[email protected]

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom/message/65630

Okay. Thanks to the finder of this!! (Ang, thanks!) I'll put it on the
reading page so it will be easier to find next time (and if I find out it's
already there, I'll be truly embarrassed!).


From here down is what I found while looking. If I had read ALL my e-mail
before looking, I wouldn't have found this. That could be good, or that could
be bad. <bwg>

There are a couple of things below which have changed since it was written,
both about TV. <g> One is we don't get TV Guide anymore, and people do channel
surf *kind of* (meaning I don't notice, and they usually know what's on, as I
did when I was a kid, concerning favorite shows). Unless someone's sitting
down to do something with their hands and they want noise on, I don't see
anyone just clicking through channels. More often they put on a CD or a video/DVD
if they want something just for background.

I was looking for a clue to when it was written, and skimmed to find Holly
was four and Kirby hadn't started karate, so it was seven or eight years ago,
1995ish. It seems it was an e-mail for one worried person, based on an e-mail
exchange with another one.

Quote starts:

This was sent in response to a worried mom. Take what you can use and
forget the rest.


<< If they're college-bound, don't they need to have studied history,
mathematics, science, literature, etc.?>>
<< Mine just wants to play and although I know play is valuable, I don't see
what he has learned from it (academically). What about higher math,
chemistry, writing, etc.? >>

Your kid is eleven years old! Do you play with him? Do you have pattern
blocks or board games or card games or computer games you do together? There are
LOTS of opportunities to discuss things during play, to explain how things
work, why, what certain toys represent in the real world (playing Lego we've
talked about real masonry, catapults, horses, armor, weapons---while messing with
plastic representations).

<<He forgot to capitalize, put periods, or quotation marks and his sentences
were incomplete. Do you teach these things to your children? Perhaps you
don't use an actual program but gently show him how to punctuate or spell the
words?>>

Mine aren't writing, except in a rudimentary way yet. They see me and my
husband write all the time, though. I'm not worried. We always answer their
questions, and they'll ask.

<<Do you make them look up the words? >>

I don't make ANYBODY look up words. I'll look them up for them. I'm a
dictionary fiend, and nobody--adults, friends, relatives, nobody--gets away from me
without at least FAKING an appreciation for dictionaries. <g>

<< As Adrienne said, even to help the kids find areas they are interested in,
means work on her part. She has to be aware that she needs to tell them to
do an art project, for ex.. She can't leave them totally alone or they would
do nothing productive.>>

If she did art in front of them they would want to do it too. If she NEVER
does art on her own, what makes her think her kids need to know how?

<< For ex., unless she teaches them about composers or great artists or
Ancient Greece or latin, etc., she doesn't think they would ever willingly or
knowingly learn about these things. As for writing, how will they learn the fine
points of grammar unless they are taught?>>

She can "expose" them to those topics without "TEACHING" them in a
structured, scheduled way. The fine points of grammar are not necessary to those who
don't want to write. To those who DO like that sort of analytical stuff, she
just needs to offer them the vocabulary and they'll figure out on their own.
There are computer games, paper-games...

I personally disagree with the limiting TV to 1.5 hours after 5:00. Some of
the best stuff for kids is on PBS in the daytime. After 5:00 things get iffy.
Helen, on the other hand, doesn't have a TV.

<<What if your child (like mine) has an interest in one area (Civil War), yet
hardly reads about it and never shows an interest in other historical periods
(mine does, luckily)?>>

Videos. Novels. Ignore the periods he doesn't care about. He'll care
later, or he won't, and the world will still turn, and he can learn what he wants
WHEN he wants. History is NEVER all learned. It's all relative. "Knowing
nothing" is impossible in this culture.

<< My son loves to read, but it's Berenstain Bears chapter books, Garfield
books, Superman comics, or Hardy Boys. All twaddle. No classic books, and he
has them all>>

He's too young. Fifth graders in school are not reading "classic books"
unless forced, and then they're not very hard ones (with a few exceptions, which
being exceptions don't count). You should be reading to him, if you want him
to "know" a certain book--"classics" are not easy, generally, and you could
read to him.

