A drug problem
Ren
" those who haven't had kids who are
simply born with temperaments that are noncompliant contrary
ultrasensitive and so on really don't know what it is like."
I know very much what it's like.
I have three children that are very strong minded, one is more compliant and a people pleaser. Out of those three, one is EXTREMELY sensitive/hyper/intense...whatever you want to label it, he's intense in my book. A joyful, happy person, but NOT compliant in any way, nor is he an easy child comparitively. I am very , very selective about where we go and at what time of day because certain places/times are almost sure to bring about a meltdown if I'm not properly prepared.
But isn't that our job as parents? To know and understand the child development phases and know our own children well enough to be creative and thoughtful where their temperments are concerned?
If I had an intense child that was sure NOT to hold my hand in a dangerous area, and I knew this about them, it's MY fault if I get us into a situation, not the childs!!! yikes.
A backpack works wonders. If a three year old is too large for the backpack, then make sure you have a free hand. There are always many options to avoid hitting people and treating children with disrespect.
Sure, in a life threatening situation a child will get my protection whether they want it or not, they would want it if they truly understood what was happening. So knowing that I am acting on their behalf, because they don't understand, is my job too.
But that's not what we need to discuss on this list. It's a given that any of us would protect our child against their will if it was a life/death situation.
Let's talk about day to day solutions for these children/families. My children have as much say in our activities as I do. If they didn't want to go to the library, we'd compromise. There are always SO many solutions and I think it's ultra important for parents to consider children's requests, likes/dislikes as equally important to your own.
That isn't happening if the attitude is "too bad, we HAVE to do this"
Ren
simply born with temperaments that are noncompliant contrary
ultrasensitive and so on really don't know what it is like."
I know very much what it's like.
I have three children that are very strong minded, one is more compliant and a people pleaser. Out of those three, one is EXTREMELY sensitive/hyper/intense...whatever you want to label it, he's intense in my book. A joyful, happy person, but NOT compliant in any way, nor is he an easy child comparitively. I am very , very selective about where we go and at what time of day because certain places/times are almost sure to bring about a meltdown if I'm not properly prepared.
But isn't that our job as parents? To know and understand the child development phases and know our own children well enough to be creative and thoughtful where their temperments are concerned?
If I had an intense child that was sure NOT to hold my hand in a dangerous area, and I knew this about them, it's MY fault if I get us into a situation, not the childs!!! yikes.
A backpack works wonders. If a three year old is too large for the backpack, then make sure you have a free hand. There are always many options to avoid hitting people and treating children with disrespect.
Sure, in a life threatening situation a child will get my protection whether they want it or not, they would want it if they truly understood what was happening. So knowing that I am acting on their behalf, because they don't understand, is my job too.
But that's not what we need to discuss on this list. It's a given that any of us would protect our child against their will if it was a life/death situation.
Let's talk about day to day solutions for these children/families. My children have as much say in our activities as I do. If they didn't want to go to the library, we'd compromise. There are always SO many solutions and I think it's ultra important for parents to consider children's requests, likes/dislikes as equally important to your own.
That isn't happening if the attitude is "too bad, we HAVE to do this"
Ren
Deborah Lewis
" those who haven't had kids who are
simply born with temperaments that are noncompliant contrary
ultrasensitive and so on really don't know what it is like."
I've never known my son to be coerced, cajoled, bribed or talked into
doing something he did not want to do.
I've never known him to refuse to do a thing out of stubbornness,
meanness or spite.
I've never known him to refuse to do a thing that would benefit the well
being of his family or himself.
Is he non compliant, contrary, ultra sensitive?
Is he compliant, easy, cooperative?
He is what he needs to be, to be happy and safe and feel good about
himself.
Good for him.
Deb L
simply born with temperaments that are noncompliant contrary
ultrasensitive and so on really don't know what it is like."
I've never known my son to be coerced, cajoled, bribed or talked into
doing something he did not want to do.
I've never known him to refuse to do a thing out of stubbornness,
meanness or spite.
I've never known him to refuse to do a thing that would benefit the well
being of his family or himself.
Is he non compliant, contrary, ultra sensitive?
Is he compliant, easy, cooperative?
He is what he needs to be, to be happy and safe and feel good about
himself.
Good for him.
Deb L
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/19/03 6:28:33 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
ddzimlew@... writes:
everyone. The cousin I spoke of in my previous post is probably the polar opposite
of your child as you describe him. She does not know happiness, she does not
know compassion, she does not know why people love her despite these things.
She acts out in ways that would have some asking when is her head going to start
spinning? It is heart breaking. There are no answers. Whatever choice is made
in every situation, never seems right. To stay inside for fear of how the
public perceives her, would leave very little life to be lived. To "talk out" the
things she does is like talking to a wall. There is no consequence that works
either. So when I said that even I felt the urge to slap her when she spoke
tose words to her mother, my aunt, I realize that even that would have no
consequence for her. She would neither change her behavior, nor would it make
anyone in our family feel better. It is one of those things that are so sad and
make so little sense. Just this afternoon, this child asked my mother, after my
mom complimented her on behaving so nicely for the first half of the day, "So
are you ready for me to be evil now?" My mom was taken aback and just answered,
"No. Why? Do you want to be?" The child just laughed and reminded my mom
about grabbing my 24 yr old sister by the neck on the 4th of July. She recognizes
what she did as bad or evil and yet cannot control the urge and followthrough,
thereby acting out these horrible things.
