Re: Manners, rank
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/16/2003 3:38:27 AM Eastern Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:
an individual who has "rank" (or not, even), however little regard you have
for the individual, that anything you say will have that much more impact. If
you're rude and berate the individual, your behavior will be more noticeable
than the individual's reprehensibleness. (If that's a word.)
Does that make sense?
Kathryn
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected] writes:
> I will have to think on that more, although my gut reaction is no. But thenI guess one thing that occurs to me is that if you are unfailingly polite to
> I
> think about what if I met the President. I mean once any one reaches the
> status of being an United States President, that rank and title stay
> forever. Yet
> then I pause because I wonder if I truly had access to such a person, would
> my
> personal biases or distain for particular Presidents change my feeling about
>
> their rank or title? I will definately think on this portion harder. Does
> rank
> and title necessarily make one deserved of good manners. i.e. If I were to
> meet Sadam Hussein, the president of Iraq, who I'm pretty sure thinks of
> himself
> as ranking and worthy of said title, would I be polite or use proper
> etiquette, simply because he holds such? Or would my disdain for the
> individual
> override the general politeness during introductions.
>
an individual who has "rank" (or not, even), however little regard you have
for the individual, that anything you say will have that much more impact. If
you're rude and berate the individual, your behavior will be more noticeable
than the individual's reprehensibleness. (If that's a word.)
Does that make sense?
Kathryn
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Mary
From: <KathrynJB@...>
<<Does rank and title necessarily make one deserved of good manners. i.e. >>
Missed some of this whole thread but this one caught my eye. For me the
answer would have to be no. I would be polite to anyone I first met that I
didn't know. If I knew for sure that I didn't like them I would avoid them
so I wouldn't have to show I didn't "want" to be polite. I don't like BS.
This country very openly treats people differently just because of status.
Politicians, actors, musicians, sports stars, even police. That is something
I don't like and won't make it so that my kids see that as normal. They are
all just people. I get bothered with crime being treated so much differently
too. Someone gets murdered and it really makes a difference as to who that
person was. I just don't see that as right. Of course it really makes a
difference as to who did the killing too. I see it all the same. Status
shouldn't matter when it comes to what's right and fair.
Mary B
<<Does rank and title necessarily make one deserved of good manners. i.e. >>
Missed some of this whole thread but this one caught my eye. For me the
answer would have to be no. I would be polite to anyone I first met that I
didn't know. If I knew for sure that I didn't like them I would avoid them
so I wouldn't have to show I didn't "want" to be polite. I don't like BS.
This country very openly treats people differently just because of status.
Politicians, actors, musicians, sports stars, even police. That is something
I don't like and won't make it so that my kids see that as normal. They are
all just people. I get bothered with crime being treated so much differently
too. Someone gets murdered and it really makes a difference as to who that
person was. I just don't see that as right. Of course it really makes a
difference as to who did the killing too. I see it all the same. Status
shouldn't matter when it comes to what's right and fair.
Mary B
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/16/03 7:39:05 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
KathrynJB@... writes:
You very much made sense. This was something I did think about after I logged
off and finally started to play out all these scenarios in my head. Then this
morning, my DH said, what is the debate about Rhonda, because you are pretty
sickenly polite even to people you don't like in a certain settings? Then I
sat and had to come up with occasions in which I wasn't so kind or even
downright mean and he was right, those were not the same types of occasions, therefore
the same interactions hadn't applied. Which then lead him to the times I am
overtly kind in tone, but hateful with words. Damn, he was right again. I have
been know to do a caddy one liner with a smile on my face and then walk away,
leaving those within earshot to wonder if they heard me correctly. Hmmmm, I
have much to think about today.
Rhonda - Whose head is already beginning to ache in contemplation of self
reflection.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
KathrynJB@... writes:
> I guess one thing that occurs to me is that if you are unfailingly politeKathryn,
> to
> an individual who has "rank" (or not, even), however little regard you have
> for the individual, that anything you say will have that much more impact.
> If
> you're rude and berate the individual, your behavior will be more noticeable
>
> than the individual's reprehensibleness. (If that's a word.)
>
> Does that make sense?
>
> Kathryn
>
You very much made sense. This was something I did think about after I logged
off and finally started to play out all these scenarios in my head. Then this
morning, my DH said, what is the debate about Rhonda, because you are pretty
sickenly polite even to people you don't like in a certain settings? Then I
sat and had to come up with occasions in which I wasn't so kind or even
downright mean and he was right, those were not the same types of occasions, therefore
the same interactions hadn't applied. Which then lead him to the times I am
overtly kind in tone, but hateful with words. Damn, he was right again. I have
been know to do a caddy one liner with a smile on my face and then walk away,
leaving those within earshot to wonder if they heard me correctly. Hmmmm, I
have much to think about today.
Rhonda - Whose head is already beginning to ache in contemplation of self
reflection.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/16/03 9:06:13 AM, mummy124@... writes:
<< This country very openly treats people differently just because of status.
Politicians, actors, musicians, sports stars, even police. That is something
I don't like and won't make it so that my kids see that as normal. >>
WHAT??
#1, "status" is real.
#2, in what country do you think people are NOT treated one way or another
because of status?
#3, it IS normal. It's normal historically and geographically.
It's normal primate behavior, it's normal social behavior.
If you do ANYTHING to make your kids think it's not normal, you'll be lying
to them.
Telling them you don't like it is one thing.
Telling them it's not normal is dishonest.
And WHY do you think a policeman should get no deference in a situation in
which he's on duty?
You would listen to a homeless guy as soon as you would a policeman, at any
given situation on any random streetcorner?
Sandra
<< This country very openly treats people differently just because of status.
Politicians, actors, musicians, sports stars, even police. That is something
I don't like and won't make it so that my kids see that as normal. >>
WHAT??
#1, "status" is real.
#2, in what country do you think people are NOT treated one way or another
because of status?
#3, it IS normal. It's normal historically and geographically.
It's normal primate behavior, it's normal social behavior.
