Maggy

An old high school friend emailed this to me today and I was thinking how sad and true it was for so many people. When I got to the last line I had to read it over and over and it took me awhile to get it. Then I realized that the whole thing was meant to be digested in a whole different manner than what I got out of it. It made me feel even sadder for all those people...



I had a drug problem when I was young.

I was drug to church on Sunday morning.

I was drug to church for wedding and funerals.

I was drug to family reunions no matter the weather.

I was drug to the bus stop to go to school every weekday.

I was drug by my ears when I was disrespectful to adults and teachers.

I was also drug to the woodshed when I disobeyed my parents.

Those drugs are still in my veins; and they affect my behavior in
everything I do, say, and think.


They are stronger than cocaine, crack, or heroin, and if today's children
had this kind of drug problem, America just might be a better place.

signed, an old fart


Whaaaaat???????? This gives me chills, bad chills........

Isn't this the kind of upbringing that would draw people to cocaine, crack, or heroin?


Maggy

A Mother's Touch Photography
http://pages.ivillage.com/momaggy2/





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Kelli Traaseth

----- Original Message -----
From: "Maggy" <isaacray@...>

**Isn't this the kind of upbringing that would draw people to cocaine,
crack, or heroin?**


Yep.

We had this drug problem in our family, and yes it turned itself into other
drug problems.

My brother, my cousins, my aunts, uncles....the list goes on.


* **Those drugs are still in my veins; and they affect my behavior in
everything I do, say, and think.


They are stronger than cocaine, crack, or heroin, and if today's children
had this kind of drug problem, America just might be a better place.

signed, an old fart***

Sad.

Kelli~

Backstrom kelli

UGH, that makes me incredibly sad too:(

Maggy <isaacray@...> wrote:An old high school friend emailed this to me today and I was thinking how sad and true it was for so many people. When I got to the last line I had to read it over and over and it took me awhile to get it. Then I realized that the whole thing was meant to be digested in a whole different manner than what I got out of it. It made me feel even sadder for all those people...



I had a drug problem when I was young.

I was drug to church on Sunday morning.

I was drug to church for wedding and funerals.

I was drug to family reunions no matter the weather.

I was drug to the bus stop to go to school every weekday.

I was drug by my ears when I was disrespectful to adults and teachers.

I was also drug to the woodshed when I disobeyed my parents.

Those drugs are still in my veins; and they affect my behavior in
everything I do, say, and think.


They are stronger than cocaine, crack, or heroin, and if today's children
had this kind of drug problem, America just might be a better place.

signed, an old fart


Whaaaaat???????? This gives me chills, bad chills........

Isn't this the kind of upbringing that would draw people to cocaine, crack, or heroin?


Maggy

A Mother's Touch Photography
http://pages.ivillage.com/momaggy2/





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 07/19/2003 10:17:36 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
kellibac@... writes:


> ...
>
>
>
> I had a drug problem when I was young.
>
> I was drug to church on Sunday morning.
>
> I was drug to church for wedding and funerals.
>
> I was drug to family reunions no matter the weather.
>
> I was drug to the bus stop to go to school every weekday.
>
> I was drug by my ears when I was disrespectful to adults and teachers.
>
> I was also drug to the woodshed when I disobeyed my parents.
>
> Those drugs are still in my veins; and they affect my behavior in
> everything I do, say, and think.
>
>
> They are stronger than cocaine, crack, or heroin, and if today's children
> had this kind of drug problem, America just might be a better place.
>
> signed, an old fart
>
>
> Whaaaaat???????? This gives me chills, bad chills........
>
> Isn't this the kind of upbringing that would draw people to cocaine, crack,
> or heroin?

Do you really believe that being taken to church as a child, even against
your will, is what turns you into a drug addict later on?

We can agree to disagree about spanking--I think it is acceptable for very
young children when they do something dangerous like run into the street. And
obviously we all agree that kids shouldn't be forced to go to school if parents
are in a position to keep them home. But saying kids should never be forced
to do ANYTHING they don't want to do is simply unrealistic. If you took that
philosophy seriously enough, you would end up having your children removed,
since you would never even take them to the doctor's office.

I was raised by atheists who never forced me to do anything, since they
didn't give a damn about me. And I'm a former alcoholic/addict.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

OomYaaqub@... writes:

> Isn't this the kind of upbringing that would draw people to cocaine, crack,
> or heroin?

