happiness of kids
Mary
I've been trying to discuss this with someone and now I'm wondering about how some of you here feel about it.
Do you all really care about the happiness of your children all the time? Not that you try to make them happy every waking moment, or even that one can. Just if they are or aren't happy, do you care about that?
If you feel like they just have to do something they don't want to (like go to the store because you have to and they can't stay home alone) and they are unhappy about that, and you can't do it any other way, do you care?
And one last question. Is one of the reasons why you unschool so that your kids can be happier? Does that factor into one of the reasons?
Thanks.
Mary B
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Do you all really care about the happiness of your children all the time? Not that you try to make them happy every waking moment, or even that one can. Just if they are or aren't happy, do you care about that?
If you feel like they just have to do something they don't want to (like go to the store because you have to and they can't stay home alone) and they are unhappy about that, and you can't do it any other way, do you care?
And one last question. Is one of the reasons why you unschool so that your kids can be happier? Does that factor into one of the reasons?
Thanks.
Mary B
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Fetteroll
on 7/1/03 4:34 PM, Mary at mummy124@... wrote:
recognize that I feel that way not because it's the only solution but
because I can't figure out a better solution.
And I'm confident there is a better solution.
There is also a pattern and the pattern is generally miscommunication and
undercommunication so Kathryn wasn't understanding the situation in the same
way I was.
Maybe what you're asking is am I motivated because I feel responsible for
her feeling unhappy. And I'd answer that her unhappiness is a piece of
evidence that something went wrong in the situation. It's up to me to
analyze what part I played in it and what I can do in the future to avoid
the part I played.
Which is sounding a lot more clinical and cold than it really is in
practice.
Joyce
> If you feel like they just have to do something they don't want to (like go toI do feel like there are times Kathryn just has to do something. But I
> the store because you have to and they can't stay home alone) and they are
> unhappy about that, and you can't do it any other way, do you care?
recognize that I feel that way not because it's the only solution but
because I can't figure out a better solution.
And I'm confident there is a better solution.
There is also a pattern and the pattern is generally miscommunication and
undercommunication so Kathryn wasn't understanding the situation in the same
way I was.
Maybe what you're asking is am I motivated because I feel responsible for
her feeling unhappy. And I'd answer that her unhappiness is a piece of
evidence that something went wrong in the situation. It's up to me to
analyze what part I played in it and what I can do in the future to avoid
the part I played.
Which is sounding a lot more clinical and cold than it really is in
practice.
Joyce
Helen Hegener
At 4:34 PM -0400 7/1/03, Mary wrote:
unhappy can be a good thing - but I definitely care. Always.
the circumstances, I'd probably insist they do whatever needs doing
anyway. Like weed the garden, feed the horses, haul out the trash...
things need doing to make a household run smoothly, and while my kids
grew up understanding that and don't often balk or complain about it,
they're still kids, and sometimes they do, and I smile and tell them
to do it anyway. Or I do it, depending on what they're involved in.
We give and take and the world goes round and round.
and I didn't want my kids subjected to that kind of controlling
atmosphere. But it was only a smallish factor. There were many, many
others which were much more positive!
Helen
>Do you all really care about the happiness of your children all theAbsolutely. I don't have any problems with them being unhappy - being
>time? Not that you try to make them happy every waking moment, or
>even that one can. Just if they are or aren't happy, do you care
>about that?
unhappy can be a good thing - but I definitely care. Always.
>If you feel like they just have to do something they don't want toI'm not sure what you're looking for here. I care, but depending on
>(like go to the store because you have to and they can't stay home
>alone) and they are unhappy about that, and you can't do it any
>other way, do you care?
the circumstances, I'd probably insist they do whatever needs doing
anyway. Like weed the garden, feed the horses, haul out the trash...
things need doing to make a household run smoothly, and while my kids
grew up understanding that and don't often balk or complain about it,
they're still kids, and sometimes they do, and I smile and tell them
to do it anyway. Or I do it, depending on what they're involved in.
We give and take and the world goes round and round.
>And one last question. Is one of the reasons why you unschool soYes, it was a factor. I hated school, what little of it I attended,
>that your kids can be happier? Does that factor into one of the
>reasons?
and I didn't want my kids subjected to that kind of controlling
atmosphere. But it was only a smallish factor. There were many, many
others which were much more positive!
Helen
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/1/2003 5:13:05 PM Eastern Standard Time,
fetteroll@... writes:
However, we have REALLY eliminated a lot of activity we used to do because so
often we'd rather just stay home. We try and consolidate our "running" into
one day, and if we're not going anyplace fun, I wait till a day my husband is
home and can watch the kids. It takes a lot of planning and patience.
Nancy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
fetteroll@... writes:
> >If you feel like they just have to do something they don't want to (likeI care, but I do realize that there are times we have no choice.
> go to
> >the store because you have to and they can't stay home alone) and they are
> >unhappy about that, and you can't do it any other way, do you care?
>
>
However, we have REALLY eliminated a lot of activity we used to do because so
often we'd rather just stay home. We try and consolidate our "running" into
one day, and if we're not going anyplace fun, I wait till a day my husband is
home and can watch the kids. It takes a lot of planning and patience.
Nancy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kris
<<If you feel like they just have to do something they don't want to (like
go to the store because you have to and they can't stay home alone) and they
are unhappy about that, and you can't do it any other way, do you care?>>
I try to look at it as though I were dragging one of my adult friends to the
store. Yes, I care and I let them know that I'm sorry that they have to do
something they don't like. I offer to make the trip more fun if I can maybe
even offer to do something later that they really like.
Naturally it's harder for them to endure when they are younger but as they
have gotten older they are good natured and pragmatic about these kinds of
things. I think knowing that I wouldn't put them in the position if it
wasn't necessary and that I really do care about their feelings makes it
easier to just go with them flow.
