AM, eeoh wrote:I do not have specific examples saved from my overflowing mailbox, and
>
> There are--I've read --hundreds of members on this list, and for two
> or
> three people to always be posting to each other in particular and
> expect
> everyone else to not mind their "inside jokes" just seems rude.
>
> "Examples, please?
>
> Again, hard to know what you're seeing if you don't point to something
> specific.
>
> -pam"
there may not be any--I was actually referring to the suggestion that
this type of posting be used as a way to become more bonded to the
group. And I think that it seems clique-ish and annoying for others IF
DONE OFTEN.
I am sure that constantly discussing the list dynamics might also be
annoying, so that's all I'll say on this subject.
E.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Fetteroll
on 8/13/03 4:46 AM, eeoh at elizabethogi@... wrote:
just for here. It is good to know how our behavior affects others.
But in a bigger picture way, which applies to everything we interact with,
it's helpful to recognize what we can change and what we can't. It's
frustrating to view the world -- or just a small piece of the world like
this list -- and want the world to act the way we think it should.
But if we can recognize what is in our power to change and what isn't, it
can have a profound effect on our happiness. We can let go of the
frustration that the world isn't giving us what we need and we can create
what we need for ourselves.
One thing that isn't in our power to change is how people behave. We can
tell them something bothers us but they get to choose whether to change
based on their needs.
And just because people don't change doesn't mean they're mean. It means
they see the world differently, have differnt goals and different needs.
Changing might mean they'd loose something important to them. And we may be
asking them to give us something that we don't have a right to ask of them.
For instance we shouldn't rely on the behavior of others to provide us with
emotional harmony.
If their behavior is hurtful to us we can distance ourselves from them. (Or
get the law involved if it's criminal.)
People will act in the ways that are natural to them. And it's natural for
people to joke around with each other. It's filling a need they have. We can
say, look the way you're meeting your needs isn't meeting my needs. But it
isn't right or in our power to make them change to suit our needs.
Everyone would need to agree on what "too often" means. Is one inside joke a
day too much? Or one a week? Is friendly banter not as irritating so maybe
we can have 3 jokes a day? And will we all agree on what a joke is? And what
if someone outside the "clique" jokes with someone inside? Does that count
as making people feel excluded? So that means everyone will need to read all
the posts in their inbox so they can count up the jokes (with the guidelines
we've all agreed on to decide what is and isn't a joke) to see if the days
limit has been reached before they can make a joke.
I know you think I'm making fun, but I'm not. I'm serious. It seems sensible
that someoene could just make the suggestion and everyone would know what it
means and do it. But in practice, with so many different ways of viewing the
world, different tolerances, no one is going to imagine the same scenario as
anyone else. Actually putting it into practice would turn bizarre like
above. It's why committees are so inefficient. Visions, goals, priorities
are all different. And trying to get them all working together on a single
goal is hard to do.
And this list isn't even a committee working towards a single goal. It's
1200+ people all with individual goals, trying to get what they need from
the list.
Joyce
> I was actually referring to the suggestion thatI think that's important feedback for people to have in a general way, not
> this type of posting be used as a way to become more bonded to the
> group. And I think that it seems clique-ish and annoying for others IF
> DONE OFTEN.
just for here. It is good to know how our behavior affects others.
But in a bigger picture way, which applies to everything we interact with,
it's helpful to recognize what we can change and what we can't. It's
frustrating to view the world -- or just a small piece of the world like
this list -- and want the world to act the way we think it should.
But if we can recognize what is in our power to change and what isn't, it
can have a profound effect on our happiness. We can let go of the
frustration that the world isn't giving us what we need and we can create
what we need for ourselves.
One thing that isn't in our power to change is how people behave. We can
tell them something bothers us but they get to choose whether to change
based on their needs.
And just because people don't change doesn't mean they're mean. It means
they see the world differently, have differnt goals and different needs.
Changing might mean they'd loose something important to them. And we may be
asking them to give us something that we don't have a right to ask of them.
For instance we shouldn't rely on the behavior of others to provide us with
emotional harmony.
If their behavior is hurtful to us we can distance ourselves from them. (Or
get the law involved if it's criminal.)
People will act in the ways that are natural to them. And it's natural for
people to joke around with each other. It's filling a need they have. We can
say, look the way you're meeting your needs isn't meeting my needs. But it
isn't right or in our power to make them change to suit our needs.
> And I think that it seems clique-ish and annoying for others IFThat seems so sensible. But try imagining putting that into practice.
> DONE OFTEN.
Everyone would need to agree on what "too often" means. Is one inside joke a
day too much? Or one a week? Is friendly banter not as irritating so maybe
we can have 3 jokes a day? And will we all agree on what a joke is? And what
if someone outside the "clique" jokes with someone inside? Does that count
as making people feel excluded? So that means everyone will need to read all
the posts in their inbox so they can count up the jokes (with the guidelines
we've all agreed on to decide what is and isn't a joke) to see if the days
limit has been reached before they can make a joke.
