nellebelle

In January, a neighbor called to ask if I knew anyone who would like a teddy
bear hamster. We had not been looking for a hamster, but my kids talked me
into taking it. (They didn't have to twist my arm too hard. I think he's
pretty cute!)

Although my kids like the hamster, the bottom line is that I do most of the
hamster care. 10yod feeds him almost every day, but rarely gets him out of
the cage, and then usually for just a few minutes. Every once in awhile, I
suggest that we find him a new home with people who are able to spend more
time with him. The kids always insist that they want to keep him. But the
poor thing is ignored most of the time.

What do other folks consider when making decisions about getting/keeping
pets?

I don't want to make ultimatums (ie play with him 30 minutes a day or he
goes!), but we really don't NEED to have this little guy hanging around and
not getting the attention he deserves.

Mary Ellen

jmcseals SEALS

<<What do other folks consider when making decisions about getting/keeping
pets?>>

I guess it all depends on what you consider to be an ultimatum. I don't see
anything wrong with saying that you don't want to be fully responsibile for
the hamster and you are going to need help. Otherwise, in his best
interests, you will have to find him a good home.

Now, having said that! *I* think it is unrealistic for parents to assume
that young children are capable of providing total care for their pets. In
the beginning, they are cute and cuddly and fun to watch and play with.
But, over time, they become like anything else...video games, books,
swingsets....they get old. Asking a young child to make a life-long
commitment to an animal is a lot to ask, imo. Even if that lifetime lasts
only two years! My 12 yr old, who is very responsibile, isn't yet ready to
make that commitment. Or, at least, not without a lot of fuss and heal
dragging.

When we take pets in, I assume that they will be *my* pets and my
responsibility. Then, if the kids help out with their care, all the better
for me! I allow them freedom in pet care, just as I do in their attainment
of knowledge. I can't imagine forcing a textbook anymore than the care for
a live animal!

I don't think it has to be a cut and dry ultimatum. Have you thought of
getting another hamster and some excercise equipment for him? Do they
really need to be let out daily? I don't know! We've never had a hamster.
LOL I know vets recommend getting a playmate (of the canine persuasion) if
their dog is lonely. Wouldn't this also work for your pet? If not, I would
discuss the needs of the hamster with the kids and let them know that you
can't take full responsibility for it. I wouldnt' force them or require
them to take him out everyday but I would let them know that if he isn't
getting what he needs that the loving and responsibile thing to do would be
to find him another home. Then, I'd give it a few weeks and if nothing
changed, I'd ask for their help in finding him a new place to live. Maybe,
faced with the thought of having to lose him, the thought of spending a
little more time with him everyday won't seem such a bad price to pay.

Maybe I'm way off! I'm interested in hearing what others have to say!

Jennifer

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Mary

From: "nellebelle" <nellebelle@...>

<<What do other folks consider when making decisions about getting/keeping
pets?>>


Maybe it's just me, but I think it's unrealistic to expect that kids will
take sole responsibility for a pet. I don't think, no matter how much you
explain it, they understand the work that really goes in to taking care of
it. So with that in mind, I would think a parent, before taking on a pet,
understands that for the most part, when the kids are young, you will be
taking care of the pet. If that's fine then go for it. If you don't want
that responsibility, then don't get one. If you get a pet thinking you won't
be having to take care of it, and find you are and don't want to, I don't
think it's unreasonable to sit and explain exactly what bothers you about
having the pet and what needs to be done to keep the pet in the house. Again
I think it's unrealistic to expect total pet care from the child. If you can
come to an agreement, then great. If not I would think it kinder to find the
pet a better caring home.

I am a pet lover. Always have been. We never had many pets because my mom is
not an animal lover. The few times we were able to get a dog or cat, even
then I would not completely take care of the pet. As much as I wanted it and
loved it, I was a kid and had other things to do.

So now we have 2 dogs, 2 cats, 1 snake, 2 fish tanks with 14 fish and 1 frog
and 3 hermit crabs. Some fish, 1 cat, 1 dog, the snake and the hermit crabs
are supposed to be some of the children's pets.