<<And one last question. Is one of the reasons why you unschool so that your
kids can be happier? Does that factor into one of the reasons?>>
I unschool because I want to treat my children, as much as possible, like
dear adult friends so I would say that it does factor in. I want their
entire lives to be as full of happiness and contentment as possible, I think
unschooling is crucial to this.
I wonder how many parents would send a child to school if they knew they
were only going to live to the age of 10. Most likely they would keep them
home and cherish every moment and let them LIVE life. I'm cherishing and
protecting their happiness AND helping them be happier adults too, what a
deal!
Kris
go to the store because you have to and they can't stay home alone) and they
are unhappy about that, and you can't do it any other way, do you care?>>
I try to look at it as though I were dragging one of my adult friends to the
store. Yes, I care and I let them know that I'm sorry that they have to do
something they don't like. I offer to make the trip more fun if I can maybe
even offer to do something later that they really like.
Naturally it's harder for them to endure when they are younger but as they
have gotten older they are good natured and pragmatic about these kinds of
things. I think knowing that I wouldn't put them in the position if it
wasn't necessary and that I really do care about their feelings makes it
easier to just go with them flow.
<<And one last question. Is one of the reasons why you unschool so that your
kids can be happier? Does that factor into one of the reasons?>>
I unschool because I want to treat my children, as much as possible, like
dear adult friends so I would say that it does factor in. I want their
entire lives to be as full of happiness and contentment as possible, I think
unschooling is crucial to this.
I wonder how many parents would send a child to school if they knew they
were only going to live to the age of 10. Most likely they would keep them
home and cherish every moment and let them LIVE life. I'm cherishing and
protecting their happiness AND helping them be happier adults too, what a
deal!
Kris
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/1/03 1:50:16 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
mummy124@... writes:
going to the store, post office, etc. I didn't have anyone I could leave him
with, so I offered a trip to the library to check out videos in return for the
short notice and the unavoidable errand. I don't know if it was his happiness I
was thinking about, or more that it wasn't fair to him to have to go with me
just because he's little and can't stay home alone.
And then there was the time when he wanted to go, but needed to stay home. I
was asked to fill in for someone at work. She was crying in the restroom
because she failed a test at college. They couldn't calm her down. Ds knows my work
days and we always plan who will watch him (usually dad or older brother),
but this was unexpected. The only person was an aunt. He didn't want to stay
with her. Dad would be a few hours before he came home from work. We decided ds
could go with me, dress like me, work like me, etc., till Dad could come pick
him up. He was very excited!
We go by to tell his aunt he won't be staying with her (she happens to be the
manager of the store I was working at). She tells me he can't go. He doesn't
even wait for my response to her, he just runs out the door screaming! She
tells me he will get over it, and that he needs to learn that sometimes people
just have to do things, like go to work.
Wow! Considering the reason I was going to work, I was just amazed at what
she was telling me. A grown woman sits crying at work and I need to go fill in
for her. In the mean time I'm supposed to leave my six year old child screaming
and crying at his aunt's, with no one to care about how he feels.
Well, I told her he goes with me, or my coworker would just have to get over
it. I wasn't leaving him. He did go with me and he had a wonderful time!
I think I mainly think about fairness. It's not really fair for him to be
unhappy because I can't come up with a solution to my problem. In situations like
that, I do what I can to make it fair, which usually makes him happy.
Cheryl
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
mummy124@... writes:
> If you feel like they just have to do something they don't want to (like goToday I had to make an unexpected trip to the post office. Ds does not like
> to the store because you have to and they can't stay home alone) and they
> are unhappy about that, and you can't do it any other way, do you care?
going to the store, post office, etc. I didn't have anyone I could leave him
with, so I offered a trip to the library to check out videos in return for the
short notice and the unavoidable errand. I don't know if it was his happiness I
was thinking about, or more that it wasn't fair to him to have to go with me
just because he's little and can't stay home alone.
And then there was the time when he wanted to go, but needed to stay home. I
was asked to fill in for someone at work. She was crying in the restroom
because she failed a test at college. They couldn't calm her down. Ds knows my work
days and we always plan who will watch him (usually dad or older brother),
but this was unexpected. The only person was an aunt. He didn't want to stay
with her. Dad would be a few hours before he came home from work. We decided ds
could go with me, dress like me, work like me, etc., till Dad could come pick
him up. He was very excited!
We go by to tell his aunt he won't be staying with her (she happens to be the
manager of the store I was working at). She tells me he can't go. He doesn't
even wait for my response to her, he just runs out the door screaming! She
tells me he will get over it, and that he needs to learn that sometimes people
just have to do things, like go to work.
Wow! Considering the reason I was going to work, I was just amazed at what
she was telling me. A grown woman sits crying at work and I need to go fill in
for her. In the mean time I'm supposed to leave my six year old child screaming
and crying at his aunt's, with no one to care about how he feels.
Well, I told her he goes with me, or my coworker would just have to get over
it. I wasn't leaving him. He did go with me and he had a wonderful time!
I think I mainly think about fairness. It's not really fair for him to be
unhappy because I can't come up with a solution to my problem. In situations like
that, I do what I can to make it fair, which usually makes him happy.
Cheryl
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Mary
From: "Helen Hegener" <HEM-Editor@...>
<<I'm not sure what you're looking for here. > >
Well this is only the second post I read to my response but since both you
and Joyce weren't sure what I was looking for, I'll try to clarify why I
asked. Someone made the comment that "they really don't care if their kids
are happy or not." It was in reference to certain situations where the
parents insist the children do something they don't want to do. The example
given was a child having to run an errand with the mom because he can't stay
home alone. Now this has come up with me also, and although the children do
indeed have other things they would rather do, they come along and I really
haven't had a problem with them complaining about it. Maybe because I do try
to not have them be "made" to do things often they don't like. But if they
were mad about it or upset, even though they would still hve to go along, I
certainly would care they were mad or upset. This particular person stated
she didn't care and I heard from someone else who also said they don't care
either. I was waiting for some kind of explanation or "I didn't mean it that
way" and instead got what they said IS what they meant. I was really upset
about that.
