[email protected]

In a message dated 7/21/2003 12:51:30 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
pinklantern@... writes:

> It's simply too bad that people are to intimidated to post or ask
> questions for fear of a lashing.

THAT's why this list was splintered into other lists.

Soooo many people too scared to post.

Oddly, those lists are dead quiet while *this* one is hopping.

Explanations?

~Kelly


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 7/21/2003 1:13:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
kbcdlovejo@... writes:

> Oddly, those lists are dead quiet while *this* one is hopping.
>
> Explanations?
>

Some of the other lists ARE getting regular posts, the unschooling 101 has
plenty to keep me busy most days.

glena


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 7/21/03 10:14:09 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
kbcdlovejo@... writes:

> > It's simply too bad that people are to intimidated to post or ask
> >questions for fear of a lashing.
>
> THAT's why this list was splintered into other lists.
>
> Soooo many people too scared to post.
>
> Oddly, those lists are dead quiet while *this* one is hopping.
>
> Explanations?
>

Just last week everyone was wondering where everyone on this list was. It
wasn't until Oom brought up spanking that this list started "hopping" again.

So perhaps her posts reminded some why they are here, perhaps not. As for the
splintered groups, just because they have had a slow start does not mean they
will never take off. Then again maybe they won't.

But Jeva is not off when she states that people are in fact afraid of posting
for the reasons she describes. Just because people do not wish to be lit up
in flames does not mean they want a list that coddles parents or "holds their
hands" and "affirms" their choices. That is quite a jump from listening to each
other to berading each other.

I personally do not agree with Oom's posts (who, by the way is Chris, since
someone wanted her name and she doesn't sign with it, she did in fact,
introduce herself as Chris when she joined the list and also stated that although she
did not yet consider herself a full blown unschooler, she came here to learn
and get ideas and decide whether it would be a lifestyle condusive to her
family.) However, even when I disagree with her posts, or find them offensive, I do
not think by being offensive back she, nor anyone else will gain anything for
shouting back in e-speak. I see that as the same as: while we don't spank
here, but it is perfectly okay to yell and have adult tantrums when people don't
"get it". Then when the original offending poster, then defends themselves and
their belief system, they shut down to hearing what helpful things people
here are trying to convey, they get stuck in defending themselves, instead of
thinking there may be another way. It's very much the same things as we don't
spank, but we sure do let you know we don't think these posters are "worthy" of
our expertise.

Sorry Jeva, but this road has been travelled many times. Don't expect too
many to take the road less travelled. Just as some adults think its easier to
just spank a kid, many adults here find it just as easy to flame each other. It
is frustrating and irritating, but for me not enough to discount what I may
learn about how others do things. I have just gotten to a point where I roll my
eyes and laugh and seriously contemplate whether of not it's even worth my
energy to post a response. Obviously this time it was.

Rhonda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Betsy

**I have just gotten to a point where I roll my
eyes and laugh and seriously contemplate whether of not it's even worth
my
energy to post a response. **

::: sarcasm alert :::

Because mocking people is always SO constructive and keeps you firmly on
the high road where you can feel superior about your posting style.

R-iiiiii-ght.

Betsy

[email protected]

In a message dated 7/21/03 12:01:09 PM, RJHill241@... writes:

<< I see that as the same as: while we don't spank
here, but it is perfectly okay to yell and have adult tantrums when people
don't
"get it". >>

Saying "What you're writing isn't helpful" isn't yelling nor is it a tantrum.

Sandra

[email protected]

<< Sorry Jeva, but this road has been travelled many times. Don't expect too
many to take the road less travelled. >>

There are other lists now! NOBODY has never had to be on this list, but now,
especially, there are specific options. Could someone please give the
addresses of the other lists so those who are so unhappy with this one have an
option?

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 7/21/03 12:01:09 PM, RJHill241@... writes:

<< Just as some adults think its easier to
just spank a kid, many adults here find it just as easy to flame each other.
>>

Discussion isn't flaming. Talking about how children can be safer and
happier without being spanked isn't flaming.