Do you really believe that being taken to church as a child, even against
your will, is what turns you into a drug addict later on? >>

IMO, when a child is constantly controlled by a parent, and then given
freedom that they have no idea to do with, drug addiction can be a danger. They
choose to let the drug become their controller.

Has nothing, specifically, to do with church or religion, altho that can be
one way to control children. Honor your mother and father can too often turn
into a power trip over kids. "You'll go to hell if you don't listen and do as I
say." I've heard it said.

<<But saying kids should never be forced
to do ANYTHING they don't want to do is simply unrealistic.
>>

What makes it unrealistic? It's my reality, and a lot of others' on the
list.

Seems very real to me.

<< I was raised by atheists who never forced me to do anything, since they
didn't give a damn about me. And I'm a former alcoholic/addict.
>>

Neglect and not forcing kids to do what the parents want them to do are not
the same. There is a middle ground.

~Aimee

nellebelle

----- Original Message -----Do you really believe that being taken to church as a child, even against
your will, is what turns you into a drug addict later on?

We can agree to disagree about spanking--I think it is acceptable for very
young children when they do something dangerous like run into the street. And
obviously we all agree that kids shouldn't be forced to go to school if parents
are in a position to keep them home. But saying kids should never be forced
to do ANYTHING they don't want to do is simply unrealistic. If you took that
philosophy seriously enough, you would end up having your children removed,
since you would never even take them to the doctor's office.

I was raised by atheists who never forced me to do anything, since they
didn't give a damn about me. And I'm a former alcoholic/addict.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I'm sorry to hear that you had a rough past.

There are many factors that may cause a person to develop addictive behaviors. It is obviously far more complex than what religion one's parents may have had or not had.

A parent can make all choices for their children because of a belief that children are not capable of making good choices. Or a parent can believe that children are capable of making good choices and the parent can do their best to help their children be informed, to trust the child to make decisions and to be there as a safety net for their children, when necessary.

I have done many things to help my children understand the danger of cars and how to safely cross streets since the day they could toddle on their own. Now they are 7 & 10 and I still make it a point to help them remember traffic safety and to model it myself. They have no reason to defiantly run into the street, and it wouldn't make sense to punish them if they did. What message does that give a small child? If you run into the street (danger) I, the person who loves you, will hit you (danger). Do you want your child to do what you ask because they fear your response if they don't? Do you want your child to later do what his teen friends ask him to do, because he has learned to do what others want for him, rather than what he wants for himself? Or do you want him to grow up knowing that his parents trust him and will be his partner, rather than his controller?

Some adults do not take their children to the doctor for regular check-ups. That doesn't equal neglect if the parent is making an informed choice and doing what they can for their family to promote wellness. Many parents do not force their children to get shots because the parent has made an informed choice that the child is better off without the shots. A child raised without vaccines can certainly choose to get them when they are older, if they wish.

Mary Ellen

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 07/19/2003 4:35:14 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
AimeeL73@... writes:


> Neglect and not forcing kids to do what the parents want them to do are not
>
> the same. There is a middle ground

So, what if your kids really, really don't want to go to the doctor? What if
they hate the taste of the medication that they must take? What if you're
out of food, and they don't want to go with you to the grocery store, and you
don't have anyone to come over and babysit? What if they "refuse" to ever be
left with a sitter, even though you as the adult have a real need to take a
class, go to a meeting that doesn't allow children, or even get away for a little
while? You have needs, too. And kids don't always know what's best for them.


I'm an unschooler because I believe kids learn best when they choose what
they want to learn, when they want to learn it. But I don't believe kids are
automatically experts on everything they need to survive. You do have the
responsibility to keep them safe until they are old enough to keep themself safe.

In my neighborhood, safety means more than just staying out of the
intersection. You can get beaten up or worse just for "dissin" somebody. So teaching
manners, social skills, and the like is very much a part of survival.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Kelli Traaseth

----- Original Message -----
From: <OomYaaqub@...>

**But saying kids should never be forced
> to do ANYTHING they don't want to do is simply unrealistic. If you took
that
> philosophy seriously enough, you would end up having your children
removed,
> since you would never even take them to the doctor's office.**

If you have an open and respectful relationship with your child, why would a
child not want to go to a doctor's office if it was going to help them feel
better? I've never had to force my child to the doctor's office. You build
a foundation, you talk with your child. There's a trust.