I feed the dogs most days, always feed the cats, always clean the fish tanks
and crab tanks. I feed the fish, check the water, feed the crabs, bath one
dog, cut all the nails and water the snake. My husband cleans the snake cage
and feeds him. My daughter cleans the litter box. We have the bully taken
elsewhere to bath. We walk both dogs and I let them out all day plus clean
puke and whatever they have chewed for the day. The kids play with the dogs
and cat sometimes. They play with the hermit crabs although not as much as
when we first got them.

I'm really fine with all this as I knew what I would be doing when we got
them all. I'm actually thinking of getting a turtle and maybe a bunny
too..........for the kids. <BG>

Mary B

[email protected]

nellebelle@... writes:

<< I don't want to make ultimatums (ie play with him 30 minutes a day or he
goes!), but we really don't NEED to have this little guy hanging around and
not getting the attention he deserves.

Mary Ellen
>>


That's hard cause he's in a cage, right? I would mention that to them, that
that makes them and you more responsible for his needs.

Alex sometimes acts towards our cats in a way that I deem disrespectful of
the animal, picking Serena up, even tho she hates that, stepping way too close
to one of them laying on the floor, etc.

I just try to give him an idea of how the animal might feel. Point out the
cues the animal is giving that something is bothering them. "I think Serena is
kicking her back legs because she wants you to put her down." He's just
thinking about what he wants, to pick her up. He then figured out that she kicks
her legs every time he picks her up. One time she got him with her back claw,
and he realized that was what she was trying to do all along. He figured out
what I already knew, she hates being picked up! lol

You're noticing the animal wants more attention, and your kids aren't. Point
out your observations to them. They'll probably start paying more attention
to the animal's cues to be fed, watered, played with.

"That cage is getting pretty stinky, I betcha he doesn't like that smell.
Animals have more sensitive noses than humans do, did you know that?"

Or, " The hamster runs around the cage a lot when you come walking by, I
think that's him trying to tell you that he wants to play with you."

My fish makes a big splash when he's hungry, it means we've not fed him that
day, and that he's mad at us. My son noticed this first, actually.

Pets are like babies who can't tell you what they want or need. You have to
pay attention to their behavioral cues. Model that for your kids, they'll
catch on really fast.

~Aimee

jmcseals SEALS

LOL!! I honestly thought I had responded twice to this until I came upon
this part:

<<So now we have 2 dogs, 2 cats, 1 snake, 2 fish tanks with 14 fish and 1
frog
and 3 hermit crabs.>>

Sheesh! That was a lot of reading to not know I hadn't written it! LOL

Jennifer

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Mary

From: "jmcseals SEALS" <jmcseals@...>

<< Sheesh! That was a lot of reading to not know I hadn't written it! LOL>>


Not sure if you were in my head or I was in yours.

Either way kind of creepy huh Jennifer??!!! LOL!!!

Mary B

nellebelle

*I* think it is unrealistic for parents to assume
> that young children are capable of providing total care for their pets.
>>>>>

I agree! I'd like to clarify that it isn't the pet care that is the issue.
I'm willing to clean cages and feed/groom pets, or ask the kids if they'd
like to feed the animal (they sometimes think of the feeding by themselves,
and sometimes help me with the cleaning).

My question is more about how much attention is reasonable to expect them to
spend doing something that THEY say they like and want to keep. If it's a
puzzle or game that gets played once in a blue moon, it is easy enough to
stick it in the garage until the next time. Or if my child says she wants
to play an instrument, but rarely actually does it, that is no big deal.
But the pets take up more room and require time and money to care for even
when nobody wants to pay attention to them.

My 10yod clearly loves animals. Especially ones that we don't own! I am
taking her to guide dog puppy training classes and I assist as needed with
her pet sitting jobs. For the past couple of months she has been asking for
a pet bird. I'm not against her having a pet bird, but I wonder if it will
end up being treated like the hamster is treated, or should I say not
treated, but ignored most of the time. Maybe I need to revise my idea of
how much attention certain pets need.

Mary Ellen

nellebelle

> You're noticing the animal wants more attention, and your kids aren't.
Point
> out your observations to them. They'll probably start paying more
attention
> to the animal's cues to be fed, watered, played with.>>>>>>

Thanks, I'll try this.