<He says he loves science, but almost never looks at any of the many Usborne
books we have or other science-type books.>>

Read them to him, or pay him to read them aloud to you.

<<He has a whole collection of civil war books, but only looks at the
pictures in the books.>>

I have a huge collection of non-fiction books, mostly history, and some of
them I only look at the pictures in, but when I need to look up details I can
usually remember by the pictures which books dealt with what subjects.

<<Word problems are almost impossible for him; I have to hold his hand and
guide him through them and basically do them for him. >>

No big deal. He's young.

<<Even in cooking, I don't think he can multiply fractions although he's
doing it on paper! >>

No big deal. He's young.

<< When we got 2 puppies this summer, he would not even read the books I got
him about puppy care and training! >>

Did you read them? Did you tell him what was in them? Did you read any to
him? Did you ask him to look something particular up? (He'd probably read
other stuff on the side if he went hunting for a particular piece of information.)

<<Do you teach (or attempt to) your kids anything formally?>>

No.

<<She can't leave them totally alone or they would do nothing productive.>>

She thinks that but can't prove it, because she probably won't leave them
totally alone long enough to see what they would do. At Halloween our kids can
eat all the candy they want, and if they don't like it we encourage them to
chuck it in the trash. Other families ration it out, it lasts a month and the
kids eat every last crumb because it is VALUABLE. Ours is cheap trash, and
half goes in the trash.

It's a study in economics. I have forced my kids to watch TV if they weren't
getting along, and they'd beg to get up and play and I'd say "wait until this
show is over." "We don't like it." "I don't care. Just sit." I'm
serious. A couple of times, but it was all it took. If I use their room for
punishment they'll see it as a prison.

Sandra


<<My dau. channel surfs, so she probably would choose cartoons over PBS. >>

We don't channel surf. Even before we had kids, we subscribed to TV Guide
and unless we know what's on and what we intend to watch, we don't turn it on.
Kids have learned that from us.

<<Rescue 911, Unsolved Mysteries>>

It's interesting--we don't limit TV, but my kids have never seen either of
those shows. <g>

PBS has music, kid-shows, stories, science shows...

<< My dh makes comments to him like, "You know, Ricky, when I was your age I
had already read Robin Hood and King Arthur. I have them here for you to
read." >>

That probably isn't helping. Ricky probably just feels more self-conscious
and might resist reading the books, feeling that when he does he's just
"finally" doing what his dad wanted him to do, instead of what HE wants to do.

<<Science has never been an interest of mine. I would fall asleep if he read
them aloud to me. He likes science, though; I guess I'll have to lay them
out attractively so he'll see them and want to read them! >>

Could be a genetic thing, then. You have no interest in geology, biology,
meteorology, chemistry, physics, oceanography, botany, entomology, astronomy,
flight mechanics, electricity--NOTHING!? Did school ruin your joy in knowing
how things work and what they are made of?

<< I guess I'll get them down and tell him to go to it. I'm just not
interested in getting involved in them.>>

If they're that boring and uninteresting, don't make him do them. If you,
knowing what they're good for, can't stand the thought of touching them, don't
expect him not to pick up on that. Maybe it would be better to let him wait
and get interested on his own than for him to sense that he's doing something
you think is odious.

<< What would you do? Just tell him to go ahead and read the books in his
library? Plan a unit study? Just read the novels together and rent videos?
Give him projects (excuse me, suggest projects) to do? He obviously wants me
involved since he could study it on his own any time he wanted to. He wants me
to direct him, I guess.>>

Ask HIM what he wants. Have you done the museum/bookstore/library circuit?
Costume books? Foods of the period? Architecture of the period? Books on
guns, cannons, bayonets--whatever of the period? I wouldn't petrify it into "a
unit study," but be on the lookout for good stuff.

<< I feel like I'm the one home schooling. I read so much, at least 2-3 h
ours a day, at least. About all sorts of things. I read instead of cleaning
house, home schooling, paying bills, or whatever! I want to learn italics so I
got me a book to learn how. I wanted to learn about the Catholic religion;
I've been reading tons of books. I wanted to learn about British History--I've
been reading biographies. Will my kids ever do this?>>

YES!