Then I asked if that's why we (a general we) unschooled? So that our kids
were happy. I was told that if that's why I unschooled, I was missing the
boat. I made sure to note it's not the only reason why I do unschool. It's
nice to know I'm still on someone's boat!!!
Mary B
<<I'm not sure what you're looking for here. > >
Well this is only the second post I read to my response but since both you
and Joyce weren't sure what I was looking for, I'll try to clarify why I
asked. Someone made the comment that "they really don't care if their kids
are happy or not." It was in reference to certain situations where the
parents insist the children do something they don't want to do. The example
given was a child having to run an errand with the mom because he can't stay
home alone. Now this has come up with me also, and although the children do
indeed have other things they would rather do, they come along and I really
haven't had a problem with them complaining about it. Maybe because I do try
to not have them be "made" to do things often they don't like. But if they
were mad about it or upset, even though they would still hve to go along, I
certainly would care they were mad or upset. This particular person stated
she didn't care and I heard from someone else who also said they don't care
either. I was waiting for some kind of explanation or "I didn't mean it that
way" and instead got what they said IS what they meant. I was really upset
about that.
Then I asked if that's why we (a general we) unschooled? So that our kids
were happy. I was told that if that's why I unschooled, I was missing the
boat. I made sure to note it's not the only reason why I do unschool. It's
nice to know I'm still on someone's boat!!!
Mary B
Mary
From: <NicholasAcademy@...>
<<I think I mainly think about fairness. It's not really fair for him to be
unhappy because I can't come up with a solution to my problem. In situations
like
that, I do what I can to make it fair, which usually makes him happy.>>
Boy did that seem hypocritical leaving your crying child to take over for a
crying woman. I enjoyed your story and good for you!!!
I like how parents here do care and make sure that if situations come up
that aren't the best, they do try and make the best out of that situation. I
think that's important. I think it's a great lesson instead of just letting
the child know the world is full of disappointments. I figure my kids will
come upon them sooner or later, no matter how great of a mom I am. Hopefully
at that point they will be able to deal with them all with the tools they
have been shown.
Mary B
<<I think I mainly think about fairness. It's not really fair for him to be
unhappy because I can't come up with a solution to my problem. In situations
like
that, I do what I can to make it fair, which usually makes him happy.>>
Boy did that seem hypocritical leaving your crying child to take over for a
crying woman. I enjoyed your story and good for you!!!
I like how parents here do care and make sure that if situations come up
that aren't the best, they do try and make the best out of that situation. I
think that's important. I think it's a great lesson instead of just letting
the child know the world is full of disappointments. I figure my kids will
come upon them sooner or later, no matter how great of a mom I am. Hopefully
at that point they will be able to deal with them all with the tools they
have been shown.
Mary B
Kris
<<Wow! Considering the reason I was going to work, I was just amazed at what
she was telling me. A grown woman sits crying at work and I need to go fill
in
for her. In the mean time I'm supposed to leave my six year old child
screaming
and crying at his aunt's, with no one to care about how he feels.
Well, I told her he goes with me, or my coworker would just have to get over
it. I wasn't leaving him. He did go with me and he had a wonderful time>>
Thanks for sharing that Cheryl, what is it about our society that creates an
automatic assumption that kid's needs will the first to go on the chopping
block?
People give me the dirtiest looks because I stop to listen to my children
even when they are being rude due to a melt down. I would listen to my
adult friend, understand that overwhelming emotions are making it hard to be
reasonable, why not even MORE so with children?
Kris
she was telling me. A grown woman sits crying at work and I need to go fill
in
for her. In the mean time I'm supposed to leave my six year old child
screaming
and crying at his aunt's, with no one to care about how he feels.
Well, I told her he goes with me, or my coworker would just have to get over
it. I wasn't leaving him. He did go with me and he had a wonderful time>>
Thanks for sharing that Cheryl, what is it about our society that creates an
automatic assumption that kid's needs will the first to go on the chopping
block?
People give me the dirtiest looks because I stop to listen to my children
even when they are being rude due to a melt down. I would listen to my
adult friend, understand that overwhelming emotions are making it hard to be
reasonable, why not even MORE so with children?
Kris
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/1/03 2:50:37 PM, mummy124@... writes:
<< Do you all really care about the happiness of your children all the time?
Not that you try to make them happy every waking moment, or even that one can.
Just if they are or aren't happy, do you care about that? >>
I try not to ever make them unhappy through my own thoughtlessness or
meanness.
<<If you feel like they just have to do something they don't want to (like go
to the store because you have to and they can't stay home alone) and they are
unhappy about that, and you can't do it any other way, do you care?>>
Sure I care. But I'm not sure what you're thinking or picturing when you ask
"Do you care?"
<<And one last question. Is one of the reasons why you unschool so that your
kids can be happier? Does that factor into one of the reasons?>>
Hugely.
What if you had asked the question:
"If you feel like your husand just has to do something he doesn't want to
(like go to the store because you have to ) and he's unhappy about that, and you
can't do it any other way, do you care?"
My husband's not thrilled that he has to go to work every day, but I can't
say "I don't care."
Sandra
<< Do you all really care about the happiness of your children all the time?
Not that you try to make them happy every waking moment, or even that one can.
Just if they are or aren't happy, do you care about that? >>
I try not to ever make them unhappy through my own thoughtlessness or
meanness.
<<If you feel like they just have to do something they don't want to (like go
to the store because you have to and they can't stay home alone) and they are
unhappy about that, and you can't do it any other way, do you care?>>
Sure I care. But I'm not sure what you're thinking or picturing when you ask
"Do you care?"
<<And one last question. Is one of the reasons why you unschool so that your
kids can be happier? Does that factor into one of the reasons?>>
Hugely.
What if you had asked the question:
"If you feel like your husand just has to do something he doesn't want to
(like go to the store because you have to ) and he's unhappy about that, and you
can't do it any other way, do you care?"
My husband's not thrilled that he has to go to work every day, but I can't
say "I don't care."