Mary Ellen

Mary

From: "nellebelle" <nellebelle@...>

<<I'm not against her having a pet bird, but I wonder if it will
end up being treated like the hamster is treated, or should I say not
treated, but ignored most of the time. Maybe I need to revise my idea of
how much attention certain pets need.>>


I think then maybe you should look at the pets you have or want. If you
don't mind the care giving and are looking at the attention, how much
attention can a hamster really need???? Put a little wheel in there or buy
one of those hamster balls and let him roll all over the floor for awhile. I
bet the kids would watch him then!!! And depending on the kind of bird,
walking by the cage every hour or so and talking to him is attention. I'm
not sure whether it's necessary to take him out and "play" with him. A bird
is one thing I have never had.

Mary B

jmcseals SEALS

<<My question is more about how much attention is reasonable to expect them
to
spend doing something that THEY say they like and want to keep.>>

I know, but again, I think it is unrealistic to assume they will *want* to
care for an animal, including attention, as much as the animal needs it. I
think it is reasonable to expect that when they asked for the animal they
had every intention in the world of caring for it and providing it with
undying attention and love. By emphasizing THEY, it sounds as though *you*
have expectations of them that they have not met. Honestly, I don't think
it is reasonable or realistic to expect a 10 yr old child to fully grasp the
permanance of an animal's needs. I know some children do, but I know a lot
don't!

<< If it's a puzzle or game that gets played once in a blue moon, it is easy
enough to
stick it in the garage until the next time. Or if my child says she wants
to play an instrument, but rarely actually does it, that is no big deal.
But the pets take up more room and require time and money to care for even
when nobody wants to pay attention to them.>>

I don't see an animal being much different at all, to a child, than a game
or an instrument. They all have their 'honeymoon' phases of interest. They
all take up space, time and money and must be cared for if we want them to
be kept in good condition. I realize there is an emotional and living need
with the animal, but to a child, it's not much different. In the beginning,
it's all sugar and chocolate. Sooner or later, you begin to crave salt.

<<My 10yod clearly loves animals. Especially ones that we don't own! I am
taking her to guide dog puppy training classes and I assist as needed with
her pet sitting jobs.>>

That's great! She will have an opportunity to spend time with animals she
loves without any worries!

<< For the past couple of months she has been asking for
a pet bird. I'm not against her having a pet bird, but I wonder if it will
end up being treated like the hamster is treated, or should I say not
treated, but ignored most of the time.>>

If you are willing to accept that it *will* be ignored most of the time by
your child and are willing to step in and give it the attention it needs,
then get the bird! If you feel like you will be resentful, put out and
irritated, don't.

<< Maybe I need to revise my idea of
how much attention certain pets need.>>

Not necessarily. I think you should think more about how much *you* want to
care for these animals under the assumption that in a few days, weeks or
months, the kids won't.

I understand completely how you feel. I have been there far too many times
and it wasn't until *I* changed my perspective that the problem was solved.

If we trust our children to know when and how to acquire knowledge, then a
natural extension of that trust would be understanding that they will care
for their pets and give their love and attention when they want to and need
to. When the time comes that she is ready to completely care for an animal,
she will do it. Without pushing and prodding. Without suggestion. And
without making promises she isn't prepared to keep.

Something to chew on. Feel free to spit at any time! <bg>

Jennifer

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nellebelle

> If we trust our children to know when and how to acquire knowledge, then a
> natural extension of that trust would be understanding that they will care
> for their pets and give their love and attention when they want to and
need
> to. When the time comes that she is ready to completely care for an
animal,
> she will do it. Without pushing and prodding. Without suggestion. And
> without making promises she isn't prepared to keep.>>>>>

I really appreciate your comments. It certainly is my problem. The kids
are happy with having the pets here when they are interested and paying no
attention at other times. I'm the one who is bothered. What is the point
of having a pet if all we do is give it food? Why do we have it unless we
do want to spend time with it? I could certainly find other things to keep
in the space that is currently occupied by pets and their trappings, not to
mention other things to do besides clean cages! <g>

It relates to parts of the unschooling process that I still haven't figured
out. There are only so many hours in a day, only so many square feet in a
house, and only so much money available. How do we decide where to allocate
those resources to best support our children?

When a child says they want a pet (or shows an interest in something) do we
rush out and get it? Or do we wait until they've indicated that they
really, really, really want it? How can we tell how much they want it?
Where is the line between the unschooling parent who supports all the kids'
interests and the one who doesn't do enough?