If you do ANYTHING to make your kids think it's not normal, you'll be lying
to them.
Telling them you don't like it is one thing.
Telling them it's not normal is dishonest.
And WHY do you think a policeman should get no deference in a situation in
which he's on duty?
You would listen to a homeless guy as soon as you would a policeman, at any
given situation on any random streetcorner?
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/16/03 9:06:13 AM, mummy124@... writes:
<< They are
all just people. I get bothered with crime being treated so much differently
too. Someone gets murdered and it really makes a difference as to who that
person was. I just don't see that as right. Of course it really makes a
difference as to who did the killing too. I see it all the same. Status
shouldn't matter when it comes to what's right and fair.
Rant continues.
This bothers you?
"Status shouldn't matter..."
But John Lennon was murdered BECAUSE of his status. And what kind of guy
would travel that far to kill John Lennon? Without that, there's no story, no
motive, no crime!
John F. Kennedy was murdered because he was president. It MATTERS that he
was president. It's not just someone being rude and prejudice to think his
murder affected more people than when Rag Man was burned on his mattress in some
alley in Albuquerque. Than when/if my half-brother is finally offed by
someone he's robbing. (My mom didn't kill him, but someone probably will.)
Sandra
<< They are
all just people. I get bothered with crime being treated so much differently
too. Someone gets murdered and it really makes a difference as to who that
person was. I just don't see that as right. Of course it really makes a
difference as to who did the killing too. I see it all the same. Status
shouldn't matter when it comes to what's right and fair.
>>Sorry. In my prior rant, I didn't read the rest of the post.
Rant continues.
This bothers you?
"Status shouldn't matter..."
But John Lennon was murdered BECAUSE of his status. And what kind of guy
would travel that far to kill John Lennon? Without that, there's no story, no
motive, no crime!
John F. Kennedy was murdered because he was president. It MATTERS that he
was president. It's not just someone being rude and prejudice to think his
murder affected more people than when Rag Man was burned on his mattress in some
alley in Albuquerque. Than when/if my half-brother is finally offed by
someone he's robbing. (My mom didn't kill him, but someone probably will.)
Sandra
Mary
From: <SandraDodd@...>
<<#1, "status" is real.>>
Yeah I suppose it is.
<<#2, in what country do you think people are NOT treated one way or another
because of status?>>
I comment only on this country because that's what I know being that I live
her. Can't really say how things are other places. I know it's not just THIS
country but it's where I am.
<<#3, it IS normal. It's normal historically and geographically.
It's normal primate behavior, it's normal social behavior.
If you do ANYTHING to make your kids think it's not normal, you'll be lying
to them.
Telling them you don't like it is one thing.
Telling them it's not normal is dishonest.
And WHY do you think a policeman should get no deference in a situation in
which he's on duty?
You would listen to a homeless guy as soon as you would a policeman, at any
given situation on any random streetcorner?>>
I'm taling about from the stand point of manners. That's what I saw and was
commenting on to begin with. Like I said I hadn't followed the whole thread.
I just don't see where I think it's appropriate to treat anyone more
mannerly or with more respect just on the fact of who they are or much money
they make or what they do for a living.
And so just like my kids don't see color or religion making a difference as
to how nice they are to someone, then status shouldn't either.
Mary B
<<#1, "status" is real.>>
Yeah I suppose it is.
<<#2, in what country do you think people are NOT treated one way or another
because of status?>>
I comment only on this country because that's what I know being that I live
her. Can't really say how things are other places. I know it's not just THIS
country but it's where I am.
<<#3, it IS normal. It's normal historically and geographically.
It's normal primate behavior, it's normal social behavior.
If you do ANYTHING to make your kids think it's not normal, you'll be lying
to them.
Telling them you don't like it is one thing.
Telling them it's not normal is dishonest.
And WHY do you think a policeman should get no deference in a situation in
which he's on duty?
You would listen to a homeless guy as soon as you would a policeman, at any
given situation on any random streetcorner?>>
I'm taling about from the stand point of manners. That's what I saw and was
commenting on to begin with. Like I said I hadn't followed the whole thread.
I just don't see where I think it's appropriate to treat anyone more
mannerly or with more respect just on the fact of who they are or much money
they make or what they do for a living.
And so just like my kids don't see color or religion making a difference as
to how nice they are to someone, then status shouldn't either.
Mary B
Mary
From: <SandraDodd@...>
<<This bothers you?
"Status shouldn't matter..."
But John Lennon was murdered BECAUSE of his status. And what kind of guy
would travel that far to kill John Lennon? Without that, there's no story,
no
motive, no crime!
John F. Kennedy was murdered because he was president. It MATTERS that he
was president. It's not just someone being rude and prejudice to think his
murder affected more people than when Rag Man was burned on his mattress in
some
alley in Albuquerque. Than when/if my half-brother is finally offed by
someone he's robbing. (My mom didn't kill him, but someone probably
will.)>>
And people who aren't "anyone" get killed all the time too. I'm not saying
those status people's death doesn't affect more people, I'm saying how those
that killed get treated differently because of who they killed. Kill a cop
and it seems like so much more of a deal than someone's son who worked at
Burger King. All out manhunt for the first and not for the second. I don't
see that as right. It wasn't my point to say who died, it was to say how
that offender gets treated because of who died. Kill a bunch of hookers or
druggies and the police just don't work as hard on it from what I see. And
I'm being general here.
Mary B
<<This bothers you?
"Status shouldn't matter..."
But John Lennon was murdered BECAUSE of his status. And what kind of guy
would travel that far to kill John Lennon? Without that, there's no story,
no
motive, no crime!
John F. Kennedy was murdered because he was president. It MATTERS that he
was president. It's not just someone being rude and prejudice to think his
murder affected more people than when Rag Man was burned on his mattress in
some
alley in Albuquerque. Than when/if my half-brother is finally offed by
someone he's robbing. (My mom didn't kill him, but someone probably
will.)>>
And people who aren't "anyone" get killed all the time too. I'm not saying
those status people's death doesn't affect more people, I'm saying how those
that killed get treated differently because of who they killed. Kill a cop
and it seems like so much more of a deal than someone's son who worked at
Burger King. All out manhunt for the first and not for the second. I don't
see that as right. It wasn't my point to say who died, it was to say how
that offender gets treated because of who died. Kill a bunch of hookers or
druggies and the police just don't work as hard on it from what I see. And
I'm being general here.
