but what about...
Stefanie Mohsennia
Hi *
I'm German, and unfortunately, homeschooling is illegal in my country.
A few days ago, I have created a web site for promoting respectful
parenting and natural learning in Germany.
One of the first reactions I got had some of the typical BUTs in it:
1. Do you think unschooling/homeschooling also works for learning about
the division of polynomials?
2. Do you think unschooling is restricted to a certain age or does it
also work with 14-year-olds?
3. What about the children not getting to know learning together with
their peers? (the typical socialization question)
What would you as experienced unschoolers tell a bunch of people who
have never heard of homeschooling and live in a country where
homeschooling is illegal?
I'm also looking for sources of grown-up homeschoolers/unschoolers who
speak about their experience with not going to school and what they
liked or not liked about it - though the latter is not very likely I
suppose. Please let me know about any web sites / books / articles that
come to your mind!
If you are interested in having a look at my site, you can find it at
www.unschooling.de. Feedback, comments, suggestions are always welcome!
Thanks!
Steffi
I'm German, and unfortunately, homeschooling is illegal in my country.
A few days ago, I have created a web site for promoting respectful
parenting and natural learning in Germany.
One of the first reactions I got had some of the typical BUTs in it:
1. Do you think unschooling/homeschooling also works for learning about
the division of polynomials?
2. Do you think unschooling is restricted to a certain age or does it
also work with 14-year-olds?
3. What about the children not getting to know learning together with
their peers? (the typical socialization question)
What would you as experienced unschoolers tell a bunch of people who
have never heard of homeschooling and live in a country where
homeschooling is illegal?
I'm also looking for sources of grown-up homeschoolers/unschoolers who
speak about their experience with not going to school and what they
liked or not liked about it - though the latter is not very likely I
suppose. Please let me know about any web sites / books / articles that
come to your mind!
If you are interested in having a look at my site, you can find it at
www.unschooling.de. Feedback, comments, suggestions are always welcome!
Thanks!
Steffi
Tim and Maureen
1. Do you think unschooling/homeschooling also works for learning about
the division of polynomials?
No, but neither does school. I'm gonna answer a question with a question.
Do people in Germany USE this math a lot? In what occupations? I know
engineers & mathematicans here in Canada that never ever use all the math
people THINK they use. And if they need to use it, they get a book and look
up HOW to use it.
So, what would happen if that cirriculum was not taught? Who would notice?
Economic collapse? Sounds pretty arrogant to me that one is educated only
if you can divide a poly-whatsit.
2. Do you think unschooling is restricted to a certain age or does it also
work with 14-year-olds?
Yes, it works for 14 months, 14 year olds, 25, 55, 95 year olds. The human
cycle of "life-long learning" seems to me to be 1) curiosity, 2)
investigation, 3) knowledge acquistion 4) practice, practice, practice, 5)
mastery. Martial arts being a great example. Zen-based arts do not pursue
the learner. If you want to learn, practice. If you don't, leave. I know
you have Aikido in Germany. Mastery of that particular art would be a fine
example of this cycle.
So, we allow it in adults, but impose a different cycle on kids in desks.
1) boredom or neutrality to ward most topics at best, 2) attend to someone
else's knowledge dispersal, if you can, 3) write it on a piece of paper, 4)
re-read it later for the test (studying) 5) re-write it later on the test.
In "Coloring Outside The Lines: Raising a Smarter Kid by Breaking All the
Rules" (Publisher: Harper Collins), Roger Schank lays out how to break the
sitting-in-desk cycle of learning WITHIN the school. He also argues
strongly against the poly-whatits in your #1.
3. What about the children not getting to know learning together with their
peers? (the typical socialization question)
Here in Canada our most right-wing think tank did a study on homeschooling
(calling unschooling left wing John Holt followers) and found that home
educated kids are BETTER socialized, not worse. Here's the link:
http://www.fraserinstitute.ca/shared/readmore.asp?sNav=pb&id=253
-=-What would you as experienced unschoolers tell a bunch of people who have
never heard of homeschooling and live in a country where homeschooling is
illegal? -=-
If I was stuck in Germany with kids, I would use Roger Schank's ideas and
lobby like crazy for change. :O)
My thots, books, and websites
Tim T
.
the division of polynomials?
No, but neither does school. I'm gonna answer a question with a question.