Next level to work toward: Forget about the concept of "homeschooling" and
try to move toward the idea that your home/life/family is involved in learning
all the time, so that you don't feel foolish learning all the time, and your
son can't think of any other way to live.

<<So, what do you do in a day? Or rather, what do the kids do? >>

Today, support group meeting (I updated the list, which involved some phone
calls to get spellings of kid-names and verify some info), and I kept two kids
for moms who had stuff to do (surgery for ovarian cyst, in one case), and
picked up a kid in our group whose mom's car wasn't running. Took five kids to
the video store to rent games (dollar day) and a movie, brought them all to my
house, counseled a depressed friend in Toronto, discussed history and
philosophy with a e-mail group from Ontario while the kids played video games, the
little girls played with homemade playdough and watched their videos, played
house, went back to the park hoping the jumpropes we left weren't stolen (they
weren't), kids talked about adding numbers. 1+2+3+ (etc. and all the totals, as
they went). I wasn't in that conversation, although I was overhearing it.
There was a big tag game in the front yard for a while, and a battle of knights
in the backyard, treehouse was a castle, kids had "boffers" (padded toy
swords)... My husband came home with some groceries, grabbed recorders and music
and went to a Renaissance dance music practice. There's another one here
tomorrow night (rehearsal for some dancing in three weeks), and I need to have the
living room clean enough for that.

Sandra


<< I think I feel (for what reason?) that I need to be there to see what he's
learning. Maybe I should just let him do them on his own and tell me about
them or ask for help if he needs it.>>>

Because teachers document stuff. You want to do your teacherly job and
supervise and document. Even if he does them on his own and does NOT tell you
about them he's still learning. You have to develop a faith and a trust which
school conditioned out of you. You're not the only one.

<<He's adopted! I remember as a kid liking to collect rocks and bugs. In
high school biology was pretty cool. Chemistry, meteorology, mechanics,
electricity and physics--ugh. In college I took zoology--just okay. I think as a
kid I liked to learn about birds, too. Oceanography--the creatures are pretty
<g>, amazing, really. I'm more interested in the people of science, their
lives. You know, Madame Curie, Thos. Edison, Enrico Fermi, Louis Pasteur, A.
Bell, etc. Don't really care about how things work or what they're made of. I do
like math though--loved working out those trig proofs, doing Algebra
problems.
>>

AHA!!!! Good. There's hope for him not to inherit your problems. <g>
So it's amazing. You remember LIKING science but you said science was so
boring you would fall asleep hearing your own child read to you. That evil
conditioning again! Don't think of it as science--granulate it. Think of it
as "a book about birds," and "an article about volcanos" and so forth.

I don't even teach my kids the concepts of "science" and "history" and
"geography"--we'll say "let's read about Rome" or "let's read about stars." They'll
figure it out but by then they'll know the parts. School messes people up.

<< His grandmother had a real union uniform custom made for him. He has a
cap, insignia, haversack, gun, canteen, etc. He's been to the Gettysburg
re-enactment. He's taking drumming lessons; specifically civil war drumming! He
plays civil war computer games. He has a bunch of civil war movies. He met the
director of the movie "Gettysburg". But he wants me to "study" it with him!
>>

Sounds wonderful! I'll tell you what--I'm the way he is but about the
middle ages. We've been involved in the Society for Creative Anachronism 20 and 19
years, my husband and I. By knowing the minutest details of one period of
history you get the idea that there are similar minute details about every
other one. When I talk to friends who do civil war reenactment, or Regency (they
dance and play cards a lot <g>), I understand immediately that there are
certain foods, courtesies, superstitions, songs, etc. that they must have found out
about, and that they know WHY people were doing what they were doing (i.e.
that there are motivations out the wazoo concerning any historical period or
event), and it's more the concepts than the facts which are important.

What I'm trying to say is if your kid wants to learn about the Napoleonic
wars, it won't take him half a day to ask the important questions. He already
has the grid in his head to fill out. What were they eating? How were
regiments communicating with one another? Did their uniforms work for or against
them? What was the command structure and how dedicated to their cause were
they? What were their beliefs about the motivations of the enemy?