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/1/03 4:37:17 PM, NicholasAcademy@... writes:
<< She
tells me he will get over it, and that he needs to learn that sometimes
people
just have to do things, like go to work. >>
Well he was TRYING to go to work!!! <bwg>
Sandra
<< She
tells me he will get over it, and that he needs to learn that sometimes
people
just have to do things, like go to work. >>
Well he was TRYING to go to work!!! <bwg>
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/1/03 5:35:59 PM, mummy124@... writes:
<< Someone made the comment that "they really don't care if their kids
are happy or not." >>
I would not want to go to the store with someone who felt that way about me,
either.
Your kids Do want to go to the store with you!
Keith's home this week. He's leaving tomorrow for five days in Colorado with
a friend of his, but today he was back in the bedroom watching Babylon 5. I
went to put my foot up a while, and fell asleep.
I got a phone call and talked a bit, and Holly came in and said "Aren't we
going to WalMart?"
Keith said I was taking a nap (in such a tone that Holly should wait until I
was through taking a nap). I never take naps! I was asleep accidently. <g>
And I HAD told Holly I would take her to WalMart, so I got up to go. (She
wanted size 10 boys' spiderman underwear, but it only went to 8, after all.)
So on the way out we asked Marty if he needed anything from WalMart. No.
Kirby? No, thanks.
We hung out, looked at stuff, spent $12, got boys' underwear with aliens and
space ships and a few other home-things, a 96 cent can of Pringles because
Kirby had some in his room which Holly didn't eat because they were Kirby's....
everybody's happy.
If I had said "no, I'm taking a nap," Holly wouldn't have been as happy. If
I had not asked the boys if they wanted anything, they would not have been as
happy. It was easy to think of each person on the way by.
Sandra
<< Someone made the comment that "they really don't care if their kids
are happy or not." >>
I would not want to go to the store with someone who felt that way about me,
either.
Your kids Do want to go to the store with you!
Keith's home this week. He's leaving tomorrow for five days in Colorado with
a friend of his, but today he was back in the bedroom watching Babylon 5. I
went to put my foot up a while, and fell asleep.
I got a phone call and talked a bit, and Holly came in and said "Aren't we
going to WalMart?"
Keith said I was taking a nap (in such a tone that Holly should wait until I
was through taking a nap). I never take naps! I was asleep accidently. <g>
And I HAD told Holly I would take her to WalMart, so I got up to go. (She
wanted size 10 boys' spiderman underwear, but it only went to 8, after all.)
So on the way out we asked Marty if he needed anything from WalMart. No.
Kirby? No, thanks.
We hung out, looked at stuff, spent $12, got boys' underwear with aliens and
space ships and a few other home-things, a 96 cent can of Pringles because
Kirby had some in his room which Holly didn't eat because they were Kirby's....
everybody's happy.
If I had said "no, I'm taking a nap," Holly wouldn't have been as happy. If
I had not asked the boys if they wanted anything, they would not have been as
happy. It was easy to think of each person on the way by.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/1/03 5:35:59 PM, mummy124@... writes:
<< Then I asked if that's why we (a general we) unschooled? So that our kids
were happy. I was told that if that's why I unschooled, I was missing the
boat. >>
Huh.
And do they send their kids to school so they will be happy?
So they will be unhappy?
Or do they Just Not Care?
Sad, that they try to make you doubt your conscious choice so they feel
better about their whatever-kind-of-choice.
Sandra
<< Then I asked if that's why we (a general we) unschooled? So that our kids
were happy. I was told that if that's why I unschooled, I was missing the
boat. >>
Huh.
And do they send their kids to school so they will be happy?
So they will be unhappy?
Or do they Just Not Care?
Sad, that they try to make you doubt your conscious choice so they feel
better about their whatever-kind-of-choice.
Sandra
[email protected]
I come up against this same quandry a lot. I think it is because I have 4
children who are all very different. They have different needs, wants,
interests, preferences. I strive to compromise as much as I can to make sure no
one is UNhappy, although, they may not all be as happy as they would like. I do
care about thier happiness, and it's difficult when I can't please everyone,
but, I know sometimes it it just not a possiblity. Take going out to eat for
instance, if all 6 of us go, it's a pretty sure bet that somebody is not
going to just love the restaurant we end up going to. But, we never go somewhere
that someone hates. We have to compromise, take turns, make adjustments.
We don't go to the same restaurant every time, so we all get a chance to eat at
our favorite places. Lots of times, we all agree except one person, and
when it comes down to that, it's got to be a majority rule. ( and again, never
to somewhere someone hates, or even dislikes strongly) I have even went
through a drive thru for someone to get thier food to take in with us to the
"majority choice" restaurant.
I try to always offer alternatives, or give incentives. ( like the video
rental scenario) if there is something I NEED/HAVE to do and a child does not
want to go. If it is feasible for them to stay at home or stay with someone
else, then that is thier option. Of course, that option is much easier now
that most of them are old enough to stay home alone
. I think one of the most important things we can do when a child is unhappy
is to validate thier feelings. Let them know that you understand they are
unhappy. Convey to them that you wish you could do something to make them feel
better.. ask them what you can do to help them feel better. Even if they
are unhappy, at least they know it is not something that you are doing
intentionally "to" them, it's just a circumstance that you (and they)have to deal with.
Teresa
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
children who are all very different. They have different needs, wants,
interests, preferences. I strive to compromise as much as I can to make sure no
one is UNhappy, although, they may not all be as happy as they would like. I do
care about thier happiness, and it's difficult when I can't please everyone,
but, I know sometimes it it just not a possiblity. Take going out to eat for
instance, if all 6 of us go, it's a pretty sure bet that somebody is not
going to just love the restaurant we end up going to. But, we never go somewhere
that someone hates. We have to compromise, take turns, make adjustments.
We don't go to the same restaurant every time, so we all get a chance to eat at
our favorite places. Lots of times, we all agree except one person, and
when it comes down to that, it's got to be a majority rule. ( and again, never
to somewhere someone hates, or even dislikes strongly) I have even went
through a drive thru for someone to get thier food to take in with us to the
"majority choice" restaurant.
