Re: [Unschooling-Discussion] Spanking, WAS A drug problem
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/21/2003 12:06:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
OomYaaqub@... writes:
would impress him in a positive way. It probably humiliated him COMPLETELY. The
pain was INTERNAL---and you can't take that back---even if you would want to.
Sad story.
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
OomYaaqub@... writes:
> I understand. I do think know that in this particular case, it worked, notI don't think a "bunch of onlookers that heartily agreed" with his spanking
>
> just then, but forever. It may well have been the shock value IN ADDITION
> to
> the the fact that a bunch of on-lookers so heartifly agreed with me that
> impressed him. The pain itself, through a pair of thick winter pants, could
> not have
> hurt much, if at all.
would impress him in a positive way. It probably humiliated him COMPLETELY. The
pain was INTERNAL---and you can't take that back---even if you would want to.
Sad story.
~Kelly
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[email protected]
In a message dated 7/21/2003 8:34:11 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
kbcdlovejo@... writes:
probably isn't a mother alive who doesn't wish some moments back to get a "do
over". While that doesn't happen, we CAN learn from past experiences and handle
our regrettable situations differently next time.
Kids are very forgiving and I doubt a child would hold this against a loving
mother who is learning to do things differently now. I really doubt this one
incident scared this child beyond repair for their entire life. I could be
wrong, but I think more is being made of the situation than really happened.
Learning is good, forgiving is good, encouraging is good, condemning is
shameful, spanking is bad, we live, we learn, we do better next time and the time
after that.
glena
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kbcdlovejo@... writes:
> I don't think a "bunch of onlookers that heartily agreed" with his spankingBut there is an upside, while you can't take that moment back EVER, there
>
> would impress him in a positive way. It probably humiliated him COMPLETELY.
> The
> pain was INTERNAL---and you can't take that back---even if you would want
> to.
>
> Sad story.
>
> ~Kelly
>
probably isn't a mother alive who doesn't wish some moments back to get a "do
over". While that doesn't happen, we CAN learn from past experiences and handle
our regrettable situations differently next time.
Kids are very forgiving and I doubt a child would hold this against a loving
mother who is learning to do things differently now. I really doubt this one
incident scared this child beyond repair for their entire life. I could be
wrong, but I think more is being made of the situation than really happened.
Learning is good, forgiving is good, encouraging is good, condemning is
shameful, spanking is bad, we live, we learn, we do better next time and the time
after that.
glena
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Fetteroll
on 7/21/03 9:49 AM, rubyprincesstsg@... at rubyprincesstsg@...
wrote:
incident as an example of when it was a good tool to employ. She isn't
saying she'd do anything differently. She's suggesting she'd do the exact
same thing even after 9 years of thought.
that spanking is a useful parenting tool.
The incident may or may not be forgotten. Whether it is or not isn't
important. The important thing is that a philosophy or punishment *could*
cause that side effect. That's one of the things that makes that philosophy
a bad one. There are much better philosophies that don't have the potential
for psychologically damaging side effects.
Joyce
wrote:
> while you can't take that moment back EVER, thereShe's advocating smacking as a useful parenting tool. She's using this
> probably isn't a mother alive who doesn't wish some moments back to get a "do
> over".
incident as an example of when it was a good tool to employ. She isn't
saying she'd do anything differently. She's suggesting she'd do the exact
same thing even after 9 years of thought.
> I really doubt this oneIt's not the incident that's being made a big deal of but the insistence
> incident scared this child beyond repair for their entire life. I could be
> wrong, but I think more is being made of the situation than really happened.
that spanking is a useful parenting tool.
The incident may or may not be forgotten. Whether it is or not isn't
important. The important thing is that a philosophy or punishment *could*
cause that side effect. That's one of the things that makes that philosophy
a bad one. There are much better philosophies that don't have the potential
for psychologically damaging side effects.
Joyce
averyschmidt
> But there is an upside, while you can't take that moment backEVER, there
> probably isn't a mother alive who doesn't wish some moments backto get a "do
> over". While that doesn't happen, we CAN learn from pastexperiences and handle
> our regrettable situations differently next time.I think the difference is that she *doesn't* regret what she did.
She's still justifying it and saying it was necessary. How can she
handle a regrettable situation differently next time if she still
thinks she actually handled it well to begin with? Perhaps her kids
are older and it doesn't matter for her any more, but there are many
lurkers reading who might be forming ideas about whether spanking is
ever necessary or not, so if someone is insisting that with certain
children in certain situations spanking is necessary and good and
that's that, then I think that's very much worth debating.
> Kids are very forgiving and I doubt a child would hold thisagainst a loving
> mother who is learning to do things differently now.This mother isn't saying to her child "I'm sorry I ever hit you in
front of a crowd of cheering on-lookers. It was wrong, and I would
do it differently if I could have that moment over again." That
would be healing for her child. She is insisting that she was proud
of herself and proud of the cheering crowd's applause. She has no
apparent regrets as far as I can see.
>I could behappened.
> wrong, but I think more is being made of the situation than really
She told exactly what happened. It didn't need to be made
into "more."