** I was raised by atheists who never forced me to do anything, since they
> didn't give a damn about me. And I'm a former alcoholic/addict.**


There are people who don't force their children to do things but still give
a damn about their children. I'm one of them and this list is full of
them.

Kelli~

Jon and Rue Kream

>>But saying kids should never be forced
to do ANYTHING they don't want to do is simply unrealistic.

**No, Oom, it's not unrealistic. It's happening every day right here in my
home.

>> you would end up having your children removed,
since you would never even take them to the doctor's office.

**My kids choose to go to the doctor when they don't feel well and want help
to feel better, just like I do. They choose to do things that make sense.
~Rue


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 07/19/2003 4:53:34 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
nellebelle@... writes:


> Do you want your child to do what you ask because they fear your response
> if they don't?


In an emergency situation, when he is going to be at high risk otherwise,
YES. When he is older he will be able to reason things out for himself. It is
absurd to compare a three year old with a teenager in this respect since he has
a reasoning ability that the three year old does not.

But if it comes right down it, we all SOMETIMES do things out of fear. Fear
is a biological function essential to our survival, not something to get
eliminate entirely. Why do you file your taxes on time? It can't possibly be that
you agree with everything the government is going to use the money for! You
file your taxes because you don't want to go to prison. My kids see me doing
our taxes, they know that there are things you just plain have to do, end of
discussion. I go to the library at least once a week, the kids come along
whether they feel like or not. They might spend their time playing video games on
the library computers, but they come.

Each family has their own list of things that they "just plain do". Brush
your teeth, go to religious services, whatever. Your list may not be the same
as mine but you certainly have one, whether you admit or not. It doesn't have
to be a big deal. My kids know they have a lot more freedom than most kids
their age. But nobody is absolutely free.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 07/19/2003 5:03:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
tktraas@... writes:


> If you have an open and respectful relationship with your child, why would
> a
> child not want to go to a doctor's office if it was going to help them feel
> better? I've never had to force my child to the doctor's office. You build
> a foundation, you talk with your child. There's a trust.
>

How do you tell a two year old he really, really needs to see the doctor, the
same guy or gal who has given him shots in the past? I know adults who hate
going to the doctor, and put it off to ridiculous lengths! In any case, you
are arguing with the analogy, and unrealistically denying even the possibility
that a child might refuse to do something the parent considers essential for
his well-being. It may be that YOUR kids were born with compliant
personalities, but not all kids are that way. I do not agree that this is somehow the
parent's fault. We all inherit our basic disposition and temperament. Some kids
even have conditions, ADHD for example, that make them unusually careless or
impulsive, and they need more reminders and more supervision.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 07/19/2003 5:11:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
skreams@... writes:


> **My kids choose to go to the doctor when they don't feel well and want
> help
> to feel better, just like I do. They choose to do things that make sense.
> ~Rue

But, what if they didn't? What if a very young child absolutely needs an
emergency appendectomy and she's terrified to go to the hospital? Don't we just
pick her up and take her forcibly, doing all we can to reassure her, of
course?


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pamela Sorooshian

Message to pediatricians: advise parents to limit movie access to
reduce chances of teen smoking


HANOVER, NH � Dartmouth researchers have taken their published data on
the connections between adolescent smoking and watching movies and are
now advising pediatricians to urge parents to monitor their teens'
access to movies and abide by the ratings guidelines sponsored by the
Motion Picture Association of America and the National Association of
Theatre Owners.

The researchers are from Dartmouth Medical School, Dartmouth College
and the Norris Cotton Cancer Center at Dartmouth-Hitchcock Medical
Center, and their study appears in the July issue of Archives of
Pediatric Adolescent Medicine. The research was supported by the
National Cancer Institute.

"We want pediatricians to talk with parents of adolescents about how
movies can influence their young teenagers," says James Sargent, a
pediatrician with the Norris Cotton Cancer Center and an associate
professor at Dartmouth Medical School.

"Parents need to know that if they can reduce their child's exposure to
smoking in movies, it may have a profound impact on reducing their
chances of starting to smoke and drink." Sargent's team studies
adolescent behavior and how it's linked to exposure to movies. They
have published numerous papers and articles, which this most current
study cites. According to this body of research, adolescents see
thousands of depictions of smoking by movie stars, and these images
influence their attitude and behavior.