I try to always offer alternatives, or give incentives. ( like the video
rental scenario) if there is something I NEED/HAVE to do and a child does not
want to go. If it is feasible for them to stay at home or stay with someone
else, then that is thier option. Of course, that option is much easier now
that most of them are old enough to stay home alone
. I think one of the most important things we can do when a child is unhappy
is to validate thier feelings. Let them know that you understand they are
unhappy. Convey to them that you wish you could do something to make them feel
better.. ask them what you can do to help them feel better. Even if they
are unhappy, at least they know it is not something that you are doing
intentionally "to" them, it's just a circumstance that you (and they)have to deal with.
Teresa
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
> <<And one last question. Is one of the reasons why you unschool so thatOh yeah, I forgot this part of the question.
> your
> kids can be happier? Does that factor into one of the reasons?>>
>
YES. One of my sons was very very unhappy in school. It was all school
related. He still sufferes from "backlash" of his school time. I took him out
of school to help him be happier. My decision to unschool was directly
related to him and how he did not thrive in school settings, doing busy work, taking
tests, etc. . Since he had the most difficulty with "academics" of all of
my children, I looked for homeschooling methods that would be the best for
him. I found unschooling and of course it is wonderful for all of my
children. ( well, except for the one that still goes to school.. BUT, our
unschooling philosophies have spilled over into his ps life too) My boys have never
been "happy" doing school work, so, unschooling is a much MUCH happier existance
for them. Anna was not UNhappy doing schoolwork, she tolerated it and
accepted it. But she is also much happier NOT doing it :-)
Teresa
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Mary
From: <SandraDodd@...>
<<Huh.
And do they send their kids to school so they will be happy?
So they will be unhappy?
Or do they Just Not Care?
Sad, that they try to make you doubt your conscious choice so they feel
better about their whatever-kind-of-choice.>>\
This was from homeschoolers/unschoolers. I am sure that unschooling is the
right thing for us but for a minute, started to wonder if maybe I *was*
missing something I was just too dumb to see.
I just really had a hard time hearing that parents had an "I don't care if
they're happy" attitude about their kids. To me, how can you be good at
unschooling, or even do it at all by most definitions, without caring if
your kids are happy?
Thank you.
(again)
Mary B
<<Huh.
And do they send their kids to school so they will be happy?
So they will be unhappy?
Or do they Just Not Care?
Sad, that they try to make you doubt your conscious choice so they feel
better about their whatever-kind-of-choice.>>\
This was from homeschoolers/unschoolers. I am sure that unschooling is the
right thing for us but for a minute, started to wonder if maybe I *was*
missing something I was just too dumb to see.
I just really had a hard time hearing that parents had an "I don't care if
they're happy" attitude about their kids. To me, how can you be good at
unschooling, or even do it at all by most definitions, without caring if
your kids are happy?
Thank you.
(again)
Mary B
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/1/03 4:35:56 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
mummy124@... writes:
things and they really don't care if they are happy or not. They have a "that's
life" attitude and it almost seems to irritate them if the kids won't just
accept it.
I do care if my child is happy and that makes even my family think I've gone
off the deep end. They think he's in for a rude awakening when he gets out in
"the real world".
Cheryl
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
mummy124@... writes:
> Someone made the comment that "they really don't care if their kidsUnfortunately, nearly everyone I know believes kids "have to" do plenty of
> are happy or not." It was in reference to certain situations where the
> parents insist the children do something they don't want to do.
things and they really don't care if they are happy or not. They have a "that's
life" attitude and it almost seems to irritate them if the kids won't just
accept it.
I do care if my child is happy and that makes even my family think I've gone
off the deep end. They think he's in for a rude awakening when he gets out in
"the real world".
Cheryl
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/1/03 4:38:55 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
louisa@... writes:
good spanking (or whoopin' as they say here in Texas).
Cheryl
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
louisa@... writes:
> People give me the dirtiest looks because I stop to listen to my childrenBoy I know those looks! And the comments about what they really need is a
> even when they are being rude due to a melt down.
good spanking (or whoopin' as they say here in Texas).
Cheryl
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/1/03 4:41:04 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
mummy124@... writes:
get it. Now though, after almost two years of seeing how I interact with him, I
think his aunt (my SIL) is coming around a little.
Cheryl
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
mummy124@... writes:
> Boy did that seem hypocritical leaving your crying child to take over for aThanks! Even when it was put this way to my family later, they still didn't
> crying woman. I enjoyed your story and good for you!!!
>
get it. Now though, after almost two years of seeing how I interact with him, I
think his aunt (my SIL) is coming around a little.
Cheryl
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/1/03 4:56:43 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
adorable, too, in his little pin striped shirt and slacks and tie.
Cheryl
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
> Well he was TRYING to go to work!!! <bwg>LOL! Wish I'd thought to say something like that to her. He was soooo
adorable, too, in his little pin striped shirt and slacks and tie.
Cheryl
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kelly Lenhart
I'm having something of the opposite problem. I'm working really hard,
based a lot on things I've learned here, to try and make the things we do
"have" to do easier and more fun for my 7 year old. We do HAVE to get
groceries. I do HAVE to go to the OB.
And I've NOT done a lot of things that I think his younger brother would
LOVE (ds2 is 2 years old) because big boy baulks at it.
It's getting very tiring to work so hard to make accomodations for his needs
and moods and then get to the end of the day, ask for one hour to watch a tv
show I like and sit still, and watch him have a total melt down. He just
freaks out. I keep trying to explain that, frankly, it's my turn now. I'm
tired, we did a lot, and I would like to watch tv.
It's not like he has to sit in a corner and watch me watch. He has games,
books, etc. He can watch the other tv. I'll sometimes even be willing to
play something with him.
I'm also 8 mos pregnant, so tired for me right now is a bit more than just,
"hey it's been a long day."
