pink lantern

Hello all,

I just recently joined this group in hopes of seeking support. This includes
my relearning or rethinking what society has brainwashed me with as being
"normal or ok" and though I'll get flamed by the obvious monopoly, I feel I
must say something as the posts below really upset me.

It one thing to disagree with someone, but to do so in such a disrespectful
and undignified way is really upsetting to me. Where is the peace in this
type of reply? Where is the love & understanding. Intolerance and impatience
aren't tools for teaching and I am here to learn.I will make mistakes in my
parenting path and I will disagree with people here as we are all not alike
nor are our styles of "parenting" and that should all be ok.

I shouldn't feel afraid to post in fear I'll get slammed by certain members
like Oom. I didn't feel she was accusing or labeling anyone in particular,
just sharing an opinion. So why attack? I'm positive, I too, will get a heap
of flaming, but I find this terribly uncomfortable and unfair. I'd be much
more willing to listen to a non-reactionary gentle reply. It's a bit like
the pot calling the kettle black to accuse of attack and then retaliate by
attacking back as well. Non-reaction is an emotionally adult way to handle
such things, not more insults and accusations or assumptions. Give the topic
up Oom, you don't have a chance. You've already been hung before tried. I've
seen it happen before.

This is the 5th time I've been too intimidated to post because of this type
of reaction. I honestly don't think Oom was name calling, etc... She is on
another list that I have been on and appears to be a gentle soul.

Can't we agree to disagree on certain subject, treat each other with respect
and dignity?

I wish you all well. I doubt I'll post after this out of fear. I feel
terrible about this as I still have many many questions and came seeking
help on many issues as I feel very alone in our unschooling journey. It's a
shame a few ruin it for the many. :(

Good luck to all and PEACE,
Jeva

*********************************************
Since you know SO much and seem to dislike this list SO much, what's the
deal?

If your way is working great for you, just go do it! Because your
commentary
and advice aren't adding to unschooling peace and prosperity.

Sandra



In a message dated 7/20/03 1:42:23 PM, OomYaaqub@... writes:

<< The word actually means slower
in development. >>

Actually?

Huh.

WE KNOW THAT.

And you used it of boys in general and it seemed of your boys in particular.


Sandra


________________________________________________________________________

Deborah Lewis

***Can't we agree to disagree on certain subject, treat each other with
respect
and dignity?***

I think it would be disrespectful to assume a poster is too shallow or
narrow minded or stubborn or ignorant to not be able to make better
choices. I think it would be disrespectful to everyone on this list to
say spanking is ok when it isn't. I think it's disrespectful to children
to coddle parents who don't want to do a better job and are content to go
on thinking smacking kids is ok.

I think honesty is respectful. I think there is dignity in honesty and
the clear exchange of information.

I think there are lists where people who don't want to hear the truth can
go and have their hand held and patted tenderly by people who don't care
so much about treating children with respect and dignity.

Deb L

jeva

I feel that we can convey honesty, no matter how blatant with
respect. When comments are made with sarcasm, instead of showing
someone there is a better way, it generally turns the listener off.
What good is that?

By using sarcasm and shame, you are no better than the person
spanking and shaming their children in front of a crowds of people.
You lose the the audience. Certainly a more mature response would
have a better chance of helping this person to see the assumed error
instead of abuse and verbal lashing. Not much sense in being an
advocate for non-violence only to lash out, accuse, and be hateful.

For myself, I'd sooner respect the opinion of a mature individual who
makes clear statements, not personal attacks. It's how the message is
conveyed. Do you teach your children with such reactions? Or do you
help them with patient guidance. Yes, we are supposed to be adults
here and we don't have to sugar coat everything, but no one gets
anywhere with shame and sarcastic insulting attacks.

After posting I've gotten quite a few responses privately from others
who never post out of fear of harsh judgement and attacks. That's
pretty sad. I can't say I'm at all surprised though at this point.