So all the talking in the world isn't gonna change it, all the hitting in the
world isn't gonna change it, but is there an answer? Unfortunately, not so
far. But she is loved anyway. She is treated with compassion in spite of lacking
it. She is treated like a human, even when she acts likes a monster. So what
are the adults in her life supposed to do? They have to live the double edged
sword, the catch 22, they have to protect others, themselves and even her from
herself. I can't even begin to contemplate what that must be like as a
parent. I guess it makes my kids, even in the midst of hormonal changes and sibling
bickering to be angelic in comparrison.
Rhonda - who has been pondering these things for days just because it is so
painful for anyone who lives it.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
ddzimlew@... writes:
>Yes Deb, and good for you too! Unfortunately, thats is not the case for
> " those who haven't had kids who are
> simply born with temperaments that are noncompliant contrary
> ultrasensitive and so on really don't know what it is like."
>
> I've never known my son to be coerced, cajoled, bribed or talked into
> doing something he did not want to do.
>
> I've never known him to refuse to do a thing out of stubbornness,
> meanness or spite.
>
> I've never known him to refuse to do a thing that would benefit the well
> being of his family or himself.
>
> Is he non compliant, contrary, ultra sensitive?
>
> Is he compliant, easy, cooperative?
>
> He is what he needs to be, to be happy and safe and feel good about
> himself.
>
> Good for him.
>
> Deb L
>
everyone. The cousin I spoke of in my previous post is probably the polar opposite
of your child as you describe him. She does not know happiness, she does not
know compassion, she does not know why people love her despite these things.
She acts out in ways that would have some asking when is her head going to start
spinning? It is heart breaking. There are no answers. Whatever choice is made
in every situation, never seems right. To stay inside for fear of how the
public perceives her, would leave very little life to be lived. To "talk out" the
things she does is like talking to a wall. There is no consequence that works
either. So when I said that even I felt the urge to slap her when she spoke
tose words to her mother, my aunt, I realize that even that would have no
consequence for her. She would neither change her behavior, nor would it make
anyone in our family feel better. It is one of those things that are so sad and
make so little sense. Just this afternoon, this child asked my mother, after my
mom complimented her on behaving so nicely for the first half of the day, "So
are you ready for me to be evil now?" My mom was taken aback and just answered,
"No. Why? Do you want to be?" The child just laughed and reminded my mom
about grabbing my 24 yr old sister by the neck on the 4th of July. She recognizes
what she did as bad or evil and yet cannot control the urge and followthrough,
thereby acting out these horrible things.
So all the talking in the world isn't gonna change it, all the hitting in the
world isn't gonna change it, but is there an answer? Unfortunately, not so
far. But she is loved anyway. She is treated with compassion in spite of lacking
it. She is treated like a human, even when she acts likes a monster. So what
are the adults in her life supposed to do? They have to live the double edged
sword, the catch 22, they have to protect others, themselves and even her from
herself. I can't even begin to contemplate what that must be like as a
parent. I guess it makes my kids, even in the midst of hormonal changes and sibling
bickering to be angelic in comparrison.
Rhonda - who has been pondering these things for days just because it is so
painful for anyone who lives it.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Tia Leschke
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety." Ben Franklin
leschke@...
alcohol syndrome? Some kind of mental problem? Severe allergies can
sometimes make a child act that way. My granddaughter was (and still is to
a smaller degree) a lot like that girl. There was a fair bit of improvement
when they explored food allergies and took some foods out of her diet.
There was a lot more improvement when they started giving her algae, so it
seems there were some nutritional deficincies. But the thing we've had to
remember through all of this is that *she doesn't really want to be this
way.* It isn't something she has control over. Has your cousin been
investigated at all, either by traditional medical people or alternative? I
don't think I would leave any stones unturned in searching for help for this
kind of child.
Tia
deserve neither liberty nor safety." Ben Franklin
leschke@...
> Yes Deb, and good for you too! Unfortunately, thats is not the case foropposite
> everyone. The cousin I spoke of in my previous post is probably the polar
> of your child as you describe him. She does not know happiness, she doesnot
> know compassion, she does not know why people love her despite thesethings.
> She acts out in ways that would have some asking when is her head going tostart
> spinning? It is heart breaking. There are no answers. Whatever choice ismade
> in every situation, never seems right. To stay inside for fear of how theout" the
> public perceives her, would leave very little life to be lived. To "talk
> things she does is like talking to a wall. There is no consequence thatworks
> either. So when I said that even I felt the urge to slap her when shespoke
> tose words to her mother, my aunt, I realize that even that would have nomake
> consequence for her. She would neither change her behavior, nor would it
> anyone in our family feel better. It is one of those things that are sosad and
> make so little sense. Just this afternoon, this child asked my mother,after my
> mom complimented her on behaving so nicely for the first half of the day,"So
> are you ready for me to be evil now?" My mom was taken aback and justanswered,
> "No. Why? Do you want to be?" The child just laughed and reminded my momrecognizes
> about grabbing my 24 yr old sister by the neck on the 4th of July. She
> what she did as bad or evil and yet cannot control the urge andfollowthrough,
> thereby acting out these horrible things.This sounds like a child with pretty severe problems. Does she have fetal
alcohol syndrome? Some kind of mental problem? Severe allergies can
sometimes make a child act that way. My granddaughter was (and still is to
a smaller degree) a lot like that girl. There was a fair bit of improvement
when they explored food allergies and took some foods out of her diet.