I'm wondering if sometimes not having eaten (the one bad to no real
scheduled meals is that you sometimes forget to eat) is a problem, but there
seems to be more to it.
I'm lost.
Kelly
based a lot on things I've learned here, to try and make the things we do
"have" to do easier and more fun for my 7 year old. We do HAVE to get
groceries. I do HAVE to go to the OB.
And I've NOT done a lot of things that I think his younger brother would
LOVE (ds2 is 2 years old) because big boy baulks at it.
It's getting very tiring to work so hard to make accomodations for his needs
and moods and then get to the end of the day, ask for one hour to watch a tv
show I like and sit still, and watch him have a total melt down. He just
freaks out. I keep trying to explain that, frankly, it's my turn now. I'm
tired, we did a lot, and I would like to watch tv.
It's not like he has to sit in a corner and watch me watch. He has games,
books, etc. He can watch the other tv. I'll sometimes even be willing to
play something with him.
I'm also 8 mos pregnant, so tired for me right now is a bit more than just,
"hey it's been a long day."
I'm wondering if sometimes not having eaten (the one bad to no real
scheduled meals is that you sometimes forget to eat) is a problem, but there
seems to be more to it.
I'm lost.
Kelly
Kelly Lenhart
>If I had said "no, I'm taking a nap," Holly wouldn't have been as happy.If
>I had not asked the boys if they wanted anything, they would not have beenas
>happy. It was easy to think of each person on the way by.I'm pretty good about the "asking as you go" thing. Always have been.
>Sandra
But I'm trying to get better about the "yeah, I said we would" stuff. Today
my older son wanted to go BACK to the pool after we got some stuff done. I
didn't really want to and tried to weasel out of it. But I realized that it
would be fun if I just decided to "go with it." And it was.
He still had a total melt down later (see my other post) but I'm really,
really glad I made the choice to go back to the pool.
Kelly
Nichole
----- Original Message -----
From: NicholasAcademy@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 4:35 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-Discussion] happiness of kids
In a message dated 7/1/03 1:50:16 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
mummy124@... writes:
Well, I told her he goes with me, or my coworker would just have to get over
it. I wasn't leaving him. He did go with me and he had a wonderful time!
*****************
That was awesome! Kudos to you for putting your child first! Wonderful!
Nichole
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Mary
From: <grlynbl@...>
<<I think one of the most important things we can do when a child is unhappy
is to validate thier feelings. Let them know that you understand they are
unhappy. Convey to them that you wish you could do something to make them
feel
better.. ask them what you can do to help them feel better. Even if they
are unhappy, at least they know it is not something that you are doing
intentionally "to" them, it's just a circumstance that you (and they)have to
deal with. >>
And I think that is very important. I do it every time I need to. Even with
Alyssa, and sometimes she's just so upset she's not hearing me. But I still
take the time to let her know, even briefly, that I hear what she's saying.
I too also find other ways so that my kids can be happy. Yes it's
inconvenient sometimes for me but so what? I seem to be hearing from others
(not here) that the kids just need to deal with it and the whole *I'm the
mom I say so I don't care how you feel we have to do this* attitude!!!!
When we all went to the water park for the first time this summer, I thought
we would all have a blast. Well Alyssa just had about 30 minutes of it and
she was done for the day. She just doesn't like it right now there. So I
busted my butt to come up with an idea so the other kids could stay as they
were having a blast, and so Alyssa could leave and not have to stay. I
finally got a hold of my mom who came and picked her up. Now when we go, she
happily stays home with no fuss. I figure we can try again next year when
she's older if she wants to.
I also think that acknowledging those feelings the kids have make it so that
when they do *need* to accompany us, there is no big deal. They know we go
out of our way for them and they grow up willing to do the same.
Mary B
<<I think one of the most important things we can do when a child is unhappy
is to validate thier feelings. Let them know that you understand they are
unhappy. Convey to them that you wish you could do something to make them
feel
better.. ask them what you can do to help them feel better. Even if they
are unhappy, at least they know it is not something that you are doing
intentionally "to" them, it's just a circumstance that you (and they)have to
deal with. >>
And I think that is very important. I do it every time I need to. Even with
Alyssa, and sometimes she's just so upset she's not hearing me. But I still
take the time to let her know, even briefly, that I hear what she's saying.
I too also find other ways so that my kids can be happy. Yes it's
inconvenient sometimes for me but so what? I seem to be hearing from others
(not here) that the kids just need to deal with it and the whole *I'm the
mom I say so I don't care how you feel we have to do this* attitude!!!!
When we all went to the water park for the first time this summer, I thought
we would all have a blast. Well Alyssa just had about 30 minutes of it and
she was done for the day. She just doesn't like it right now there. So I
busted my butt to come up with an idea so the other kids could stay as they
were having a blast, and so Alyssa could leave and not have to stay. I
finally got a hold of my mom who came and picked her up. Now when we go, she
happily stays home with no fuss. I figure we can try again next year when
she's older if she wants to.
I also think that acknowledging those feelings the kids have make it so that
when they do *need* to accompany us, there is no big deal. They know we go
out of our way for them and they grow up willing to do the same.
Mary B
Mary
From: <NicholasAcademy@...>
<<I do care if my child is happy and that makes even my family think I've
gone
off the deep end. They think he's in for a rude awakening when he gets out
in
"the real world".>>
Oh yes I hear that a lot from people. Burns my butt really. Like I keep them
in a bubble all day just waiting on them hand and foot.
I kind of went through people telling me what I should do when my kids were
younger. All my kids, when they were little were rather shy. Even Tara was
and well now you would never know it. People kept telling me school was the
best thing for her. Poor kid clung to her teacher for like 5 years. I think
it made it worse for her.
When Joseph was like that, since people knew he wasn't going to go to
school, they suggested all kinds of things like preschools and playgroups
and kinder care classes. Things all very organized and told me not to worry
if he didn't want to go. It would be good for him is what I heard. Never
listened to any of them.