Jeva


--- In [email protected], Deborah Lewis
<ddzimlew@j...> wrote:
> ***Can't we agree to disagree on certain subject, treat each other
with
> respect
> and dignity?***
>
> I think it would be disrespectful to assume a poster is too shallow
or
> narrow minded or stubborn or ignorant to not be able to make better
> choices. I think it would be disrespectful to everyone on this
list to
> say spanking is ok when it isn't. I think it's disrespectful to
children
> to coddle parents who don't want to do a better job and are content
to go
> on thinking smacking kids is ok.
>
> I think honesty is respectful. I think there is dignity in honesty
and
> the clear exchange of information.
>
> I think there are lists where people who don't want to hear the
truth can
> go and have their hand held and patted tenderly by people who don't
care
> so much about treating children with respect and dignity.
>
> Deb L

Deborah Lewis

***I feel that we can convey honesty, no matter how blatant with
respect. ***

What was disrespectful? What was more disrespectful than making sexist
comments about children and their level of intelligence and proudly
bringing up the subject of spanking and insisting it's fine and a good
choice on a list where thoughtful parents strive everyday to be
respectful of their children?

Why do you feel such a need to defend this poster?
Are you defending insulting and hitting children?

Do you think the poster is right?

You could have chosen to give her intelligent well thought out support.
Instead you accuse people of being hateful because they posted in defense
of children.

If you have a clear argument to support spanking, shaming and insulting
children, please express it here in support of the original poster. If
you only want to insult those who took the time to create thoughtful
responses, you're wasting our time.

If you don't think insulting and hitting children is a good choice why
are you so angry at those expressing disagreement with a poster who came
here of her own free will and brought the subject up herself?

***After posting I've gotten quite a few responses privately from others
who never post out of fear of harsh judgement and attacks.***

Yes and it's just possible they cannot defend their positions and so must
take that less mature road in the hope of gaining secret support from
others.

While you have objected strongly now in two posts to the kind of
responses the poster received we have not seen your loving, understanding
response to her claims boys are retarded and spanking is a useful
parenting tool that does no harm to children.

Deb L

jeva

That's the whole point. Why should we have to defend ourselves. Is
this a war or a discussion list? Also, my post wasn't directed at
you. Why do you feel the need to defend other people? Probably the
same reason I do.

It's NOT the disagreement I have a problem with. It is the way the
message is being conveyed. You can try to justify violence with
retaliating with more violence, but it's a dead end road.

As I've said now twice, I don't need to defend anyone or myself. It's
simply too bad that people are to intimidated to post or ask
questions for fear of a lashing.

I would think it much more constructive to offer to show people a
better way than react negatively.

Instead of being so preoccupied with one upping one assault with
another, why not attempt to make change or simple agree to not agree
without verbal lashings. Just like the point of my first
point...completely ignored.

You don't advocate spanking, but feel it's perfectly ok to react to
another's violence with more of the same?

Does it get us anywhere? Does it show the person who spanks a better
way? No, it just intimidates people and all is unresolved.

Jeva

--- In [email protected], Deborah Lewis
<ddzimlew@j...> wrote:
> ***I feel that we can convey honesty, no matter how blatant with
> respect. ***
>
> What was disrespectful? What was more disrespectful than making
sexist
> comments about children and their level of intelligence and proudly
> bringing up the subject of spanking and insisting it's fine and a
good
> choice on a list where thoughtful parents strive everyday to be
> respectful of their children?
>
> Why do you feel such a need to defend this poster?
> Are you defending insulting and hitting children?
>
> Do you think the poster is right?
>
> You could have chosen to give her intelligent well thought out
support.
> Instead you accuse people of being hateful because they posted in
defense
> of children.
>
> If you have a clear argument to support spanking, shaming and
insulting
> children, please express it here in support of the original
poster. If
> you only want to insult those who took the time to create thoughtful
> responses, you're wasting our time.
>
> If you don't think insulting and hitting children is a good choice
why
> are you so angry at those expressing disagreement with a poster who
came
> here of her own free will and brought the subject up herself?
>
> ***After posting I've gotten quite a few responses privately from
others
> who never post out of fear of harsh judgement and attacks.***
>
> Yes and it's just possible they cannot defend their positions and
so must
> take that less mature road in the hope of gaining secret support
from
> others.
>
> While you have objected strongly now in two posts to the kind of
> responses the poster received we have not seen your loving,
understanding
> response to her claims boys are retarded and spanking is a useful
> parenting tool that does no harm to children.
>
> Deb L

[email protected]

In a message dated 7/21/03 7:54:46 AM, pinklantern@... writes:

<< It's a

shame a few ruin it for the many. :( >>

Ruin spanking for so many?

