Kris

<<That sounds like the stuff Keith was reporting that the other engineers
were
saying about their own teens, while Keith's stories were positive and so
either ignored or made light of (like someone saying, "Yeah, we all had
summer jobs
too" when Keith mentioned Kirby's job, which is NOT "a summer job").

Sandra>>

Yeah, what is up with that? When I use Lanora as an example in
conversations on the virtues of unschooling they say, "But Lanora is
exceptional, she's just a really great kid!", like it happened in a vacuum.

When people talk about how they don't trust their kids I say how much I
trust Lanora. They say, "Yeah, but she's so honest and trustworthy". I
tell them it's because she is trusted but they don't hear me.

Kris

[email protected]

In a message dated 7/4/03 4:20:02 PM, louisa@... writes:

<< When people talk about how they don't trust their kids I say how much I

trust Lanora. They say, "Yeah, but she's so honest and trustworthy". I

tell them it's because she is trusted but they don't hear me.

>>

EXactly.

Tons of people (I think even in places like this) have written off my advice
by just deciding quickly that MY children must be exceptional, while theirs
are lazy, unimaginative, disobedient kids who would watch tv all day if they
would let them, or play video games all day if they didn't stop them, or eat
sugar all the time and never sleep if they'd let them.

And they go away happy with their well thought out choice of keeping their
kids in school or in homeSCHOOL.

Sometimes they're just one step from change.
Sometimes if they would turn 30 degrees and look just a LITTLE to one side
they would see more.

It's sad.

Sandra

[email protected]

On Fri, 4 Jul 2003 15:17:08 -0700 "Kris" <louisa@...> writes:
> Yeah, what is up with that? When I use Lanora as an example in
> conversations on the virtues of unschooling they say, "But Lanora is
> exceptional, she's just a really great kid!", like it happened in a
> vacuum.
>
I get that too, and it makes me feel sad. Rain *is* a great kid, but it
is so much a chicken and egg thing... or maybe all kids start out with
the potential to be responsible, kind, trustworthy, fun to be with kids,
but when they're treated as otherwise it starts to stick. And school just
a way of telling a kid they can't be trusted to learn...

Rain and I are both in a musical right now, and I've been given a husband
and two kids for when I'm in the emsemble (none of whom are really
related to me, but my show-husband is single and so am I and... wait,
that's another thread ;-). It's been interesting for me to notice how I
"parent" these kids onstage, and how quickly we've gotten into a nice
groove. One of my "daughters" was having trouble "cheating out", so half
the audience was seeing her back The director reminded her about it (in
sort of a shaming way) but it didn't change much. Her real mother told
her about it a few times, too, that I heard. I noticed last weekend that
during the two parts of the show where that had been an issue, I'd
started putting my arm around her and sort of hugging her to me and
smiling down at her, which results in her being perfectly placed. At
another point, she was supposed to end up with her "family" during a
scary scene, and she was ending up way across the stage - so I started
making sure I swooped her up with me as I moved to my "husband" and we
fearfully go to him together.

This isn't how the other people treat the kids, or even how most of the
kids generally treat each other. Most are kind, but the emphasis is on
"You need to cheat out." rather than, "How can we arrange things so
cheating out happens naturally?". And the kids this, they want to look
good out there, and have the show look good.

It just seems that so many things get turned into a power struggle rather
than being solutions-oriented. I do think that's a big thing Rain has
gotten out of being unschooled - she focuses on getting things to work
for everyone, rather than getting people to do things.

And I love the name Lanora, just BTW...

Dar

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Kris

<<And I love the name Lanora, just BTW...

Dar>>

Thanks, it's a family name with a different spelling.

Kris

[email protected]

In a message dated 7/4/03 5:00:45 PM, freeform@... writes:

<< Most are kind, but the emphasis is on
"You need to cheat out." rather than, "How can we arrange things so
cheating out happens naturally?" >>

YES!!
Dar, this (whatever it is <g>) seems to me to be central to people living by
principle instead of by rules.

Sometimes parents can't think past "what do the kids have to do and what will
I do if they don't do it?"

If they look three steps past that to "What do I want the outcome of all of
this to be?" they can work back from that to "What should I say at this moment
that could conceivably, potentially lead to that outcome?"

