manners
[email protected]
"Sit back down please, and excuse yourself."
I know this wasn't the point of the post in which the question was raised
about rude kids....but I couldn't help but notice this statement.
I can't STAND it when kids are expected to ASK to get up from the table.
I think it is very hypocritical.
First of all, do the adults have to ask the kids to be excused? Would you
make your friends come back in and ask? Just which guests in your home have to
ask to be excused? And would the answer ever be no?
Just some thoughts to ponder. I don't think that the rude little neighbor
friend will benefit from this type of treatment.
He does need some strong reminders of how to act in your home. But I fail to
see how this one will help.
Ren
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I know this wasn't the point of the post in which the question was raised
about rude kids....but I couldn't help but notice this statement.
I can't STAND it when kids are expected to ASK to get up from the table.
I think it is very hypocritical.
First of all, do the adults have to ask the kids to be excused? Would you
make your friends come back in and ask? Just which guests in your home have to
ask to be excused? And would the answer ever be no?
Just some thoughts to ponder. I don't think that the rude little neighbor
friend will benefit from this type of treatment.
He does need some strong reminders of how to act in your home. But I fail to
see how this one will help.
Ren
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Mary
From: <starsuncloud@...>
<<I know this wasn't the point of the post in which the question was raised
about rude kids....but I couldn't help but notice this statement.
I can't STAND it when kids are expected to ASK to get up from the table.>>
When I think of children having to ask to be excused I have a picture of a
very religious farming family. Those that have children that sit very
quietly at the table and say nothing unless they are spoken to. If anything
is said at all it comes from the father. A very submissive picture, like
the kids and wife get beat. Sorry, but I guess I picked that up from TV
somewhere as I never knew anyone who had to ask to leave the table.
My kids say, I'm done and I say okay and off they go. Once in awhile if it's
a sit down dinner for an occasion, (seems like that's the only time we have
them anymore) I'll ask whoever is ready to leave first (that would be
Joseph) to hang out with us for a few minutes. I find Alyssa doesn't eat
like she wants to if the other kids run off. When she's done, then Joseph
and her can both go. Sierra will only leave when she's had enough. That
could usually be quite awhile!!!!
Mary B
<<I know this wasn't the point of the post in which the question was raised
about rude kids....but I couldn't help but notice this statement.
I can't STAND it when kids are expected to ASK to get up from the table.>>
When I think of children having to ask to be excused I have a picture of a
very religious farming family. Those that have children that sit very
quietly at the table and say nothing unless they are spoken to. If anything
is said at all it comes from the father. A very submissive picture, like
the kids and wife get beat. Sorry, but I guess I picked that up from TV
somewhere as I never knew anyone who had to ask to leave the table.
My kids say, I'm done and I say okay and off they go. Once in awhile if it's
a sit down dinner for an occasion, (seems like that's the only time we have
them anymore) I'll ask whoever is ready to leave first (that would be
Joseph) to hang out with us for a few minutes. I find Alyssa doesn't eat
like she wants to if the other kids run off. When she's done, then Joseph
and her can both go. Sierra will only leave when she's had enough. That
could usually be quite awhile!!!!
Mary B
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/7/2003 4:49:46 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
starsuncloud@... writes:
adults if I can help it. And people don't "excuse themselves," but as Ren
stated, they ask to be excused. "Excuse me" is short for "will you excuse me?" The
fact that most people don't respond any more, it's leftover from more formal
times when rank and hostess' position had obligations which are fading.
I did ask a guest kid not to chew with his mouth open the other day. Chips,
while watching Marty play video games. Crunch, smack, crunch. I was in there
folding laundry and I'm as unused to smacking as I am to people lighting up
cigarettes in my house (that hasn't happened for twenty years), and I finally
asked him please to chew with his mouth closed because the noise really bothered
me.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
starsuncloud@... writes:
> Just which guests in your home have toI agree with that. I don't like treating kids differently than I treat
> ask to be excused? And would the answer ever be no?
>
adults if I can help it. And people don't "excuse themselves," but as Ren
stated, they ask to be excused. "Excuse me" is short for "will you excuse me?" The
fact that most people don't respond any more, it's leftover from more formal
times when rank and hostess' position had obligations which are fading.
I did ask a guest kid not to chew with his mouth open the other day. Chips,
while watching Marty play video games. Crunch, smack, crunch. I was in there
folding laundry and I'm as unused to smacking as I am to people lighting up
cigarettes in my house (that hasn't happened for twenty years), and I finally
asked him please to chew with his mouth closed because the noise really bothered
me.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Heidi
Hopefully by now, my replies to this have been read, in the "friends
over" thread. I, also, recognized the Knee-Jerkiness of what I did,
and it came from an un-thinking reaction to a kid doing something
rude, that I'd not experienced before. Which I thought I'd gotten
across to the list, but obviously did not.