> Learning is good, forgiving is good, encouraging is good,condemning is
> shameful, spanking is bad, we live, we learn, we do better nexttime and the time
> after that.To "do better next time" you first have to admit to yourself that
you made a mistake.
Patti
Pamela Sorooshian
On Monday, July 21, 2003, at 06:49 AM, rubyprincesstsg@... wrote:
they felt their child was just out of control and they were afraid he'd
run into traffic and they resorted to spanking him because they felt
they HAD to do something to keep him safe -- IF someone came in saying
those things - they'd get our sympathy, for sure. MOST parents have
been there - almost ALL parents have swatted a kid at least a time or
two, even those who don't believe it is a good idea. Young humans are
very forgiving - they want to trust and love the adult humans around
them. You're right about that. Kids can tolerate even pretty terrible
abuse and get over it and even move on into good relationships with
their former abusers.
We'll all have regrets. It is part of life.
The difference here is that Oom keeps arguing that it was the BEST
thing for her son - that there was nothing else that might have been a
better answer.
It is annoying.
To come to a list asking if people here really believe that no
punishment is necessary and then to argue and argue and argue and argue
that spanking children up to 4 years old is good for them -- indicates
to the rest of us that she has no interest in what people who never
punish have to say - just wants to argue. How respectful is that to
come to a list with that intention?
-pam
> Kids are very forgiving and I doubt a child would hold this against aIf someone came in saying that they'd blown up and got freaked out when
> loving
> mother who is learning to do things differently now. I really doubt
> this one
> incident scared this child beyond repair for their entire life. I
> could be
> wrong, but I think more is being made of the situation than really
> happened.
>
they felt their child was just out of control and they were afraid he'd
run into traffic and they resorted to spanking him because they felt
they HAD to do something to keep him safe -- IF someone came in saying
those things - they'd get our sympathy, for sure. MOST parents have
been there - almost ALL parents have swatted a kid at least a time or
two, even those who don't believe it is a good idea. Young humans are
very forgiving - they want to trust and love the adult humans around
them. You're right about that. Kids can tolerate even pretty terrible
abuse and get over it and even move on into good relationships with
their former abusers.
We'll all have regrets. It is part of life.
The difference here is that Oom keeps arguing that it was the BEST
thing for her son - that there was nothing else that might have been a
better answer.
It is annoying.
To come to a list asking if people here really believe that no
punishment is necessary and then to argue and argue and argue and argue
that spanking children up to 4 years old is good for them -- indicates
to the rest of us that she has no interest in what people who never
punish have to say - just wants to argue. How respectful is that to
come to a list with that intention?
-pam
Tim and Maureen
I have got toreply to the post about children being forgiving. I have witnessed this to be true but I have two things
to add that make this idea hard to swallow. First I don't believe it is their job and that it is too much to put them in
a position with our violence to have to forgive or understand us. When we act against our children they still want
to love us but they can not see that it is our issue. They believe it is their issue, something they have caused. I
have some highly sensitive children and the oldest has bore the brunt of my "learning". She loves me of this I
am sure just as I am equally sure that her anger and some of her intensity now is because she still carries the
weight of abuse she received from my mistakes. She has taken my anger deep into her body and is likely
aware of it but just because she has forgiven me does not mean it did not abuse damage even lifelong work for
her.
Maureen
to add that make this idea hard to swallow. First I don't believe it is their job and that it is too much to put them in
a position with our violence to have to forgive or understand us. When we act against our children they still want
to love us but they can not see that it is our issue. They believe it is their issue, something they have caused. I
have some highly sensitive children and the oldest has bore the brunt of my "learning". She loves me of this I
am sure just as I am equally sure that her anger and some of her intensity now is because she still carries the
weight of abuse she received from my mistakes. She has taken my anger deep into her body and is likely
aware of it but just because she has forgiven me does not mean it did not abuse damage even lifelong work for
her.
Maureen
On Monday, July 21, 2003, at 06:49 AM, rubyprincesstsg@... wrote:
> Kids are very forgiving and I doubt a child would hold this against a
> loving
> mother who is learning to do things differently now. I really doubt
> this one
> incident scared this child beyond repair for their entire life. I
> could be
> wrong, but I think more is being made of the situation than really
> happened.
>
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Pamela Sorooshian
On Monday, July 21, 2003, at 11:56 PM, Tim and Maureen wrote:
and want to love their parents in spite of our mistakes - does not mean
it hasn't affected them and leave them with issues they have to deal
with in their lives.
Good point, Maureen!
I know my kids have some stuff to deal with because of my mistakes. For
sure. But - still - we are learning on the job and, unfortunately,
sometimes through trial and error. We have to also forgive ourselves
and move on when we're really making progress, doing better all the
time.
-pam
> just because she has forgiven me does not mean it did not abuseI think this meant that just because kids are resilient and forgiving
> damage even lifelong work for her.
and want to love their parents in spite of our mistakes - does not mean
it hasn't affected them and leave them with issues they have to deal
with in their lives.
Good point, Maureen!
I know my kids have some stuff to deal with because of my mistakes. For
sure. But - still - we are learning on the job and, unfortunately,
sometimes through trial and error. We have to also forgive ourselves
and move on when we're really making progress, doing better all the
time.
-pam