I know you think I'm making fun, but I'm not. I'm serious. It seems sensible
that someoene could just make the suggestion and everyone would know what it
means and do it. But in practice, with so many different ways of viewing the
world, different tolerances, no one is going to imagine the same scenario as
anyone else. Actually putting it into practice would turn bizarre like
above. It's why committees are so inefficient. Visions, goals, priorities
are all different. And trying to get them all working together on a single
goal is hard to do.
And this list isn't even a committee working towards a single goal. It's
1200+ people all with individual goals, trying to get what they need from
the list.
Joyce
Pamela Sorooshian
On Wednesday, August 13, 2003, at 01:46 AM, eeoh wrote:
be willing to save posts 'in the future" that exemplify what they are
talking about?
This would be truly helpful - a lot more helpful than after-the-fact
complaining without any ability to point to specifics.
I run a number of lists and I'm really interested in the future of this
kind of communication. I've got lists that are run very differently
from each other - announcement only, full moderation, moderating only
new members, free-for-all discussions, and others. I'm sincerely
interested in ideas about lists and how they work - but need specifics
to be able to really understand what people are really looking at and
responding to.
-pam
> I do not have specific examples saved from my overflowing mailbox, andExcept maybe people who do think this is or could be a problem, would
> there may not be any--I was actually referring to the suggestion that
> this type of posting be used as a way to become more bonded to the
> group. And I think that it seems clique-ish and annoying for others
> IF
> DONE OFTEN.
>
> I am sure that constantly discussing the list dynamics might also be
> annoying, so that's all I'll say on this subject.
be willing to save posts 'in the future" that exemplify what they are
talking about?
This would be truly helpful - a lot more helpful than after-the-fact
complaining without any ability to point to specifics.
I run a number of lists and I'm really interested in the future of this
kind of communication. I've got lists that are run very differently
from each other - announcement only, full moderation, moderating only
new members, free-for-all discussions, and others. I'm sincerely
interested in ideas about lists and how they work - but need specifics
to be able to really understand what people are really looking at and
responding to.
-pam
moonstarshooter
--- In [email protected], Fetteroll
<fetteroll@e...> wrote:
sums it up magnificently, not just the "clique" thread, but many
recent threads. Thanks for such thoughtfulness and insight.
Tory
<fetteroll@e...> wrote:
> And just because people don't change doesn't mean they're mean. Itmeans
> they see the world differently, have differnt goals and differentneeds.
> Changing might mean they'd loose something important to them.Absolutely wonderful post, Joyce. This particular part of it really
sums it up magnificently, not just the "clique" thread, but many
recent threads. Thanks for such thoughtfulness and insight.
Tory
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/13/2003 11:15:53 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
torywalk@... writes:
glena
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
torywalk@... writes:
> And just because people don't change doesn't mean they're mean. ItI agree but we need to apply that reasoning to everyone in the group as well.
> means
> >they see the world differently, have differnt goals and different
> needs.
> >Changing might mean they'd loose something important to them.
>
glena
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/13/03 9:34:01 AM, rubyprincesstsg@... writes:
<< > And just because people don't change doesn't mean they're mean. It
well. >>
What would be the justifiable goals and needs of people whose purpose seems
to be disruption?
Some people don't seem to need to discuss unschooling at all, but rather seem
to need to prevent others from discussing it. If that IS so important to
them that they can't change, should others be made to receive their words all the
time?
I guess there honestly IS a clique here, and it's a small group who
communicate offsides with the purpose of disruption. They would LIKE for their clique
to be larger, but it's easier to gain admirers with a loftier intent than
disruption. Still, every post that suggests that this group won't "respect" bad
arguments against unschooling seems a bid for sympathy and camaraderie.
Sandra
<< > And just because people don't change doesn't mean they're mean. It
> means<<I agree but we need to apply that reasoning to everyone in the group as
> >they see the world differently, have differnt goals and different
> needs.
> >Changing might mean they'd loose something important to them.
>
well. >>
What would be the justifiable goals and needs of people whose purpose seems
to be disruption?
Some people don't seem to need to discuss unschooling at all, but rather seem
to need to prevent others from discussing it. If that IS so important to
them that they can't change, should others be made to receive their words all the
time?
I guess there honestly IS a clique here, and it's a small group who
communicate offsides with the purpose of disruption. They would LIKE for their clique
to be larger, but it's easier to gain admirers with a loftier intent than
disruption. Still, every post that suggests that this group won't "respect" bad
arguments against unschooling seems a bid for sympathy and camaraderie.