One reason why this is done has been mentioned (not a "submit to
father, children mustn't speak at table", as Mary said she pictured):
acknowledging the host and hostess. This is not a bad thing to do:
nothing wrong with graciousness. Another reason why a kid might ask
to be excused, could have to do with the conversation at the table.
Maybe something is being discussed that involves the whole family,
and so the whole family needs to be there. Maybe there are things
that need doing before kids scatter. And so, a kid finds out if he is
going to be needed at the table to contribute to the conversation.
Nothing wrong w/that, either.
If an adult friend came over and ate dinner, and left without saying
thank you, it might be awhile before he or she was invited over
again. But hopefully, in growing up, adults have encountered and
learned, how to be mannerly.
And, I am coming at this from a different point of view than most
people in this list, in that I believe there is a hierarchy in life.
There is an authority structure: parents have authority over their
kids. So, no...mom and dad wouldn't ask kids permission to leave,
because kids don't have authority over their mom and dad.
HeidiC
over" thread. I, also, recognized the Knee-Jerkiness of what I did,
and it came from an un-thinking reaction to a kid doing something
rude, that I'd not experienced before. Which I thought I'd gotten
across to the list, but obviously did not.
One reason why this is done has been mentioned (not a "submit to
father, children mustn't speak at table", as Mary said she pictured):
acknowledging the host and hostess. This is not a bad thing to do:
nothing wrong with graciousness. Another reason why a kid might ask
to be excused, could have to do with the conversation at the table.
Maybe something is being discussed that involves the whole family,
and so the whole family needs to be there. Maybe there are things
that need doing before kids scatter. And so, a kid finds out if he is
going to be needed at the table to contribute to the conversation.
Nothing wrong w/that, either.
If an adult friend came over and ate dinner, and left without saying
thank you, it might be awhile before he or she was invited over
again. But hopefully, in growing up, adults have encountered and
learned, how to be mannerly.
And, I am coming at this from a different point of view than most
people in this list, in that I believe there is a hierarchy in life.
There is an authority structure: parents have authority over their
kids. So, no...mom and dad wouldn't ask kids permission to leave,
because kids don't have authority over their mom and dad.
HeidiC
--- In [email protected], starsuncloud@c... wrote:
>
> "Sit back down please, and excuse yourself."
>
> I know this wasn't the point of the post in which the question was
raised
> about rude kids....but I couldn't help but notice this statement.
> I can't STAND it when kids are expected to ASK to get up from the
table.
> I think it is very hypocritical.
> First of all, do the adults have to ask the kids to be excused?
Would you
> make your friends come back in and ask? Just which guests in your
home have to
> ask to be excused? And would the answer ever be no?
>
> Just some thoughts to ponder. I don't think that the rude little
neighbor
> friend will benefit from this type of treatment.
>
> He does need some strong reminders of how to act in your home. But
I fail to
> see how this one will help.
>
> Ren
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/8/03 9:40:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
bunsofaluminum60@... writes:
will look at me and say "it is my choice Mom." Then I take a step back and take
another look at the situation and try to see where he is coming from and we
talk some more. Usually he is right it is "his" choice.
Pam G.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
bunsofaluminum60@... writes:
> There is an authority structure: parents have authority over theirWhenever I say something that sounds a little too bossy to my youngest he
> kids. So, no...mom and dad wouldn't ask kids permission to leave,
> because kids don't have authority over their mom and dad.
>
>
will look at me and say "it is my choice Mom." Then I take a step back and take
another look at the situation and try to see where he is coming from and we
talk some more. Usually he is right it is "his" choice.
Pam G.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Julie Bogart
--- In [email protected],
the circles I was a part of (church, bible studies etc.) And
therefore I saw authority as a big responsiblity to enforce or
teach or train or establish boundaries etc.
But that's changed for me now and ironically, I feel like the kind of
authority-style I now live is much more like Jesus than it was
under that supposed Christian model.
I've gotten to a point where I see my authority as an opportunity to
honor and serve my kids. I see it as my responsiblity as the
authority to create the loving environment that makes living with
me a joy insofar as I'm able.
Principles for living together come from my interest in serving
and helping and supporting and respecting. Insofar as I'm able, I
want to live in such a way with my children that I embody the
things I hope they will internalize.
So just to take the dinner one as the example: we don't worry
about kids being excused because being at the dinner table is
really a fun place to be. and if anyone is tired of the banter after
dinner, he or she will often say (parents included) are we done?
I'd like to get on to X now if everyone doesn't mind.
This is what I say--this is what a child will say. The conclusion of
dinner is when everyone is sated both with food and each other.
Appreciation for a good meal is expressed when the meal turns
out good! And then I sure appreciate the thanks because I know
it comes from my having succeeded in bringing my family a great
meal.
