[email protected]

In a message dated 6/6/03 11:17:39 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:

>
> This evidence is really important, that someone who works with kids a lot
> (Police Athletic League volunteer), someone who's in law enforcement, sees
> an
> enthusiastic, well-behaved, cooperative kid, and is confident that he came
> from a
> house with discipline and rules.
>
> Discipline and rules? All-fired flaming hedonists? (Whatever the
> accusation was.)
>
> Neither of the above.
>
> Sandra
>

Sandra, you have such great kids!!! I was thinking about this concept the
other day, after talking with a friend who is having difficulties with her 4 year
old. She goes to preschool and the traits that were already driving my friend
nuts are getting worse. So the topic of discipline and rules came up. People
always assume that because kids like our house so much it must have something
to do with our discipline and rules. I have agreed most of the time. The funny
thing is, their idea of discipline and rules are no where like ours. Our
rules are: have fun, enjoy yourself, be kind - not hateful or mean, never hurt
each other physically and respect each other. The discipline is: if you can't be
or do the afforementioned, then don't come over until you can. It's so simple
and yet it seems people want it to be so much more about power and less about
choices in being a decent human. So I guess we really do have rules and
discipline, just not what are considered the standard of those. But really I don't
know what would be the standard.

My friend is a gem, she and her hubby think my kids are the standard by which
all kids should be measured. I warn them that my kids are just what they are
because they are free to be so. Of course I slip in words of encouragement for
their child and am really hoping they will choose to take her out of school.
She goes 3 days a week now and I just hope for her sake they realize that the
traits they dislike won't magically disappear as long as she attends any
school.

Rhonda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Heidi

People
> always assume that because kids like our house so much it must have
something
> to do with our discipline and rules. I have agreed most of the
time. The funny
> thing is, their idea of discipline and rules are no where like
ours. Our
> rules are: have fun, enjoy yourself, be kind - not hateful or mean,
never hurt
> each other physically and respect each other. The discipline is: if
you can't be
> or do the afforementioned, then don't come over until you can.

I've been wanting to ask advice about a related incident. We went to
the swimming pool with a friend of Robby's and his little brother.
This is a kid with no manners (the friend. 10yrs. old). We had him
over for dinner a month or two ago, and I never saw the like: both
arms on the table, wrapped around the plate, face down, fork in
shovel position...and when he was done, he just got up and was
leaving. I said "Sit back down please, and excuse yourself."

Anyway. We're at the pool. The kids are hungry. I have two dollars.
One for Robby and Friend. One for Katie and Little Brother. I get the
one dollar out and have it in my hand...and this kid GRABBED THE
DOLLAR! I was making to hand it to Robby. And he just GRABBED IT!

Here comes a "shoulda". Shoulda said "That's for Robby. He'll be
treating you to something at the concession stand." but I didn't. I
just said "You're going to share that!" I'm such a WEENIE sometimes.

And the boys got what the friend wanted. Ugh. Robby wanted fries, but
they bought Doritos. Okay. Little Brother realizes that Friend got
something (because Friend made a point of saying "We had Doritos and
didn't share them with you.") and pretty soon meanders over. Not
asking directly, mind you. But said sort of to himself "I'm hungry."
ugh. Robby's directness might put some people off. His style is more
likely to be, making eye contact and asking "Can we get something to
eat?"

Little Brother and Katie got fries and shared them around.

And when it was time to get out of the pool, it was like their ears
were turned off completely. I did bring that up, when we got into the
car. "We want to bring you swimming with us as often as possible, but
if you can't listen to me when I say Outta The Pool, we won't be able
to bring you."

So...we're in rural Idaho. A dearth of kids for playing with. But I'm
ready to banish this boy from our lives.

any ideas?

HeidiC

Tim and Maureen

----- Original Message -----
From: Heidi
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2003 5:39 AM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: friends over/ rules & discipline


People
> always assume that because kids like our house so much it must have
something
> to do with our discipline and rules. I have agreed most of the
time. The funny
> thing is, their idea of discipline and rules are no where like
ours. Our
> rules are: have fun, enjoy yourself, be kind - not hateful or mean,
never hurt
> each other physically and respect each other. The discipline is: if
you can't be
> or do the afforementioned, then don't come over until you can.