Now, Sargent and his colleagues urge pediatricians to use the published
data (see "Related Findings" below) to offer specific advice to parents
on how to limit access to movies, such as reducing subscriptions to
movie channels, limiting videos to one per week, and restricting access
to R-rated movies. They conclude that, "Such parenting measures could
reduce rates of adolescent smoking without directly addressing the
behavior."


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pamela Sorooshian

What if what if what if --- ALL the negative stuff that happens on this
list comes from people arguing about "what ifs." Let's talk about
reality, okay?

-pam


On Saturday, July 19, 2003, at 01:53 PM, OomYaaqub@... wrote:

> So, what if your kids really, really don't want to go to the doctor?
> What if
> they hate the taste of the medication that they must take? What if
> you're
> out of food, and they don't want to go with you to the grocery store,
> and you
> don't have anyone to come over and babysit? What if they "refuse" to
> ever be
> left with a sitter, even though you as the adult have a real need to
> take a
> class, go to a meeting that doesn't allow children, or even get away
> for a little
> while? You have needs, too. And kids don't always know what's best
> for them.

Kelli Traaseth

----- Original Message -----
From: <OomYaaqub@...>

** It may be that YOUR kids were born with compliant
> personalities, but not all kids are that way. **

I do have a son who is that way, not compliant in some peoples terms, but I
would make it work. Its what brought us to unschooling. I remember when
he was a toddler and he didn't want eye drops in his eyes. We talked and
talked and talked. He would eventually let us, he hated, I hated it, but
he allowed us to do it. It was a medication that he *had* to take. He also
has allergies and asthma. So I've dealth with meds alot. If he didn't like
the taste I would figure out a way to hide it. And if he really wasn't in
dire need, that medication wasn't worth it. There are ways of making our
children's lives more peaceful and that's why I am here.

As far as an apendectomy,, please,,,if a child were going to die.... I
think these are extreme examples. Of course we would do a life saving
procedure for a child. But people are not talking about that.

You are going to the extremes.

**Some kids
> even have conditions, ADHD for example, that make them unusually careless
or
> impulsive, and they need more reminders and more supervision. **

My son has sensory integration issues, Asperger related and would probably
be classified as ADHD if he were in school, but we talk and figure it out.
Yes it was more difficult when he was younger, we had to be more patient.
There are solutions and alternatives.

Kelli~

[email protected]

In a message dated 7-19-2003 3:31:04 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
OomYaaqub@... writes:

> >**My kids choose to go to the doctor when they don't feel well and want
> >help
> >to feel better, just like I do. They choose to do things that make sense.
> >~Rue
>
> But, what if they didn't? What if a very young child absolutely needs an
> emergency appendectomy and she's terrified to go to the hospital? Don't we
> just
> pick her up and take her forcibly, doing all we can to reassure her, of
> course?
>