Ruin the peace of children we haven't even met?

If a mother can be convinced that with just the SMALLEST adjustments of her
attitude toward her children that ALL their lives can be richer and better,
where's the peace in that?

The peace in that is that saying "whatever you do is fine" leaves some
families still being hateful to their children.

Where's the peace is saying that "an obvious monopoly" is picking on poor
spanking mothers (or whatever the point is intending to be)?

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 7/21/03 9:37:00 AM, ddzimlew@... writes:

<< I think it's disrespectful to children
to coddle parents who don't want to do a better job and are content to go
on thinking smacking kids is ok. >>

I agree with Deb.

When people whine here that their "needs" weren't taken seriously or they
weren't receiving affirmation, etc., it seems to me that it's almost always those
very moms who came here to TRY to get more experienced unschoolers to tell
them that what they're doing is just as good as anything, that their children
will not be harmed by their continuing meanness, and that they're Good Moms.

What if I came new to this list and said "Okay, my kids are lazy brats and
IF they stop talking back to me and stop being sneaky, THEN I'll start being
nice to them, but if they haven't shaped up and started doing some schoolwork,
I'm going to ground them, spank them, and send them to school without any
breakfast."

I would HOPE you all would care more about my children's tender feelings and
tender butts and tender futures than you would care about my right to
continue to be a dope.

Sandra

Deborah Lewis

***Why should we have to defend ourselves.***

If a person comes freely to a discussion list about unschooling and posts
numerous ideas and attitudes which are harmful to children and to parent
/ child relations that person should be able to explain why insulting
children and hitting them makes better sense than mindful parenting.

The poster didn't or couldn't do that.

If a person holds a conviction, lives by a philosophy and participates
willingly in a discussion, that person should be able to support her
convictions and philosophies. No one has been forced to come to this
discussion list and participate.

***Also, my post wasn't directed at
you. Why do you feel the need to defend other people? ***

You're post was sent to the entire list and I'm here because I feel
children need advocates in a world where the people who are supposed to
love them and care for them make excuses for hitting and insulting them
instead.

***You can try to justify violence with
retaliating with more violence,***

I do not consider thoughtful discussion violence. Some people find any
kind of disagreement distasteful but that's not the same as violence.
How do you want people to type when they disagree with a poster? What
should we sound like when we say children should never be hit? Where is
the violence in saying everyone can stop making bad choices and make
better ones?

***I would think it much more constructive to offer to show people a
better way than react negatively.***

Then do that. You're posts have been all about trying to teach posters
to this discussion a lesson. If you think there is a better way to end
spankings and verbal insults to children be the example and post those
better, more constructive ideas yourself.

If you only want to complain about the way others post here, perhaps you
can e-mail the moderator directly for help and ideas.

Deb L

Sarah

I'm relatively new to this list, but I think that's just silly. I speak
up here, and I'm a *gasp* teacher, and my kids go to school (by choice,
but still...) People might silently judge me, but no one attacks me!
If I am not harshly attacked, why would you (collectively) be?
Although, maybe my attack is just waiting in the wings...

Sarah
See my/our blog: http://www.bruceportal.com
<http://www.bruceportal.com/>


-----Original Message-----
From: jeva [mailto:pinklantern@...]
Sent: Monday, July 21, 2003 8:53 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [Unschooling-Discussion] Re: Digest Number 3840



After posting I've gotten quite a few responses privately from others
who never post out of fear of harsh judgement and attacks. That's
pretty sad. I can't say I'm at all surprised though at this point.

Jeva




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 7/21/03 10:51:27 AM, pinklantern@... writes:

<< That's the whole point. Why should we have to defend ourselves. Is

this a war or a discussion list? >>

It's a discussion list.
If you want to make points you can't defend, it's a very lame discussion list
then.

People can't discuss things without saying what they do, what they've seen,
or what they believe. If all you're doing and seeing has to do with this list,
the contributions aren't very helpful to people wanting ideas and information
about unschooling and living with their children peacefully as unschooling
families.

Instead of telling us about your home, yourself and your children, you told
us what you think about this list. Maybe we need another list on the side to
discuss this list. THIS list is for discussing unschooling-related issues,
and respect for children and gentle treatment of children are both better for
unschooling than antagonism and spanking are.