Julie B
> In a message dated 6/8/03 9:40:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time,their
> bunsofaluminum60@h... writes:
>
> > There is an authority structure: parents have authority over
> > kids. So, no...mom and dad wouldn't ask kids permission toleave,
> > because kids don't have authority over their mom and dad.I think I see where you're coming from. I was taught similarly in
the circles I was a part of (church, bible studies etc.) And
therefore I saw authority as a big responsiblity to enforce or
teach or train or establish boundaries etc.
But that's changed for me now and ironically, I feel like the kind of
authority-style I now live is much more like Jesus than it was
under that supposed Christian model.
I've gotten to a point where I see my authority as an opportunity to
honor and serve my kids. I see it as my responsiblity as the
authority to create the loving environment that makes living with
me a joy insofar as I'm able.
Principles for living together come from my interest in serving
and helping and supporting and respecting. Insofar as I'm able, I
want to live in such a way with my children that I embody the
things I hope they will internalize.
So just to take the dinner one as the example: we don't worry
about kids being excused because being at the dinner table is
really a fun place to be. and if anyone is tired of the banter after
dinner, he or she will often say (parents included) are we done?
I'd like to get on to X now if everyone doesn't mind.
This is what I say--this is what a child will say. The conclusion of
dinner is when everyone is sated both with food and each other.
Appreciation for a good meal is expressed when the meal turns
out good! And then I sure appreciate the thanks because I know
it comes from my having succeeded in bringing my family a great
meal.
Julie B
Alan & Brenda Leonard
6/8/03 01:12:
it's just polite. As in, "Excuse me, I need to go the the bathroom" or
"Excuse me. I'm done." It's just how my husband and I generally behave, so
it's fairly natural. I pointed it out to Tim at one point, and he generally
says something, too.
I don't harass guests about it, though.
brenda
> First of all, do the adults have to ask the kids to be excused? Would youWe excuse ourselves from the table. It's not about permission, in my mind,
> make your friends come back in and ask? Just which guests in your home have to
> ask to be excused? And would the answer ever be no?
it's just polite. As in, "Excuse me, I need to go the the bathroom" or
"Excuse me. I'm done." It's just how my husband and I generally behave, so
it's fairly natural. I pointed it out to Tim at one point, and he generally
says something, too.
I don't harass guests about it, though.
brenda
jmcseals SEALS
<<And, I am coming at this from a different point of view than most
people in this list, in that I believe there is a hierarchy in life.
There is an authority structure: parents have authority over their
kids. So, no...mom and dad wouldn't ask kids permission to leave,
because kids don't have authority over their mom and dad. >>
I, too, believe there is a hierarchy in life. *However* it is one of
experience not authority. Didn't you say you live by the 'golden rule' in
your house? What you have written above doesn't, in my eyes, fit into that.
When you begin to view people as people, without rank or authority, you
open the world to new and better ways of thinking.
By experience, we, as adults, are responsible for mainting the safety of our
children. By example, we guide them in being respectful and caring people.
Not by demand or some arbitrary authority.
I ask you to consider what your goal is in making a child acknowledge and
thank a hostess for a meal but not needing an adult to do so. Personally, I
would be more shocked if an adult chose not to do so, rather than an
inexperienced child.
I am in no way accusing you of this, but it sure sounds like parents who
think it is within their 'right' to spank a child but wouldn't allow the
child to hit them back! Neither make sense to me.
Jennifer
_________________________________________________________________
MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*.
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
people in this list, in that I believe there is a hierarchy in life.
There is an authority structure: parents have authority over their
kids. So, no...mom and dad wouldn't ask kids permission to leave,
because kids don't have authority over their mom and dad. >>
I, too, believe there is a hierarchy in life. *However* it is one of
experience not authority. Didn't you say you live by the 'golden rule' in
your house? What you have written above doesn't, in my eyes, fit into that.
When you begin to view people as people, without rank or authority, you
open the world to new and better ways of thinking.
By experience, we, as adults, are responsible for mainting the safety of our
children. By example, we guide them in being respectful and caring people.
Not by demand or some arbitrary authority.
I ask you to consider what your goal is in making a child acknowledge and
thank a hostess for a meal but not needing an adult to do so. Personally, I
would be more shocked if an adult chose not to do so, rather than an
inexperienced child.
I am in no way accusing you of this, but it sure sounds like parents who
think it is within their 'right' to spank a child but wouldn't allow the
child to hit them back! Neither make sense to me.
Jennifer
_________________________________________________________________
MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*.
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
One person:
<<There is an authority structure: parents have authority over
their kids. So, no...mom and dad wouldn't ask kids permission to
leave, because kids don't have authority over their mom and dad. >>
Another person:
<<I think I see where you're coming from. I was taught similarly in
the circles I was a part of (church, bible studies etc.) And
therefore I saw authority as a big responsiblity to enforce or
teach or train or establish boundaries etc.