Mary B
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/16/03 12:27:26 PM, mummy124@... writes:
<< <<#2, in what country do you think people are NOT treated one way or
another
because of status?>>
<<I comment only on this country because that's what I know being that I live
her. Can't really say how things are other places. >>
Generally, worse. More extreme on cultural differences.
You can't look at your own culture in isolation and make good judgments about
cultural issues.
I think especially when discussing something that involves relationships
(root word is "relate," and "relative" has to do with rank and comparisons), it
helps to know what the range of possibilites is.
<<I just don't see where I think it's appropriate to treat anyone more
mannerly or with more respect just on the fact of who they are >>
This is bizarre to me, honestly.
Who they are DOES determine how you feel about them, and how you will
ultimately treat them. You might say "hello" the same way, but which one can stay at
your house for an hour? Which overnight? For a week?
<<... or much money
they make or what they do for a living.>>
That's way too simplistic. You've never met anyone and been introduced and
known how much money he made and nothing else about him. And what they do for
a living has NO bearing to you on how you will treat them? Pickpockets,
senators, nuns, hookers, all the same in your mind?
<<And so just like my kids don't see color or religion making a difference as
to how nice they are to someone, then status shouldn't either.>>
Acknowledging rank or accomplishment in the absence of racial prejudice is
pretty ideal, I think. Ignoring ALL of it seems to defeat reason.
On Mother's Day you're a mom and you outrank ote table if your family takes
you out to dinner. Should people NEVER treat you special, no matter where or
who you are?
Sandra
<< <<#2, in what country do you think people are NOT treated one way or
another
because of status?>>
<<I comment only on this country because that's what I know being that I live
her. Can't really say how things are other places. >>
Generally, worse. More extreme on cultural differences.
You can't look at your own culture in isolation and make good judgments about
cultural issues.
I think especially when discussing something that involves relationships
(root word is "relate," and "relative" has to do with rank and comparisons), it
helps to know what the range of possibilites is.
<<I just don't see where I think it's appropriate to treat anyone more
mannerly or with more respect just on the fact of who they are >>
This is bizarre to me, honestly.
Who they are DOES determine how you feel about them, and how you will
ultimately treat them. You might say "hello" the same way, but which one can stay at
your house for an hour? Which overnight? For a week?
<<... or much money
they make or what they do for a living.>>
That's way too simplistic. You've never met anyone and been introduced and
known how much money he made and nothing else about him. And what they do for
a living has NO bearing to you on how you will treat them? Pickpockets,
senators, nuns, hookers, all the same in your mind?
<<And so just like my kids don't see color or religion making a difference as
to how nice they are to someone, then status shouldn't either.>>
Acknowledging rank or accomplishment in the absence of racial prejudice is
pretty ideal, I think. Ignoring ALL of it seems to defeat reason.
On Mother's Day you're a mom and you outrank ote table if your family takes
you out to dinner. Should people NEVER treat you special, no matter where or
who you are?
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/16/03 12:31:50 PM, mummy124@... writes:
<< I'm saying how those
that killed get treated differently because of who they killed. Kill a cop
and it seems like so much more of a deal than someone's son who worked at
Burger King. All out manhunt for the first and not for the second. I don't
see that as right. >>
WHY did they kill a cop?
Was the burger king kid fooling with his girlfriend?
There are bullets called "cop killers."
I'm sure there are no bullets called "frycook killers."
It matters.
<<It wasn't my point to say who died, it was to say how
that offender gets treated because of who died. >>
In vehicular manslaughter, it won't matter. If you accidently kill someone
and didn't know who they were before, THEN it doesn't matter.
If you knew who they were, you probably had a reason. And that reason
matters.
<<Kill a bunch of hookers or druggies and the police just don't work as hard
on it from what I see. And I'm being general here.>>
So your point is making my point.
People Do have differing and relative social value.
There IS rank.
The big news here has been meth labs. A house two houses from us, behind the
house straight across the cul-de-sac from us, was cleaned out to bare frame
in some places when they busted a meth lab there. Had I gone nuts that day and
gone over and shot someone, should it matter whether I shot one of the meth
dealers or a fireman or cop?
They all had equal rights, but they didn't all make the same decisions with
their lives, and so what starts already unequal sometimes becomes more unequal
as life goes on. Someone born disadvantaged (financially, mentally, socially)
can rise above that. Someone born advantaged (rich, good looking, bright)
can live in ways that do NOT get them the respect they might have been born
close to).
You would probably be more angry if a senator went in and killed a Burger
King employee than if a drug dealer did. Why?
Sandra
<< I'm saying how those
that killed get treated differently because of who they killed. Kill a cop
and it seems like so much more of a deal than someone's son who worked at
Burger King. All out manhunt for the first and not for the second. I don't
see that as right. >>
WHY did they kill a cop?
Was the burger king kid fooling with his girlfriend?
There are bullets called "cop killers."
I'm sure there are no bullets called "frycook killers."
It matters.
<<It wasn't my point to say who died, it was to say how
that offender gets treated because of who died. >>
In vehicular manslaughter, it won't matter. If you accidently kill someone
and didn't know who they were before, THEN it doesn't matter.
If you knew who they were, you probably had a reason. And that reason
matters.
<<Kill a bunch of hookers or druggies and the police just don't work as hard
on it from what I see. And I'm being general here.>>
So your point is making my point.
People Do have differing and relative social value.
There IS rank.
The big news here has been meth labs. A house two houses from us, behind the
house straight across the cul-de-sac from us, was cleaned out to bare frame
in some places when they busted a meth lab there. Had I gone nuts that day and
gone over and shot someone, should it matter whether I shot one of the meth
dealers or a fireman or cop?