-=-Just like the point of my first

point...completely ignored. -=-

Jeva, if you can do this better, do it. If you can gently convince someone
not to spank, do it.


Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 7/21/03 9:55:05 AM, pinklantern@... writes:

<< By using sarcasm and shame, you are no better than the person

spanking and shaming their children in front of a crowds of people.

You lose the the audience. >>

Do you think a parent spanking and shaming a child loses her audience?
Perhaps you could have said that when a mother bragged about spanking.

Instead you waited unti others responded and then criticized the style of
their responses.

Sandra

Betsy

**Instead of telling us about your home, yourself and your children, you
told us what you think about this list. Maybe we need another list on
the side to discuss this list. **

I actually like this idea. People who were pissed could post their
grievances and feel better and probably *no one at all* would read it.
I think it would come close to being a "write only" list.

Betsy

Pamela Sorooshian

On Monday, July 21, 2003, at 08:52 AM, jeva wrote:

> By using sarcasm and shame, you are no better than the person
> spanking and shaming their children in front of a crowds of people.

The kids didn't voluntarily sign onto a discussion list.

Jeva -- the list gets pretty hot and heavy on this particular topic and
some others.

The list description warns people (or at least it did until recently
when it was changed).

I'd like to give you some unsolicited advice <G> - if you're willing to
listen. After many years of intensive involvement with online email
discussions, I've realized that it ALWAYS blows things up further if
someone comments on other people's posting styles and it NEVER once has
resulted in a person changing their style. Instead, people defend and
people attack and the list gets totally sidetracked from its purpose.

Please let it go - if you are so offended that you can't get enough
useful from the list, then there are a number of other lists available.
If you can overlook the posts that seem offensive to you, you might
just find a whole lot of value here. (And some people even discover,
eventually, that those posters they thought were rude and mean turn out
to be offering some of the most valuable stuff.)

-pam

Pamela Sorooshian

On Monday, July 21, 2003, at 09:50 AM, jeva wrote:

> It's NOT the disagreement I have a problem with. It is the way the
> message is being conveyed.

Jeva - please let it go. Critiquing other people's posting styles,
their "tones", etc., is NEVER ever ever ever helpful in the way you are
wishing it would be. I know you just wish you could point it out and
the people whose posts bother you would recognize themselves and change
and that then the list would be the peaceful place you imagine it could
be. But it won't work. It won't. You'll only make things worse if you
continue this line of posting.

The only solution would be to kick people OFF the list if they were
perceived as being rude by a given percentage of people. We could all
vote on who is "in" and who is "out." Make membership contingent on a
popularity contest.

Is that what you want?

-pam

Tia Leschke

> After posting I've gotten quite a few responses privately from others
> who never post out of fear of harsh judgement and attacks. That's
> pretty sad. I can't say I'm at all surprised though at this point.

I see this kind of statement so often. What I'm wondering is WHY THE HELL
ARE THEY HERE IF THIS LIST DOESN'T MEET THEIR NEEDS?
Yes I'm shouting. This debate comes up about once a month. It almost
always happens when one person decides to argue with one or more of the main
premises of this list. Why do people feel it necessary to do that?
Tia

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety." Ben Franklin
leschke@...

[email protected]

pinklantern@... writes:
> It's
> simply too bad that people are to intimidated to post or ask
> questions for fear of a lashing.

I can understand this. I felt this way on some lists when I first got
online. But if there's something I feel strongly about, I am gonna post, but
I can't control other people's responses.
I had to get used to the idea that I am, indeed, going to get
responses that I don't like. And the one thing I have learned, is, don't take it
personally, and don't make it personal, and you'll be able to have very
interesting debates.
I forget that sometimes, for example, not so long ago, on this list,
and the convo went nowhere fast. That was my fault for not following my own
rule!
No need to fear a lashing, if someone does that, and you don't want to
play, simply don't respond. But you can't control other people's
personality, or responses, and on lists where there is what I call an "overmoderator",
the list gets stifled and dies.

<<No, it just intimidates people and all is unresolved. >>

I understand, but if a person is intimidated, I think it's best if that
person takes responsibility for feeling that way, not blame others for "making"
them feel that way.

My two cents...

~Aimee



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

jeva

No, a few ruin the list for the many by being so nasty.


Because of your hostile attitude, you've missed the message.