<<But that's changed for me now and ironically, I feel like the kind of
authority-style I now live is much more like Jesus than it was
under that supposed Christian model.>>
When I read that I thought of the disciples asking Jesus to be excused. Why
would they want to leave the table if Jesus were still there? They were
hanging around him because they wanted to learn everything they could from being
with him. "Can I go now?" probably wasn't a big part of it.
<<So just to take the dinner one as the example: we don't worry
about kids being excused because being at the dinner table is
really a fun place to be. and if anyone is tired of the banter after
dinner, he or she will often say (parents included) are we done?
I'd like to get on to X now if everyone doesn't mind.>>
Exactly like that!
If it's NOT fun, then people SHOULD go do something else, because one person
wishing he were elsewhere throws a damper on the remaining people's enjoyment.
Maybe in part there are different mom-styles. I don't see mealtimes as
visual moments. It wouldn't disturb my sense of order to have an empty chair.
What would disturb me much more would be unhappiness either at or away from the
table. I keep a running inventory of who's happy, and if they're all happy, I
don't care whether I can see them at that moment or not.
Sandra
<<There is an authority structure: parents have authority over
their kids. So, no...mom and dad wouldn't ask kids permission to
leave, because kids don't have authority over their mom and dad. >>
Another person:
<<I think I see where you're coming from. I was taught similarly in
the circles I was a part of (church, bible studies etc.) And
therefore I saw authority as a big responsiblity to enforce or
teach or train or establish boundaries etc.
<<But that's changed for me now and ironically, I feel like the kind of
authority-style I now live is much more like Jesus than it was
under that supposed Christian model.>>
When I read that I thought of the disciples asking Jesus to be excused. Why
would they want to leave the table if Jesus were still there? They were
hanging around him because they wanted to learn everything they could from being
with him. "Can I go now?" probably wasn't a big part of it.
<<So just to take the dinner one as the example: we don't worry
about kids being excused because being at the dinner table is
really a fun place to be. and if anyone is tired of the banter after
dinner, he or she will often say (parents included) are we done?
I'd like to get on to X now if everyone doesn't mind.>>
Exactly like that!
If it's NOT fun, then people SHOULD go do something else, because one person
wishing he were elsewhere throws a damper on the remaining people's enjoyment.
Maybe in part there are different mom-styles. I don't see mealtimes as
visual moments. It wouldn't disturb my sense of order to have an empty chair.
What would disturb me much more would be unhappiness either at or away from the
table. I keep a running inventory of who's happy, and if they're all happy, I
don't care whether I can see them at that moment or not.
Sandra
Betsy
**Hopefully by now, my replies to this have been read, in the "friends
over" thread. I, also, recognized the Knee-Jerkiness of what I did,
and it came from an un-thinking reaction to a kid doing something
rude, that I'd not experienced before. Which I thought I'd gotten
across to the list, but obviously did not.**
Hi, Heidi --
I think replies and replies-to-replies will still be dribbling in for
awhile. Just because of the time delays when people get behind on a big
list. It's not because people think you need a few extra swats (honest)
it's because people still want to offer their two cents worth.
(Happens, even when you are drowning in pennies. <g>)
Betsy
PS
**And, I am coming at this from a different point of view than most
people in this list, in that I believe there is a hierarchy in life.
There is an authority structure: parents have authority over their
kids. So, no...mom and dad wouldn't ask kids permission to leave,
because kids don't have authority over their mom and dad. **
OOPS! I just got to this part of your post. Now I would predict that
discussion about "authority" won't die down for at least a week.
"Obedience" is a word that always makes me want to spit, or at least
grimmace, and "authority" is close behind it on the list of words and
ideas that I don't like. I think you hit a hot button here, and there
WILL be heat.
over" thread. I, also, recognized the Knee-Jerkiness of what I did,
and it came from an un-thinking reaction to a kid doing something
rude, that I'd not experienced before. Which I thought I'd gotten
across to the list, but obviously did not.**
Hi, Heidi --
I think replies and replies-to-replies will still be dribbling in for
awhile. Just because of the time delays when people get behind on a big
list. It's not because people think you need a few extra swats (honest)
it's because people still want to offer their two cents worth.
(Happens, even when you are drowning in pennies. <g>)
Betsy
PS
**And, I am coming at this from a different point of view than most
people in this list, in that I believe there is a hierarchy in life.
There is an authority structure: parents have authority over their
kids. So, no...mom and dad wouldn't ask kids permission to leave,
because kids don't have authority over their mom and dad. **
OOPS! I just got to this part of your post. Now I would predict that
discussion about "authority" won't die down for at least a week.
"Obedience" is a word that always makes me want to spit, or at least
grimmace, and "authority" is close behind it on the list of words and
ideas that I don't like. I think you hit a hot button here, and there
WILL be heat.