Those who don't want to discuss ideas or practices shouldn't post their
opinions.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 7/21/03 11:19:16 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
ecsamhill@... writes:

> ::: sarcasm alert :::
>
> Because mocking people is always SO constructive and keeps you firmly on
> the high road where you can feel superior about your posting style.
>
> R-iiiiii-ght.
>
> Betsy
>

And this list isn't snarky...we don't get personal...we only talk about being
kind and gentle to children...we look for alternatives that make lives of
children better...funny how we don't do the same for adults.

Rhonda - who doesn't feel the need to be superior, just feels sorry for those
do.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 7/21/03 11:27:03 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:

> Saying "What you're writing isn't helpful" isn't yelling nor is it a
> tantrum.
>
> Sandra
>

I agree, unfortunately not all posts come through that way. But I do wonder
what the person being told their writing is not seen as helpful is expected to
do. Maybe they are just expected to admit they are wrong or never thought of
another way, it just seems like without one of those responses, it does get
heated here. Maybe it is just because frustration happens whichever side of a
debate one may be on and then the "lessons" get lost.

As for my last post, I mean it when I say I am not looking to feel superior.
It felt funny to read such a thing, when I am the hating rank person. (Not
that I want to travel that road again, but considering I don't like rank, to be
told I must be wanting to feel superior, that was exactly the kind of statement
I said makes me roll my eyes and laugh. Not because I am mocking anyone, but
that it is so far from being true, that I wonder why so many words are taken
apart and turned into something they are not.) I do wonder what was meant by
that statement. Perhaps it is my writing style, perhaps I said something that
sounded as though I thought of myself that way, but I can assure you all that is
not the case.

Rhonda - who doesn't happen to look at anyone here as "Superior" or
"Inferior". Even the thought of those words scream "SCHOOL" to me. Superior = teachers,
Inferior = Children =Yuck


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pamela Sorooshian

On Monday, July 21, 2003, at 10:59 AM, RJHill241@... wrote:

> Sorry Jeva, but this road has been travelled many times. Don't expect
> too
> many to take the road less travelled. Just as some adults think its
> easier to
> just spank a kid, many adults here find it just as easy to flame each
> other.

Some people see flames where others see honesty and clarity. But I'm
pretty sure we'd all agree on what we'd see if a parent smacked a kid.

Or - maybe I'm wrong. There are subtle ways of hurting children that
are taught be people like Dobson - put your arm around your kid and
give him a big pinch right between the neck and shoulder - it'll hurt
like crazy but other people won't be able to tell what you're doing.
That is suggested for use in public places. Wouldn't probably be
embraced by anybody who likes the applause from a crowd for hurting
their child, though.

-pam

Pamela Sorooshian

Jeva - try reading EVERYTHING in the tone of voice of someone who is
gentle and kind and speaks simply and clearly. You can change how it
impacts you by changing how you "hear" it yourself.

-pam


On Monday, July 21, 2003, at 11:23 AM, SandraDodd@... wrote:

>
> In a message dated 7/21/03 12:01:09 PM, RJHill241@... writes:
>
> << I see that as the same as: while we don't spank
> here, but it is perfectly okay to yell and have adult tantrums when
> people
> don't
> "get it". >>
>
> Saying "What you're writing isn't helpful" isn't yelling nor is it a
> tantrum.

Tia Leschke

> But Jeva is not off when she states that people are in fact afraid of
posting
> for the reasons she describes. Just because people do not wish to be lit
up
> in flames does not mean they want a list that coddles parents or "holds
their
> hands" and "affirms" their choices. That is quite a jump from listening to
each
> other to berading each other.