There was a lot more improvement when they started giving her algae, so it
seems there were some nutritional deficincies. But the thing we've had to
remember through all of this is that *she doesn't really want to be this
way.* It isn't something she has control over. Has your cousin been
investigated at all, either by traditional medical people or alternative? I
don't think I would leave any stones unturned in searching for help for this
kind of child.
Tia
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/19/03 7:17:12 PM Pacific Daylight Time, leschke@...
writes:
Thanx for the reply and the answer is yes to every one of your questions. She
was adopted by my aunt and uncle when she was 1 week old. She was born crack
addicted along with fetal alchohol syndrome. She was born at 30 weeks
justation and was a mere 3 lbs at birth.
This is what makes the story so sad. Her parents (my Aunt & Uncle) lost their
25+ yr marriage primarily due to her issues. I'm not saying she is to blame,
but her problems are the most extensive I have ever seen. Everyone in my
family has been on this journey of searching out any and all theories,
alternatives, meds, you name it, it has been done. That is why in one of my posts, I said
the poor thing has more labels than the cans in my pantry. I meant that. The
list just seems to grow and the answers thus far have never helped. She is 14
and has the maturity of maybe an 8 year old on a really good day. She has a
very high IQ, but cannot cope with minute to minute life.
It isn't that I anticipate anyone knowing any of the answers we have
desparately searched for for all these years, rather that I could identify with Oom's
story on a personal level. I just think sometimes we judge so harshly without
knowing the circumstances. There may never be an answer that is going to make
her life have a positive outcome, but we still hope everyday. We have all had
people ask us how we could possibly love such a child. The answer is, it takes
work but she is still worthy of being loved. She is still a child. She has
issues most people will never deal with in their whole lifetimes, wrapped up in
one body.
Rhonda - who of course believes she did in fact choose this life karmically
speaking, but doesn't think that negates her need to be loved in spite of that
choice.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
writes:
> This sounds like a child with pretty severe problems. Does she have fetalHello Tia,
> alcohol syndrome? Some kind of mental problem? Severe allergies can
> sometimes make a child act that way. My granddaughter was (and still is to
> a smaller degree) a lot like that girl. There was a fair bit of improvement
> when they explored food allergies and took some foods out of her diet.
> There was a lot more improvement when they started giving her algae, so it
> seems there were some nutritional deficincies. But the thing we've had to
> remember through all of this is that *she doesn't really want to be this
> way.* It isn't something she has control over. Has your cousin been
> investigated at all, either by traditional medical people or alternative? I
> don't think I would leave any stones unturned in searching for help for this
> kind of child.
> Tia
>
Thanx for the reply and the answer is yes to every one of your questions. She
was adopted by my aunt and uncle when she was 1 week old. She was born crack
addicted along with fetal alchohol syndrome. She was born at 30 weeks
justation and was a mere 3 lbs at birth.
This is what makes the story so sad. Her parents (my Aunt & Uncle) lost their
25+ yr marriage primarily due to her issues. I'm not saying she is to blame,
but her problems are the most extensive I have ever seen. Everyone in my
family has been on this journey of searching out any and all theories,
alternatives, meds, you name it, it has been done. That is why in one of my posts, I said
the poor thing has more labels than the cans in my pantry. I meant that. The
list just seems to grow and the answers thus far have never helped. She is 14
and has the maturity of maybe an 8 year old on a really good day. She has a
very high IQ, but cannot cope with minute to minute life.
It isn't that I anticipate anyone knowing any of the answers we have
desparately searched for for all these years, rather that I could identify with Oom's
story on a personal level. I just think sometimes we judge so harshly without
knowing the circumstances. There may never be an answer that is going to make
her life have a positive outcome, but we still hope everyday. We have all had
people ask us how we could possibly love such a child. The answer is, it takes
work but she is still worthy of being loved. She is still a child. She has
issues most people will never deal with in their whole lifetimes, wrapped up in
one body.
Rhonda - who of course believes she did in fact choose this life karmically
speaking, but doesn't think that negates her need to be loved in spite of that
choice.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/19/2003 9:28:29 PM Eastern Standard Time,
ddzimlew@... writes:
gift, as much as being a talented artist or a fantastic musician.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
ddzimlew@... writes:
> I've never known my son to be coerced, cajoled, bribed or talked intoHe sounds as if he is temperamentally gifted. Don't laugh, this is indeed a
> doing something he did not want to do.
>
> I've never known him to refuse to do a thing out of stubbornness,
> meanness or spite.
>
> I've never known him to refuse to do a thing that would benefit the well
> being of his family or himself.
>
gift, as much as being a talented artist or a fantastic musician.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/19/2003 9:11:24 PM Eastern Standard Time,
starsuncloud@... writes:
white, don't have children." What do you expect women to do who live in big
cities and who don't have cars, or the ability to drive for some reason? I don't
know a heck of a lot of people who think, gee, I COULD afford to live in a
gated community with a name like Whispering Willow Estate, and I COULD send the
butler out to the grocery store, so I could stay home with Muffy. But instead,
I think I'll go move to a bad neighborhood in a strange city 2000 miles from
home, where I don't know a soul and my husband has just deserted me. Then I'll
pop on over to the grocery store at rush hour, while the bus is still
running! What fun...