Do people in Germany USE this math a lot? In what occupations? I know
engineers & mathematicans here in Canada that never ever use all the math
people THINK they use. And if they need to use it, they get a book and look
up HOW to use it.
So, what would happen if that cirriculum was not taught? Who would notice?
Economic collapse? Sounds pretty arrogant to me that one is educated only
if you can divide a poly-whatsit.
2. Do you think unschooling is restricted to a certain age or does it also
work with 14-year-olds?
Yes, it works for 14 months, 14 year olds, 25, 55, 95 year olds. The human
cycle of "life-long learning" seems to me to be 1) curiosity, 2)
investigation, 3) knowledge acquistion 4) practice, practice, practice, 5)
mastery. Martial arts being a great example. Zen-based arts do not pursue
the learner. If you want to learn, practice. If you don't, leave. I know
you have Aikido in Germany. Mastery of that particular art would be a fine
example of this cycle.
So, we allow it in adults, but impose a different cycle on kids in desks.
1) boredom or neutrality to ward most topics at best, 2) attend to someone
else's knowledge dispersal, if you can, 3) write it on a piece of paper, 4)
re-read it later for the test (studying) 5) re-write it later on the test.
In "Coloring Outside The Lines: Raising a Smarter Kid by Breaking All the
Rules" (Publisher: Harper Collins), Roger Schank lays out how to break the
sitting-in-desk cycle of learning WITHIN the school. He also argues
strongly against the poly-whatits in your #1.
3. What about the children not getting to know learning together with their
peers? (the typical socialization question)
Here in Canada our most right-wing think tank did a study on homeschooling
(calling unschooling left wing John Holt followers) and found that home
educated kids are BETTER socialized, not worse. Here's the link:
http://www.fraserinstitute.ca/shared/readmore.asp?sNav=pb&id=253
-=-What would you as experienced unschoolers tell a bunch of people who have
never heard of homeschooling and live in a country where homeschooling is
illegal? -=-
If I was stuck in Germany with kids, I would use Roger Schank's ideas and
lobby like crazy for change. :O)
My thots, books, and websites
Tim T
.
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/4/2003 8:20:15 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
mohsennia@...-wuppertal.de writes:
Do you think he will need it in real life?
Yes? Then of course he will find it and learn it.
No? Then why learn it in the first place?
graduation. So YES, it works for all ages. Those in-between ages (6-18/22/26) are
doing SIMULATED learning in schools. If allowed to REALLY learn, yes it works
then too.
Learning is NOT natural is a class of thirty children---they learn, sure, but
they learn to hate learning and they learn to put off learning what interests
them at the time.
And I'd prefer that my children learn social cues from other responsible,
polite, gentle people of all ages than from a dictator and 29 other nine year
olds who don't want to be there in the first place!
Good luck to you in Germany! I miss it!
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
mohsennia@...-wuppertal.de writes:
> One of the first reactions I got had some of the typical BUTs in it:My favorite answer here is:
> 1. Do you think unschooling/homeschooling also works for learning about
> the division of polynomials?
Do you think he will need it in real life?
Yes? Then of course he will find it and learn it.
No? Then why learn it in the first place?
> 2. Do you think unschooling is restricted to a certain age or does itIt's the natural learning that happens before 6 (school age) and after
> also work with 14-year-olds?
graduation. So YES, it works for all ages. Those in-between ages (6-18/22/26) are
doing SIMULATED learning in schools. If allowed to REALLY learn, yes it works
then too.
> 3. What about the children not getting to know learning together withMine learn with their peers, with those younger, and with those MUCH older.
> their peers? (the typical socialization question)
Learning is NOT natural is a class of thirty children---they learn, sure, but
they learn to hate learning and they learn to put off learning what interests
them at the time.
And I'd prefer that my children learn social cues from other responsible,
polite, gentle people of all ages than from a dictator and 29 other nine year
olds who don't want to be there in the first place!
Good luck to you in Germany! I miss it!
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Bill and Diane
>I think learning how stuff works by doing it works SO much better than
>
>1. Do you think unschooling/homeschooling also works for learning about
>the division of polynomials?
>
being stuffed with a formula and regurgitating it on demand. I was
really good at math in school, but never did comprehend the actual
mechanics of how some of that math works until I was in my twenties.
Some of it I still don't understand. But I got great grades!