Chess is NOT my game. I don't like it, I have no patience for it, and
because it's a spatial reasoning situation, I can't think three or four moves ahead.
In the SCA, people are SUPPOSED to play chess. It's kind of an early badge
requirement (less so now than when I joined). Once when people were subtly
(NOT) encouraging me to play chess, I said "I don't like chess, I can't play
chess."

I didn't mean I couldn't pass a test on how pieces moved and what the rules
were; I could have. What I meant was I can't play well enough to do anything
but lose and feel like I'm wasting my time and my opponent's time as well.

A friend who is a great chess player and knew me well said "What do you MEAN
you can't play chess? I see you think three or four moves ahead when it
involves people and politics all the time."

I said, "Sure, and if you can tell me which of these pawns wants what, which
used to be married to which other ones, and which one WANTS to move, I'll tell
you which pawn to move first!"

He got the point. <g> I need human factors and motivations. He was looking
at it from a mathematical and spatial intelligence, and I don't have so much
of that to spare on a game. I need to save it all for parallel parking and
putting things in the freezer!

Is is possible that some parents are lacking in the human factors
intelligences (interpersonal and intrapersonal) and so they just can't think three moves
ahead? Is unschooling going to be difficult for people without those
intelligences?

(Though Dar's example wasn't necessarily a human-factors, and could have been
more primarily spatial...)

Sandra

Mary

From: "Kris" <louisa@...>

<< Yeah, what is up with that? When I use Lanora as an example in
conversations on the virtues of unschooling they say, "But Lanora is
exceptional, she's just a really great kid!", like it happened in a vacuum.

When people talk about how they don't trust their kids I say how much I
trust Lanora. They say, "Yeah, but she's so honest and trustworthy". I
tell them it's because she is trusted but they don't hear me.>>



I was trying to explain to Tara's father about how we parent here. Trying to
get him to understand yelling at her, bringing up mistakes she made years
ago, talking forever about what "could happen" and other such bs things
aren't helping her at all. I tried to get him to get it (ain't happenin!) by
talking about Joseph and Sierra. What great kids they are to be around. He
knows that. I thought it would help him see. I ended it with they aren't
punished here and look at them. I was told I don't "have" to punish them
because they are great kids, not that they are great "because" I don't
punish them.

I gave up.

Mary B

Mary

From: <SandraDodd@...>

<< EXactly.
Tons of people (I think even in places like this) have written off my
advice
by just deciding quickly that MY children must be exceptional, while theirs
are lazy, unimaginative, disobedient kids who would watch tv all day if
they
would let them, or play video games all day if they didn't stop them, or eat
sugar all the time and never sleep if they'd let them.>>


You are so right. And I have seen it here too. It's not what you do or don't
do. You just have naturally delightful, considerate kids who would have
turned out that way no matter how you parented. It's nice to see when some
people do turn that slight degree left or right and see it.

I had a friend over here the other day. She enjoys seeing how my kids are
and especially how Tara and I are with each other. I was telling her about
when we did the Oprah thing and about what went on here at the house. We
were asked to sit and look at a picture album. (after us saying we do that a
lot) I sat at the dining room table and the producer asked Tara would she
would sit naturally to look with me. Tara answered it would be on my lap. He
looked surprised until I said that was true. So that's how they shot it.
When I told my friend that, she said if she had seen that piece on TV
without knowing us, she would have assumed it was all set up. But she knows
us and knows how we are.

Some people just don't want to see what they aren't ready for. Or maybe some
people just don't want to be ready.

Mary B

Fetteroll

on 7/4/03 6:56 PM, freeform@... at freeform@... wrote:

> maybe all kids start out with
> the potential to be responsible, kind, trustworthy, fun to be with kids,
> but when they're treated as otherwise it starts to stick.

I think so.

I think there's also the factor that it's natural to ascribe adult motives
to children. Parents will see a child act in a selfish way -- like grab a
toy from another child -- and assume the child is being selfish and label
and treat them as selfish and worse.

When it's really a matter of understanding what the world looks like from
what the child understands and what they're capable of understanding.

Joyce