Heidi
--- In [email protected], genant2@a... wrote:
run, with the idea that we'd butcher for the freezer, any cockerels,
and keep the pullets for eggs. And we thought it would make a good 4-
H project for our 10 yr. old. But two weeks ago, when I asked if he'd
weighed the chickens and put it in the record book "for your chicken
4-H project" he said "I never wanted that for a project, mom."
*gulp*
So, we're still going to cull the cockerels from the flock, but it is
no longer a 4-H project! L because it wasn't his to begin with, it
was my bright idea.
And I am willing to bow out of many things for the sake of my kids'
choosing their own selves. But there are some things that a parent
sticks to her guns. For instance, I get the choice of whether they
brush their teeth or not, since I have to pay the dentist bill.
Things like that, where the impact of their choices would be pretty
heavy on my shoulders, or on others' shoulders (public safety comes
in here).
HeidiC
> In a message dated 6/8/03 9:40:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time,their
> bunsofaluminum60@h... writes:
>
> > There is an authority structure: parents have authority over
> > kids. So, no...mom and dad wouldn't ask kids permission to leave,youngest he
> > because kids don't have authority over their mom and dad.
> >
> >
>
> Whenever I say something that sounds a little too bossy to my
> will look at me and say "it is my choice Mom." Then I take a stepback and take
> another look at the situation and try to see where he is comingfrom and we
> talk some more. Usually he is right it is "his" choice.Right. This happened w/4-H this year. We got a box of chicks, hatch
> Pam G.
>
run, with the idea that we'd butcher for the freezer, any cockerels,
and keep the pullets for eggs. And we thought it would make a good 4-
H project for our 10 yr. old. But two weeks ago, when I asked if he'd
weighed the chickens and put it in the record book "for your chicken
4-H project" he said "I never wanted that for a project, mom."
*gulp*
So, we're still going to cull the cockerels from the flock, but it is
no longer a 4-H project! L because it wasn't his to begin with, it
was my bright idea.
And I am willing to bow out of many things for the sake of my kids'
choosing their own selves. But there are some things that a parent
sticks to her guns. For instance, I get the choice of whether they
brush their teeth or not, since I have to pay the dentist bill.
Things like that, where the impact of their choices would be pretty
heavy on my shoulders, or on others' shoulders (public safety comes
in here).
HeidiC
Heidi
--- In [email protected], "Julie Bogart"
<julie@b...> wrote:
This is very helpful. Thank you. I'm surprised there has been as much
vehemence about a kid saying "excuse me please" as there has. It just
seems the polite thing, you know?
HeidiC still learning, and that's why I'm HERE!!!
<julie@b...> wrote:
> --- In [email protected],of
> > In a message dated 6/8/03 9:40:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> > bunsofaluminum60@h... writes:
> >
> > > There is an authority structure: parents have authority over
> their
> > > kids. So, no...mom and dad wouldn't ask kids permission to
> leave,
> > > because kids don't have authority over their mom and dad.
>
> I think I see where you're coming from. I was taught similarly in
> the circles I was a part of (church, bible studies etc.) And
> therefore I saw authority as a big responsiblity to enforce or
> teach or train or establish boundaries etc.
>
> But that's changed for me now and ironically, I feel like the kind
> authority-style I now live is much more like Jesus than it wasto
> under that supposed Christian model.
>
> I've gotten to a point where I see my authority as an opportunity
> honor and serve my kids. I see it as my responsiblity as theafter
> authority to create the loving environment that makes living with
> me a joy insofar as I'm able.
>
> Principles for living together come from my interest in serving
> and helping and supporting and respecting. Insofar as I'm able, I
> want to live in such a way with my children that I embody the
> things I hope they will internalize.
>
> So just to take the dinner one as the example: we don't worry
> about kids being excused because being at the dinner table is
> really a fun place to be. and if anyone is tired of the banter
> dinner, he or she will often say (parents included) are we done?of
> I'd like to get on to X now if everyone doesn't mind.
>
> This is what I say--this is what a child will say. The conclusion
> dinner is when everyone is sated both with food and each other.Julie!
> Appreciation for a good meal is expressed when the meal turns
> out good! And then I sure appreciate the thanks because I know
> it comes from my having succeeded in bringing my family a great
> meal.
>
> Julie B
This is very helpful. Thank you. I'm surprised there has been as much
vehemence about a kid saying "excuse me please" as there has. It just
seems the polite thing, you know?
HeidiC still learning, and that's why I'm HERE!!!
Heidi
I feel like the kind of
box? whew. *Please avert your eyes. I'm changing paradigms*
LOL
Thanks a lot, unschooling-dotcom. You're making me consider carefully
the things we do around here. sheesh.
;) and it's GOOD.