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
starsuncloud@... writes:
> If I had an intense child that was sure NOT to hold my hand in a dangerousThat sounds a lot like "if you aren't upper middle class, able-bodied and
> area, and I knew this about them, it's MY fault if I get us into a situation,
> not the childs!!! yikes.
white, don't have children." What do you expect women to do who live in big
cities and who don't have cars, or the ability to drive for some reason? I don't
know a heck of a lot of people who think, gee, I COULD afford to live in a
gated community with a name like Whispering Willow Estate, and I COULD send the
butler out to the grocery store, so I could stay home with Muffy. But instead,
I think I'll go move to a bad neighborhood in a strange city 2000 miles from
home, where I don't know a soul and my husband has just deserted me. Then I'll
pop on over to the grocery store at rush hour, while the bus is still
running! What fun...
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/19/2003 10:41:49 PM Eastern Standard Time,
RJHill241@... writes:
doing respite care for other foster parents. I can almost picture the girl you
are describing, as I've seen children like her quite a few times. There is
one boy in our program with all the traits you are describing. The foster
family that has him and his sister are saints...have stuck by this kid through
unbelievable behaviors...waited years for him to go to a "famous" attachment
disorder doctor, and he is finally beginning to turn around a tiny bit. Still, he
has so far to go and may never change completely and may end up hospitalized.
We were lucky...our adopted son (was a foster son) made a huge turnaround.
Don't know what we did right, maybe it had nothing to do with us. But I think
we've just been really, really lucky that the 3 kids we were placed with DON'T
have the problems you are describing (and the one with similar behaviors got
past them).
Nancy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
RJHill241@... writes:
> We have all hadRhonda - we have had children like this in our home for short periods, when
> people ask us how we could possibly love such a child. The answer is, it
> takes
> work but she is still worthy of being loved. She is still a child. She has
> issues most people will never deal with in their whole lifetimes, wrapped up
> in
> one body.
>
doing respite care for other foster parents. I can almost picture the girl you
are describing, as I've seen children like her quite a few times. There is
one boy in our program with all the traits you are describing. The foster
family that has him and his sister are saints...have stuck by this kid through
unbelievable behaviors...waited years for him to go to a "famous" attachment
disorder doctor, and he is finally beginning to turn around a tiny bit. Still, he
has so far to go and may never change completely and may end up hospitalized.
We were lucky...our adopted son (was a foster son) made a huge turnaround.
Don't know what we did right, maybe it had nothing to do with us. But I think
we've just been really, really lucky that the 3 kids we were placed with DON'T
have the problems you are describing (and the one with similar behaviors got
past them).
Nancy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/19/2003 8:44:01 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
OomYaaqub@... writes:
because of it.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
OomYaaqub@... writes:
> He sounds as if he is temperamentally gifted. Don't laugh, this is indeedIt sounds like he was treated respectfully and he is respectful of others
> a
> gift, as much as being a talented artist or a fantastic musician.
>
because of it.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/19/2003 8:56:18 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
OomYaaqub@... writes:
while?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
OomYaaqub@... writes:
> What do you expect women to do who live in bigCould you PLEASE stop they hypothetical, snarky examples and READ for a
> cities and who don't have cars, or the ability to drive for some reason? I
> don't
> know a heck of a lot of people who think, gee, I COULD afford to live in a
> gated community with a name like Whispering Willow Estate, and I COULD send
> the
> butler out to the grocery store, so I could stay home with Muffy.
while?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jon and Rue Kream
>>> What do you expect women to do who live in bigI
> cities and who don't have cars, or the ability to drive for some reason?
> don'tsend
> know a heck of a lot of people who think, gee, I COULD afford to live in a
> gated community with a name like Whispering Willow Estate, and I COULD
> theGeez, Oom, I feel like I'm reliving a nightmare from a couple of weeks ago
> butler out to the grocery store, so I could stay home with Muffy.
on another list. Oh, wait, I am. Remember when you described my
'suburban', physically fit life, and I told you that you were way off?
Remember when you said I must have 'dainty and well behaved' daughters?
Remember we talked about spanking and how you can rationalize it all you
want but it is NEVER necessary? Remember we talked about what we do when
one child doesn't want to do what the family 'has' to do? Remember we
talked about the fact that there are families where children are given
freedom to make all of their own choices? Deja-vu all over again.
I know that you've been told very nicely in the past couple of weeks that
your posts come across as rude and offensive. I see that you've decided not
to let that affect your posting style.
You are on an(other) unschooling list. You are not going to find a lot of
support here for parenting methods that rely on the underlying premise that
parents and children are adversaries. I sincerely hope that you won't find
it on ANY unschooling list.
The amount of anger that you spew in your emails is really astounding to me.
The fact that they're so filled with sexism, insults, and disrespect for
children saddens me. ~Rue
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
<<If I had an intense child that was sure NOT to hold my hand in a dangerous
area, and I knew this about them, it's MY fault if I get us into a situation,
not the childs!!! yikes.>>
<<That sounds a lot like "if you aren't upper middle class, able-bodied and
white, don't have children." What do you expect women to do who live in big
cities and who don't have cars, or the ability to drive for some reason?>>
Cope, that's what you do. I was separated from my husband for 6 months once
and I took off with my then 4 year old son to a harsh city - South Bronx, New
York. Had no car, no job, no baby-sitter and little money and we stayed with a
friend who worked all the time. There was drugs and violence like I've never
seen. The bus was always an issue. My son was use to a car and hated the bus,
he would give me such a hard time getting on the bus but even then I learned
the best times of his days and what favorite toy or snack to take and so on that
made it so much easier. My son was a typical almost 5 year old, hyper and
defiant but we coped and it was not easy. I think that if you are living in the
slums or rich and famous, we can all cope....if we want.