I've been wanting to ask advice about a related incident. We went to
the swimming pool with a friend of Robby's and his little brother.
This is a kid with no manners (the friend. 10yrs. old). We had him
over for dinner a month or two ago, and I never saw the like: both
arms on the table, wrapped around the plate, face down, fork in
shovel position...and when he was done, he just got up and was
leaving. I said "Sit back down please, and excuse yourself."

Anyway. We're at the pool. The kids are hungry. I have two dollars.
One for Robby and Friend. One for Katie and Little Brother. I get the
one dollar out and have it in my hand...and this kid GRABBED THE
DOLLAR! I was making to hand it to Robby. And he just GRABBED IT!

Here comes a "shoulda". Shoulda said "That's for Robby. He'll be
treating you to something at the concession stand." but I didn't. I
just said "You're going to share that!" I'm such a WEENIE sometimes.

And the boys got what the friend wanted. Ugh. Robby wanted fries, but
they bought Doritos. Okay. Little Brother realizes that Friend got
something (because Friend made a point of saying "We had Doritos and
didn't share them with you.") and pretty soon meanders over. Not
asking directly, mind you. But said sort of to himself "I'm hungry."
ugh. Robby's directness might put some people off. His style is more
likely to be, making eye contact and asking "Can we get something to
eat?"

Little Brother and Katie got fries and shared them around.

And when it was time to get out of the pool, it was like their ears
were turned off completely. I did bring that up, when we got into the
car. "We want to bring you swimming with us as often as possible, but
if you can't listen to me when I say Outta The Pool, we won't be able
to bring you."

So...we're in rural Idaho. A dearth of kids for playing with. But I'm
ready to banish this boy from our lives.

any ideas?

HeidiC


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/7/03 5:40:46 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
bunsofaluminum60@... writes:

> And when it was time to get out of the pool, it was like their ears
> were turned off completely. I did bring that up, when we got into the
> car. "We want to bring you swimming with us as often as possible, but
> if you can't listen to me when I say Outta The Pool, we won't be able
> to bring you."
>
> So...we're in rural Idaho. A dearth of kids for playing with. But I'm
> ready to banish this boy from our lives.
>
> any ideas?
>
> HeidiC
>

Heidi,

I think you handled it well by giving this child clear expectations of what
it takes to be included in your family. I can totally identify with what
happened though. More often than not in my exprience, those are the kids who stick
around the longest. They are the kids screaming out for attention and will do
anything for it. I've noticed that bullying or other posturing often comes from
the kids who don't have a voice in their own homes. It's actually so sad and
yes they often want boundaries, but NOT the boundaries our unsubbed poster was
speaking of. They simply want to know that someone on the planet gives a crap
about them enough to tell them so.

My hubby loves it when Jenny Jones or one of the other talk show people has
the ones with kids who are so bad they get sent to boot camp. He's an x-marine
and although he'd die that I'm saying this, always gets teary eyed when the
head of the boot camp gets in those kids faces and breaks them down. His point
is also that all those kids are looking for is someone who will say, you are
worthy enough to be told you can't be an a$$hole. He always makes me laugh. He
thinks it would be the best job in the world to save kids from themselves
because no one else has bothered. He often thinks the parents should have to go
thru some kind of boot camp to understand their own role in why their children
feel so unworthy and act out accordingly. We agree that no kid just wakes up one
morning a bad a$$.

I'd say don't give up on him yet. You have the opportuniy to make a
difference in his life. By no means do I say keep him around if you and your kids get
fed up or the dynamics become all about him either. I just think your whole
family has an opportunity to learn so much from this child and vice versa. Good
luck to you. Let us know how it goes.

Rhonda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Mary

From: "Heidi" <bunsofaluminum60@...>

<<So...we're in rural Idaho. A dearth of kids for playing with. But I'm
ready to banish this boy from our lives.
any ideas?>>


I'm not really sure if I understand if your children enjoy being around this
boy. If it's you taking on the friend without your children really enjoying
being around him, then that's a different story. I have a friend who I enjoy
being around. She has a daughter that I must say I don't enjoy being around.
I feel like this child has possibly some type of autism that the mother
doesn't seem to want to recognize. The daughter can be sweet one moment and
rude and physically aggressive the next. My kids have tried to play with
her. She doesn't really play "with" anyone. She's very antagonistic with no
visible comprehension of the results. I've tried and my kids have tried and
it doesn't work. I only see her in groups now where my kids can keep a
distance.