HeidiC
>excused. Why
> authority-style I now live is much more like Jesus than it was
>
> under that supposed Christian model.>>
>
> When I read that I thought of the disciples asking Jesus to be
> would they want to leave the table if Jesus were still there? Theywere
> hanging around him because they wanted to learn everything theycould from being
> with him. "Can I go now?" probably wasn't a big part of it.Excellent!!! See why I come here? The growth is amazing. Outside the
box? whew. *Please avert your eyes. I'm changing paradigms*
LOL
Thanks a lot, unschooling-dotcom. You're making me consider carefully
the things we do around here. sheesh.
;) and it's GOOD.
HeidiC
Lee-Ann and Robert Storer
HeidiC,
I'm jumping in right here even though I think there is more to come of this thread (why do I get so behind with my messages?).
This thread is a joy to read. You are being so thought full (as in full of thinking LOL) and I just really really really appreciate seeing someone ask questions and then stick around and think about the answers and ask more and all the good stuff that I just knew would happen on this list.
I guess I'm still shell shocked from some of the 'trainwreck' threads that have happened not so long ago and felt the urge to acknowledge your steadfastness and also the hoooooge amount of wisdom coming from the list (as it always does.)
that's all,
Lee-Ann in Harrow, Victoria, Australia, The World
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I'm jumping in right here even though I think there is more to come of this thread (why do I get so behind with my messages?).
This thread is a joy to read. You are being so thought full (as in full of thinking LOL) and I just really really really appreciate seeing someone ask questions and then stick around and think about the answers and ask more and all the good stuff that I just knew would happen on this list.
I guess I'm still shell shocked from some of the 'trainwreck' threads that have happened not so long ago and felt the urge to acknowledge your steadfastness and also the hoooooge amount of wisdom coming from the list (as it always does.)
that's all,
Lee-Ann in Harrow, Victoria, Australia, The World
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
jmcseals SEALS
<<You [Heidi] are being so thought full (as in full of thinking LOL) and I
just really really really appreciate seeing someone ask questions and then
stick around and think about the answers and ask more and all the good stuff
that I just knew would happen on this list.>>
Hey! I second that! I was just thinking that a few minutes ago and was
going to post on it when I came to the end of my new messages. I'm actually
only 5 away from done! Wahoo!
Jennifer
_________________________________________________________________
The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
just really really really appreciate seeing someone ask questions and then
stick around and think about the answers and ask more and all the good stuff
that I just knew would happen on this list.>>
Hey! I second that! I was just thinking that a few minutes ago and was
going to post on it when I came to the end of my new messages. I'm actually
only 5 away from done! Wahoo!
Jennifer
_________________________________________________________________
The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Heidi
--- In [email protected], "Lee-Ann and Robert
Storer" <lrjem1@d...> wrote:
seeing someone ask questions and then stick around and think about
the answers and ask more and all the good stuff that I just knew
would happen on this list.
acknowledge your steadfastness and also the hoooooge amount of wisdom
coming from the list (as it always does.)
aww...*sniff* *dab*
thank you. I really am trying to learn. Going through a huge paradigm
shift here, and that's scary. Feeling clueless and feeling like I
really messed up my oldest boy (23, "victim" of my cluelessness,
immaturity, harshness, what have you) But this list helps so much.
SO MUCH to think about. SO MUCH inner work to do.
thanks again, Lee-Ann in Australia.
HeidiC
Storer" <lrjem1@d...> wrote:
> HeidiC,of this thread (why do I get so behind with my messages?).
>
> I'm jumping in right here even though I think there is more to come
>full of thinking LOL) and I just really really really appreciate
> This thread is a joy to read. You are being so thought full (as in
seeing someone ask questions and then stick around and think about
the answers and ask more and all the good stuff that I just knew
would happen on this list.
>threads that have happened not so long ago and felt the urge to
> I guess I'm still shell shocked from some of the 'trainwreck'
acknowledge your steadfastness and also the hoooooge amount of wisdom
coming from the list (as it always does.)
>Lee-Ann in Harrow, Victoria, Australia, The World
> that's all,
>
aww...*sniff* *dab*
thank you. I really am trying to learn. Going through a huge paradigm
shift here, and that's scary. Feeling clueless and feeling like I
really messed up my oldest boy (23, "victim" of my cluelessness,
immaturity, harshness, what have you) But this list helps so much.
SO MUCH to think about. SO MUCH inner work to do.
thanks again, Lee-Ann in Australia.
HeidiC
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
on 6/22/03 5:23 AM, RJHill241@... at RJHill241@... wrote:
We need to, at least for the course of a discussion, agree on a common
definition of the words we¹re using. Otherwise no one will know what anyone
else is talking about. And the points won¹t make sense.
And whose definition we go by is determined by rank ;-) As in who has the
most knowledge of the subject.