The message is if you want to put a stop to violence, you do so
maturely, and not in a verbally abusive and sarcastic assault.

I never said I agreed with spanking. What I did say was that you get
no where with sarcasm, assumptions, and insults. Violence breeds
violence. I also never said I agreed with Oom at all. I'm simply
saying that you'll get no where with sarcasm. I also didn't comment
on most all you mentioned below and it appears you like to make
assumptions about people you don't know.

Also because of such disrespect and lack of patience people who could
possibly learn about gentle guidance for children or how to deal with
their situations in a positive manner are too afraid to post fearing
being chewed out.

That's terrible.

No one is going to listen to a snotty nasty reply. You'd get further
with a little patience and guidance instead of reacting with anger.
It just breeds more anger, you've lost the audience, and the child
will probably go on being spanked which is a shame.

This obviously isn't the first time this has occurred on this list
now that I'm reading past posts. It appears to be an on going
difficulty involving the same people.

You won't get anywhere attacking people. I'm sure Oom and others
would be much more willing to listen to a mature calm wise reply that
is helpful and maight cause her or others to rethink their actions
instead of a reactionary rant full of sarcasm and nasty comments on
how horrible and wrong she is.

Ruin the chance to help this mother find gentle discipline?

Yes, you are.

Jeva






--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
>
> In a message dated 7/21/03 7:54:46 AM, pinklantern@e... writes:
>
> << It's a
>
> shame a few ruin it for the many. :( >>
>
> Ruin spanking for so many?
>
> Ruin the peace of children we haven't even met?
>
> If a mother can be convinced that with just the SMALLEST
adjustments of her
> attitude toward her children that ALL their lives can be richer and
better,
> where's the peace in that?
>
> The peace in that is that saying "whatever you do is fine" leaves
some
> families still being hateful to their children.
>
> Where's the peace is saying that "an obvious monopoly" is picking
on poor
> spanking mothers (or whatever the point is intending to be)?
>
> Sandra

jeva

Yes, stick around! If you do choose to challenge the self appointed
authorities on this list, yes, you too can have a reaming, learn
nothing but instead get upset and leave or simply go silent and
lurk...nothing having changed. That would be too bad.

Jeva

--- In [email protected], "Sarah"
<irsarah.bean@v...> wrote:
>
>
> I'm relatively new to this list, but I think that's just silly. I
speak
> up here, and I'm a *gasp* teacher, and my kids go to school (by
choice,
> but still...) People might silently judge me, but no one attacks
me!
> If I am not harshly attacked, why would you (collectively) be?
> Although, maybe my attack is just waiting in the wings...
>
> Sarah
> See my/our blog: http://www.bruceportal.com
> <http://www.bruceportal.com/>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: jeva [mailto:pinklantern@e...]
> Sent: Monday, July 21, 2003 8:53 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: [Unschooling-Discussion] Re: Digest Number 3840
>
>
>
> After posting I've gotten quite a few responses privately from
others
> who never post out of fear of harsh judgement and attacks. That's
> pretty sad. I can't say I'm at all surprised though at this point.
>
> Jeva
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Fetteroll

on 7/21/03 4:41 PM, jeva at pinklantern@... wrote:

> No one is going to listen to a snotty nasty reply. You'd get further
> with a little patience and guidance instead of reacting with anger.
> It just breeds more anger, you've lost the audience, and the child
> will probably go on being spanked which is a shame.

Jeva, I'm not sure what discussion you're referring to since the discussion
I've been reading doesn't resemble what you've described.

What I've seen is a lot of hours patiently and peacefully put in over the
past couple of days offering arguments and evidence why big people hitting
little people is a bad idea. And what I've read in response is opinions,
weak support and a refusal to consider that what has been said has any
merit.

That's a bad formula for discussion and a good formula for frustration. And
frustration is what I'm reading today.

While it's true that nastiness is not a good learning tool, neither is
refusal to try to understand the philosophy that's discussed on this list.

The discussion of the list and the "discussion" of spanking -- which
apparently never got to that level -- needs to stop so the list can be used
for more useful purposes.

Joyce
Unschooling-Discussion moderator

jeva

Again, that's not what I said. By losing sarcasm and shame, you lose
your audience.

You're right, I should have posted and suggested some other gentle
ways to handle her situation instead of violence.