Sandra
eeoh
O.K., I lied--one more about cliques.
with , "O.k., I need to keep to the subject of unschooling"--always a
good goal, but sometimes other interesting things pop up.
And that's why a good description for the subject line is so important!
E.
>^^^
> That seems so sensible. But try imagining putting that into practice.
> Everyone would need to agree on what "too often" means. Is one inside
> joke a
> day too much? Or one a week? Is friendly banter not as irritating so
> maybe
> we can have 3 jokes a day? And will we all agree on what a joke is?
> But in practice, with so many different ways of viewing theI see your point. But it is something that could be kept in mind, along
> world, different tolerances, no one is going to imagine the same
> scenario as
> anyone else. Actually putting it into practice would turn bizarre like
> above. It's why committees are so inefficient. Visions, goals,
> priorities
> are all different. And trying to get them all working together on a
> single
> goal is hard to do.
>
with , "O.k., I need to keep to the subject of unschooling"--always a
good goal, but sometimes other interesting things pop up.
And that's why a good description for the subject line is so important!
E.
moonstarshooter
>group as well.
> I agree but we need to apply that reasoning to everyone in the
>I have had an experience recently where I posted something in "my"
> glena
>
style of posting and it was not received well by the "group" I was
posting in. They tried to imply that my posting style was
somehow "less" than theirs. I don't see anything wrong with my style
and I have no desire to change it. **BUT** I also realized that if I
were going to continue to post in that group I would need to either
adjust my style of posting, or *expect* backlash from my posts. As a
grown up, I have chosen to mostly be quiet on that group and wait to
see if it is worth my while. And as a grown up, I also wouldn't go
to that group and complain that they should change their
overall "style" to suit me. It works for them. Great. Good for them.
I also see this as closely related to the "inside joke" issue. I
don't really think it is so much about "inside jokes" as it is styles
of humor. This group has more of a twisted, dry, sarcastic sense of
humor than your average group. That style does not appeal to
everyone, and some people don't "get it." Nothing wrong with that.
This world would be bland if we were all the same. But no one is
trying to make others feel left out just because humor of a certain
style is used. Some get it, some don't. But if I didn't get a joke,
or even a series of jokes, I certainly wouldn't get insecure about
it.
Now I'm off to swim in my finally-rid-of-ugly-green-algae pool.
Tory
marji
At 18:22 8/13/03 +0000, Tory wrote:
Marji, who did major algae time earlier this year. What a drag.
>Now I'm off to swim in my finally-rid-of-ugly-green-algae pool.Well, I can certainly relate to that!!! I always used to like green, too.
Marji, who did major algae time earlier this year. What a drag.
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/13/03 1:05:47 PM, marji@... writes:
<< Marji, who did major algae time earlier this year. >>
I saw algae once.
Not this year.
Sandra, in the dusty desert
SERIOUSLY---I carried a running garden hose around the corner of my house the
other day, and where it hit the bare ground, DUST came up. The force of the
water made dust clouds. That's not natural!!
(And what's most unnatural about it was the water hose, being on, in a desert
like that.)
But I'm starting to pack to go to South Carolina, where even paper can be
kinda damp, and there are no dust-devils and bread doesn't dry up in five minutes.
Sandra
<< Marji, who did major algae time earlier this year. >>
I saw algae once.
Not this year.
Sandra, in the dusty desert
SERIOUSLY---I carried a running garden hose around the corner of my house the
other day, and where it hit the bare ground, DUST came up. The force of the
water made dust clouds. That's not natural!!
(And what's most unnatural about it was the water hose, being on, in a desert
like that.)
But I'm starting to pack to go to South Carolina, where even paper can be
kinda damp, and there are no dust-devils and bread doesn't dry up in five minutes.
Sandra
Susan Fuerst
Glena,
I don't think you "get it" at all with this. Bottom line: THE ONLY
PERSON YOU HAVE THE POWER TO CHANGE IS YOUR SELF.
Your reply here indicates you still have some desire to change others.
I believe the bottom line I mentioned above is crucial to effective
unschooliing.
Best of luck,
Susan
well.
glena
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email
the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list
owner, Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address
an email to:
[email protected]
Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
I don't think you "get it" at all with this. Bottom line: THE ONLY
PERSON YOU HAVE THE POWER TO CHANGE IS YOUR SELF.
Your reply here indicates you still have some desire to change others.
I believe the bottom line I mentioned above is crucial to effective
unschooliing.
Best of luck,
Susan
> And just because people don't change doesn't mean they're mean. ItI agree but we need to apply that reasoning to everyone in the group as
> means
> >they see the world differently, have differnt goals and different
> needs.
> >Changing might mean they'd loose something important to them.
>
well.
glena
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email
the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list
owner, Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address
an email to:
[email protected]
Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/