There are certain kinds of posts that are going to get jumped on - every
time. Most people here post without ever getting jumped on. I've never
been jumped on that I can remember. Then again I don't try to defend things
that simply aren't defensible on this particular list.
>
> I personally do not agree with Oom's posts (who, by the way is Chris,
since
> someone wanted her name and she doesn't sign with it, she did in fact,
> introduce herself as Chris when she joined the list and also stated that
although she
> did not yet consider herself a full blown unschooler, she came here to
learn
> and get ideas and decide whether it would be a lifestyle condusive to her
> family.) However, even when I disagree with her posts, or find them
offensive, I do
> not think by being offensive back she, nor anyone else will gain anything
for
> shouting back in e-speak. I see that as the same as: while we don't spank
> here, but it is perfectly okay to yell and have adult tantrums when people
don't
> "get it". Then when the original offending poster, then defends themselves
and
> their belief system, they shut down to hearing what helpful things people
> here are trying to convey, they get stuck in defending themselves, instead
of
> thinking there may be another way. It's very much the same things as we
don't
> spank, but we sure do let you know we don't think these posters are
"worthy" of
> our expertise.

Chris didn't come here asking questions. I don't remember any posts other
than her intro until she jumped in to defend that "drug" post and insist
that there will always be times when kids have to be made to do things, and
that she "had to" spank her son in order to make him not run away from her
on the street. When people *politely* disagreed with her, she kept at it,
adding some pretty offensive stuff about the way she thinks about her kids.
After a while, some people got fed up with her antics. Basically that's the
way it always happens. It's the old, "don't go to a vegetarian list and
talk about how important it is to eat meat without expecting people to call
you on it."
Tia

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety." Ben Franklin
leschke@...

Tia Leschke

>
> I agree, unfortunately not all posts come through that way. But I do
wonder
> what the person being told their writing is not seen as helpful is
expected to
> do. Maybe they are just expected to admit they are wrong or never thought
of
> another way, it just seems like without one of those responses, it does
get
> heated here. Maybe it is just because frustration happens whichever side
of a
> debate one may be on and then the "lessons" get lost.

Or maybe she could have just dropped it when she said she wanted to, instead
of continuing to defend her position.
Tia

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety." Ben Franklin
leschke@...

[email protected]

<<Oddly, those lists are dead quiet while *this* one is hopping.
Explanations?>>

I've seen some activity on the other lists and quite a bit on the radical
unschoolers list also. This list was quite too for a bit till someone posted
about spanking,

Kim

Betsy

**Rhonda - who doesn't feel the need to be superior, just feels sorry
for those do.**

You know, I was thinking about apologizing, but you still sound more
than a tad hypocritical to me.

I'd rather talk about issues, but you put your shoulder to the wheel and
pushed the conversation off into the debate about personal style.

Betsy

[email protected]

CabinOnTheLedge@... writes:
> radical
> unschoolers list


Ohhh, where's that? lol

Gimme a link, please?


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 7/21/03 1:19:43 PM Pacific Daylight Time, leschke@...
writes:

> Or maybe she could have just dropped it when she said she wanted to,
> instead
> of continuing to defend her position.
> Tia
>

I agree Tia. But by the same token, so could everyone else who contributed
and contributed and contributed. They were heard, if Chris chooses not to
listen, then why continue the argument? One would not need to defend themselves
unless they were continually being beraded.

Rhonda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 7/21/03 1:41:15 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
ecsamhill@... writes:

> You know, I was thinking about apologizing, but you still sound more
> than a tad hypocritical to me.
>
> I'd rather talk about issues, but you put your shoulder to the wheel and
> pushed the conversation off into the debate about personal style.
>
> Betsy
>

Please elaborate Betsy. I too went back to my post and don't seem to see
where I sounded superior or now hypocritical as you've said above. I did not push
the conversation into debate about personal style. Jeva questioned why the
discussions turn to arguments and why things are delivered in ways we wouldn't
treat our children. I was making a point to Jeva, that these same stagnant
debates happen regularly here and sometimes it just isn't worth getting worked up
about. I was also qualifying what she said because many people do post
privately when their voices are not heard or they fear coming out of lurkdom to post.
For me, I have learned to seriously reflect as to how much energy I want to
use where all e-lists are concerned. Sometimes when I sit back and wait a while
I see people clarify themselves and then I am glad I didn't jump the gun.
There are times no one posts any arguments and we all just get along and discuss
things rather than argue. Then there are times like these where neither party
is hearing the other. I'm not defending Chris (Oom) nor am I offending her. My
point was simply that it makes me sad that the ways to be better get lost
while people try to one up each other. So again I'm not sure what is either
"Superior" or "Hypocritical". Maybe I am a superior hypocrite.