If your kids really do enjoy the company of this little boy, I would try
harder so that he can understand how people are with people they enjoy being
around. Just saying a few words to him about not leaving the table or not
grabbing is not enough. You didn't say how much you really talk to him so
I'm not sure if you take more time with him alone to get to know him. Years
and years ago I was having a hard time with my soon to be step daughter. I
was in counseling and I was told that I could be the one person to make a
difference in this childs life. She was having a hard time with everyone
else, she needed someone to try and understand her. It wasn't about how I
was feeling about her behavior. It was about her. Now this was family so a
bit different but I made a solid effort every day and even though she's no
longer my step daughter, I talk to her all the time and she spends holidays
here and I adopted (not literally) her as my 5th child that I always wanted.

Find out who this little boy is and talk to him, a lot. Talk about what you
see and what you do and what others do in circumstances. I have a feeling
that he hears often one liners of what he should or shouldn't do but no more
than that. So hearing it from you probably has no bearing on him. Being this
little kids friend may make a difference. But then again, it's a matter of
if you want to and if your kids really like him around. There's nothing
wrong with not wanting to be around people you don't enjoy.

Mary B

Heidi

--- In [email protected], RJHill241@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 6/7/03 5:40:46 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
> bunsofaluminum60@h... writes:
>
> > And when it was time to get out of the pool, it was like their
ears
> > were turned off completely. I did bring that up, when we got into
the
> > car. "We want to bring you swimming with us as often as possible,
but
> > if you can't listen to me when I say Outta The Pool, we won't be
able
> > to bring you."
> >
> > So...we're in rural Idaho. A dearth of kids for playing with. But
I'm
> > ready to banish this boy from our lives.
> >
> > any ideas?
> >
> > HeidiC
> >
>
> Heidi,
>
> I think you handled it well by giving this child clear expectations
of what
> it takes to be included in your family. I can totally identify with
what
> happened though. More often than not in my exprience, those are the
kids who stick
> around the longest. They are the kids screaming out for attention
and will do
> anything for it. I've noticed that bullying or other posturing
often comes from
> the kids who don't have a voice in their own homes. It's actually
so sad and
> yes they often want boundaries, but NOT the boundaries our unsubbed
poster was
> speaking of. They simply want to know that someone on the planet
gives a crap
> about them enough to tell them so.

<snip>


> I'd say don't give up on him yet. You have the opportuniy to make a
> difference in his life. By no means do I say keep him around if you
and your kids get
> fed up or the dynamics become all about him either. I just think
your whole
> family has an opportunity to learn so much from this child and vice
versa. Good
> luck to you. Let us know how it goes.
>
> Rhonda


Yeah, both of these boys have classic "pay attention to me" behavior.
The little one, bouncing off the walls constantly. I'm talking, seven
years old and climbing on top of tables and bouncing on the benches
at church,(as a kid would do, bouncing on the bed) and acting very
disrespectfully when talked to about it "I don't HAVE to." And the
older one, my boy's friend...well, I've described him. He's friendly
and SO boyish and big and just clueless.

I know the "training" he has had: don't listen to mom until she's
freaking out on me, and I had to talk myself into a better mood
before saying what I did say. Were we really in a hurry? No...except
they were hungry and it was past dinner time, and their folks were
expecting them back, etc.

I think you're right. My boy and he get along okay (Robby's a more
bookish, computer geek type) and I think we can do it. The more time
he spends with us, the easier he is going to be, to enjoy.

thanks

HEidiC


>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Heidi

--- In [email protected], "Mary" <mummy124@b...>
wrote:
> From: "Heidi" <bunsofaluminum60@h...>
>
> <<So...we're in rural Idaho. A dearth of kids for playing with. But
I'm
> ready to banish this boy from our lives.
> any ideas?>>
>
>
> I'm not really sure if I understand if your children enjoy being
around this
> boy. If it's you taking on the friend without your children really
enjoying
> being around him, then that's a different story.