Kim
area, and I knew this about them, it's MY fault if I get us into a situation,
not the childs!!! yikes.>>
<<That sounds a lot like "if you aren't upper middle class, able-bodied and
white, don't have children." What do you expect women to do who live in big
cities and who don't have cars, or the ability to drive for some reason?>>
Cope, that's what you do. I was separated from my husband for 6 months once
and I took off with my then 4 year old son to a harsh city - South Bronx, New
York. Had no car, no job, no baby-sitter and little money and we stayed with a
friend who worked all the time. There was drugs and violence like I've never
seen. The bus was always an issue. My son was use to a car and hated the bus,
he would give me such a hard time getting on the bus but even then I learned
the best times of his days and what favorite toy or snack to take and so on that
made it so much easier. My son was a typical almost 5 year old, hyper and
defiant but we coped and it was not easy. I think that if you are living in the
slums or rich and famous, we can all cope....if we want.
Kim
Pamela Sorooshian
People aren't condemning those who are living in super difficult
circumstances for doing what they are stuck doing. So, if you remember
that the suggestions are intended for whomever can use them, and don't
be defensive, you might find there are some suggestions here and there
that actually DO help you make life easier.
I honestly do not believe that slapping a kid will make life easier in
the long run EVEN if it stops the misbehavior that particular time.
-pam
circumstances for doing what they are stuck doing. So, if you remember
that the suggestions are intended for whomever can use them, and don't
be defensive, you might find there are some suggestions here and there
that actually DO help you make life easier.
I honestly do not believe that slapping a kid will make life easier in
the long run EVEN if it stops the misbehavior that particular time.
-pam
On Saturday, July 19, 2003, at 07:55 PM, OomYaaqub@... wrote:
> In a message dated 7/19/2003 9:11:24 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> starsuncloud@... writes:
>
>> If I had an intense child that was sure NOT to hold my hand in a
>> dangerous
>> area, and I knew this about them, it's MY fault if I get us into a
>> situation,
>> not the childs!!! yikes.
>
> That sounds a lot like "if you aren't upper middle class, able-bodied
> and
> white, don't have children." What do you expect women to do who live
> in big
> cities and who don't have cars, or the ability to drive for some
> reason? I don't
> know a heck of a lot of people who think, gee, I COULD afford to live
> in a
> gated community with a name like Whispering Willow Estate, and I COULD
> send the
> butler out to the grocery store, so I could stay home with Muffy. But
> instead,
> I think I'll go move to a bad neighborhood in a strange city 2000
> miles from
> home, where I don't know a soul and my husband has just deserted me.
> Then I'll
> pop on over to the grocery store at rush hour, while the bus is still
> running! What fun...
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
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In a message dated 7/20/03 5:39:23 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
pamsoroosh@... writes:
parent is around but that does not mean that the behavior will not continue
when the parent is not around. I have been dealing with that. A friend of my
sons. His parents spank. He is quite nice when they are around but if he comes
over alone he is a horror. So much anger and destruction, quite the bully.
I have had to limit the times he comes to our house. If the boys want him
over we make a picnic out of it and the parents come along. Although they have
never spanked in front of us they threaten the child. That is always a tough
one to explain to my boys but I try to be honest and we talk about why we do
things the way we do in our family. My boys know that I was spanked growing up.
etc etc.
Pam G.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
pamsoroosh@... writes:
> I honestly do not believe that slapping a kid will make life easier inAnd swatting a child may stop the behavior for that moment or even when the
> the long run EVEN if it stops the misbehavior that particular time.
>
>
parent is around but that does not mean that the behavior will not continue
when the parent is not around. I have been dealing with that. A friend of my
sons. His parents spank. He is quite nice when they are around but if he comes
over alone he is a horror. So much anger and destruction, quite the bully.
I have had to limit the times he comes to our house. If the boys want him
over we make a picnic out of it and the parents come along. Although they have
never spanked in front of us they threaten the child. That is always a tough
one to explain to my boys but I try to be honest and we talk about why we do
things the way we do in our family. My boys know that I was spanked growing up.
etc etc.
Pam G.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ren
"Trust me, I have a biology degree and I do know some
things. Boys are relatively "retarded" in these areas, and yet they
tend to be if anything MORE active at a younger age, so the potential for getting themselves into danger should be obvious. And no, it isn't possible to just talk them out of it. I don't think anyone who has only raised girls fully understands just how much trouble little boys can get themselves into, things that wouldn't even occur to the average mom until they happen, because as a general rule we just don't think the way they do! "
No, I don't trust anything you say at this point.
You may know some things, but not enough about unschooling and raising children for me to trust what you say.
The entire above paragraph made me physically ill. I can't believe a person that claims to know so much can say boys are relatively "retarded" in those areas. Sick.
You act like you are the only one at this list that has intense, active boys. Like we all have quiet, complacent girls that don't question anything just because we advocate peaceful respectful parenting.
You couldn't be more wrong.
I have three boys, one is very calm and peaceable. I have a girl that is not. I think more girls are complacent and agreeable because that was the only acceptable thing in our society for so long.
I have a two year old that is an incredibly intense boy.
He uses knives to cut his food, when I say "that knife is too sharp, let's use a different one" he immedietly hands it to me.
Why?
Because he trusts that I want him to get what he wants/needs also. I am not his adversary.