I suppose there are no set answers to those questions. Knowing my children
will give me clues. Still, I could use some guidance from some of you
experts out there :-)

Mary Ellen

jmcseals SEALS

<<When a child says they want a pet (or shows an interest in something) do
we
rush out and get it? Or do we wait until they've indicated that they
really, really, really want it? How can we tell how much they want it?
Where is the line between the unschooling parent who supports all the kids'
interests and the one who doesn't do enough?>>

No, maybe, we can't, there isn't one. <g>

I don't think there are many things we should rush out and do, save putting
our a fire or some other drastic necessity. Of course, there are times for
spontinaeity but bringing a pet into our homes isn't a good time for that!
;) They may indicate they really, really want it the first time they see
it. Caring for another living being is a big responsibility and one that
deserves serious consideration and thought. I don't think there is a way to
really know how much they want it other than listening to them and watching
them.

Boy, I wish I supported all my kids' interests but the truth is, I don't. I
acknowledge what they express interest in but sometimes things just look
cool and they don't want or need me to rush out and grab everything I can
get my hands on related to the moon, just because tonight it happened to
look really cool hiding behind the clouds. There are times that they do
express an interest in something and I simply can't indulge them. My
daughter wants a $300 bike but will have to wait until we move and get
settled. She's also going to earn money to pay for half of it because it is
above what we can spend on a bike. Imagine if all seven of my kids wanted a
$300 bike! OUCH!

If we ran with every little whim our kids have....well in my case, I'd need
my husband to pick up about 35 more jobs and 10 more houses to store all the
junk in! LOL

<<I suppose there are no set answers to those questions. Knowing my
children
will give me clues.>>

I think the best thing you can do is to relax. Don't worry that you might
be depriving them of diving into every possible new adventure head first.
Kids do a lot when left to their own devices. The key is to support their
emotional and physical needs and find creative solutions and possibilities
for all the rest. You don't have to rush out and buy a bird right away. Or
a clarinet, volleyball net or anything else for that matter. If you feel
the urge to rush out and buy or do, take a trip to the library and talk
about birds on the way there. Maybe your daughter will grab a bird book.
Or maybe she'll grab a cookbook and beg you for a set of her own pots and
pans!

Kids feel everything with such passion and zest. Trust your judgement and
hone in on those patience skills. It will all work out in the end and you
will have drawn the perfect line of balance and happiness.

Jennifer

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Have A Nice Day!

They may indicate they really, really want it the first time they see
it. Caring for another living being is a big responsibility and one that
deserves serious consideration and thought. I don't think there is a way to
really know how much they want it other than listening to them and watching
them.<<<<<


When I was a kid, I "really really" wanted pets. I vowed I'd take care of them, and I did for a day. Then I'd get bored of it and forget about the care. I loved playing with the pets, but hated the responsibility.

Most of the time, when I see parents worrying about their kids not taking care of pets, its because they think their kids are growing up to be irresponsible. (Funny how we have a tendency to take one small thing like that and make it into the "big picture".)

The good news is, this worry is really unnecessary.

Today, I'm a full grown adult. And when I got my dog, I was afraid I'd be irresponsible (bec. that is what I always heard from my parents about how I didn't care for my pets).

The truth is, I LOVE animals, and I DO take really good care of them, now that I'm an adult. So for all of these years, I've lived with this fear that I would be the cause of some animal's suffering and avoided getting a pet of my own.

Because of my own experience, I've decided that when we get pets, they are for me to care for. So, if its something I feel *I* can handle, I might do it (unless hubby objects). But if I can't, I'll say "no" but I don't necessarily lecture anyone on the proper care of pets like I might have a few years ago.

I'm not saying anyone else here was doing that, just me :o).

Kristen


----- Original Message -----
From: jmcseals SEALS
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, June 08, 2003 1:49 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Pets


<<When a child says they want a pet (or shows an interest in something) do
we
rush out and get it? Or do we wait until they've indicated that they
really, really, really want it? How can we tell how much they want it?
Where is the line between the unschooling parent who supports all the kids'
interests and the one who doesn't do enough?>>

No, maybe, we can't, there isn't one. <g>

I don't think there are many things we should rush out and do, save putting
our a fire or some other drastic necessity. Of course, there are times for
spontinaeity but bringing a pet into our homes isn't a good time for that!
;) They may indicate they really, really want it the first time they see
it. Caring for another living being is a big responsibility and one that
deserves serious consideration and thought. I don't think there is a way to
really know how much they want it other than listening to them and watching
them.