My husband, on the other hand, realized he needed to learn calculus to
do what he wanted to do, got a book and taught it to himself over the
summer. He'd similarly taught himself algebra a few summers earlier
because it was important to him for a goal he wanted to pursue. (This
same guy didn't learn to read in school, either.)
>2. Do you think unschooling is restricted to a certain age or does itMy dh was about 14 when he taught himself calculus.
>also work with 14-year-olds?
>
>What would you as experienced unschoolers tell a bunch of people whoWhat is the usual age at which German kids enter institutions--school,
>have never heard of homeschooling and live in a country where
>homeschooling is illegal?
>
daycare or whatever first gets them away from their parents? They learn
many things earlier than that, which aren't *taught* to them. They can
continue learning like that if they're allowed to.
I think, though, that some variation of the "socialization" objection is
true--they won't become assimilated into the school-culture if they
don't have those experiences. To the extent that unquestioning obedience
is important, homeschooling/unschooling may not be acceptable.
:-) Diane
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/4/2003 8:20:15 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
mohsennia@...-wuppertal.de writes:
and google peasandcarrots
Peter Kowalke
Not Back to School Camp
You'll find some neat people at all those sights
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
mohsennia@...-wuppertal.de writes:
> I'm also looking for sources of grown-up homeschoolers/unschoolers whowww.SandraDodd.com
> speak about their experience with not going to school and what they
> liked or not liked about it - though the latter is not very likely I
> suppose. Please let me know about any web sites / books / articles that
> come to your mind!
and google peasandcarrots
Peter Kowalke
Not Back to School Camp
You'll find some neat people at all those sights
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Bill and Diane
Stefanie Mohsennia wrote:
language tools. http://www.google.com/language_tools?hl=en Just paste
in the url of the page you want to read. The translation is imperfect,
but vastly better than nothing!
:-) Diane
>If you are interested in having a look at my site, you can find it atFor those of us who don't read/speak German, don't forget Google's
>www.unschooling.de. Feedback, comments, suggestions are always welcome!
>
language tools. http://www.google.com/language_tools?hl=en Just paste
in the url of the page you want to read. The translation is imperfect,
but vastly better than nothing!
:-) Diane
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/4/2003 10:49:55 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
cen46624@... writes:
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
cen46624@... writes:
> The translation is imperfect,And often humorous! <G>
> but vastly better than nothing!
>
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/4/03 8:20:42 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
mohsennia@...-wuppertal.de writes:
Without Schooling" by Peter Kowalke that is about grown homeschoolers and
unschoolers. You can read about him and the video at grownwithoutschooling.com.
Pam G.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
mohsennia@...-wuppertal.de writes:
> I'm also looking for sources of grown-up homeschoolers/unschoolers whoSomeone may have already posted this but there is a documentary out "Grown
> speak about their experience with not going to school and what they
> liked or not liked about it - though the latter is not very likely I
> suppose. Please let me know about any web sites / books / articles that
> come to your mind!
>
>
Without Schooling" by Peter Kowalke that is about grown homeschoolers and
unschoolers. You can read about him and the video at grownwithoutschooling.com.
Pam G.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/4/03 11:01:09 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
kbcdlovejo@... writes:
believe. The menu was in German with several different language translations.
I can't remember the German version but the English translation had one item
as "roasted beetles and chicken knuckles." Too funny. Jackson ordered it,
hoping it was really beets and drumsticks, and it was. LOL
Pam G.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
kbcdlovejo@... writes:
> >The translation is imperfect,That is too funny. I remember going to a restaurant in Southern Germany I
> >but vastly better than nothing!
> >
>
> And often humorous! <G>
>
>
believe. The menu was in German with several different language translations.
I can't remember the German version but the English translation had one item
as "roasted beetles and chicken knuckles." Too funny. Jackson ordered it,
hoping it was really beets and drumsticks, and it was. LOL
Pam G.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Betsy
**1. Do you think unschooling/homeschooling also works for learning about
the division of polynomials?
No, but neither does school. I'm gonna answer a question with a question.
Do people in Germany USE this math a lot? In what occupations? I know
engineers & mathematicans here in Canada that never ever use all the math
people THINK they use. And if they need to use it, they get a book and look
up HOW to use it.**
My understanding of the German education system is really limited, but
one idea that I do like is the idea of apprenticeships. What I like is
the idea that the science and mathematics that one learns can be applied
to a real context and be "meaningful" at the time it is learned.
