Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] champagne moment...
Sonia Ulan
totally nuts? He's willing to sacrifice you baby's/child's/future
adult's health? I firmly believe that if someone is educated in the
true merits of breastfeeding there would be no "choice" in infant
nutrition. It is absolutely the most superior wonder food in existence
on the planet and no informed person could possibly deny that for their
child. It's like choosing to eat scraps from the dumpster instead of
opting for tasty, delicious and healthy food in your own well-stocked
kitchen. No one who has the choice chooses dumpster food! Not only
will nursing supply your baby with an immune system and sustain your
child even through illness (it's the perfect medicinal food when your
baby has a cold or diarrhea or is vomiting) but the health benefits last
well into adulthood. Lower rates of allergies, sensitivities, diabetes,
even cancers. This is all well documented. Babies fed ARTIFICIAL food
such as formula, or worse, COW'S MILK have higher statistics on
everything negative except maybe brain development. Which has been
well-documented for breast-fed babies: higher intelligence for the
amino acids present in breast milk. No formula can replicate that!
I'm sorry to be on this tirade but I positively see red when I see
people think there is a "choice" and usually for the sake of unimportant
and temporary situations such as convenience or lifestyle. How can any
loving parent deny their child what is clearly theirs? Boy, have the
formula companies or, dare I say it, the radical feminists, really
snowed us that much, all these years?
I'm sure I'm making a few enemies tonight with these views but 10 solid
years of research into the subject have brought me to these conclusions.
Yes, most babies will grow according to the growth charts
(interestingly-enough supplied by the formula companies) when fed by
artificial means, but most of the time we are forfeiting quality for
quantity (the pounds babies gain). People can seem to grow and gain
weight eating dumpster food too...Formula is made of "Scraps" and
by-products: leftover and sour milk processed into powders, the lowest
grades of corn syrup, coconut and palm oils (recognized poison for the
heart) and a few fake versions of vitamins. Mechanically-produced and
rarely efficiently absorbed by the system.
As I say, there is no true choice.
Sign me,
a radical-baby's-rights-defender
Ron and Stephanie wrote:
>
> Karen-
> Yep, you got it!
> here I am asking you another question about abb. words: is LLL Le Leche
> League?
> I am very interested in LLL. My dh is not convinced that I should nurse the
> next baby...
> Stephanie
>
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susan
imo sulan@... could have said, if she was interested in a hearty
discussion rather than a full blown fight: 'There ARE valid reasons for
bottlefeeding. '(quote from sulan's post) then added her personal reasons.
it's too bad you didn't express these reasons it would have helped 'expand
one's viewpoint in order to understand' (another quote from sulan's post).
then you could have politely disagreed stating that even though informed, some
people would still not chose breastfeeding and this decision does not reflect
on a person's intellect. no need to 'lower' yourself to what you see as a
transgression, there's always room for respect even though sometime it my
require 'counting to ten'.
it's hard when someone hits a nerve or rubs you the wrong way but if
understanding is what your after attack/defend posturing rarely if ever gets
one there. this issue is obviously very sensitive and understandably so. the
right to breastfeed has been a battle which is both moral ('breast are sexual'
therefore breastfeeding makes people squirm) and corporate (profits made on
formula) and women are still being criticized for making this choice.
personally i experienced this on an airplane. i had to sit next to an elderly
woman who has blatantly and verbal against me breastfeeding, even though not a
centimeter of my skin was showing at any point and my son was perfectly quiet
the entire trip. what i'm saying is that sometimes it's hard to turn off 'the
fight for your rights' stance because we breastfeeding mom's have been and
continue to be asked to compromise and breastfeeding in public is still on
very shaky ground (not so for bottlefeeding moms). from this perspective the
comment that upset 'sulan' makes sense but from the perspective of a person
who has chosen not to breastfeed, for whatever reason, i can see the
statement as insensitive and possibly argumentative.
-susan
austin, tx
Lynda wrote:
> Perhaps if you hadn't been looking for it to be addressed to you or weren't
> insecure in your beliefs, this wouldn't have offended you.
>
> But I don't get my bloomers in a twist because someone states
> opinions using generalizations about folks who don't/didn't breastfeed.
> Lynda, who is really tired of folks who go looking for arguments.
>
> ----------
> > In a message dated 4/5/00 2:36:58 AM Central Daylight Time,
> sulan@...
> > writes:
> >
> > << It is absolutely the most superior wonder food in existence
> > on the planet and no informed person could possibly deny that for their
> > child. >>
> >
> >
> > There ARE valid reasons for bottlefeeding. Perhaps one might have to be
> > willing to expand one's viewpoint in order to understand them. We should
> all
> > be familiar with that concept since we are unschoolers.