Boy, I wish I supported all my kids' interests but the truth is, I don't. I
acknowledge what they express interest in but sometimes things just look
cool and they don't want or need me to rush out and grab everything I can
get my hands on related to the moon, just because tonight it happened to
look really cool hiding behind the clouds. There are times that they do
express an interest in something and I simply can't indulge them. My
daughter wants a $300 bike but will have to wait until we move and get
settled. She's also going to earn money to pay for half of it because it is
above what we can spend on a bike. Imagine if all seven of my kids wanted a
$300 bike! OUCH!

If we ran with every little whim our kids have....well in my case, I'd need
my husband to pick up about 35 more jobs and 10 more houses to store all the
junk in! LOL

<<I suppose there are no set answers to those questions. Knowing my
children
will give me clues.>>

I think the best thing you can do is to relax. Don't worry that you might
be depriving them of diving into every possible new adventure head first.
Kids do a lot when left to their own devices. The key is to support their
emotional and physical needs and find creative solutions and possibilities
for all the rest. You don't have to rush out and buy a bird right away. Or
a clarinet, volleyball net or anything else for that matter. If you feel
the urge to rush out and buy or do, take a trip to the library and talk
about birds on the way there. Maybe your daughter will grab a bird book.
Or maybe she'll grab a cookbook and beg you for a set of her own pots and
pans!

Kids feel everything with such passion and zest. Trust your judgement and
hone in on those patience skills. It will all work out in the end and you
will have drawn the perfect line of balance and happiness.

Jennifer

_________________________________________________________________
Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online
http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/7/03 10:28:42 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
nellebelle@... writes:

> My question is more about how much attention is reasonable to expect them
> to
> spend doing something that THEY say they like and want to keep.

I think you were talking about a hamster. For the most part they are
nocturnal and sleep pretty much all day. Mine sleep all day. We have a couple.
Different species so they are in different habitats but they make their little
nest and curl up all day and sleep. But if we are up around midnight and hear
the wheel turning we will take them out to play for a while. We do have a
small mouse and he has lots of play things in his habitat but he is just to small
and quick to take out. He would be gone in a flash.

We have quite the variety of pets. I find that if I take the hamster out to
play then the boys get real interested real fast and will spend a half hour or
so playing. I think they forget sometimes but if I start they will follow.
Pam G.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/7/03 10:28:42 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
nellebelle@... writes:

> For the past couple of months she has been asking for
> a pet bird. I'm not against her having a pet bird, but I wonder if it will
> end up being treated like the hamster is treated, or should I say not
> treated, but ignored most of the time. Maybe I need to revise my idea of
> how much attention certain pets need.
>
>

Birds can be "trained" to tolerate or even like human contact but we have a
couple of birds, canary birds, and they seem to be stressed when I put my hand
in their cage. Like when I clean things. So I don't push the interaction
with the birds and try to clean as quickly as possible. There are so many toys
out there for birds and the ones we have like to be together. They play
together all the time. We have just 2. We enjoy watching them and listening to
them.
Pam G.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Julie Bogart

>
> My 10yod clearly loves animals. Especially ones that we don't
own! I am
> taking her to guide dog puppy training classes and I assist as
needed with
> her pet sitting jobs. For the past couple of months she has
been asking for
> a pet bird. I'm not against her having a pet bird, but I wonder if
it will
> end up being treated like the hamster is treated, or should I
say not
> treated, but ignored most of the time. Maybe I need to revise
my idea of
> how much attention certain pets need.
>
> Mary Ellen

Mary Ellen, we grew up with pet birds and they are basically
attention-maintenance free. :) They sit in their cages and if they
are happy, they sing. I highly recommend a canary that can be
near a sunny window. They make the most incredible music. We
also had numerous parakeets. Their cages need cleaning and
they do need food and water, but they don't actually need to be
played with.