He had three melt downs at the health food co-op the other day. Each time I talked calmly until he listened and then explained to him that the candy he wanted had to be paid for first (only because it was in bulk) and then I would give it to him. He was able to calm down and listen because we DO have this trust and respect.
If I yell "STOP" it is for a good reason, and he knows it. Does this mean it's safe to trust him around cars? Of course not, he doesn't understand the danger. But to smack him would hurt the trust we have built and he'd be MUCH less likely to listen to me when he really needs to.
Ren, disgusted.
things. Boys are relatively "retarded" in these areas, and yet they
tend to be if anything MORE active at a younger age, so the potential for getting themselves into danger should be obvious. And no, it isn't possible to just talk them out of it. I don't think anyone who has only raised girls fully understands just how much trouble little boys can get themselves into, things that wouldn't even occur to the average mom until they happen, because as a general rule we just don't think the way they do! "
No, I don't trust anything you say at this point.
You may know some things, but not enough about unschooling and raising children for me to trust what you say.
The entire above paragraph made me physically ill. I can't believe a person that claims to know so much can say boys are relatively "retarded" in those areas. Sick.
You act like you are the only one at this list that has intense, active boys. Like we all have quiet, complacent girls that don't question anything just because we advocate peaceful respectful parenting.
You couldn't be more wrong.
I have three boys, one is very calm and peaceable. I have a girl that is not. I think more girls are complacent and agreeable because that was the only acceptable thing in our society for so long.
I have a two year old that is an incredibly intense boy.
He uses knives to cut his food, when I say "that knife is too sharp, let's use a different one" he immedietly hands it to me.
Why?
Because he trusts that I want him to get what he wants/needs also. I am not his adversary.
He had three melt downs at the health food co-op the other day. Each time I talked calmly until he listened and then explained to him that the candy he wanted had to be paid for first (only because it was in bulk) and then I would give it to him. He was able to calm down and listen because we DO have this trust and respect.
If I yell "STOP" it is for a good reason, and he knows it. Does this mean it's safe to trust him around cars? Of course not, he doesn't understand the danger. But to smack him would hurt the trust we have built and he'd be MUCH less likely to listen to me when he really needs to.
Ren, disgusted.
Betjeman and Barton Tea Merchants
***"Trust me, I have a biology degree and I do know some
things. Boys are relatively "retarded" in these areas, and yet they
tend to be if anything MORE active at a younger age, so the potential for getting themselves into danger should be obvious. ****
I have a BS in biology (UNC-CH) too and I don't remember them teaching that sort of thing in any of my classes. Sounds like something that might come out of a psych class. I took a few psych classes along the way and personally, I think you are talking out your rear end..
Of course I only have one peaceful trusting little girl so what do I know... (even with a biology degree)
Karen (in CT)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
things. Boys are relatively "retarded" in these areas, and yet they
tend to be if anything MORE active at a younger age, so the potential for getting themselves into danger should be obvious. ****
I have a BS in biology (UNC-CH) too and I don't remember them teaching that sort of thing in any of my classes. Sounds like something that might come out of a psych class. I took a few psych classes along the way and personally, I think you are talking out your rear end..
Of course I only have one peaceful trusting little girl so what do I know... (even with a biology degree)
Karen (in CT)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sarah
Don't forget blatant racism!!
Sarah
See my/our blog: http://www.bruceportal.com
<http://www.bruceportal.com/>
-----Original Message-----
From: Jon and Rue Kream [mailto:skreams@...]
Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2003 10:34 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: [Unschooling-Discussion] A drug problem
The fact that they're so filled with sexism, insults, and disrespect for
children saddens me. ~Rue
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sarah
See my/our blog: http://www.bruceportal.com
<http://www.bruceportal.com/>
-----Original Message-----
From: Jon and Rue Kream [mailto:skreams@...]
Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2003 10:34 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: [Unschooling-Discussion] A drug problem
The fact that they're so filled with sexism, insults, and disrespect for
children saddens me. ~Rue
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jon and Rue Kream
>>Don't forget blatant racism!!Yes, Sarah, that too. ~Rue
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Deborah Lewis
***He sounds as if he is temperamentally gifted. Don't laugh, this is
indeed a
gift, as much as being a talented artist or a fantastic musician. ***
He is a person who cares about himself and others because he has no
reason not to. The people he loves respect his feelings and he respects
theirs.
If he want's to be an artist or musician he will be... no one's ever told
him he needed special gifts to do those things. He's not limited by
"gifts" or a lack thereof.
Deb L
indeed a
gift, as much as being a talented artist or a fantastic musician. ***
He is a person who cares about himself and others because he has no
reason not to. The people he loves respect his feelings and he respects
theirs.
If he want's to be an artist or musician he will be... no one's ever told
him he needed special gifts to do those things. He's not limited by
"gifts" or a lack thereof.
Deb L
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/20/2003 5:39:16 AM Eastern Standard Time,
pamsoroosh@... writes:
just then, but forever. It may well have been the shock value IN ADDITION to
the the fact that a bunch of on-lookers so heartifly agreed with me that
impressed him. The pain itself, through a pair of thick winter pants, could not have
hurt much, if at all.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
pamsoroosh@... writes:
> People aren't condemning those who are living in super difficultI understand. I do think know that in this particular case, it worked, not
> circumstances for doing what they are stuck doing. So, if you remember
> that the suggestions are intended for whomever can use them, and don't
> be defensive, you might find there are some suggestions here and there
> that actually DO help you make life easier.
>
> I honestly do not believe that slapping a kid will make life easier in
> the long run EVEN if it stops the misbehavior that particular time.