I took Joseph and Sierra to the YuGiOh tournament on Sat. Sierra pretty much
hangs on to me and just watches. This was only the second time I have gone
with Joseph. Joe usually takes him. Well we were there for a few minutes and
Joseph told me he was going to find someone to play with. We were too late
for the tournament. Well no sooner he says that he's off. He went and found
some kids to duel. After that was over, he ended up in another room with
kids that were like 13-15. He walked right up to them and asked if they
wanted to trade some cards. The first kid declined so he went to the next
kid. He ended up trading and getting some cards he really wanted. Like an
old pro. I was really awe struck to see him this way. Very confident and
comfortable.
Joe and I were just talking about this tonight. How we see Sierra just
starting to talk to people she doesn't know. How much she's changed with her
people skills. And then noticing how Alyssa will be yacking away until
someone talks to her that she doesn't know and she just shuts right up and
stares at them. Joe said he's not worried about them at all. After all, look
at how Joseph found his way so well!!!
Mary B
<<I do care if my child is happy and that makes even my family think I've
gone
off the deep end. They think he's in for a rude awakening when he gets out
in
"the real world".>>
Oh yes I hear that a lot from people. Burns my butt really. Like I keep them
in a bubble all day just waiting on them hand and foot.
I kind of went through people telling me what I should do when my kids were
younger. All my kids, when they were little were rather shy. Even Tara was
and well now you would never know it. People kept telling me school was the
best thing for her. Poor kid clung to her teacher for like 5 years. I think
it made it worse for her.
When Joseph was like that, since people knew he wasn't going to go to
school, they suggested all kinds of things like preschools and playgroups
and kinder care classes. Things all very organized and told me not to worry
if he didn't want to go. It would be good for him is what I heard. Never
listened to any of them.
I took Joseph and Sierra to the YuGiOh tournament on Sat. Sierra pretty much
hangs on to me and just watches. This was only the second time I have gone
with Joseph. Joe usually takes him. Well we were there for a few minutes and
Joseph told me he was going to find someone to play with. We were too late
for the tournament. Well no sooner he says that he's off. He went and found
some kids to duel. After that was over, he ended up in another room with
kids that were like 13-15. He walked right up to them and asked if they
wanted to trade some cards. The first kid declined so he went to the next
kid. He ended up trading and getting some cards he really wanted. Like an
old pro. I was really awe struck to see him this way. Very confident and
comfortable.
Joe and I were just talking about this tonight. How we see Sierra just
starting to talk to people she doesn't know. How much she's changed with her
people skills. And then noticing how Alyssa will be yacking away until
someone talks to her that she doesn't know and she just shuts right up and
stares at them. Joe said he's not worried about them at all. After all, look
at how Joseph found his way so well!!!
Mary B
Mary
From: "Kelly Lenhart" <mina@...>
<<I'm wondering if sometimes not having eaten (the one bad to no real
scheduled meals is that you sometimes forget to eat) is a problem, but there
seems to be more to it.>>
For me here, the first things I look at if my kids start to get a little
grumpy or out of sorts is have they eaten and are they tired?? My kids are
pretty good about eating in general but I do find sometimes they need a
little food lift. The big one is them being tired. For all three of the
little ones. Well actually for Tara too!!! I usually talk to them about how
they are feeling and then relate it to them not getting enough sleep or just
having an active day. Lately Joseph and Sierra have been going in the pool
twice a day now. They dont realize how much that wears them out. Especially
the way they play out there and in the sun. Sometimes just sitting down and
having some quiet time helps them get over that hump. I'll suggest we all do
a puzzle or I'll read some books to them. If one is more frustrated than the
other, I may suggest some playtime on the computer or maybe a movie or
something where I can get the 3 of them away from each other to settle down
some. With my kids, sometimes I think it too is a lot of stimulation with
all 3 together so much. Luckily I have the room here to give them some
distance, but I usually have to initiate that as they don't see that as a
problem and will all stay together and fight. I kind of corral one up and
suggest something in a different part of the house. Sometimes I even try to
navigate one to my moms apartment. <BG>
It's getting better now but at times it seems worse. I work on it a lot so
that we don't have major melt downs. It still happens. Today Joseph went
crying in his room because of the way Sierra plays with him. (or doesn't
play) He very rarely cries. Poor kids was upset. He was also tired.
Maybe if you can give us more detail we can think of things that may have
worked for us. I'm sure it's harder for you now too.
Mary B
<<I'm wondering if sometimes not having eaten (the one bad to no real
scheduled meals is that you sometimes forget to eat) is a problem, but there
seems to be more to it.>>
For me here, the first things I look at if my kids start to get a little
grumpy or out of sorts is have they eaten and are they tired?? My kids are
pretty good about eating in general but I do find sometimes they need a
little food lift. The big one is them being tired. For all three of the
little ones. Well actually for Tara too!!! I usually talk to them about how
they are feeling and then relate it to them not getting enough sleep or just
having an active day. Lately Joseph and Sierra have been going in the pool
twice a day now. They dont realize how much that wears them out. Especially
the way they play out there and in the sun. Sometimes just sitting down and
having some quiet time helps them get over that hump. I'll suggest we all do
a puzzle or I'll read some books to them. If one is more frustrated than the
other, I may suggest some playtime on the computer or maybe a movie or
something where I can get the 3 of them away from each other to settle down
some. With my kids, sometimes I think it too is a lot of stimulation with
all 3 together so much. Luckily I have the room here to give them some
distance, but I usually have to initiate that as they don't see that as a
problem and will all stay together and fight. I kind of corral one up and
suggest something in a different part of the house. Sometimes I even try to
navigate one to my moms apartment. <BG>
It's getting better now but at times it seems worse. I work on it a lot so
that we don't have major melt downs. It still happens. Today Joseph went
crying in his room because of the way Sierra plays with him. (or doesn't
play) He very rarely cries. Poor kids was upset. He was also tired.
Maybe if you can give us more detail we can think of things that may have
worked for us. I'm sure it's harder for you now too.