Rhonda responds:
And who determines who is the authority (ranking individual) of each subject?
Or are there already specified ranking individuals that this list has chosen
in the past to be all-knowing? If so, then could someone please name who's
who, so the non-ranking individuals can be silently identified? In other words,
if you're not on the list of the authorities, then what? You don't post, or you
post only when you openly acknowledge that you remember you are not an
authority? But what if, I mean just what if, someone out there in Unschooling-dotcom
land reads the authority figures stance, and not only disagrees, but is
positive they are in fact far more knowledgable? Or would that fall under, they
aren't on the ranking list, so they shouldn't bother posting said knowledge,
because there may be dissention in the ranks?
Rhonda wrote:
Reprimanding the list for your interpretation of what happened is liable to
stir up disagreement and argument because others will interpret what
happened differently.
Rhonda responds:
Reprimandining anyone on the list for their interpretations and perspectives
seems to be a far greater disservice to the list as a whole, because it says
only certain people are worthy of being heard.
Rhonda wrote:
Is it Gandhi that said ³Be the change you wish to see in the world²?
Rhonda responds:
Whoever said it, had a brilliant mind.
Joyce writes:
Do you think the people here believe that getting personal is a useful
tactic to make a point?
I'm really not sure what anyone here thinks. Apparently, some do and some
don't. I just find it odd that getting personal is okay for some people, but when
others utilize identical tactics, they get slammed. Then again there are
instances when someone gets personal, then claims they never do that or that
wasn't their intent.
Joyce wrote:
Do you think they¹ll realize how juvenile that
tactic is and develop more mature forms of debate because you¹ve pointed it
out from your more mature standpoint?
Rhonda responds:
Apparently, one can only hope.
Joyce writes:
There are generally complex dynamics involved. It¹s especially complex when
two sides are arguing different topics with one or both sides not realizing
they¹re talking about different topics. It¹s not simple and there isn¹t a
simple answer.
Rhonda responds:
I agree.
Rhonda - who is now contemplating perhaps she is THE only one to hope???
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> TheJoyce writes:
> assumption that we all must believe in the same meanings as one another is
> where it all gets hairy.
We need to, at least for the course of a discussion, agree on a common
definition of the words we¹re using. Otherwise no one will know what anyone
else is talking about. And the points won¹t make sense.
And whose definition we go by is determined by rank ;-) As in who has the
most knowledge of the subject.
Rhonda responds:
And who determines who is the authority (ranking individual) of each subject?
Or are there already specified ranking individuals that this list has chosen
in the past to be all-knowing? If so, then could someone please name who's
who, so the non-ranking individuals can be silently identified? In other words,
if you're not on the list of the authorities, then what? You don't post, or you
post only when you openly acknowledge that you remember you are not an
authority? But what if, I mean just what if, someone out there in Unschooling-dotcom
land reads the authority figures stance, and not only disagrees, but is
positive they are in fact far more knowledgable? Or would that fall under, they
aren't on the ranking list, so they shouldn't bother posting said knowledge,
because there may be dissention in the ranks?
Rhonda wrote:
> The saddest thing about the entire thread is thatyour
> learning stopped and the flames were lit. It got lost in: "this is what I
> think...and it's right!!!" as opposed to : "this is how I think, what's
> view???"Joyce writes:
Reprimanding the list for your interpretation of what happened is liable to
stir up disagreement and argument because others will interpret what
happened differently.
Rhonda responds:
Reprimandining anyone on the list for their interpretations and perspectives
seems to be a far greater disservice to the list as a whole, because it says
only certain people are worthy of being heard.
Rhonda wrote:
> rather than how we each view manners andJoyce writes:
> courtesy and respect in the context of the original post, it got personal.
> Whether anyone wants to accept that or not, it did.
Is it Gandhi that said ³Be the change you wish to see in the world²?
Rhonda responds:
Whoever said it, had a brilliant mind.
Joyce writes:
Do you think the people here believe that getting personal is a useful
tactic to make a point?
I'm really not sure what anyone here thinks. Apparently, some do and some
don't. I just find it odd that getting personal is okay for some people, but when
others utilize identical tactics, they get slammed. Then again there are
instances when someone gets personal, then claims they never do that or that
wasn't their intent.
Joyce wrote:
Do you think they¹ll realize how juvenile that
tactic is and develop more mature forms of debate because you¹ve pointed it
out from your more mature standpoint?
Rhonda responds:
Apparently, one can only hope.
Joyce writes:
There are generally complex dynamics involved. It¹s especially complex when
two sides are arguing different topics with one or both sides not realizing
they¹re talking about different topics. It¹s not simple and there isn¹t a
simple answer.
Rhonda responds:
I agree.
Rhonda - who is now contemplating perhaps she is THE only one to hope???