>
> -pam
just then, but forever. It may well have been the shock value IN ADDITION to
the the fact that a bunch of on-lookers so heartifly agreed with me that
impressed him. The pain itself, through a pair of thick winter pants, could not have
hurt much, if at all.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
averyschmidt
>It may well have been the shock value IN ADDITION topants, could not have
> the the fact that a bunch of on-lookers so heartifly agreed with
>me that
> impressed him. The pain itself, through a pair of thick winter
> hurt much, if at all.As a formerly spanked child myself, I can assure you that the public
humiliation likely felt much worse. I shudder to imagine how that
child felt to have a crowd of big people cheering on the big person
who smacked him. The main lesson of a spanking is that "might makes
right," and that lesson was reinforced by the cheering on-lookers.
Personally, I want to cheer when I see a parent speaking gently and
respectfully to his/her child, and handling difficult moments with
patience and self-control.
Instead of cheering you on while you smacked your child in
desperation, why didn't one of those on-lookers help you with your
groceries so you'd have your hands free to get your child safely on
the bus without resorting to violence? That's what I would have
done.
Patti
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/20/03 10:06:08 PM, OomYaaqub@... writes:
<< I understand. I do think know that in this particular case, it worked,
not
just then, but forever. It may well have been the shock value IN ADDITION to
the the fact that a bunch of on-lookers so heartifly agreed with me that
impressed him. The pain itself, through a pair of thick winter pants, could
not have
hurt much, if at all. >>
Are you going to say soon that the crowd didn't REALLY cheer you and that you
really don't believe in spanking?
Sandra
<< I understand. I do think know that in this particular case, it worked,
not
just then, but forever. It may well have been the shock value IN ADDITION to
the the fact that a bunch of on-lookers so heartifly agreed with me that
impressed him. The pain itself, through a pair of thick winter pants, could
not have
hurt much, if at all. >>
Are you going to say soon that the crowd didn't REALLY cheer you and that you
really don't believe in spanking?
Sandra
Lisa M. Cottrell Bentley
> If I yell "STOP" it is for a good reason, and he knows it. Does this meanit's safe to trust him around cars? Of course not, he doesn't understand the
danger. But to smack him would hurt the trust we have built and he'd be MUCH
less likely to listen to me when he really needs to.
>Friday night my family went out with another mostly-unschooling family (they
don't call it unschooling, but they live it more than anyone else that I
know). Anyway, we saw a progressive play where you walk around with a guide
on to each part. They have a just turned 3 year old wonderful outgoing boy.
Our group was about 30 people and their boy wandered around the group as we
walked. He was totally safe and very kind and respectful to all the people
around us. At the end, we were led into the parking lot, their boy followed
in with the crowd. It just so happened that none of the adults in our party
were close to him at that second. The father leapt ahead, found the boy
walking on a log, hugged him in a not scared way, then very calmly and
politely started pointing out the cars around us. The boy calmly noticed
the cars for the first time, so the father continued in his calm and gentle
voice telling him how it scared him for the boy to be around those big cars
especially at night when he was so little and wouldn't be seen. It was an
amazing conversation that made me want my family to spend more time with
their family. No yelling, no screaming, everyone was listened to and
everyone was heard. The boy had done nothing "wrong", but he was well aware
to look out a bit more in the future. (Meanwhile my almost 3 year old
refused to leave my arms, not that I minded.)
Children do listen when they are talked to. Maybe not always, but like the
logical people in this world, if they are regularly respected they will
regularly respect. In a busy street scene, my kids know exactly where I
need them to be and what their options are for their (and my) safety. I
have had some challenging moments with my oldest in the past (with regard to
car safety), but after we were all calmed down we had some very enlightening
conversations- she really did not realize that people could be squished and
killed. I hadn't wanted to scare her with details of that, but she was
quite interested to find out it really could happen. Hitting on a street is
not an option, pulling a person (any person) back from a moving vehicle is,
of course, but it doesn't sound like that was what the problem was. I agree
that anyone who applauds at a mother for hitting her child should be
ashamed.
-Lisa in AZ
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/21/2003 6:17:46 AM Eastern Standard Time,
cottrellbentley@... writes:
We are having this conversation on an adoptive board I frequent...same thing,
spanking is OK when the kid's going out into the street.
I suggested taking the child to very busy intersections way ahead of time,
before they begin "running into the street" (of course holding very tight to the
hand) and letting them see how big the cars are, how fast, powerful, etc
(having visions of busy Los Angeles corners from my childhood). Talk about how
dangerous it would be to walk out right in front of them and what would happen.
Next time you see a dead possum or squirrel or dog or whatever on the side of
the road, point it out...that poor animal ran out in front of a car. They
don't know any better, but we do!
Nancy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
cottrellbentley@... writes:
> but after we were all calmed down we had some very enlighteningGreat post! What a sweet dad.
> conversations- she really did not realize that people could be squished and
> killed. I hadn't wanted to scare her with details of that, but she was
> quite interested to find out it really could happen.
We are having this conversation on an adoptive board I frequent...same thing,
spanking is OK when the kid's going out into the street.
I suggested taking the child to very busy intersections way ahead of time,
before they begin "running into the street" (of course holding very tight to the
hand) and letting them see how big the cars are, how fast, powerful, etc
(having visions of busy Los Angeles corners from my childhood). Talk about how
dangerous it would be to walk out right in front of them and what would happen.