> >
susan
went back and found the post lynda commented on and it was from monkeycoop/kim
and that sulan/sonia sent the post that upset kim i've changes the names below
so it makes more sense.
-susan
susan wrote:
> good for you lynda
>
> imo kim could have said, if she was interested in a hearty
> discussion rather than a full blown fight: 'There ARE valid reasons for
> bottlefeeding. '(quote from kims's post) then added her personal reasons.
> it's too bad you didn't express these reasons it would have helped 'expand
> one's viewpoint in order to understand' (another quote from kim's post).
> then you could have politely disagreed stating that even though informed, some
> people would still not chose breastfeeding and this decision does not reflect
> on a person's intellect. no need to 'lower' yourself to what you see as a
> transgression, there's always room for respect even though sometime it my
> require 'counting to ten'.
>
> it's hard when someone hits a nerve or rubs you the wrong way but if
> understanding is what your after attack/defend posturing rarely if ever gets
> one there. this issue is obviously very sensitive and understandably so. the
> right to breastfeed has been a battle which is both moral ('breast are sexual'
> therefore breastfeeding makes people squirm) and corporate (profits made on
> formula) and women are still being criticized for making this choice.
> personally i experienced this on an airplane. i had to sit next to an elderly
> woman who has blatantly and verbal against me breastfeeding, even though not a
> centimeter of my skin was showing at any point and my son was perfectly quiet
> the entire trip. what i'm saying is that sometimes it's hard to turn off 'the
> fight for your rights' stance because we breastfeeding mom's have been and
> continue to be asked to compromise and breastfeeding in public is still on
> very shaky ground (not so for bottlefeeding moms). from this perspective the
> comment that upset kim makes sense but from the perspective of a person
> who has chosen not to breastfeed, for whatever reason, i can see the
> statement as insensitive and possibly argumentative.
>
> -susan
> austin, tx
>
> Lynda wrote:
>
> > Perhaps if you hadn't been looking for it to be addressed to you or weren't
> > insecure in your beliefs, this wouldn't have offended you.
> >
> > But I don't get my bloomers in a twist because someone states
> > opinions using generalizations about folks who don't/didn't breastfeed.
>
> > Lynda, who is really tired of folks who go looking for arguments.
> >
> > ----------
> > >
> > >
> > > << It is absolutely the most superior wonder food in existence
> > > on the planet and no informed person could possibly deny that for their
> > > child. >>-sonia
> > >
> > >
> > > There ARE valid reasons for bottlefeeding. Perhaps one might have to be
> > > willing to expand one's viewpoint in order to understand them. We should
> > all
> > > be familiar with that concept since we are unschoolers.
> > >-kim
>
susan
because there was no name at the bottom the only reference i could find was sulan... at the top of the quoted stuff on lynda's post and i assumed that was the person her comments were addressed to. after i sent my post i went to find out who had sent the post lynda was commenting on and that's when i found out it was you not sulan (sonia). anyway i then sent a revised copy of my message with the names straightened out ( kim and sonia) and it reads better, well more understandable anyway <g>, - the right quotes with the right name. sorry about that i should have not made that assumption i guess i could have referred to you a 'geez' :)
monkeycoop@... wrote:Susan,
it would have been helpful for me to state
what some of those valid reasons (for not breastfeeding) were. But that is
my whole point - it is absolutely irrelevant what they were! They are no
one's business and no one should pass judgment on my method of feeding my
child for ANY reason!
your right you most definitely do not need to defend your choices, (i think there is way too much invasion of privacy) and i for one wouldn't want you to reveal something you wanted kept private. but then why comment and get mad at someone for not understanding if you're not willing to help shed some light. my personal experiences taught me that sometimes it's hard for others to fathom something they've never experienced. for example (though i have many:) my dh is deaf. i had never met a deaf person before i met him (6 years ago this wk:) and it still, to this day, amazes me how different our worlds are and how we really can't comprehend each other's world but we accept them. it's the little things like the way he lowers the metal blinds - it sends my son and i running from the room because it's so loud:) we ask him repeatedly to try and do it quieter but it just doesn't stick because it's not his experience. or when he drops something he has no clue which direction it went in but i do because of the sound or not knowing what is happening even a foot away if your back is turned. what i've learned is that being deaf is so beyond anything i could have imaged because of all the little things i take for granted but i do try to understand things like what it was like not sharing a common language with your friends (he was mainstreamed and the only deaf person) but it still remains a mental thing for me . anyway that's why i suggested that you give reasons why some people choose not to breastfeed.Notice that I never, EVER entered into a debate about whether breastmilk is
best for babies. In fact, I stated that of course it IS best for babies.