Oom, if you haven't unsubbed yet, please feel free to contact me on
or off the list if you wish to discuss other more gentle ways of
guiding and helping your child instead of spanking.

I apologise for not posting to you sooner, but I was fairly shocked
by the replies you have gotten. I hope you'll stay or join another
list where people are not so apt to attack you, but perhaps help in a
friendly gentle manner.

There are easier more positive ways to work with your child instead
of using physical force that would be much better for both you and
your child. I'm certainly open to helping if I can.

Jeva

--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
>
> In a message dated 7/21/03 9:55:05 AM, pinklantern@e... writes:
>
> << By using sarcasm and shame, you are no better than the person
>
> spanking and shaming their children in front of a crowds of people.
>
> You lose the the audience. >>
>
> Do you think a parent spanking and shaming a child loses her
audience?
> Perhaps you could have said that when a mother bragged about
spanking.
>
> Instead you waited unti others responded and then criticized the
style of
> their responses.
>
> Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 7/21/2003 5:05:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
pinklantern@... writes:


> Yes, stick around! If you do choose to challenge the self appointed
> authorities on this list, yes, you too can have a reaming, learn
> nothing but instead get upset and leave or simply go silent and
> lurk...nothing having changed. That would be too bad.

That's OK. You could still just post and post and post about the posters. You
will generate TONS of useless posts---OR you will eventually be ignored.

This list is what it is. Your bitching won't change it. If you're unhappy,
you may go to one of the many new lists Helen has started---or start your own.
Many have tried. All have failed.

Discussing unschooling and mindful, peaceful parenting is what this list
DOES. If you (general you) want to advocate spanking, you have to realize that
nobody here will just let it lie. It WILL get discussed until the advocate backs
down or shuts up.

~Kelly


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sarah

Or maybe I'll just appoint *my*self an authority and not allow anyone to
challenge me! If they're self-appointed, why don't we all just appoint
ourselves the authorities, and not allow anybody to challenge each
other! lol, jk I'm not too concerned, I can hold my own in a
discussion.

Sarah
See my/our blog: http://www.bruceportal.com
<http://www.bruceportal.com/>


-----Original Message-----
From: jeva [mailto:pinklantern@...]
Sent: Monday, July 21, 2003 2:01 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [Unschooling-Discussion] Re: Digest Number 3840


Yes, stick around! If you do choose to challenge the self appointed
authorities on this list, yes, you too can have a reaming, learn
nothing but instead get upset and leave or simply go silent and
lurk...nothing having changed. That would be too bad.

Jeva

--- In [email protected], "Sarah"
<irsarah.bean@v...> wrote:
>
>
> I'm relatively new to this list, but I think that's just silly. I
speak
> up here, and I'm a *gasp* teacher, and my kids go to school (by
choice,
> but still...) People might silently judge me, but no one attacks
me!
> If I am not harshly attacked, why would you (collectively) be?
> Although, maybe my attack is just waiting in the wings...
>
> Sarah
> See my/our blog: http://www.bruceportal.com
> <http://www.bruceportal.com/>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: jeva [mailto:pinklantern@e...]
> Sent: Monday, July 21, 2003 8:53 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: [Unschooling-Discussion] Re: Digest Number 3840
>
>
>
> After posting I've gotten quite a few responses privately from
others
> who never post out of fear of harsh judgement and attacks. That's
> pretty sad. I can't say I'm at all surprised though at this point.
>
> Jeva
>
>
>




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jeva

Thanks Pam!

Not so much offended as sad that people would be so violent when
addressing such a topic as spanking and how wrong it is! Replying to
a woman who obviously needs help to stop violence with more violence
is pretty sad.


I agree that at times, even the most hostile have something to say
that is positive. It helps if you agree with them. lol!You are
correct though, and I'll head back to lurkdom. From reading the
archives, not much changes in this area.

Two quotes that I love:

"Human kind has to get out of violence only through nonviolence.
Hatred can be overcome only by love. Counter-hatred only increases
the surface as well as the depth of hatred." - Mahatma Gandhi

"Nonviolence means avoiding not only external physical violence but
also internal violence of spirit. You not only refuse to shoot a man,
but you refuse to hate him." - Martin Luther King, Jr.