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/22/2003 2:35:15 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
RJHill241@... writes:
=\=You don't post, or you
post only when you openly acknowledge that you remember you are not an
authority?-=-
I don't post when I don't know what I'm talking about.
When I'm not sure I say "I'm not sure" or "I could be wrong" or "I think."
If I'm citing sources, I name them.
Those aren't things pertaining just to this list but to ANY public
communcations. People who are used to communicating in public get used to qualifying
their statements and in being prepared to back up what they say somehow.
-=-But what if, I mean just what if, someone out there in Unschooling-dotcom
land reads the authority figures stance, and not only disagrees, but is
positive they are in fact far more knowledgable?-=-
You show your knowledge by saying sensible things you can back up.
-=-Or would that fall under, they
aren't on the ranking list, so they shouldn't bother posting said knowledge,
because there may be dissention in the ranks?-=-
If it's knowledge, qualified and backed up, why would there be dissent?
It it's just wishful thinking and arguing for the sake of arguing, that's not
about knowledge.
-=- Reprimandining anyone on the list for their interpretations and
perspectives
seems to be a far greater disservice to the list as a whole, because it says
only certain people are worthy of being heard.-=-
It's not about who said what, it's about what was said.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
RJHill241@... writes:
> And whose definition we go by is determined by rank ;-) As in who has theDepends on the subject. It changes.
> most knowledge of the subject.
>
> -=-And who determines who is the authority (ranking individual) of each
> subject?
>
>
=\=You don't post, or you
post only when you openly acknowledge that you remember you are not an
authority?-=-
I don't post when I don't know what I'm talking about.
When I'm not sure I say "I'm not sure" or "I could be wrong" or "I think."
If I'm citing sources, I name them.
Those aren't things pertaining just to this list but to ANY public
communcations. People who are used to communicating in public get used to qualifying
their statements and in being prepared to back up what they say somehow.
-=-But what if, I mean just what if, someone out there in Unschooling-dotcom
land reads the authority figures stance, and not only disagrees, but is
positive they are in fact far more knowledgable?-=-
You show your knowledge by saying sensible things you can back up.
-=-Or would that fall under, they
aren't on the ranking list, so they shouldn't bother posting said knowledge,
because there may be dissention in the ranks?-=-
If it's knowledge, qualified and backed up, why would there be dissent?
It it's just wishful thinking and arguing for the sake of arguing, that's not
about knowledge.
-=- Reprimandining anyone on the list for their interpretations and
perspectives
seems to be a far greater disservice to the list as a whole, because it says
only certain people are worthy of being heard.-=-
It's not about who said what, it's about what was said.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pamela Sorooshian
On Sunday, June 22, 2003, at 01:34 PM, RJHill241@... wrote:
Still - if someone came in here trying to tell people that the
definition of statistic significance was something that I know it is
not - someone who isn't a statistician and has no background in the
field, I have to admit that I hope you all would give my definition
more credence than hers, partly based on my education in the field and
experience in the field, but also based on the fact that I've offered
statistical information and explanations here in the past and I'd hope
that I've built up credibility that way, too.
That's mostly the way people here get recognized, generally, as having
a lot of knowledge of a subject - they post information and ideas and
people, over time, start to take what they say particularly to heart -
having found that their advice and information and ideas were valuable,
accurate, useful, etc., in the past.
I also want to say that we weren't arguing over definitions - but
perhaps we should have been - that would have probably short-circuited
the ridiculous argument about whether or not people have social rank
since I'm pretty sure that people were defining the term, "rank,"
differently from each other. So if we'd discussed definitions, nobody
would have had to be the authority, in this case, but we still would
have at least understood that we weren't using the term the same way.
-pam
> And whose definition we go by is determined by rank ;-) As in who hasRhonda -- see the winky?
> the
> most knowledge of the subject.
>
> Rhonda responds:
>
> And who determines who is the authority (ranking individual) of each
> subject?
Still - if someone came in here trying to tell people that the
definition of statistic significance was something that I know it is
not - someone who isn't a statistician and has no background in the
field, I have to admit that I hope you all would give my definition
more credence than hers, partly based on my education in the field and
experience in the field, but also based on the fact that I've offered
statistical information and explanations here in the past and I'd hope
that I've built up credibility that way, too.
That's mostly the way people here get recognized, generally, as having
a lot of knowledge of a subject - they post information and ideas and
people, over time, start to take what they say particularly to heart -
having found that their advice and information and ideas were valuable,
accurate, useful, etc., in the past.
I also want to say that we weren't arguing over definitions - but
perhaps we should have been - that would have probably short-circuited
the ridiculous argument about whether or not people have social rank
since I'm pretty sure that people were defining the term, "rank,"
differently from each other. So if we'd discussed definitions, nobody
would have had to be the authority, in this case, but we still would
have at least understood that we weren't using the term the same way.
-pam