Instinct to hit
Ren
"Instinct: Do you know that NO other animal hits its young? No other animal
punishes its young? How do humans GET this "instinct"? The instinct is
to
protect, not harm. And humans have the added plus of *creativity* that so many
refuse to use."
I hate to play devil's advocate here....cuz I love your posts Kelly, BUT, that's not entirely true ya know. :)
Have you ever seen a big cat get irritated with the antics of their youngun's? They can smack fairly hard. It's certainly not a repeated thing, like a spanking would be. But large cats (cats of any kind actually) will put their little ones in place with a good pop once in a while. I had a friend that owned big cats (cougars) so I got some up close and personal time there.
I don't think that has anything to do with human behavior though. We are hopefully more able to reason and use more tools than a Tiger!
It just all seems so obvious to me, that hitting is not an acceptable form of problem solving. We work at helping our kids gain tools so they don't hit each other, we don't accept adults hitting as normal behavior, why would it be ok for parents to hit children?
I like to think about it in adults terms. If Oom/Chris had been doing something her dh didn't like and he smacked her in front of a bunch of people that cheered, just how would THAT have felt?
Humiliating?
Destructive?
Of course!
And if the child's pants prevented any pain, then how did the hit have ANYTHING to do with the intended results (to stop him)? If it was only the humiliation, I guess the hit still didn't have to happen. And if humiliation is how you want to stop your child from doing dangerous things then you aren't going to get support for that here either.
Ren
punishes its young? How do humans GET this "instinct"? The instinct is
to
protect, not harm. And humans have the added plus of *creativity* that so many
refuse to use."
I hate to play devil's advocate here....cuz I love your posts Kelly, BUT, that's not entirely true ya know. :)
Have you ever seen a big cat get irritated with the antics of their youngun's? They can smack fairly hard. It's certainly not a repeated thing, like a spanking would be. But large cats (cats of any kind actually) will put their little ones in place with a good pop once in a while. I had a friend that owned big cats (cougars) so I got some up close and personal time there.
I don't think that has anything to do with human behavior though. We are hopefully more able to reason and use more tools than a Tiger!
It just all seems so obvious to me, that hitting is not an acceptable form of problem solving. We work at helping our kids gain tools so they don't hit each other, we don't accept adults hitting as normal behavior, why would it be ok for parents to hit children?
I like to think about it in adults terms. If Oom/Chris had been doing something her dh didn't like and he smacked her in front of a bunch of people that cheered, just how would THAT have felt?
Humiliating?
Destructive?
Of course!
And if the child's pants prevented any pain, then how did the hit have ANYTHING to do with the intended results (to stop him)? If it was only the humiliation, I guess the hit still didn't have to happen. And if humiliation is how you want to stop your child from doing dangerous things then you aren't going to get support for that here either.
Ren
jeva
Hi Ren!
Having been raised on a horse farm, I can attest to mares using quite
a bit of physical aggression with colts that get out of hand. Not
always pretty! Of course if my child had big hooves and lots of big
teeth set in a strong jaw, I may be apt to putting a stop to his
kicking and biting the horse way had I been a horse! lol! I've seen
chimps and other apes, wolves too discipline with what I'd call a
fairly violent reprimand.
These animals don't have the gift of speech though so all is conveyed
via touch and body language. It causes me to often wonder that what
appears violent to humans is not so with other species. I may see a
mare's approach to her young as violent as a human, but is it really
in the world of horses? So interesting!
Great post!
Jeva
--- In [email protected], Ren
<starsuncloud@n...> wrote:
thing, like a spanking would be. But large cats (cats of any kind
actually) will put their little ones in place with a good pop once in
a while. I had a friend that owned big cats (cougars) so I got some
up close and personal time there.
Having been raised on a horse farm, I can attest to mares using quite
a bit of physical aggression with colts that get out of hand. Not
always pretty! Of course if my child had big hooves and lots of big
teeth set in a strong jaw, I may be apt to putting a stop to his
kicking and biting the horse way had I been a horse! lol! I've seen
chimps and other apes, wolves too discipline with what I'd call a
fairly violent reprimand.
These animals don't have the gift of speech though so all is conveyed
via touch and body language. It causes me to often wonder that what
appears violent to humans is not so with other species. I may see a
mare's approach to her young as violent as a human, but is it really
in the world of horses? So interesting!
Great post!
Jeva
--- In [email protected], Ren
<starsuncloud@n...> wrote:
>other animal
> "Instinct: Do you know that NO other animal hits its young? No
> punishes its young? How do humans GET this "instinct"? The instinctis
> tothat so many
> protect, not harm. And humans have the added plus of *creativity*
>Kelly, BUT, that's not entirely true ya know. :)
> refuse to use."
>
> I hate to play devil's advocate here....cuz I love your posts
> Have you ever seen a big cat get irritated with the antics of theiryoungun's? They can smack fairly hard. It's certainly not a repeated
thing, like a spanking would be. But large cats (cats of any kind
actually) will put their little ones in place with a good pop once in
a while. I had a friend that owned big cats (cougars) so I got some
up close and personal time there.