This is a funny analogy and I must respond. My children have a very healthy
fear of Western medicine ~ they saw firsthand the effects of *cancer
treatment* on their daddy (cancer didn't make him sick, but that chemo sure did!!) At
4 & 2 they were perfect skeptics <bg> But this journey began looooong before
daddy's illness ~ I trusted *my* body to do it's job to grow and birthe these
babies, I trusted them to nurse whenever they needed, to sleep whenever they
needed, to heal whatever bug infiltrated their system. I trusted my children to
be whole, complete and perfect at birth: their genitals are intact and I
waived the state/federal mandated *treatments* (e.g. eye goo, vit K, vaccinations)
for them.
My best example of this faith in action: Hayden was about 3 and his penis got
slammed by the falling toilet seat. He calmly came out of the bathroom and
asked for a Band-Aid, without even looking, I found one for him and asked where
he wanted it ~ imagine my shock when I saw the *purple grape* where his
perfect lil penis had been, just moments before. I completely freaked out, and he
shut down, not giving me any information. I put the Band-Aid on the *wound*
and let him be (so I could calm the %$#*&^* down and gain perspective). After
calling my trusted Aunt Donna, I remembered how resilient our bodies are and I
knew worst case scenarios for my two choices ~ at the hospital: the horror on
the faces of strangers while looking at his penis, the circumstraint (aka the
Velcro crucifix), the medications to *calm the patient*, the forcible
retraction of his adhered foreskin and probable/likely circumcision, tetanus shot ~
at home: penile dysfunction, urinary issues, infection ... a HUGE leap of
faith, I watched his function closely, he could still pee without pain, though the
sight was still shocking, I could accept his body healing itself. And it did!
I am so glad I didn't have to put my baby thru any unnecessary trauma in the
name of *the right thing to do* (seeing mommy meltdown was enough!). We
discuss regularly what constitutes a necessary visit to the doctor and what we can
care for ourselves (with meds or without). When a trauma occurs, like the
one above, I'm honest and open about being able to heal ourselves and the
necessity of seeing a professional (NOT necessarily an MD).
So no, I don't see forcing our kids to do things arbitrarily an effective
parenting practice. We do grocery shopping because it's necessary, but we do it
together because it's fun. We go to fellowship almost every Sunday, not
because it's *required* but because it's fun (if majority wants to stay home, we
all stay home). Not to say I don't fall back on the *familiar* ways of
parenting, I get crabby and tired too, but in the forefront of my mind is my child's
perspective and the lessons they are learning from my behaviors and my
parenting choices. Unschooling LIFE is my current project. The leftover shadows of
authoritarian parenting are diminishing and my children are flourishing (so am
I!!). I trust that I have the right children and they have the right mom ~
having them and this life has led us right where we need to be ~ and I like it
here <bg>

diana,
The wackiest widow westriver...
“Relationships are a prerequisite for producing results beyond ourselves.
They expand our imaginations to infinite possibilities that cannot exist in a
life of isolation." --Brian Koslow


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pamela Sorooshian

On Saturday, July 19, 2003, at 02:09 PM, OomYaaqub@... wrote:

> In an emergency situation, when he is going to be at high risk
> otherwise,
> YES.

Your job as a parent is to protect them. So control their environment -
hold their hands when you're near streets, etc. No need to use negative
conditioning like swatting them when they get near a street - that puts
the onus on them to protect themselves. You can't count on it ANYWAY -
no matter how much negative conditioning you've used it may fail in an
emergency.

-pam

Pamela Sorooshian

On Saturday, July 19, 2003, at 02:18 PM, OomYaaqub@... wrote:

> It may be that YOUR kids were born with compliant
> personalities, but not all kids are that way.

I agree with this 100 percent - those who haven't had kids who are
simply born with temperaments that are noncompliant contrary
ultrasensitive and so on really don't know what it is like. I know a
kid <g> who ran every single time her feet hit the ground - from the
time she was nine months old. She had to be held sometimes - when we
were getting on an airplane, for example, whether she liked it or not.
What is unrealistic is to think I'd have ALWAYS have planned ahead for
all possible contingencies. She's 18 now and I'm just saying goodbye to
her because she's going on a 4 month trip by herself - visiting
unschooling friends all over the country. She's STILL impulsive and
high-energy and, yes, noncompliant - a whole lot like her mom <G>.
Luckily she's also very intelligent and reasonable and people-smart and
loves life. I'll actually get to SEE her for a couple of days a month
from now at the Sacramento conference. YAY!!!!

-pam

Pamela Sorooshian

Using these kinds of "what ifs" isn't helpful in understanding our
day-to-day interactions with our kids.

-pam


On Saturday, July 19, 2003, at 02:30 PM, OomYaaqub@... wrote:

> But, what if they didn't? What if a very young child absolutely needs
> an
> emergency appendectomy and she's terrified to go to the hospital?
> Don't we just
> pick her up and take her forcibly, doing all we can to reassure her, of
> course?

