[email protected]

In a message dated 7/20/2003 11:14:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
OomYaaqub@... writes:

> > I do think that I have a right to say no violence in my own home, just as
> I
> > have a right to say no smoking.
> > Joylyn
>
> Of course you have the right to set the rules in your own home. I think I
> would have said it out of the child's earshot, but as you say, you didn't
> really
> have time to think this out in advance.

Spanked children NEED to hear that not everybody spanks. Hopefully that child
can take what he learned from Joylyn and use it when he becomes a parent and
stop future abuse of children.

~Kelly


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 7/20/2003 11:38:17 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
OomYaaqub@... writes:

> But I needed to actually LISTEN to it first. And she shocked me enough
> that I was FORCED to listen to her.
>
> IMHO, that is basically the same thing I did when I smacked my son at the
> bus
> stop. It would NOT have worked if I went around doing it all the time, but
> because it was so rare and unexpected, it did work.

So here are two women raising children. Both think it's OK to go around
smacking others.

I wonder what kind of adults/parents the children will become.

~Kelly


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 7/21/2003 1:52:31 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
OomYaaqub@... writes:
> On another list, several people
> said that they did not believe in punishment of ANY sort, and that is fine,
> if
> you are in an environment that allows that.

This list is the same way. No groundings, no spanking, no taking things away
from children, no shaming, no punishments. We treat children as humans, NOT as
grubs waiting to become humans.

>Unfortunately the whole world is not set up like this.

No, but our own homes CAN be. It's a choice. Anyone can do it if he wants to.
It's a little harder than punishments, but MUCH more effective---and
joyful---in the long run.

You can LEARN here or you can let it go in one ear and out the other. You DO
have a choice. People here can help you see it if you WANT to.

~Kelly


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 7/21/2003 8:30:34 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
kbcdlovejo@... writes:

> I wonder what kind of adults/parents the children will become.
>
> ~Kelly
>

Maybe serial killers, maybe loving mothers, guess it's a crap shoot in a lot
of situations. I got the living crap beat out of me almost daily, I'm a
pretty well adjusted loving, kind person. Could my life have been more pleasant?
Oh yes, and I wish it had been. Did it make me a wicked terrible burden to
society? Nope, maybe in spite of our upbringings we will be what we are
innately supposed to be. Makes life more pleasant for the child growing up for sure
but we can't condemn children to be something horrible because of a spanking
as a child. I think that is simply ridiculous. Your honor, this fine young
man killed 18 people but it was because he was spanked as a child and it's not
his fault... bull!

BTW, I don't spank and wouldn't spank.

glena


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Fetteroll

on 7/21/03 9:57 AM, rubyprincesstsg@... at rubyprincesstsg@...
wrote:

> Maybe serial killers, maybe loving mothers, guess it's a crap shoot in a lot
> of situations.

There are practices that can make bad outcomes more assured and practices
that can make good outcomes more assured.

Why would anyone advocate practices that make bad outcomes more likely?

> I got the living crap beat out of me almost daily, I'm a
> pretty well adjusted loving, kind person.

So you're advocating that as a philosophy?

If it's all a crap shoot then we might as well shut the list down.

We *can* understand what can encourage bad outcomes. And we *can* understand
what can encourage good outcomes. That's why we discuss things here.

> Makes life more pleasant for the child growing up for sure
> but we can't condemn children to be something horrible because of a spanking
> as a child.

No one has said it would. But hitting can cause psychological harm. There
are other effective ways that don't. So why hit?

> Your honor, this fine young
> man killed 18 people but it was because he was spanked as a child and it's not
> his fault... bull!

No one has said anything remotely resembling that.

Joyce

Pamela Sorooshian

On Monday, July 21, 2003, at 06:57 AM, rubyprincesstsg@... wrote:

> Maybe serial killers, maybe loving mothers, guess it's a crap shoot in
> a lot
> of situations. I got the living crap beat out of me almost daily, I'm
> a
> pretty well adjusted loving, kind person.

So - are you arguing that good or bad, parenting doesn't matter in the
long run?

There is some support for that point of view - a controversial study
published by a psychologist that came out a few years ago strongly
supports it. Judith Rich Harris, The Nurture Assumption.

<http://home.att.net/~xchar/tna/>

-pam

[email protected]

In a message dated 7/21/2003 8:30:38 AM Eastern Standard Time,
kbcdlovejo@... writes:

> So here are two women raising children. Both think it's OK to go around
> smacking others.
>
> I wonder what kind of adults/parents the children will become.
>
> ~Kelly

Probably people with common sense.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 7/21/2003 8:30:38 AM Eastern Standard Time,
kbcdlovejo@... writes:

> So here are two women raising children. Both think it's OK to go around
> smacking others.
>
> I wonder what kind of adults/parents the children will become.
>
> ~Kelly

I can say that my son has grown into a sensitive, highly artistic and
intelligent teenager.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]