<<BTW, are your kids involved in activities like music lessons, sports,
gymnastics, etc? Do you do support group activities? Our activities (and we've
cut back to one music lesson and one sports lesson a week, each, plus support
group stuff) keep us pretty busy.>>

No, not yet. The 4-yr-girl wants to take gymnastics and the boys were
signed up for a defense class which fell through and are kind of bugging us for
karate. I have nothing particular against group activities except that I tend to
get sucked into management, newsletters, etc. whenever I get near a group
activity and right now I'm trying to avoid any more commitments on our time and
energy.

<< All is quiet and I want a thin mint girl scout cookie! >>

You can eat just one!?

<< a friend and the county extension agent are coming over to discuss whether
we want to start a 4-H group.>>

I was hit up about starting a 4-H group. Sound AWFUL. (I must really be in
a commitment avoidance phase <g>.) I was in 4-H as a kid. Learned to
arrange flowers and identify seeds, and sang songs. That part I could
handle--leading songs.

<< Is this all we need to do? Sounds like fun!>>

Sounds like about six times as much as the best school in the country does
<g>.

I can't imagine having a husband who would threaten me that HE (yeah right)
would put OUR children in school against my wishes. My husband knows I don't
do things lightly, and he trusts me.

As to having been a teacher, I was a radical teacher. The things I believe
about how children learn were taught to me in college. I was an English major,
but had the requisite 24 hrs of education classes, and had a psychology
minor. When I taught I was (as I can't help but be) very analytical about which
teachers the kids liked and learned from and which were jokes. It seems the
main factors are intelligence and enthusiasm, not method. If there's that
electricity in the air of "THIS STUFF IS COOL!" then whether the kids are goofin' or
answering questions at the end of the chapter, knowing that the teacher
really understands and enjoys the subject makes the kids believe there is actually
something there worth knowing.

I never used textbooks. I used dictionaries and made up my own exercises.
I used a lot of humor. I tried to make things memorable (appealing to
different learning styles, although I wasn't thinking of it in those terms in those
days--I just remembered having vivid memories of days/lessons in my youth when
there was an element of surprise). I wasn't able to get out of
grading/scoring/comparing, and that was the worst heartbreak--"giving F's" and such. I
will never, ever do that again. My children don't fail. I'll move the target
to make them successes.

<< He complains about their attitude, that school isn't everything, but some
of it is in him still. What can I do?>>

Wait. Ignore. Dodge. When he sees your kids happy and enthusiastic about
things he'll know it's okay. He NEEDS to see other homeschool families. If
he won't read the books, read him the good parts in some natural fashion.
If he complains don't defend yourself, but ask things like "why does that
concern you?" because he may talk himself into a corner and realize on his own that
it's a kneejerk concern. If he pushes you might say that as you've read and
studied and he hasn't, you feel insulted that he thinks he knows more about
it than you do, and you'd be glad to discuss a particular book or article if
he's willing to read it.

<<You are my hsing idol, oh great one! >>

OH NO!!! <g>
And here I am looking at your descriptions and thinking your life sounds much
more interesting than mine! <g>

<<Ever been to Medieval Times in Orlando or in NJ? About 1,000 people fit in
there and you watch knights jousting while you eat without utensils and root
for your knight. It's neat. In Orlando they have a medieval village outside
with a falcon show, torture chamber, people weaving, etc. etc.>>

There's one in California too. I've had friends who have been. The bad
thing is that the people eating are wearing modern clothes, and the food isn't
period. <g>

When we have feasts the food is fancier and documentably medieval (usually),
and everyone involved is garbed appropriately and we eat by candlelight. They
don't do candlelit feasts around Virginia and Maryland, and the rest of the
country thinks they're weirdos for eating by electric light <g>.

I really like those things, but I'm so tired of IT (the organization, the
amount of work I keep being expected to do to maintain it) that the magic fades
and I take it for granted. Nineteen years is a long, long time. A lifetime!
(Ask any 19-yr-old <g>)

Sandra

----------------------------------------
end of the quote--
I had forgotten making Marty and Kirby watch TV. When they were little
pre-Holly sometimes I would get frazzled and we were in a very small house and
they were pinball boys sometimes. They turned out okay, though Marty can still
be too loud too fast.