Gerard Westenberg

<<I'm an unschooler because I believe kids learn best when they choose what
they want to learn, when they want to learn it. But I don't believe kids are
automatically experts on everything they need to survive. >>>

And, no-one n this list will *make you accept this trusting kids philosophy. If unschooling, to you, extends to freedom in learning but some restrictions in other areas of family life, you will not be forced to change by anyone on this list. Everyone reads the emails and decides, some with their dc, what works for them. Take what you like from the unshool list but don't feel that you have to prove the philosophy wrong to those who feel it is working :-) ...Leonie


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 07/19/2003 5:50:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
pamsoroosh@... writes:


>
>
>
> What if what if what if --- ALL the negative stuff that happens on this
> list comes from people arguing about "what ifs." Let's talk about
> reality, okay?
>
> -pam

Um, I am. I was talking about reality as I have lived it with my own kids.
There may be some sweet little girls out there who always go along with
whatever their mommy wants when it is "explained" to them, but I have two very
active boys. One of them was diagnosed as having "oppositional defiant disorder"
while my dh and I were separated, although he is acting much better now that
we're back together. Nevertheless, there have been many times when I simply had
to force him to do things he didn't want to do! He's too young to stay home
alone so if the parents go somewhere, he HAS to come along. (I do not drive
due to a medical problem, so I have to take him when the bus is coming, not when
he might be in a better mood. I live hundreds of miles from the nearest
relative and certainly can't afford baby sitters.) Neither child enjoys doctor
and dentist visits, but they know that certain things are simply nonnegotiable
and that's one of them. This is simply reality as an inner city mom without a
car experiences it. It isn't the least bit hypothetical.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 07/19/2003 6:07:01 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
tktraas@... writes:


> **
>
> My son has sensory integration issues, Asperger related and would probably
> be classified as ADHD if he were in school, but we talk and figure it out.
> Yes it was more difficult when he was younger, we had to be more patient.
> There are solutions and alternatives.
>
> Kelli~

I agree that it is ALWAYS best if you can talk things out and help the child
understand the reasoning behind the rules. (This assumes, of course, that he
is old enough to understand.) Kids learn a great deal from these discussions,
and they respect that a lot better than arbitrarily laying down the law.
Still, ultimately they have to understand that YOU are the parent and have the
final say, precisely because emergencies can arise unpredictably.

They might perhaps arise more often in some circumstances than in others.
For example, do the children in your neighborhood walk uninvited into your house
and refuse to leave when you or your children gently ask them to (because a
family member is sleeping, say)? This happens all the time where I live! I
have had to put my foot down, even threaten to call the cops, precisely because
these underprivileged, fatherless kids apparently had no parenting whatsoever,
and zero respect for adults. There are even kids I have refused to allow my
kids to play with at all, because they repeatedly stole, broke things, and
refused to follow the most basic house rules or safety precautions as a guest in
my home. (I am referring to preteens and young teenagers, not three year olds
who might have some excuse for their ignorance.) That is the other side of t
he "authoritarian parenting" coin.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 07/19/2003 6:08:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
HaHaMommy@... writes:


> We do grocery shopping because it's necessary, but we do it
> together because it's fun. We go to fellowship almost every Sunday, not
> because it's *required* but because it's fun (if majority wants to stay
> home, we
> all stay home).

Doesn't that mean that the minority is forced to go against their wishes,
though? You see, even a complete democracy requires that not everybody gets their
way all the time! We run into this issue a lot at home because one child
will want to go to the pool and the other doesn't. The 12 year old is perhaps
old enough to stay home by himself for an hour, but not quite old enough to
babysit. The 6 year old protests that this isn't fair, because he's forced to go
swimming when he'd rather play video games, so why shouldn't his brother have
to go when the shoe is on the other foot? In practice, I take refuge in the
laws of my state, which requires P.E. for homeschoolers. I just homeschool
year round, and insist on regular pool attendance "because it's the law!"

But in all seriousness, if you have more than one child you cannot allow one
of them to veto all family activities, can you? And you cannot always have
consensus either. So how do you handle these situations? Anyone?




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 7-19-2003 5:30:18 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
OomYaaqub@... writes:

> So how do you handle these situations? Anyone?
>

Rock/paper/scissors ~ I'm serious!
diana,
The wackiest widow westriver...
“Relationships are a prerequisite for producing results beyond ourselves.
They expand our imaginations to infinite possibilities that cannot exist in a
life of isolation." --Brian Koslow


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 07/19/2003 6:09:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
pamsoroosh@... writes:


> Your job as a parent is to protect them. So control their environment -
> hold their hands when you're near streets, etc.