>We are hopefully more able to reason and use more tools than a Tiger!
> I don't think that has anything to do with human behavior though.
>> Ren
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/22/03 10:52:46 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
starsuncloud@... writes:
They will snap at them, bite them, growl at them to deter unwanted behavior.
I am not suggesting that we behave like animals. But, I do not think the
comparison is unfounded.
Teresa
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
starsuncloud@... writes:
> "Instinct: Do you know that NO other animal hits its young? No other animalI thought about this too. And dogs do the same things with thier puppies.
>
> punishes its young? How do humans GET this "instinct"? The instinct is
> to
> protect, not harm. And humans have the added plus of *creativity* that so
> many
>
> refuse to use."
>
> I hate to play devil's advocate here....cuz I love your posts Kelly, BUT,
> that's not entirely true ya know. :)
> Have you ever seen a big cat get irritated with the antics of their
> youngun's? They can smack fairly hard. It's certainly not a repeated thing, like a
> spanking would be. But large cats (cats of any kind actually) will put their
> little ones in place with a good pop once in a while. I had a friend that owned
> big cats (cougars) so I got some up close and personal time there.
>
They will snap at them, bite them, growl at them to deter unwanted behavior.
I am not suggesting that we behave like animals. But, I do not think the
comparison is unfounded.
Teresa
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/22/03 11:53:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time, grlynbl@...
writes:
think we can compare human and animal parenting instincts
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
writes:
> But, I do not think theTypo alert.. I meant I DO think the comparison is unfounded. I don't really
> comparison is unfounded.
>
think we can compare human and animal parenting instincts
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
It's instinctive for almost all animals to bite/kick when hurt or cornered.
Fight or flight.
Parental disciplining in the animal world is not done with teeth or claws or
hooves---their weapons. It's done with voice and body language (their main
means of communication)---and often includes touch.
Human hands ARE our weapons. And our brains are too.
Mares and foals (colts are just the males---and then we get into that whole
"bad boy" thang again! <g>)----I have never seen a mare actually bite or kick a
foal in anger. Other horses, yes---but never her foal. If she'd disciplining,
she might "bite" with lips, not teeth, but usually body language will keep
the foal in line. She'll kick "at" a foal, but I've never seen a mare actually
connect on purpose.
I've seen apes to horrendous things to each other, but never a mom to her own
healthy infant.
Big cats? That swat would level me or you, but the cub might just tumble. If
she "wanted" to inflict pain, she certainly *could*. She doesn't. What would
she gain?
A bitch will "pin" a puppy to the ground or bite *at* him, but she won't bite
him. Hers are teeth than could literally rip the flesh right off that puppy,
but she doesn't.
There's a lot of violence in the animal world, but not to one's own infant.
Humans are different. Not only do we have MANY more means at our disposal to
be kind and gentle, we think of some of the *most* horrible punishments and
pains to inflict on innocent bodies. Spankings, whippings, drinking out of the
toilet (I'm so sorry, Dar!), burning little fingers, shaming, humiliating,
groundings,.... It's impossible to justify.
Animals have limited means, yet they peacefully and gently parent their
young. There is NO instinct to harm the young of any species. The instinct to to
NOT harm---that's why infants are not "adult-like" in apprearance, but
"infantile". So they WON'T get hurt, by their mothers or other adults.
~Kelly
Fight or flight.
Parental disciplining in the animal world is not done with teeth or claws or
hooves---their weapons. It's done with voice and body language (their main
means of communication)---and often includes touch.
Human hands ARE our weapons. And our brains are too.
Mares and foals (colts are just the males---and then we get into that whole
"bad boy" thang again! <g>)----I have never seen a mare actually bite or kick a
foal in anger. Other horses, yes---but never her foal. If she'd disciplining,
she might "bite" with lips, not teeth, but usually body language will keep
the foal in line. She'll kick "at" a foal, but I've never seen a mare actually
connect on purpose.
I've seen apes to horrendous things to each other, but never a mom to her own
healthy infant.
Big cats? That swat would level me or you, but the cub might just tumble. If
she "wanted" to inflict pain, she certainly *could*. She doesn't. What would
she gain?
A bitch will "pin" a puppy to the ground or bite *at* him, but she won't bite
him. Hers are teeth than could literally rip the flesh right off that puppy,
but she doesn't.
There's a lot of violence in the animal world, but not to one's own infant.
Humans are different. Not only do we have MANY more means at our disposal to
be kind and gentle, we think of some of the *most* horrible punishments and
pains to inflict on innocent bodies. Spankings, whippings, drinking out of the
toilet (I'm so sorry, Dar!), burning little fingers, shaming, humiliating,
groundings,.... It's impossible to justify.
Animals have limited means, yet they peacefully and gently parent their
young. There is NO instinct to harm the young of any species. The instinct to to
NOT harm---that's why infants are not "adult-like" in apprearance, but
"infantile". So they WON'T get hurt, by their mothers or other adults.
~Kelly