Mary B
Fetteroll
on 7/1/03 9:18 PM, Mary at mummy124@... wrote:
their kids are unhappy while making them do necessary things or to not care
that their kids are unhappy while making them do necessary things.
It boils down to either feeling like the worst mom in the world while you do
things life makes you do, or rationalizing that mom doesn't get a choice
about what life makes her do so kids don't get a choice either.
It's self protection. And people seek other people who've come to the same
conclusion in order to validate that they aren't the worst mom in the world
and it's just the way life is.
Joyce
> I just really had a hard time hearing that parents had an "I don't care ifAnd I think they probably feel that they only have two choices: to care that
> they're happy" attitude about their kids.
their kids are unhappy while making them do necessary things or to not care
that their kids are unhappy while making them do necessary things.
It boils down to either feeling like the worst mom in the world while you do
things life makes you do, or rationalizing that mom doesn't get a choice
about what life makes her do so kids don't get a choice either.
It's self protection. And people seek other people who've come to the same
conclusion in order to validate that they aren't the worst mom in the world
and it's just the way life is.
Joyce
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/1/2003 7:36:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
mummy124@... writes:
path to a happy tomorrow is a happy today."
I work hard for a happy today---for ALL of us. It breaks my heart when I
can't keep them happy----it HAPPENS, but it still breaks my heart!
Yesterday, I picked Duncan up from a friend's. He was NOT happy to go. He
sulked all the way home (short ride <g>). As we walked up the stairs into the
house, he turned and apologized for being a poop and not wanting to leave. He
said, "I'm sorry I didn't want to leave. I just like Alex a lot. But I LOVE
being home and with you." I told him that I understood. That I know how hard it is
to leave friends. He gave me a really big hug, and suddenly everything was
OK. But I hated to see him so sad to leave.
I don't know *why* your friends unschool, but I like what Joyce said:
"The goal of unschooling is not education. It is to help a child be who she
is and blossom into who she will become. Education happens as a side effect."
THAT's my *why*. My *how* is by making his childhood the best I possibly can,
by being there to help and cheer and expose and commiserate---by making (or
helping) him (be) happy.
I'd like to think you're in a very small, but very full, boat!
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
mummy124@... writes:
> Then I asked if that's why we (a general we) unschooled? So that our kidsI think might have been Sandra (I could be wrong) who said, "The shortest
> were happy. I was told that if that's why I unschooled, I was missing the
> boat. I made sure to note it's not the only reason why I do unschool. It's
> nice to know I'm still on someone's boat!!!
path to a happy tomorrow is a happy today."
I work hard for a happy today---for ALL of us. It breaks my heart when I
can't keep them happy----it HAPPENS, but it still breaks my heart!
Yesterday, I picked Duncan up from a friend's. He was NOT happy to go. He
sulked all the way home (short ride <g>). As we walked up the stairs into the
house, he turned and apologized for being a poop and not wanting to leave. He
said, "I'm sorry I didn't want to leave. I just like Alex a lot. But I LOVE
being home and with you." I told him that I understood. That I know how hard it is
to leave friends. He gave me a really big hug, and suddenly everything was
OK. But I hated to see him so sad to leave.
I don't know *why* your friends unschool, but I like what Joyce said:
"The goal of unschooling is not education. It is to help a child be who she
is and blossom into who she will become. Education happens as a side effect."
THAT's my *why*. My *how* is by making his childhood the best I possibly can,
by being there to help and cheer and expose and commiserate---by making (or
helping) him (be) happy.
I'd like to think you're in a very small, but very full, boat!
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Mary
From: "Fetteroll" <fetteroll@...>
<<It boils down to either feeling like the worst mom in the world while you
do
things life makes you do, or rationalizing that mom doesn't get a choice
about what life makes her do so kids don't get a choice either.>>
Yeah Joyce I do think that's it.
<<It's self protection. And people seek other people who've come to the same
conclusion in order to validate that they aren't the worst mom in the world
and it's just the way life is.>>
And boy did I put their panties in a bunch! <BG>
Mary B
<<It boils down to either feeling like the worst mom in the world while you
do
things life makes you do, or rationalizing that mom doesn't get a choice
about what life makes her do so kids don't get a choice either.>>
Yeah Joyce I do think that's it.
<<It's self protection. And people seek other people who've come to the same
conclusion in order to validate that they aren't the worst mom in the world
and it's just the way life is.>>
And boy did I put their panties in a bunch! <BG>
Mary B
Mary
From: <kbcdlovejo@...>
<<I think might have been Sandra (I could be wrong) who said, "The shortest
path to a happy tomorrow is a happy today.">>
I remember reading that now, need to write it down this time. Thanks.
<<I don't know *why* your friends unschool, but I like what Joyce said:
"The goal of unschooling is not education. It is to help a child be who she
is and blossom into who she will become. Education happens as a side
effect.">>
Me neither, they're not my friends, and I like what Joyce said too!!!
<<THAT's my *why*. My *how* is by making his childhood the best I possibly
can,
by being there to help and cheer and expose and commiserate---by making (or
helping) him (be) happy.
I'd like to think you're in a very small, but very full, boat!>>
Thank you much Kelly........and move over, you're squishing me!!!! <BG>
Mary B
<<I think might have been Sandra (I could be wrong) who said, "The shortest
path to a happy tomorrow is a happy today.">>
I remember reading that now, need to write it down this time. Thanks.
<<I don't know *why* your friends unschool, but I like what Joyce said:
"The goal of unschooling is not education. It is to help a child be who she
is and blossom into who she will become. Education happens as a side
effect.">>
Me neither, they're not my friends, and I like what Joyce said too!!!
<<THAT's my *why*. My *how* is by making his childhood the best I possibly
can,
by being there to help and cheer and expose and commiserate---by making (or
helping) him (be) happy.
I'd like to think you're in a very small, but very full, boat!>>
Thank you much Kelly........and move over, you're squishing me!!!! <BG>
Mary B