Next time you see a dead possum or squirrel or dog or whatever on the side of
the road, point it out...that poor animal ran out in front of a car. They
don't know any better, but we do!
Nancy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Backstrom kelli
We live on a very busy street (especially in the summer with all of the tourists) in Gloucester MA. I think about that street all the time. We have a great big back yard but the only way to get to our cars is to go outside the front way, right next to all of those cars racing down the road. Now, when I say I think about this often, I mean it! I have a newly turned three year old rambunctious energetic little girl. She loves to run from me, she loves to hide from me, she thinks all of these games are hysterical:) I do the same exact thing that your friend did with his son, with my little Sadie. Every day when we go out there I explain this to her, that I love her so much that I want her to always be with me (and her two sisters) and those cars out there could really hurt her. I tell her if she is acting particularly impatient that day, that this scares me, please hold my hand... and do you know, that kid knows a heck of a lot about cars for a three year old. She practically could
cross the street on her own (not that I would ever let her now) she looks both ways and she holds onto my hands. I couldnt imagine hitting her over this... I really couldn't. Kelli
"Lisa M. Cottrell Bentley" <cottrellbentley@...> wrote:> If I yell "STOP" it is for a good reason, and he knows it. Does this mean
it's safe to trust him around cars? Of course not, he doesn't understand the
danger. But to smack him would hurt the trust we have built and he'd be MUCH
less likely to listen to me when he really needs to.
don't call it unschooling, but they live it more than anyone else that I
know). Anyway, we saw a progressive play where you walk around with a guide
on to each part. They have a just turned 3 year old wonderful outgoing boy.
Our group was about 30 people and their boy wandered around the group as we
walked. He was totally safe and very kind and respectful to all the people
around us. At the end, we were led into the parking lot, their boy followed
in with the crowd. It just so happened that none of the adults in our party
were close to him at that second. The father leapt ahead, found the boy
walking on a log, hugged him in a not scared way, then very calmly and
politely started pointing out the cars around us. The boy calmly noticed
the cars for the first time, so the father continued in his calm and gentle
voice telling him how it scared him for the boy to be around those big cars
especially at night when he was so little and wouldn't be seen. It was an
amazing conversation that made me want my family to spend more time with
their family. No yelling, no screaming, everyone was listened to and
everyone was heard. The boy had done nothing "wrong", but he was well aware
to look out a bit more in the future. (Meanwhile my almost 3 year old
refused to leave my arms, not that I minded.)
Children do listen when they are talked to. Maybe not always, but like the
logical people in this world, if they are regularly respected they will
regularly respect. In a busy street scene, my kids know exactly where I
need them to be and what their options are for their (and my) safety. I
have had some challenging moments with my oldest in the past (with regard to
car safety), but after we were all calmed down we had some very enlightening
conversations- she really did not realize that people could be squished and
killed. I hadn't wanted to scare her with details of that, but she was
quite interested to find out it really could happen. Hitting on a street is
not an option, pulling a person (any person) back from a moving vehicle is,
of course, but it doesn't sound like that was what the problem was. I agree
that anyone who applauds at a mother for hitting her child should be
ashamed.
-Lisa in AZ
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
cross the street on her own (not that I would ever let her now) she looks both ways and she holds onto my hands. I couldnt imagine hitting her over this... I really couldn't. Kelli
"Lisa M. Cottrell Bentley" <cottrellbentley@...> wrote:> If I yell "STOP" it is for a good reason, and he knows it. Does this mean
it's safe to trust him around cars? Of course not, he doesn't understand the
danger. But to smack him would hurt the trust we have built and he'd be MUCH
less likely to listen to me when he really needs to.
>Friday night my family went out with another mostly-unschooling family (they
don't call it unschooling, but they live it more than anyone else that I
know). Anyway, we saw a progressive play where you walk around with a guide
on to each part. They have a just turned 3 year old wonderful outgoing boy.
Our group was about 30 people and their boy wandered around the group as we
walked. He was totally safe and very kind and respectful to all the people
around us. At the end, we were led into the parking lot, their boy followed
in with the crowd. It just so happened that none of the adults in our party
were close to him at that second. The father leapt ahead, found the boy
walking on a log, hugged him in a not scared way, then very calmly and
politely started pointing out the cars around us. The boy calmly noticed
the cars for the first time, so the father continued in his calm and gentle
voice telling him how it scared him for the boy to be around those big cars
especially at night when he was so little and wouldn't be seen. It was an
amazing conversation that made me want my family to spend more time with
their family. No yelling, no screaming, everyone was listened to and
everyone was heard. The boy had done nothing "wrong", but he was well aware
to look out a bit more in the future. (Meanwhile my almost 3 year old
refused to leave my arms, not that I minded.)
Children do listen when they are talked to. Maybe not always, but like the
logical people in this world, if they are regularly respected they will
regularly respect. In a busy street scene, my kids know exactly where I
need them to be and what their options are for their (and my) safety. I
have had some challenging moments with my oldest in the past (with regard to
car safety), but after we were all calmed down we had some very enlightening
conversations- she really did not realize that people could be squished and
killed. I hadn't wanted to scare her with details of that, but she was
quite interested to find out it really could happen. Hitting on a street is
not an option, pulling a person (any person) back from a moving vehicle is,
of course, but it doesn't sound like that was what the problem was. I agree
that anyone who applauds at a mother for hitting her child should be
ashamed.
-Lisa in AZ
Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list owner, Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address an email to:
[email protected]
Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
---------------------------------
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