Oh, it's Robby's desire to hang with this kid, no doubt. And I want
him to have time with friends FOR SURE.

<snip>
> If your kids really do enjoy the company of this little boy, I
would try
> harder so that he can understand how people are with people they
enjoy being
> around. Just saying a few words to him about not leaving the table
or not
> grabbing is not enough.
You didn't say how much you really talk to him so
> I'm not sure if you take more time with him alone to get to know
him.

Agreed. If we do end up having him around more, I'll definitely be
spending time with him and Robby together, and he'll hear more from
(us) about how things are done around here. I'm going to have to
think EVERY time, though. Like, stop and THINK. Because, just bolting
down one's food and dashing is irritating. The rudeness of it is
shocking. I mean, I didn't think there was such a thing as a family
where kids don't learn table manners. So, when he shovelled his food
in and made to dash, I just responded. I wasn't rude. Just
said "Please sit back down and ask to be excused. That's how we do it
around here." or some such. And he did.

<snip>
> Find out who this little boy is and talk to him, a lot. Talk about
what you
> see and what you do and what others do in circumstances. I have a
feeling
> that he hears often one liners of what he should or shouldn't do
but no more
> than that. So hearing it from you probably has no bearing on him.

I'll add my hearty "Amen!" to that. He simply does not hear when an
adult of any stripe speaks to him. There was a near wrassling match
with one of the dads at church, when he was whaling about himself
with a fallen branch. Two year olds playing, and old ladies standing
around visiting, and he's swinging this branch around haphazardly,
poking it, whacking the sidewalk with it. Other kids were around the
corner with some willow wands, playing swords. Not hurting anyone,
and out of the way. This boy was right in the MIDDLE of everyone,
with a whopper of a branch. Hmmmm.

The man said "Put the stick down. You might hurt someone" and the kid
grinned and made to run off. The man got hold of the stick, looked
the kid in the eye and said "Put it down." and the kid did, but not
before trying to wrest the branch from the man's hand. When the man
didn't back down, this boy let go, and went off and played swords
with everyone else. Hmmm.


Being this
> little kids friend may make a difference.

Could very well be. Good points, MaryB. Thanks
HeidiC

[email protected]

From: "Heidi" <bunsofaluminum60@h...>


> >>>>>>Agreed. If we do end up having him around more, I'll definitely be
> spending time with him and Robby together, and he'll hear more from
> (us) about how things are done around here. I'm going to have to
> think EVERY time, though. Like, stop and THINK. Because, just bolting
> down one's food and dashing is irritating. The rudeness of it is
> shocking. I mean, I didn't think there was such a thing as a family
> where kids don't learn table manners.>>>>>>>

This was how it was done in our home as kids. I don't practice this now. When
our children are done eating they get up and clean off their plates and put
them in the sink or dishwasher. My question is what happens when they (your
children) dont ask to get up or leave? Is there a punishment? From the sounds of
your post this is a serious infraction in your home. My kids know table
manners but that is not one of them. When we are in a restaurant they do ask or
announce that they need to go to the restroom etc.. I have never told them to do
so they just do. They dont lay all over the table when they eat nor do they
eat like wild dogs (well minus the 1 yr. old ).

>>>>So, when he shovelled his food
> in and made to dash, I just responded. I wasn't rude. Just
> said "Please sit back down and ask to be excused. That's how we do it
> around here." or some such. And he did.>>
>
>
HUH?
Excused from what? Its not the idea of it, it is how I read the posts. To
me kids
> are kids and when something seems off we speak but do this do that sure
> doesn't sound child driven/centered to me.
>
> >>>>I'll add my hearty "Amen!" to that. He simply does not hear when an
> adult of any stripe speaks to him.>>>>

Stripe??
So you out rank him? Maybe I am having an off night but I just do not
understand why this boy seems to bother you so much. Each family has their values
and rules I guess but if he is not proper enough for your family maybe it would
be best to set him free. I mean he is your sons play mate isn't he? I had to
go back and re read the post to check and see if maybe the boy was a foster. I
just dont get why he needs to be converted????