They all had equal rights, but they didn't all make the same decisions with
their lives, and so what starts already unequal sometimes becomes more unequal
as life goes on. Someone born disadvantaged (financially, mentally, socially)
can rise above that. Someone born advantaged (rich, good looking, bright)
can live in ways that do NOT get them the respect they might have been born
close to).
You would probably be more angry if a senator went in and killed a Burger
King employee than if a drug dealer did. Why?
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/16/03 11:27:04 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
mummy124@... writes:
The initial part of the thread was about manners, then rank became a part of
the topic, where introductions are supposed to be done based on ones rank. I
however, agree with you in that rank SHOULD have no factor where kindness is
the treatment we are looking for especially for introductions. Problem is, we
aren't all looking for the same thing. Which is also OK. I do, however, fully
comprehend and understand the protocol, I just choose not to buy into it. When I
attended school, "charm" was a required class in the eighth grade in order to
graduate. Maybe that's where my disdain stems from.
Rhonda - who got an A+ in charm, even though she hated it.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
mummy124@... writes:
> I just don't see where I think it's appropriate to treat anyone moreYes Mary,
> mannerly or with more respect just on the fact of who they are or much money
> they make or what they do for a living.
>
> And so just like my kids don't see color or religion making a difference as
> to how nice they are to someone, then status shouldn't either.
>
> Mary B
>
The initial part of the thread was about manners, then rank became a part of
the topic, where introductions are supposed to be done based on ones rank. I
however, agree with you in that rank SHOULD have no factor where kindness is
the treatment we are looking for especially for introductions. Problem is, we
aren't all looking for the same thing. Which is also OK. I do, however, fully
comprehend and understand the protocol, I just choose not to buy into it. When I
attended school, "charm" was a required class in the eighth grade in order to
graduate. Maybe that's where my disdain stems from.
Rhonda - who got an A+ in charm, even though she hated it.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
I have a question along these lines...
How do you all handle Thank You cards?
I remember my dad always forcing us to write them, and we thought it was silly. Now as an adult, I can see how thoughtless it is for someone (say a bride) to overlook any money and time spent in chosing a gift by not responding with a card. In cases of gifts sent long-distance, a card let's the sender know that the gift was received. How do we teach our kids to show appreciation for gifts without forcing Thank You cards?
Shalom,
Raine
**Knowledge which is acquired under compulsion obtains no hold on the mind.
~ Plato**
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
How do you all handle Thank You cards?
I remember my dad always forcing us to write them, and we thought it was silly. Now as an adult, I can see how thoughtless it is for someone (say a bride) to overlook any money and time spent in chosing a gift by not responding with a card. In cases of gifts sent long-distance, a card let's the sender know that the gift was received. How do we teach our kids to show appreciation for gifts without forcing Thank You cards?
Shalom,
Raine
**Knowledge which is acquired under compulsion obtains no hold on the mind.
~ Plato**
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Have A Nice Day!
This is just my take on this particular conversation.
I think Mary agrees that rank exists. The argument is about whether its right.
Kristen
I think Mary agrees that rank exists. The argument is about whether its right.
Kristen
----- Original Message -----
From: SandraDodd@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, June 16, 2003 2:46 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Manners, rank
In a message dated 6/16/03 12:31:50 PM, mummy124@... writes:
<< I'm saying how those
that killed get treated differently because of who they killed. Kill a cop
and it seems like so much more of a deal than someone's son who worked at
Burger King. All out manhunt for the first and not for the second. I don't
see that as right. >>
WHY did they kill a cop?
Was the burger king kid fooling with his girlfriend?
There are bullets called "cop killers."
I'm sure there are no bullets called "frycook killers."
It matters.
<<It wasn't my point to say who died, it was to say how
that offender gets treated because of who died. >>
In vehicular manslaughter, it won't matter. If you accidently kill someone
and didn't know who they were before, THEN it doesn't matter.
If you knew who they were, you probably had a reason. And that reason
matters.
<<Kill a bunch of hookers or druggies and the police just don't work as hard
on it from what I see. And I'm being general here.>>
So your point is making my point.
People Do have differing and relative social value.
There IS rank.
The big news here has been meth labs. A house two houses from us, behind the
house straight across the cul-de-sac from us, was cleaned out to bare frame
in some places when they busted a meth lab there. Had I gone nuts that day and
gone over and shot someone, should it matter whether I shot one of the meth
dealers or a fireman or cop?
They all had equal rights, but they didn't all make the same decisions with
their lives, and so what starts already unequal sometimes becomes more unequal
as life goes on. Someone born disadvantaged (financially, mentally, socially)
can rise above that. Someone born advantaged (rich, good looking, bright)
can live in ways that do NOT get them the respect they might have been born
close to).
You would probably be more angry if a senator went in and killed a Burger
King employee than if a drug dealer did. Why?
Sandra
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Have A Nice Day!
Thank you for bringing this up. I too was wondering about this.
Kristen
Kristen
----- Original Message -----
From: rainelovesj@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, June 16, 2003 3:29 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Manners, rank
I have a question along these lines...
How do you all handle Thank You cards?
I remember my dad always forcing us to write them, and we thought it was silly. Now as an adult, I can see how thoughtless it is for someone (say a bride) to overlook any money and time spent in chosing a gift by not responding with a card. In cases of gifts sent long-distance, a card let's the sender know that the gift was received. How do we teach our kids to show appreciation for gifts without forcing Thank You cards?
Shalom,
Raine
**Knowledge which is acquired under compulsion obtains no hold on the mind.
~ Plato**
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/16/03 12:33:06 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
rainelovesj@... writes:
cards. Hate getting them, hate receiving them. They seem fake and impersonal. I'd
rather get a phone call. Or even just a thank you in person the next occasion
we see each other at. The only time Thank You cards have not bothered me, is
when someone has moved away and lives so far or on a different clock and
therefore we won't see each other perhaps for a very long time, nor will we
necessarily talk on the phone due to time differences.