We had neighbors who used to allow their parakeet to fly around
the family room. That was exciting! My mom didn't go in for that. :)

We later had an African grey parrot. It was loud, very messy, and
mean spirited when you'd open the cage door. I feel sorry for the
big fella now. I don't think African grey parrots are meant to be in
cages.

Our family now has had one bunny and two pet rats. The bunny
was a waste of time and money. Not friendly at all. The rats, otoh,
were wonderful! If my son would cycle out of his daily interest, I
would just take one of the rats out from time to time myself. This
almost always re-awakened his interest in them. My husband
would too. He'd take a rat and put it on his leg and let the little
guy climb up to his waist (while lying down).

Then our son would jump right in. Sometimes it's more fun to
play with a pet... while playing with a human too. ;-)

Julie B

Julie Bogart

--- In [email protected], "nellebelle"
<nellebelle@c...> wrote:


>
> When a child says they want a pet (or shows an interest in
something) do we
> rush out and get it? Or do we wait until they've indicated that
they
> really, really, really want it? How can we tell how much they
want it?
> Where is the line between the unschooling parent who
supports all the kids'
> interests and the one who doesn't do enough?

Great questions.

I'm just where you are now. I have a son who is really an animal
lover and has been for his entire life. He's now 8, almost 9. I
haven't wanted a dog because I don't want to hound (he he) the
kids to look after it and I may have allergies. I'm also a bird lover
and I don't like the idea of our dog chasing them all away from
our yard.

Yet my son has a passion that it unbending toward animals and
would love a dog or pet or something! That's why we began with
pet rats. This worked well for him because rats are friendly,
clean (yes, they are) and intelligent. They also have short life
spans. They were full of cysts and had to be put to sleep after
two years. This turned out to be about the right life span for a pet
for him.

We now have membership passes to our city zoo. And we're
talking about the next pet... which may actually be a dog. I'm
working up to it. We read about animals, we watch birds together
(he's becoming quite a birder!) and he even stops to look at
insects (yesterday: "Mommy, Mommy, come quickly. We have
baby bees all over our flowers. They're so cute!").

My older kids have asked for a dog many times, but then they
lose interest in even asking. My 8 yr old has an undying love for
them. I'm beginning to think that I am holding him back from one
of the tings that makes him tick.

This has come through hundreds of conversations and
observations and connections.

So we're just about to make some pet decisions ourselves.
>
> I suppose there are no set answers to those questions.
Knowing my children
> will give me clues.

Yes. And accommodate and support all the interest that you see.
Take advantage of every dog your child knows now. Read animal
books. Observe birds in your yard. Go to the zoo, farms and other
animal places. Pets are good, but there's a world of animals out
there.

I found a great book called Working with Wildlife that had all
kinds of jobs available for adults who wanted to work with
animals. That was an inspiring little tome for my boy and we're
now following up on some of its ideas.

Good luck!

Julie B

Olga

Mary Ellen,

I would be very careful with getting a bird. From my understanding
they get extremely attached to their owners and have a very difficult
time readjusting (macaws can die of a broken heart, literally). Some
types of birds can become very hostile if left with someone else for
a vacation of something like that. They also live a very long time
so it is a huge commitment. It really takes the right person to be a
bird owner so just a little warning. If she really wants one you may
want to see if you can get her involved with a bird rescue center of
some sort so she can see first hand the energy they need. Just
thought I would mention it because I found all that info suprising!

Olga :)
For the past couple of months she has been asking for
> a pet bird. I'm not against her having a pet bird, but I wonder if
it will
> end up being treated like the hamster is treated, or should I say
not
> treated, but ignored most of the time. Maybe I need to revise my
idea of
> how much attention certain pets need.
>
> Mary Ellen

Olga

Mary,

I don't know much about the little birds which is probably what she
is thinking about but larger birds do. They need time out of cage,
actual play time, etc. They are a heck of a lot more complicated
than I ever imagined. Needless to say we will not be getting a
bird! BTW, I heard similar things about rabbits. I saw this show
about this lady that did rescues of rabbits and she was saying how
they live for 13 years or so and are very snuggly little guys. Her
cheif complaint was people get them on a whim and then get rid of
them by letting them loose, etc. It was pretty interesting and kind
of sad, who knew? LOL

Olga :)
And depending on the kind of bird,
> walking by the cage every hour or so and talking to him is
attention. I'm
> not sure whether it's necessary to take him out and "play" with
him. A bird
> is one thing I have never had.
>
> Mary B