LAURA D
>
>






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

jmcseals SEALS

>>>>So, when he shovelled his food
>in and made to dash, I just responded. I wasn't rude. Just said "Please sit
>back down and ask to be excused. That's how we do it around here." or some
>such. And he did.>>
>

That's just silly! He probably thought so, too. I mean, really. Kid
shovels food in...probably to hurry and get back to playing or something
else fun...and darts off when he's done. Is that really so much worse than
kid shovels food in...says 'May I be excused?'....and darts off when he's
done? Asking to be excused does nothing for the kid but get him in on your
good side, which he doesn't sound to be anyway. So in the end, it was
fruitless. Just some arbitrary thing you made him do. It's one thing to
let kids know 'this is how we do things around here'...I guess...but the way
it sounds above, I mean, really, couldn't you have just said, 'Hey, next
time would you mind letting us know you are done and taking your dishes to
the sink, please?' Having him GO back and SIT down just to ask to GET up
again??? Maybe it's a late night for me too because that just sounds dumb
and seargant-like.

Bottom line? I think what you did was more rude than what he did and
disrespectful of him.

Do you treat ALL your guests this way that don't 'do it your way'? Or is it
just little annoying kids?

Jennifer

_________________________________________________________________
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

jmcseals SEALS

>>>>I'll add my hearty "Amen!" to that. He simply does not hear when an
>adult of any stripe speaks to him.>>>>

Are you reading what I'm reading??? My goodness, he's a CHILD! He's not a
private in the army or a mouse chasing cheese!! Listen, or rather read,
what you are saying! Seriously, if you mean what you are putting out here,
I think you're in the wrong place to solicit the kind of support and advice
you appear to want. On the other hand, if after reading how shocked some of
us are, you can see the flaws in your thinking, then you have come to the
perfect place!

If I were him and you came across like this to me, I wouldn't listen to you
either!

I say the next time he comes to visit, offer him a hug and some cookies and
milk and let the kids play! Spend your time reading more here and less time
THINKING about what you need to change next about him. It's not your job to
teach him anything! Eventually, he will reflect the actions in your home
that HE deems worthy of reflection. Kindness, good table manners, love and
forgiveness....as well as rude, disrespectful and inconsiderate behavior.

Jennifer

_________________________________________________________________
MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/7/03 3:07:42 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
bunsofaluminum60@... writes:

> I'm going to have to
> think EVERY time, though. Like, stop and THINK. Because, just bolting
> down one's food and dashing is irritating. The rudeness of it is
> shocking. I mean, I didn't think there was such a thing as a family
> where kids don't learn table manners. So, when he shovelled his food
> in and made to dash, I just responded. I wasn't rude. Just
> said "Please sit back down and ask to be excused. That's how we do it
> around here." or some such. And he did.
>

I think you are truly trying to help this child, Heidi and although it would
not be the point of contention for me or my family, if table manners are for
you than perhaps this child shouldn't eat at meal time with your family. I'll
admit when I read this portion of the post I was taken aback a little, because
I never would have assumed you to be so sticky as to require excuse to leave.
You post so often that it just threw me a little. In fact, I wasn't sure if I
would post on it initially.

I agree with most of the responses as far as the table manners go though.
Never in my life have I requested to be excused from a table. I may, at dinner in
a restaurant with a large party, say excuse me but that is just being polite,
not asking permission. As far as my children go, they have table manners, in
that they don't chew with their mouths opens or talk when their mouths are
full, but I would be fully offended if anyone required them to ask permission to
be done or leave the table. At other people's houses, they say thank you and
always clear their portion of the table, but that's about being considerate of
the host/ess. Yet we are always complimented on how they act during meals. I
laugh, because they CHOOSE to be considerate, not because we REQUIRE it.

I still think that your intentions to help this child assimilate to your
family's environment stem from a loving place in your heart and not all about
power. I see that from your posts about trying to get to know these boys more. I
believe you when you say you know your children enjoy their friendship and you
are willing to do what it takes to keep them around.

Rhonda - still wishing luck to Heidi and her children's friends.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Have A Nice Day!