So in answer to your question, I don't teach my kids to send notes of
gratitude. Rather I have demonstrated acts of gratitude and made available to them,
cards for all occasions to be used at their will, when they find something
worthy of sending any type of card.
Rhonda - who is noticing just how much she really does buck the system
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
rainelovesj@... writes:
> I have a question along these lines...Well from the A+ earner in charm, I absolutley, positively hate Thank You
> How do you all handle Thank You cards?
> I remember my dad always forcing us to write them, and we thought it was
> silly. Now as an adult, I can see how thoughtless it is for someone (say a
> bride) to overlook any money and time spent in chosing a gift by not responding
> with a card. In cases of gifts sent long-distance, a card let's the sender know
> that the gift was received. How do we teach our kids to show appreciation
> for gifts without forcing Thank You cards?
> Shalom,
> Raine
>
cards. Hate getting them, hate receiving them. They seem fake and impersonal. I'd
rather get a phone call. Or even just a thank you in person the next occasion
we see each other at. The only time Thank You cards have not bothered me, is
when someone has moved away and lives so far or on a different clock and
therefore we won't see each other perhaps for a very long time, nor will we
necessarily talk on the phone due to time differences.
So in answer to your question, I don't teach my kids to send notes of
gratitude. Rather I have demonstrated acts of gratitude and made available to them,
cards for all occasions to be used at their will, when they find something
worthy of sending any type of card.
Rhonda - who is noticing just how much she really does buck the system
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/16/03 11:51:05 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
Although the post you were responding to was not mine, I do have to chime in
here, to say I DO KNOW that rank exists. However my point of contention has
been on it's validity. Realizing that my questioning will not in any way
eleviate the existance of rank, I do however believe that if my children understand
my POV, whilst understanding that rank exists, then they will have the where
with all to decide for themselves whether rank is of importance to them. Does
that even make sense or am I starting to babble?
Rhonda
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
> So your point is making my point.Sandra,
> People Do have differing and relative social value.
> There IS rank.
>
Although the post you were responding to was not mine, I do have to chime in
here, to say I DO KNOW that rank exists. However my point of contention has
been on it's validity. Realizing that my questioning will not in any way
eleviate the existance of rank, I do however believe that if my children understand
my POV, whilst understanding that rank exists, then they will have the where
with all to decide for themselves whether rank is of importance to them. Does
that even make sense or am I starting to babble?
Rhonda
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Have A Nice Day!
OOps, I thought it was Mary that was making that point.
I'm so confoooosssed.
Kristen
I'm so confoooosssed.
Kristen
----- Original Message -----
From: RJHill241@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, June 16, 2003 4:08 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Manners, rank
In a message dated 6/16/03 11:51:05 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
> So your point is making my point.
> People Do have differing and relative social value.
> There IS rank.
>
Sandra,
Although the post you were responding to was not mine, I do have to chime in
here, to say I DO KNOW that rank exists. However my point of contention has
been on it's validity. Realizing that my questioning will not in any way
eleviate the existance of rank, I do however believe that if my children understand
my POV, whilst understanding that rank exists, then they will have the where
with all to decide for themselves whether rank is of importance to them. Does
that even make sense or am I starting to babble?
Rhonda
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/16/03 11:31:59 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
mummy124@... writes:
if you are the mother of the cop or the mother of the Burger King kid, you do
not give a rat's ass what anyones rank is, you just want justice. And I agree
that the cop by virtue of his choice in employment by no means outranks in
humanity over the fry cook.
Rhonda - still ranting about rank
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
mummy124@... writes:
> Kill a copUnfortunately, what you say is undeniably true. It is sad and pathetic. And
> and it seems like so much more of a deal than someone's son who worked at
> Burger King. All out manhunt for the first and not for the second. I don't
> see that as right. It wasn't my point to say who died, it was to say how
> that offender gets treated because of who died
if you are the mother of the cop or the mother of the Burger King kid, you do
not give a rat's ass what anyones rank is, you just want justice. And I agree
that the cop by virtue of his choice in employment by no means outranks in
humanity over the fry cook.
Rhonda - still ranting about rank
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/16/03 1:21:58 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
litlrooh@... writes:
on ranking.
Rhonda - Hey say that 5 times fast!!! LOL
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
litlrooh@... writes:
> OOps, I thought it was Mary that was making that point.It was Mary, Kristen! LOL Sorry, I just am on a ranting and raving rampage
>
> I'm so confoooosssed.
>
> Kristen
>
on ranking.
Rhonda - Hey say that 5 times fast!!! LOL
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/16/03 1:33:15 PM, rainelovesj@... writes:
<< How do we teach our kids to show appreciation for gifts without forcing
Thank You cards? >>
Sometimes I've sent a photo of the kid using the thing and said thanks, and
told a story about him enjoying it. Or I just call or e-mail and say it was
really cool, and thanks for being there, and thanks for getting him such a cool
thing.
I've pressed for thank-you notes a couple of times, to grandma.
I think writing myself is better than pressing, and when I get a forced thank
you card from someone else's kid, I feel sad.
Sandra
<< How do we teach our kids to show appreciation for gifts without forcing
Thank You cards? >>
Sometimes I've sent a photo of the kid using the thing and said thanks, and
told a story about him enjoying it. Or I just call or e-mail and say it was
really cool, and thanks for being there, and thanks for getting him such a cool
thing.
I've pressed for thank-you notes a couple of times, to grandma.
I think writing myself is better than pressing, and when I get a forced thank
you card from someone else's kid, I feel sad.
Sandra
[email protected]
<< I think Mary agrees that rank exists. The argument is about whether its
right. >>
How can that happen though?
How can there be ANY group of mammals, let alone humans with language,
traditions, religion, and all that, in which there is no heirarchy?
People operate within heirarchies bigtime.
That's why mixed age groups of kids help the little ones learn much better
than same-age school classes of all the same-age kids. Kids will create their
own heirarchy within every third grade classroom on earth BECAUSE human
interaction inherently involves rank.
Sandra
right. >>
How can that happen though?