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/8/03 9:16:13 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
julie@... writes:

> Our family now has had one bunny and two pet rats. The bunny
> was a waste of time and money. Not friendly at all

Someone else also wrote about bunnies becoming "dud" pets.. Landon has a
blue dutch bunny and also a Dumbo rat ( has big ears). Both are wonderful,
loving, fun pets.. BUT, bunnies do take a lot more effort to get them to be really
domesticated. Well, actually, the effort is just a lot of handling when
they are still young. Landon did a lot of research on rabbit care before he
decided to get a rabbit. He knew it was going to take time and lots of handling
to get his bunny used to being petted. He got Ed ( his bunny) when he was
just weaned from his moma, and he also made sure that he had already been
handled. He bought him from a reputable breeder and not a pet store. So, Ed has
been a part of our family from the get go and we all handled him a lot. There
are certain ways to hold/pet rabbits, and Landon had learned all about them,
so we knew how to hold him and how NOT to hold him. He is litter boxed
trained and he comes when you call him. He kicks his shavings around when you walk
by to show he wants your attention.. Or he kicks the cage, almost like a
karate side kick. He stands on his hind legs to beg for a treat. Its funny. So,
I guess my point was.. Rabbits can make good pets if you know how to care for
them

Teresa


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/8/2003 2:23:36 AM Central Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:
> When a child says they want a pet (or shows an interest in something) do we
> rush out and get it? Or do we wait until they've indicated that they
> really, really, really want it? How can we tell how much they want it?
> Where is the line between the unschooling parent who supports all the kids'
> interests and the one who doesn't do enough?

Something we've done that I think works really well, is research just exactly
what we really want. For example, Sierra really wanted a rabbit. But having
an outdoors animal and one that won't want to be held much, isn't what she
really wants. So we all discussed just exactly what the kids wanted.
They wanted a pet they could carry around, hold a lot and play with.
But their Dad is allergic to a lot of animals and we have a small house.

The perfect animal was a rat. Rats LOVE to be held and played with, which
makes them a marvelous kids pet. Unlike hamsters and other rodents, rats actually
crave human interaction. They're curious and amusing.

While I do most of the cage cleaning, I often go in and find that someone has
beat me to the filling of the water and food dishes. They get their rats out
and play with them frequently. In fact, I often get reminded that Luna (my
rat) hasn't been held enough lately and would they like me to bring her out? :)
Smart kids!!
I've never,ever said anything other than,"boy, these ratties sure act like
they need some attention"
They LOVE their little friends. So I think choosing a truly right pet for
your family needs is really important.

We're getting a greyhound next. The kids have learned through my research to
really think about all the pet qualities you want. Trevor told me he really
wants to get a male greyhound because it will be more playful than a female (the
females are extremely calm most times) so they know through former experience
that choosing specific pet qualities can make or break the relationship! And
when we choose these pets I am getting something I know I am willing to care
for on my own, so that takes a lot of pressure off too.

Ren


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Kris

> I suppose there are no set answers to those questions. Knowing my
children
> will give me clues. Still, I could use some guidance from some of you
> experts out there :-)
>
> Mary Ellen

I think this is hitting the nail on the head. We can understand unschooling
and respecting and trusting our children but still it can feel like flying
by the seat of our pants.

Lanora, 12, REALLY wanted to breed rats. She took excellent care of the
three she already had and put in hours of research into their care. We
adopted a mom and her litter. They aren't neglected "care" wise, she feeds
them and cleans their cage BUT they aren't played with much.

She admits that it's too much and regrets her decision (thankfully there
have been no more babies). I have reminded her that she should be giving
them the same amount of attention because her regret isn't their fault but
it hasn't really made much difference.

Even when you're "almost positive" that they're "sure" it can surprise you.
If she ever says she "really" wants something else I will still trust her,
she has gained much more realistic perspective from this experience. She
has passed on several opportunities for new pets since, she doesn't want the
responsibility.