It's not your job to
teach him anything! Eventually, he will reflect the actions in your home
that HE deems worthy of reflection. Kindness, good table manners, love and
forgiveness....as well as rude, disrespectful and inconsiderate behavior.<<<<<<


Just wanted to comment on this. This is a weakness of mine too. I have lots and lots of neighbor kids here, many of which would not be considered "mainstream". These are the kids in detention, suspended, in trouble, etc.

Well, sometimes I blur the lines between wanting to help them and knowing where my role actually stops. Its *not* my job to teach them anything, but I care about them and want them to learn some things. Its a fine line to walk.

Kristen

----- Original Message -----
From: jmcseals SEALS
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, June 08, 2003 12:48 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: friends over/ rules & discipline


>>>>I'll add my hearty "Amen!" to that. He simply does not hear when an
>adult of any stripe speaks to him.>>>>

Are you reading what I'm reading??? My goodness, he's a CHILD! He's not a
private in the army or a mouse chasing cheese!! Listen, or rather read,
what you are saying! Seriously, if you mean what you are putting out here,
I think you're in the wrong place to solicit the kind of support and advice
you appear to want. On the other hand, if after reading how shocked some of
us are, you can see the flaws in your thinking, then you have come to the
perfect place!

If I were him and you came across like this to me, I wouldn't listen to you
either!

I say the next time he comes to visit, offer him a hug and some cookies and
milk and let the kids play! Spend your time reading more here and less time
THINKING about what you need to change next about him. It's not your job to
teach him anything! Eventually, he will reflect the actions in your home
that HE deems worthy of reflection. Kindness, good table manners, love and
forgiveness....as well as rude, disrespectful and inconsiderate behavior.

Jennifer

_________________________________________________________________
MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*.
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Heidi

> > >>>>>>Agreed. If we do end up having him around more, I'll
definitely be
> > spending time with him and Robby together, and he'll hear more
from
> > (us) about how things are done around here. I'm going to have to
> > think EVERY time, though. Like, stop and THINK. Because, just
bolting
> > down one's food and dashing is irritating. The rudeness of it is
> > shocking. I mean, I didn't think there was such a thing as a
family
> > where kids don't learn table manners.>>>>>>>

> This was how it was done in our home as kids. I don't practice this
now. When
> our children are done eating they get up and clean off their plates
and put
> them in the sink or dishwasher.

My kids say "May I be excused" Or "thank you for the food" and take
their dishes to the sink.



My question is what happens when they (your
> children) dont ask to get up or leave? Is there a punishment? From
the sounds of
> your post this is a serious infraction in your home.

Which is why I said I'd have to stop and THINK rather than just
responding automatically. We have a "golden rule" rule at our
house "Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You" IOW, if a
10 year old boy had spent a chunk of time preparing (something) for
the enjoyment of other people, would he rather people say "Very Nice.
Thanks for doing that" or just look at it and then leave? That is
where this leaving the table practice comes from. Someone has spent a
chunk of time preparing the food. It is good manners to at least
pause long enough to ask if one can leave the table. It's also common
practice in these parts.

In fact, our kids have been taught (yes, taught) to say "Thank you
for the food. May I please be excused?"

But this boy hasn't had that rule in his life. He hasn't been taught
that you acknowledge the work that went into blessing the people
sitting around the table. And so, having him around will mean
THINKING things through. Most assuredly, I will be explaining why we
do such and such, rather than simply knee-jerk responding. At the
table, when he just bolted, as I said before, it was surprising, and
I simply responded without THINKING why he was doing such a thing.


My kids know table
> manners but that is not one of them. When we are in a restaurant
they do ask or
> announce that they need to go to the restroom etc.. I have never
told them to do
> so they just do. They dont lay all over the table when they eat nor
do they
> eat like wild dogs (well minus the 1 yr. old ).

So, how do you stop them from splaying themselves out over their
plates like hungry dogs? What if they wanted to eat that way? Do you
correct them at any time for bad table manners? And how do you do so?
Not based on THEIR wishes.

>
> >>>>So, when he shovelled his food
> > in and made to dash, I just responded. I wasn't rude. Just
> > said "Please sit back down and ask to be excused. That's how we
do it
> > around here." or some such. And he did.>>
> >
> >
> HUH?
> Excused from what?
Its not the idea of it, it is how I read the posts. To
> me kids
> > are kids and when something seems off we speak but do this do
that sure
> > doesn't sound child driven/centered to me.