I studied Electrical Engineering at the University of California (Davis)
and the knowledge was almost all gone from my brain by the time I had a
job and might have used the information. I was a fairly hard-working
student and I found this outcome to be quite disappointing. When the
alumni association asks me for money I always make an ugly face and
throw the request into the trash can.
Betsy
the division of polynomials?
No, but neither does school. I'm gonna answer a question with a question.
Do people in Germany USE this math a lot? In what occupations? I know
engineers & mathematicans here in Canada that never ever use all the math
people THINK they use. And if they need to use it, they get a book and look
up HOW to use it.**
My understanding of the German education system is really limited, but
one idea that I do like is the idea of apprenticeships. What I like is
the idea that the science and mathematics that one learns can be applied
to a real context and be "meaningful" at the time it is learned.
I studied Electrical Engineering at the University of California (Davis)
and the knowledge was almost all gone from my brain by the time I had a
job and might have used the information. I was a fairly hard-working
student and I found this outcome to be quite disappointing. When the
alumni association asks me for money I always make an ugly face and
throw the request into the trash can.
Betsy
Mary
From: "Stefanie Mohsennia" <mohsennia@...-wuppertal.de>
<<1. Do you think unschooling/homeschooling also works for learning about
the division of polynomials?>>
Yes I actually think unschooling will work for anything that the child/adult
is interested in. Whenever there is a need to learn something, there will be
a way to find out how to do it. And having the need and want usually means
more enjoyment in learning and then easier to learn it.
<<2. Do you think unschooling is restricted to a certain age or does it
also work with 14-year-olds?>>
No I don't think it's restricted at all and does work with older kids too. I
just see people using the unschooling term to apply to kids of "schooling"
age. But the concept can go way past being 18. Many adults decide they are
interested in something, either for pleasure or work, find a way to learn it
and then do it! Same thing really.
<<3. What about the children not getting to know learning together with
their peers? (the typical socialization question)>>
I actually don't know any homeschoolers/unschoolers who don't have many
friends to interact with. I'm sure they are out there but I don't know of
them. I would be wondering about anyone who had no interaction at all with
people and would find it hard to believe it can be easily done.
Mary B
<<1. Do you think unschooling/homeschooling also works for learning about
the division of polynomials?>>
Yes I actually think unschooling will work for anything that the child/adult
is interested in. Whenever there is a need to learn something, there will be
a way to find out how to do it. And having the need and want usually means
more enjoyment in learning and then easier to learn it.
<<2. Do you think unschooling is restricted to a certain age or does it
also work with 14-year-olds?>>
No I don't think it's restricted at all and does work with older kids too. I
just see people using the unschooling term to apply to kids of "schooling"
age. But the concept can go way past being 18. Many adults decide they are
interested in something, either for pleasure or work, find a way to learn it
and then do it! Same thing really.
<<3. What about the children not getting to know learning together with
their peers? (the typical socialization question)>>
I actually don't know any homeschoolers/unschoolers who don't have many
friends to interact with. I'm sure they are out there but I don't know of
them. I would be wondering about anyone who had no interaction at all with
people and would find it hard to believe it can be easily done.
Mary B
Tia Leschke
>Many of Google's foreign hits already give you the option to click on
> For those of us who don't read/speak German, don't forget Google's
> language tools. http://www.google.com/language_tools?hl=en Just paste
> in the url of the page you want to read. The translation is imperfect,
> but vastly better than nothing!
"translate this page". Does the above URL work for the pages that don't
have that?
Tia
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety." Ben Franklin
leschke@...
Bill and Diane
Tia Leschke wrote:
the languages to translate to and from.
:-) Diane
>>For those of us who don't read/speak German, don't forget Google'sYse. It has a box where you can type (or paste) in any URL and tell it
>>language tools. http://www.google.com/language_tools?hl=en Just paste
>>in the url of the page you want to read. The translation is imperfect,
>>but vastly better than nothing!
>>
>
>Many of Google's foreign hits already give you the option to click on
>"translate this page". Does the above URL work for the pages that don't
>have that?
>Tia
>
the languages to translate to and from.
:-) Diane
Alan & Brenda Leonard
Steffi,
I'm so glad to see that many people responded to your questions already.