It is obvious that you have never tried getting onto a bus at a busy
intersection with several bags of groceries and a hyperactive, defiant child who was
quite capable of pulling away violently. I once had an entire crowd of people
CHEER when I finally gave him a swat! There have been very few times when
this was necessary, but that was one of them, I'm afraid.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 07/19/2003 6:21:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
pamsoroosh@... writes:


> . She's 18 now and I'm just saying goodbye to
> her because she's going on a 4 month trip by herself - visiting
> unschooling friends all over the country. She's STILL impulsive and
> high-energy and, yes, noncompliant - a whole lot like her mom <G>.
> Luckily she's also very intelligent and reasonable and people-smart and
> loves life. I'll actually get to SEE her for a couple of days a month
> from now at the Sacramento conference. YAY!!!!
>
>

And I would say she's very lucky to have a mom like you who appreciates her
for who she is! :-)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sarah

Wasn't planning on joining in this exchange, but as the mother of 3 boys
I was offended by your stupid description of "sweet, little girls" vs.
"active boys". WTF is that supposed to mean?
I have a very sweet compliant boy, a very noncompliant boy, and one
halfway in between. I personally was a very non-sweet, non-compliant
"little girl".
I am sure your situation is complicated, as is everybody's, but nobody
asked you to defend your parenting choices here. People simply stated
their own choices. There is no need to become stereotypical or
defensive.

Sarah
See my/our blog: http://www.bruceportal.com
<http://www.bruceportal.com/>


-----Original Message-----
From: OomYaaqub@... [mailto:OomYaaqub@...]
Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2003 3:59 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-Discussion] Fw: A Drug Problem


In a message dated 07/19/2003 5:50:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
pamsoroosh@... writes:


>
>
>
> What if what if what if --- ALL the negative stuff that happens on
this
> list comes from people arguing about "what ifs." Let's talk about
> reality, okay?
>
> -pam

Um, I am. I was talking about reality as I have lived it with my own
kids.
There may be some sweet little girls out there who always go along with
whatever their mommy wants when it is "explained" to them, but I have
two very
active boys. One of them was diagnosed as having "oppositional defiant
disorder"
while my dh and I were separated, although he is acting much better now
that
we're back together. Nevertheless, there have been many times when I
simply had
to force him to do things he didn't want to do! He's too young to stay
home
alone so if the parents go somewhere, he HAS to come along. (I do not
drive
due to a medical problem, so I have to take him when the bus is coming,
not when
he might be in a better mood. I live hundreds of miles from the nearest

relative and certainly can't afford baby sitters.) Neither child enjoys
doctor
and dentist visits, but they know that certain things are simply
nonnegotiable
and that's one of them. This is simply reality as an inner city mom
without a
car experiences it. It isn't the least bit hypothetical.



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joylyn

OomYaaqub@... wrote:

> In a message dated 07/19/2003 6:09:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> pamsoroosh@... writes:
>
>
> > Your job as a parent is to protect them. So control their environment -
> > hold their hands when you're near streets, etc.
>
> It is obvious that you have never tried getting onto a bus at a busy
> intersection with several bags of groceries and a hyperactive, defiant
> child who was
> quite capable of pulling away violently. I once had an entire crowd
> of people
> CHEER when I finally gave him a swat! There have been very few times
> when
> this was necessary, but that was one of them, I'm afraid.

It seems to me that parents should know their children well enough that
they don't put their children in a position such as the one you describe
above.

And I personally would not have cheered. I do not believe that parents
have a right to subject their children to violence, aka spankings or
swats, regardless of the circumstances. Ever. In my opinion violence
against a child is never necessary.

Joylyn

>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
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>
>
> ~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Maggy

I really think you missed my point here.....

It had nothing to do with church. It had to do with being forced to do things, period.

Do you think you became an addict because your parents were atheists who didn't drag you to church?

Maggy

A Mother's Touch Photography
http://pages.ivillage.com/momaggy2/
----- Original Message -----
From: OomYaaqub@...


Do you really believe that being taken to church as a child, even against your will, is what turns you into a drug addict later on?
We can agree to disagree about spanking--I think it is acceptable for very young children when they do something dangerous like run into the street. And obviously we all agree that kids shouldn't be forced to go to school if parents are in a position to keep them home. But saying kids should never be forced to do ANYTHING they don't want to do is simply unrealistic. If you took that philosophy seriously enough, you would end up having your children removed,
since you would never even take them to the doctor's office.

I was raised by atheists who never forced me to do anything, since they didn't give a damn about me. And I'm a former alcoholic/addict.


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