How can there be ANY group of mammals, let alone humans with language,
traditions, religion, and all that, in which there is no heirarchy?
People operate within heirarchies bigtime.
That's why mixed age groups of kids help the little ones learn much better
than same-age school classes of all the same-age kids. Kids will create their
own heirarchy within every third grade classroom on earth BECAUSE human
interaction inherently involves rank.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/16/03 2:12:35 PM, RJHill241@... writes:
<< Realizing that my questioning will not in any way
eleviate the existance of rank, I do however believe that if my children
understand
my POV, whilst understanding that rank exists, then they will have the where
with all to decide for themselves whether rank is of importance to them. Does
that even make sense or am I starting to babble? >>
It makes sense in that I understand what you're saying, but it doesn't make
sense socially and morally to me. I think telling them they have the option of
ignoring reality is a disservice to them.
Sandra
<< Realizing that my questioning will not in any way
eleviate the existance of rank, I do however believe that if my children
understand
my POV, whilst understanding that rank exists, then they will have the where
with all to decide for themselves whether rank is of importance to them. Does
that even make sense or am I starting to babble? >>
It makes sense in that I understand what you're saying, but it doesn't make
sense socially and morally to me. I think telling them they have the option of
ignoring reality is a disservice to them.
Sandra
Have A Nice Day!
I don't know Sandra,
Rank has never been a big issue to me personally, at least I don't think it is. I know it exists but I try not to let it affect my life too much.
I can't think of anyone I treat differently because of "rank". Well, except my husband's boss and his wife and my Martial Arts instructor during class time.
I guess the whole "rank" issue was a source of toxic relationships in my life, so I've done the best I can to eliminate it because of the power struggles that seem to go with it.
The exceptions are when I *choose* to partake of it (like the Martial Arts class or the SCA (hopefully getting involved in that at some point). But in mainstream day to day life, I really don't personally run into it that much, or maybe I just don't recognize it.
Kristen
Rank has never been a big issue to me personally, at least I don't think it is. I know it exists but I try not to let it affect my life too much.
I can't think of anyone I treat differently because of "rank". Well, except my husband's boss and his wife and my Martial Arts instructor during class time.
I guess the whole "rank" issue was a source of toxic relationships in my life, so I've done the best I can to eliminate it because of the power struggles that seem to go with it.
The exceptions are when I *choose* to partake of it (like the Martial Arts class or the SCA (hopefully getting involved in that at some point). But in mainstream day to day life, I really don't personally run into it that much, or maybe I just don't recognize it.
Kristen
----- Original Message -----
From: SandraDodd@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, June 16, 2003 4:31 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Manners, rank
<< I think Mary agrees that rank exists. The argument is about whether its
right. >>
How can that happen though?
How can there be ANY group of mammals, let alone humans with language,
traditions, religion, and all that, in which there is no heirarchy?
People operate within heirarchies bigtime.
That's why mixed age groups of kids help the little ones learn much better
than same-age school classes of all the same-age kids. Kids will create their
own heirarchy within every third grade classroom on earth BECAUSE human
interaction inherently involves rank.
Sandra
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/16/03 1:37:28 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
Thank you so much for validating that I am still at least coherent. But the
option is not about ignoring reality, but changing it rather. So for me it
would seem a bigger disservice to tell them they have no power to change reality.
Reality is, the US of A requires compulsory education, varying from state to
state over age, however, all of us are bucking that reality by unschooling. So
what is more important, accepting reality as unchangable or accepting reality
and learning to stand tall if we want it to change?
Rhonda - who also questions reality, but that is an entirely different topic
and far too exhausting ROFLMAO
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
> It makes sense in that I understand what you're saying, but it doesn't makeSandra,
>
> sense socially and morally to me. I think telling them they have the option
> of
> ignoring reality is a disservice to them.
>
> Sandra
>
Thank you so much for validating that I am still at least coherent. But the
option is not about ignoring reality, but changing it rather. So for me it
would seem a bigger disservice to tell them they have no power to change reality.
Reality is, the US of A requires compulsory education, varying from state to
state over age, however, all of us are bucking that reality by unschooling. So
what is more important, accepting reality as unchangable or accepting reality
and learning to stand tall if we want it to change?
Rhonda - who also questions reality, but that is an entirely different topic
and far too exhausting ROFLMAO
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Mary
From: <SandraDodd@...>
<<I just don't see where I think it's appropriate to treat anyone more
mannerly or with more respect just on the fact of who they are >>
<<This is bizarre to me, honestly.
Who they are DOES determine how you feel about them, and how you will
ultimately treat them. You might say "hello" the same way, but which one
can stay at
your house for an hour? Which overnight? For a week?>>
Not really who they are but how they are. How they act, if they are nice and
respectful and I enjoy them. And who they are has nothing to do with how
long they can stay here. It goes back to how they act. My MIL wouldn't "out
rank" a friend I've only know for a few months just because she is my MIL.
<<That's way too simplistic. You've never met anyone and been introduced
and
known how much money he made and nothing else about him. And what they do
for
a living has NO bearing to you on how you will treat them? Pickpockets,
senators, nuns, hookers, all the same in your mind?>>
If the first was a question, then yes I have met people who I know are
wealthy and nothing else about them. Makes no difference to my in how I feel
about them when I meet them. And what they do for a living doesn't have a
bearing on how I treat them.
I've never met a pickpocket so I can't say. I have met politicians and nuns
and hookers. I have spoken to them and treated them all the same when we
met. Of course after spending some time with them, I might change my
behavior as in relaxing a bit more or changing my language, but I would get
that cue from them personally, not having anything to do with what they do
or did for a living. There are hookers I wouldn't feel comfortable swearing
around and politicians I would.
<<On Mother's Day you're a mom and you outrank ote table if your family
takes
you out to dinner. Should people NEVER treat you special, no matter where
or
who you are?>>
People should want to treat me special because of who I am as a person, not
because I'm a mom or the bride at a wedding.