Kris

Mary

From: "Olga" <britcontoo@...>

<< I would be very careful with getting a bird. From my understanding
they get extremely attached to their owners and have a very difficult
time readjusting (macaws can die of a broken heart, literally). Some
types of birds can become very hostile if left with someone else for
a vacation of something like that. They also live a very long time
so it is a huge commitment.>>


Well like I said I've never had a bird but I think that maybe you are more
referring to parrots as opposed to parakeets, canaries or cockatiels. I
don't think they live any longer than big dogs. Don't parakeets live like
8-10 years??? My MIL had quite a few cockatiels and they were friendly but
not so attached to her that they would die without her. One flew out the
door, one died and one she had to give away when she moved. That one did
fine in it's new home.

Now looking at macaws or african greys or cockatoos is a totally different
bird!!! Way more expensive, sensitive and lives a lot longer.

Mary B

Mary

From: "Olga" <britcontoo@...>

<<I don't know much about the little birds which is probably what she
is thinking about but larger birds do. They need time out of cage,
actual play time, etc. They are a heck of a lot more complicated
than I ever imagined.>>


Yeah I know that about the larger birds. I really have my heart set on a
Peach Moluccan Cockatoo. One day though. They are pretty darn expensive and
being that I never had a bird before, not exactly the right pet for me right
now! But I love them and well, maybe when I retire from having little kids.




<<Her cheif complaint was people get them on a whim and then get rid of
them by letting them loose, etc. It was pretty interesting and kind
of sad, who knew? >>


That I know too because I see the ads from the Wildlife Rescue Center here
saying they are over run with bunnies. At Easter they are begging people not
to buy from stores and if they really want a rabbit come and see them.
Sierra asks about a bunny every bnow and then and Tara always wanted a bunny
when she was younger. I just have a hard time with a pet that when left out
will just run away and I need to go chasing it. Not sure really how calm and
affectionate some bunnies are. I think I'll stick to a turtle for now. Might
be bringing one home this week.

I want to go to Teepee Western Wear for a belt for Joe and the Seminoles are
right across the street always selling turtles. I've wanted to stop a few
times but never have. I'll have to see how much this will all cost me.
Sierra loves turtles. We actually had a large box turtle years ago that Joe
found. Tina Turtle!!! We ended up letting her go at a wildlife park. She was
so happy to swim away. I almost cried.

Mary B

Mary

From: <grlynbl@...>

<<Rabbits can make good pets if you know how to care for
> them>>


He sounds wonderful but you actually helped me definitely decide not to get
a bunny. I really don't have that much time to devote to a bunny and with
the dogs and cats, just not a good calming house for a bunny to come into.
Thanks.

Mary B

Mary

From: <starsuncloud@...>

<<We're getting a greyhound next. >>


Puppy or rescue dog???

Mary B

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/8/2003 4:06:23 PM Central Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:
> Puppy or rescue dog???

Oh, definitely a rescue. We've already been in contact with the adoption
agency...can't wait!!

Ren


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Mary

From: <starsuncloud@...>

<<Oh, definitely a rescue. We've already been in contact with the adoption
agency...can't wait!!>>


How wonderful!!!! I know a few people who have adopted rescue greyhounds and
they make fantastic companions and family members. Enjoy and let me know how
the new one does.

Mary B

[email protected]

Mary wrote:

>From: <starsuncloud@...>
>
><<Oh, definitely a rescue. We've already been in contact with the adoption
>agency...can't wait!!>>
>
>
>How wonderful!!!! I know a few people who have adopted rescue greyhounds and
>they make fantastic companions and family members. Enjoy and let me know how
>the new one does.
>

We adopted a Greyhound in October and he's a riot. May and October are
usually "Adopt a Senior" month with many groups so our adoption fee was
waved. "Senior" my foot!!!!! He tears around the yard at breakneck
speeds and digs holes to the center of the Earth. LOL He's really a
pretty cool dog. One giant perk (IMO) is *minimal* shedding. I have
enough "fur tumbleweeds" already. ;^)

TreeGoddess

[email protected]

genant2@... writes:

<< They play
together all the time. We have just 2. We enjoy watching them and
listening to
them.
Pam G.
>>

A new neighbor downstairs has four birds, and she keeps them outside on the
back porch. We have the best of both worlds, Alex and I go down to watch them
and listen to them sing, but we don't have to feed them or clean out their
cages ( and with two cats, I just don't want to deal with THAT anyway!) . It's
wonderful! They're so sweet!

~Aimee