I think that part of why Germans have such a hard time getting unschooling
has to do with the early out of the house mentality. Because children
normally start kindergarten (like pre-school in America) at 3, so many
parents just don't see that their children could learn without an organized
program. It's not just a different mindset, it's a totally different way of
life!
degree as well. Remind me again what polynomials are and why I'd possibly
care! School guarantees that you'll learn what someone else thinks you
should know and then forget it because you're not using it. Unschooling
guarantees that you may never learn anything about polynomials unless you
need it or care to know it, and because of that, you'll probably remember
it.
Of course it works with 14 year olds. But it isn't going to work instantly,
as they've been schooled all their lives.
sports clubs, shopping, etc. Learning to work together isn't the priority
of schools, where children compete against each other for grades and the
teacher's attention.
home. Do you have Sandra's article about school on your own terms
translated and up on the web site? That's an interesting take on not
playing the school game.
And I know that you (or somebody I was talking to) had once said that it
appeared that someone in Germany was challenging the ban on homeschooling
politically. Germany has worked a great deal on getting rid of many things
that still linger from WWII, working for cutbacks in American forces here
and all that. Maybe it's time to get rid of this ban, too.
brenda
I'm so glad to see that many people responded to your questions already.
I think that part of why Germans have such a hard time getting unschooling
has to do with the early out of the house mentality. Because children
normally start kindergarten (like pre-school in America) at 3, so many
parents just don't see that their children could learn without an organized
program. It's not just a different mindset, it's a totally different way of
life!
> 1. Do you think unschooling/homeschooling also works for learning aboutHmmm, I went to school for 13 years, then college and I have a master's
> the division of polynomials?
degree as well. Remind me again what polynomials are and why I'd possibly
care! School guarantees that you'll learn what someone else thinks you
should know and then forget it because you're not using it. Unschooling
guarantees that you may never learn anything about polynomials unless you
need it or care to know it, and because of that, you'll probably remember
it.
> 2. Do you think unschooling is restricted to a certain age or does itHave you told them about deschooling? I haven't been to your website yet.
> also work with 14-year-olds?
Of course it works with 14 year olds. But it isn't going to work instantly,
as they've been schooled all their lives.
> 3. What about the children not getting to know learning together withSocialization happens everywhere. School, church, playgrounds, scouts,
> their peers? (the typical socialization question)
sports clubs, shopping, etc. Learning to work together isn't the priority
of schools, where children compete against each other for grades and the
teacher's attention.
>Try using some of the ideas of unschooling and attachment parenting in your
> What would you as experienced unschoolers tell a bunch of people who
> have never heard of homeschooling and live in a country where
> homeschooling is illegal?
home. Do you have Sandra's article about school on your own terms
translated and up on the web site? That's an interesting take on not
playing the school game.
And I know that you (or somebody I was talking to) had once said that it
appeared that someone in Germany was challenging the ban on homeschooling
politically. Germany has worked a great deal on getting rid of many things
that still linger from WWII, working for cutbacks in American forces here
and all that. Maybe it's time to get rid of this ban, too.
brenda
[email protected]
Steffi, I added your site here:
http://sandradodd.com/unschoolingotherwise
and in a day or two I'll go and find that flag site, upload it, try to
remember how to name it, and get you a waving flag!
Sandra
http://sandradodd.com/unschoolingotherwise
and in a day or two I'll go and find that flag site, upload it, try to
remember how to name it, and get you a waving flag!
Sandra
Stefanie Mohsennia
Hi everybody,
thank you so much for all your thoughts and answers to my questions. It
makes enough material to draft good answers for the German homeschooling
skeptics. Thank you for being patient too - as Brenda Leonard mentioned,
I don't have a computer at home, so no Internet access over the weekend.
Thank you, Brenda, for your nice words about me.
Thank you, Sandra Dodd, for adding me to your page. I'll contact you
privately about including any texts of yours for my web site.
Please give me more time for digesting all your postings. It's great to
be here, at least virtually, I'm part of a great unschooling community,
hope it will be IRL too, some day!
Bye,
Steffi
thank you so much for all your thoughts and answers to my questions. It
makes enough material to draft good answers for the German homeschooling
skeptics. Thank you for being patient too - as Brenda Leonard mentioned,
I don't have a computer at home, so no Internet access over the weekend.
Thank you, Brenda, for your nice words about me.
Thank you, Sandra Dodd, for adding me to your page. I'll contact you
privately about including any texts of yours for my web site.
Please give me more time for digesting all your postings. It's great to
be here, at least virtually, I'm part of a great unschooling community,
hope it will be IRL too, some day!
Bye,
Steffi