Mary B
<<I just don't see where I think it's appropriate to treat anyone more
mannerly or with more respect just on the fact of who they are >>
<<This is bizarre to me, honestly.
Who they are DOES determine how you feel about them, and how you will
ultimately treat them. You might say "hello" the same way, but which one
can stay at
your house for an hour? Which overnight? For a week?>>
Not really who they are but how they are. How they act, if they are nice and
respectful and I enjoy them. And who they are has nothing to do with how
long they can stay here. It goes back to how they act. My MIL wouldn't "out
rank" a friend I've only know for a few months just because she is my MIL.
<<That's way too simplistic. You've never met anyone and been introduced
and
known how much money he made and nothing else about him. And what they do
for
a living has NO bearing to you on how you will treat them? Pickpockets,
senators, nuns, hookers, all the same in your mind?>>
If the first was a question, then yes I have met people who I know are
wealthy and nothing else about them. Makes no difference to my in how I feel
about them when I meet them. And what they do for a living doesn't have a
bearing on how I treat them.
I've never met a pickpocket so I can't say. I have met politicians and nuns
and hookers. I have spoken to them and treated them all the same when we
met. Of course after spending some time with them, I might change my
behavior as in relaxing a bit more or changing my language, but I would get
that cue from them personally, not having anything to do with what they do
or did for a living. There are hookers I wouldn't feel comfortable swearing
around and politicians I would.
<<On Mother's Day you're a mom and you outrank ote table if your family
takes
you out to dinner. Should people NEVER treat you special, no matter where
or
who you are?>>
People should want to treat me special because of who I am as a person, not
because I'm a mom or the bride at a wedding.
Mary B
Have A Nice Day!
Kids will create their
own heirarchy within every third grade classroom on earth BECAUSE human
interaction inherently involves rank.
<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I'm not sure thats "inherent", but even if it is, does that mean its good? Maybe the real question is not whether rank exists, but what do we base it on?
Kristen
own heirarchy within every third grade classroom on earth BECAUSE human
interaction inherently involves rank.
<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I'm not sure thats "inherent", but even if it is, does that mean its good? Maybe the real question is not whether rank exists, but what do we base it on?
Kristen
----- Original Message -----
From: Have A Nice Day!
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, June 16, 2003 4:46 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Manners, rank
I don't know Sandra,
Rank has never been a big issue to me personally, at least I don't think it is. I know it exists but I try not to let it affect my life too much.
I can't think of anyone I treat differently because of "rank". Well, except my husband's boss and his wife and my Martial Arts instructor during class time.
I guess the whole "rank" issue was a source of toxic relationships in my life, so I've done the best I can to eliminate it because of the power struggles that seem to go with it.
The exceptions are when I *choose* to partake of it (like the Martial Arts class or the SCA (hopefully getting involved in that at some point). But in mainstream day to day life, I really don't personally run into it that much, or maybe I just don't recognize it.
Kristen
----- Original Message -----
From: SandraDodd@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, June 16, 2003 4:31 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Manners, rank
<< I think Mary agrees that rank exists. The argument is about whether its
right. >>
How can that happen though?
How can there be ANY group of mammals, let alone humans with language,
traditions, religion, and all that, in which there is no heirarchy?
People operate within heirarchies bigtime.
That's why mixed age groups of kids help the little ones learn much better
than same-age school classes of all the same-age kids. Kids will create their
own heirarchy within every third grade classroom on earth BECAUSE human
interaction inherently involves rank.
Sandra
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Have A Nice Day!
And what they do
for
a living has NO bearing to you on how you will treat them? Pickpockets,
senators, nuns, hookers, all the same in your mind?>>
<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>
It has absolutely no bearing on how I treat people. They are all people, with human dignity. We all start somewhere and people can and do change.
Kristen
for
a living has NO bearing to you on how you will treat them? Pickpockets,
senators, nuns, hookers, all the same in your mind?>>
<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>
It has absolutely no bearing on how I treat people. They are all people, with human dignity. We all start somewhere and people can and do change.
Kristen
----- Original Message -----
From: Mary
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, June 16, 2003 5:16 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Manners, rank
From: <SandraDodd@...>
<<I just don't see where I think it's appropriate to treat anyone more
mannerly or with more respect just on the fact of who they are >>
<<This is bizarre to me, honestly.
Who they are DOES determine how you feel about them, and how you will
ultimately treat them. You might say "hello" the same way, but which one
can stay at
your house for an hour? Which overnight? For a week?>>
Not really who they are but how they are. How they act, if they are nice and
respectful and I enjoy them. And who they are has nothing to do with how
long they can stay here. It goes back to how they act. My MIL wouldn't "out
rank" a friend I've only know for a few months just because she is my MIL.
<<That's way too simplistic. You've never met anyone and been introduced
and
known how much money he made and nothing else about him. And what they do
for
a living has NO bearing to you on how you will treat them? Pickpockets,
senators, nuns, hookers, all the same in your mind?>>
If the first was a question, then yes I have met people who I know are
wealthy and nothing else about them. Makes no difference to my in how I feel
about them when I meet them. And what they do for a living doesn't have a
bearing on how I treat them.
I've never met a pickpocket so I can't say. I have met politicians and nuns
and hookers. I have spoken to them and treated them all the same when we
met. Of course after spending some time with them, I might change my
behavior as in relaxing a bit more or changing my language, but I would get
that cue from them personally, not having anything to do with what they do
or did for a living. There are hookers I wouldn't feel comfortable swearing
around and politicians I would.
<<On Mother's Day you're a mom and you outrank ote table if your family
takes
you out to dinner. Should people NEVER treat you special, no matter where
or
who you are?>>
People should want to treat me special because of who I am as a person, not
because I'm a mom or the bride at a wedding.
Mary B
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list owner, Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address an email to:
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Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Mary
From: <SandraDodd@...>
<<Kill a bunch of hookers or druggies and the police just don't work as hard
on it from what I see. And I'm being general here.>>
<<So your point is making my point.
People Do have differing and relative social value.