Jeva

--- In [email protected], Pamela Sorooshian
<pamsoroosh@m...> wrote:
>
> On Monday, July 21, 2003, at 08:52 AM, jeva wrote:
>
>> Please let it go - if you are so offended that you can't get
enough
> useful from the list, then there are a number of other lists
available.
> If you can overlook the posts that seem offensive to you, you might
> just find a whole lot of value here. (And some people even
discover,
> eventually, that those posters they thought were rude and mean turn
out
> to be offering some of the most valuable stuff.)
>
> -pam

Pamela Sorooshian

Jeva - there are hundreds of people here - dozens posting. Please, just
ignore and encourage others to ignore - those they don't like the sound
of and enjoy those you do. Stop trying to make everyone be just the way
you'd like them to be, recognize this is a free-speech list as long as
somewhat topic-related, and just move on. YOU are now the person who is
disrupting the discussion on this list. Please please please do the
rest of us a favor and stop. Please. (I'm saying this in a somewhat
begging tone - not a demanding one - hear me as really sounding hopeful
and just a little frustrated.)

-pam


On Monday, July 21, 2003, at 01:41 PM, jeva wrote:

> No one is going to listen to a snotty nasty reply. You'd get further
> with a little patience and guidance instead of reacting with anger.
> It just breeds more anger, you've lost the audience, and the child
> will probably go on being spanked which is a shame.

[email protected]

In a message dated 7/21/2003 5:38:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
pinklantern@... writes:
> Replying to a woman who obviously needs help to stop violence with more
> violence is pretty sad.

She seemed perfectly happy advocating spanking. Didn't seem to *want* help.
Thought it was right and good and deserved.

It's a whole different ballgame when someone *asks* for help.

And NOBODY was spanking Chris. Not one OUNCE of violence here. STRENUOUS
objections---and no different than anyone of us would do with out own children if
they decided to spank as parents.

~Kelly


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Tia Leschke

> This obviously isn't the first time this has occurred on this list
> now that I'm reading past posts. It appears to be an on going
> difficulty involving the same people.

That's partly why the other lists were started recently. This list is what
it is. Those who like it stay. Those who don't . . . well I just don't
understand why they stay.
>
> You won't get anywhere attacking people. I'm sure Oom and others
> would be much more willing to listen to a mature calm wise reply that
> is helpful and maight cause her or others to rethink their actions
> instead of a reactionary rant full of sarcasm and nasty comments on
> how horrible and wrong she is.

There were quite a lot of those, and she wasn't listening.
Tia

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety." Ben Franklin
leschke@...

Tia Leschke

> Yes, stick around! If you do choose to challenge the self appointed
> authorities on this list, yes, you too can have a reaming, learn
> nothing but instead get upset and leave or simply go silent and
> lurk...nothing having changed. That would be too bad.

The "authorities" on this list are not self-appointed. They are the people
who have been found to have the most useful information for enough of us
that we're willing to *grant* them some authority. If you don't consider
them authorities, then don't listen to them. It's really simple.
Tia

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety." Ben Franklin
leschke@...

Pamela Sorooshian

On Monday, July 21, 2003, at 02:11 PM, jeva wrote:

> Oom, if you haven't unsubbed yet, please feel free to contact me on
> or off the list if you wish to discuss other more gentle ways of
> guiding and helping your child instead of spanking.

You missed something, Jeva. She isn't interested - she knows all those
ways. She thinks she did absolutely the RIGHT thing to spank him right
there on the street corner and the fact that people on the corner
applauded is even more justification.

-pam

Sarah

You mean there really are authorities? Who are they?

Sarah
See my/our blog: <http://www.bruceportal.com/>
http://www.bruceportal.com




The "authorities" on this list are not self-appointed. They are the
people
who have been found to have the most useful information for enough of us
that we're willing to *grant* them some authority. If you don't
consider
them authorities, then don't listen to them. It's really simple.
Tia



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Lee-Ann and Robert Storer

Sorry, I'm jumping in here.

Just don't spank.

(you can use yul brenner's voice to say it if you like)

Just don't spank.

Arguements about who posts how, in my opinion, are totally worthless. I could start a list for 'pissed off subscribers to unschooling-discussion' if it would help, but I sure as hell (now there's an interesting phrase lol) won't be posting to it.

Just don't spank.

Lee-Ann in Harrow, Victoria, Australia, The World lol


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