But some felt it necessary to argue the virtues of breastmilk and, taking it
a step further, compare formula to trash from a dumpster. Why, in order to
show how good one thing is, is it necessary to state how bad another thing
is??? It's true - the dumpster comments were NOT directed solely at me. But
they definitely called into question the judgment of people who give their
children formula. The fact is, it was physically impossible for me to nurse
this baby. If I followed the "dumpster" line of thinking and refused to use
formula, then my baby would have starved. Am I making a ridiculous argument
here? Yes, of course! I wouldn't let my baby starve! But it seems to me to
be ridiculously obvious that if you can't nurse, then you use formula, and
there's absolutely no sense in dwelling on its "dumpster"-like qualities. It
doesn't do anyone any good to hear about them, and it could easily be seen
(NOT just by me, but by numerous folks on the list who have emailed me) as
inflammatory, smug, and self-satisfied.
you're right this is an extreme take on formula and imo she was out of line but this comment would make a lot more sense given to the corporate heads, formula marketers and peds. drs.I am not responding to your post in order to further this - I just wanted to make sure that argumentative statements attributed to sulan were correctly attributed to me. Fair is fair, and I'll take the rap for my own words! Thanks for your thoughts on all this. I love your posts, and look forward to more.*** KiM ***
runs with scissors
even if you were responding to further this i don't see that as a problem besides you have that right. we all want to be heard as well as understood and we all should be heard and understood! the point of my response was simple to try and find a way that your opinion could be expressed without having 'to do onto others what you felt had been onto you'. truthfully this thread has not been one i've been following very closely. though it's an interesting topic it's just not one in the forefront of my life. i hope you understand my other post i realize sonia's post was argumentative and i think she says that herself and called herself radical and imo she is - but i've read more radical views that hers <g>. ( read the 2nd one now that i've got the right name:)i understand why this upset you so much and imo it was insensitive. i know if i were not able to do something and another person said 'anyone who doesn't do such and such is an idiot', it would bother me. like having only one child i know there are lots of families, particularly hs family, which are big and some of them look down on moms with just one kid like we are not really mom's and our experience is not as valid as theirs because their doing it with x number of kids. it is kind of hurtful because some of us haven't for one reason or another had more kids. it's very invalidating but the bottom line is it's their problem and you don't owe anyone an explanation. so you keep run with them thar scissors :)
take care,
susan
austin, tx
'unity through diversity'
Sonia Ulan
Lynda wrote:
>
> Gee, this was going along in a rather adult fashion until now. The quote
> you used was not addressed to you, it was addressed to the husband of a
> list member. What you wrote is indeed what you accuse the other person
> of--flaming.
>
> Perhaps if you hadn't been looking for it to be addressed to you or weren't
> insecure in your beliefs, this wouldn't have offended you.
>
> I didn't breastfeed all of the kidlets for which I have valid medical
> reasons. But I don't get my bloomers in a twist because someone states
> opinions using generalizations about folks who don't/didn't breastfeed.
> Perhaps the quote "Get over yourself and your own opinions' should be
> applied closer to home.
>
> Lynda, who is really tired of folks who go looking for arguments.
>
> ----------
> > In a message dated 4/5/00 2:36:58 AM Central Daylight Time,
> sulan@...
> > writes:
> >
> > << It is absolutely the most superior wonder food in existence
> > on the planet and no informed person could possibly deny that for their
> > child. >>
> >
> > OK - this is what I was talking about. Tracy (a LLL leader, and a firm
> > believer in the benefits of breastfeeding) emailed me off list and asked
> > about my reasons for feeding my children the way I do. She presented her
>
> > question in a respectful, adult fashion. Because of her attitude I was
> happy
> > to respond to her. This, on the other hand, is nothing but inflammatory.
> I
> > could respond to this post by explaining some of the valid reasons for
> > bottlefeeding, but I won't because you don't deserve my consideration.
> You
> > established that with the tone of your post. Clearly you decided not to
> > honor the request that I made about keeping this kind of attitude off of
> the
> > list, or even posting about breastfeeding under the subject line
> > "breastfeeding".
> >
> > There ARE valid reasons for bottlefeeding. Perhaps one might have to be
> > willing to expand one's viewpoint in order to understand them. We should
> all
> > be familiar with that concept since we are unschoolers.
> >
> > Get over yourself and your own opinions. BTW, I was a licensed
> > breastfeeding consultant and support leader for several years and
> therefore
> > am quite familiar with all the merits of breastfeeding, so you don't need
> to
> > go there.
> >
> > Feel free to flame away - it will only further establish the fact that
> you
> > have a tremendous attitude problem and are judgmental and meddling. How
>
> > other people feed their children is NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS. You can not
> pass
> > any kind of legitimate judgment on them. I'll say it once again - get
> over
> > yourself. Nobody placed you in charge of monitoring my children's
> nutrition.
> > Geesh.
> >
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