There IS rank.>>
Of course there is rank. I'm saying it doesn't mean much to me and that it
shouldn't based on what someone does or doesn't do and how wealthy they are.
<<The big news here has been meth labs. A house two houses from us, behind
the
house straight across the cul-de-sac from us, was cleaned out to bare frame
in some places when they busted a meth lab there. Had I gone nuts that day
and
gone over and shot someone, should it matter whether I shot one of the meth
dealers or a fireman or cop? >>
Not to me, you still killed someone. Took someone's life. Someone's kid.
<<You would probably be more angry if a senator went in and killed a Burger
King employee than if a drug dealer did. Why?>>
Actually it wouldn't. Why would it??
Mary B
<<Kill a bunch of hookers or druggies and the police just don't work as hard
on it from what I see. And I'm being general here.>>
<<So your point is making my point.
People Do have differing and relative social value.
There IS rank.>>
Of course there is rank. I'm saying it doesn't mean much to me and that it
shouldn't based on what someone does or doesn't do and how wealthy they are.
<<The big news here has been meth labs. A house two houses from us, behind
the
house straight across the cul-de-sac from us, was cleaned out to bare frame
in some places when they busted a meth lab there. Had I gone nuts that day
and
gone over and shot someone, should it matter whether I shot one of the meth
dealers or a fireman or cop? >>
Not to me, you still killed someone. Took someone's life. Someone's kid.
<<You would probably be more angry if a senator went in and killed a Burger
King employee than if a drug dealer did. Why?>>
Actually it wouldn't. Why would it??
Mary B
Have A Nice Day!
People should want to treat me special because of who I am as a person, not
because I'm a mom or the bride at a wedding.
<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>
Well said. In fact, my daughter didn't make me breakfast in bed on Mother's Day. It was a totally different day altogether. But she was treating me special because I was mom, and I was taking them out for the day and they appreciated it.
That means far more than doing it because it happens to be Mother's Day.
Kristen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
because I'm a mom or the bride at a wedding.
<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>
Well said. In fact, my daughter didn't make me breakfast in bed on Mother's Day. It was a totally different day altogether. But she was treating me special because I was mom, and I was taking them out for the day and they appreciated it.
That means far more than doing it because it happens to be Mother's Day.
Kristen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Mary
From: <RJHill241@...>
<<The initial part of the thread was about manners, then rank became a part
of
the topic, where introductions are supposed to be done based on ones rank. I
however, agree with you in that rank SHOULD have no factor where kindness is
the treatment we are looking for especially for introductions. Problem is,
we
aren't all looking for the same thing. Which is also OK. I do, however,
fully
comprehend and understand the protocol, I just choose not to buy into it.
When I
attended school, "charm" was a required class in the eighth grade in order
to
graduate. Maybe that's where my disdain stems from.>>
From what I can see then I guess I'm with you. I do understand and get it. I
do know it exists. I just don't like it and don't live that way for myself
and have no problem with my kids doing the same if they chose to.
Mary B
<<The initial part of the thread was about manners, then rank became a part
of
the topic, where introductions are supposed to be done based on ones rank. I
however, agree with you in that rank SHOULD have no factor where kindness is
the treatment we are looking for especially for introductions. Problem is,
we
aren't all looking for the same thing. Which is also OK. I do, however,
fully
comprehend and understand the protocol, I just choose not to buy into it.
When I
attended school, "charm" was a required class in the eighth grade in order
to
graduate. Maybe that's where my disdain stems from.>>
From what I can see then I guess I'm with you. I do understand and get it. I
do know it exists. I just don't like it and don't live that way for myself
and have no problem with my kids doing the same if they chose to.
Mary B
Mary
From: <rainelovesj@...>
<<I have a question along these lines...
How do you all handle Thank You cards?
I remember my dad always forcing us to write them, and we thought it was
silly. Now as an adult, I can see how thoughtless it is for someone (say a
bride) to overlook any money and time spent in chosing a gift by not
responding with a card. In cases of gifts sent long-distance, a card let's
the sender know that the gift was received. How do we teach our kids to show
appreciation for gifts without forcing Thank You cards?>>
I send thank you's for gifts. Always have. My mom always did and I guess I
got it from her. But not for everything. If its' my birthday or my
children's birthday and someone comes with a gift (same with Christmas) I
will verballythank them for the gift and for spending time with us. If it
seems over the top with what they did as far as the gift, I will also send a
note later. If it's a wedding, anniversary graduation thing that doesn't
happen every year, I will send a thank you. If anyone sends anything that
wasn't there to present it, I send a thank you. I've followed this way of
doing it with my kids too. So they see me do it. When they got older I would
let them know what I was doing on behalf of them. Sometimes even asking if
they wanted to sign it. When Tara got older I would get the card and ask her
if she wanted to write something in it or just sign it. Now she sends her
own when the circumstances come up. I guess again by modeling.
Mary B
<<I have a question along these lines...
How do you all handle Thank You cards?
I remember my dad always forcing us to write them, and we thought it was
silly. Now as an adult, I can see how thoughtless it is for someone (say a
bride) to overlook any money and time spent in chosing a gift by not
responding with a card. In cases of gifts sent long-distance, a card let's
the sender know that the gift was received. How do we teach our kids to show
appreciation for gifts without forcing Thank You cards?>>
I send thank you's for gifts. Always have. My mom always did and I guess I
got it from her. But not for everything. If its' my birthday or my
children's birthday and someone comes with a gift (same with Christmas) I
will verballythank them for the gift and for spending time with us. If it
seems over the top with what they did as far as the gift, I will also send a
note later. If it's a wedding, anniversary graduation thing that doesn't
happen every year, I will send a thank you. If anyone sends anything that
wasn't there to present it, I send a thank you. I've followed this way of
doing it with my kids too. So they see me do it. When they got older I would
let them know what I was doing on behalf of them. Sometimes even asking if
they wanted to sign it. When Tara got older I would get the card and ask her
if she wanted to write something in it or just sign it. Now she sends her
own when the circumstances come up. I guess again by modeling.
Mary B