Rhonda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tia Leschke

> I agree Tia. But by the same token, so could everyone else who contributed
> and contributed and contributed. They were heard, if Chris chooses not to
> listen, then why continue the argument? One would not need to defend
themselves
> unless they were continually being beraded.

It's not done for Chris. She has chosen her path. It's done for the
lurkers who just might be at the point of giving up on spanking.
Tia

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety." Ben Franklin
leschke@...

Pamela Sorooshian

On Monday, July 21, 2003, at 02:11 PM, RJHill241@... wrote:

> I agree Tia. But by the same token, so could everyone else who
> contributed
> and contributed and contributed. They were heard, if Chris chooses not
> to
> listen, then why continue the argument? One would not need to defend
> themselves
> unless they were continually being beraded.

Lots of times, a discussion starts out because of something someone
says. An example is the spanking/punishment discussion that was sparked
by Chris's description of spanking her son and a crowd of people
cheering. But, the discussion isn't limited to that - so even though
that person has stopped listening or wanting to continue, the
discussion may go on for quite a while - and is no longer a discussion
intended to respond to or answer that person, but is a larger
discussion about the ideas that it generated.

Sometimes, though, the person won't let go and keeps the focus on
themselves. They take everything personally, not grasping that the
discussion is moving on to the bigger issues and not directed to that
one specific issue anymore (although possibly using that as an example
from which to launch new discussion). My comments here, for example,
were not directed at all to trying to change Chris's mind - her mind is
not open to being changed. So the fact that she was "done" isn't
relevant. If she'd let go and not respond defensively, she'd have been
left out of the conversation fairly quickly. But she just kept on
insisting and insisting that spanking her son was a good thing - and
was rapidly backpedaling about what had really happened.

She obviously felt that the conversation was going to continue being
about her but having seen this a million times, I'm certain that, in
fact, the conversation would stop being "about her" when SHE stopped
making it about her by posting new justifications and explanations and
descriptions of what happened.

-pam

[email protected]

In a message dated 7/21/2003 1:00:55 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
RJHill241@... writes:

> But I do wonder
> what the person being told their writing is not seen as helpful is expected
> to
> do.

If a musician in an ensemble without a director is tapping his foot or
wagging his knee, he might be told it's not helpful, that it's distracting, and so
he'll try to be still.

If someone playing a sport is told that knocking someone on his own team out
of the way to get the ball isn't helpful, they usually just try to hang back
half a second or only go for balls the other person is definitely going to
miss.

If someone who is driving tells a passenger that their advice isn't being
helpful, the passenger might be quiet except in real emergencies.

If I'm in a discussion and someone has to tell me my input isn't helping, I
shush and just listen, or go off somewhere and wait for them to be through.
I've rarely been told that, maybe because I tend to stay out of conversations
when I don't know what they're about or what would help, and because I can tell
by others' reactions when something is grating or irritating to them.

-=-But I do wonder
what the person being told their writing is not seen as helpful is expected
to
do. -=-

"Expected" is a loaded word.

Some things that might be more helpful would be to soften, back up and NOT
repeat the non-helpful information over and over, or not to write for a while.
With some people just letting things sit a bit, or proofreading really well
could help.

Sandra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Betsy

** Speaking for myself I'd have to say that it's most likely because I'm
not talking/posting to my children, but to adults who are strangers to
me. I don't respond to strangers the same way as I do with my
children. HTH**

But I think we agree that the way we respond to our children is the
optimum way for learning.

Betsy

[email protected]

In a message dated 7/22/03 10:15:29 AM, ecsamhill@... writes:

<< ** Speaking for myself I'd have to say that it's most likely because I'm
not talking/posting to my children, but to adults who are strangers to
me. I don't respond to strangers the same way as I do with my
children. HTH**

<<But I think we agree that the way we respond to our children is the
optimum way for learning. >>


There's SUCH a range of behavior and response, though, that the way I talked
to Holly about where babies come from is not how I would deal with a drunk who
wandered into my back yard and started yelling at my dog.

Sandra