No, but I also don't see anything wrong with reminding him that there
is such a thing as saying thank you and acknowledging the person who
has invited him to the table and fed him. Someone else has said maybe
he'll realize there's someone in the world who gives a rat's a$$ how
he carries himself.

> > >>>>I'll add my hearty "Amen!" to that. He simply does not hear
when an
> > adult of any stripe speaks to him.>>>>
>
> Stripe??
> So you out rank him?

Figure of speech. Here, if a different wording will help you feel
better "He simply does not hear when any adult speaks to him."

As for outranking him: On Pool Day, I had the keys to his ride home
in my hand. Maybe I DID outrank him, eh? I don't know who outranks
him when he's swinging a branch around the faces of two year olds,
but someone should say SOMETHING FORCEFUL to the child, or someone's
going to get hurt. And yet, it took a father (not his, nor his
mother) taking the branch in his hand, establishing eye-contact, and
telling him to cease, for him to actually listen.


Maybe I am having an off night but I just do not
> understand why this boy seems to bother you so much.

Why do you think this boy bothers me SO much? He has done things that
irritate me. He was extremely irritating at the pool. And I was
asking advice. What does a family do, when kids join activities,
whose behavior is irritating, rude, dangerous? Something, I'm sure.
We don't want to say "No more of that boy" because he is friendly and
interesting. But I also don't want him here simply irritating me
every time he's over

Which is why I said my own self, in hanging with him, I'd be THINKING
it out, whenever such an irritation did happen.

HeidiC

Heidi

--- In [email protected], "jmcseals SEALS"
<jmcseals@m...> wrote:
>
>
> >>>>So, when he shovelled his food
> >in and made to dash, I just responded. I wasn't rude. Just
said "Please sit
> >back down and ask to be excused. That's how we do it around here."
or some
> >such. And he did.>>
> >
>
> That's just silly! He probably thought so, too. I mean, really.
Kid
> shovels food in...probably to hurry and get back to playing or
something
> else fun...and darts off when he's done. Is that really so much
worse than
> kid shovels food in...says 'May I be excused?'....and darts off
when he's
> done? Asking to be excused does nothing for the kid but get him in
on your
> good side, which he doesn't sound to be anyway. So in the end, it
was
> fruitless. Just some arbitrary thing you made him do. It's one
thing to
> let kids know 'this is how we do things around here'...I
guess...but the way
> it sounds above, I mean, really, couldn't you have just said, 'Hey,
next
> time would you mind letting us know you are done and taking your
dishes to
> the sink, please?' Having him GO back and SIT down just to ask to
GET up
> again??? Maybe it's a late night for me too because that just
sounds dumb
> and seargant-like.
>
> Bottom line? I think what you did was more rude than what he did
and
> disrespectful of him.
>
> Do you treat ALL your guests this way that don't 'do it your way'?
Or is it
> just little annoying kids?
>
> Jennifer
>

It seems like people are not reading the things I have been saying
about this. I've said a few different times, that I'm realizing the
importance of THINKING out the "why" of things, rather than just
automatically responding.

Did you not see these paragraphs, Jennifer?:

I wrote the following, re: pool incident

"I had to talk myself into a better mood
"before saying what I did say. Were we really in a hurry? No...except
"they were hungry and it was past dinner time, and their folks were
"expecting them back, etc. "

I wrote the following about what I will do in future, when the friend
is over to play and acts obnoxious:

"Agreed. If we do end up having him around more, I'll definitely be
"spending time with him and Robby together, and he'll hear more from
"(us) about how things are done around here. I'm going to have to
"think EVERY time, though. Like, stop and THINK. Because,
"just bolting
"down one's food and dashing is irritating. The rudeness of it is
"shocking.

Can you see that I was saying "I just told him to plop it back down
again and ask permission to leave, because what he did was so
shocking to me." ??? IOW, I recognized my tendency to Jerk The Knee,
and aknowledged that I should THINK of better ways to deal with it.

Can you see that? Yeah, his getting up and dashing was obnoxious
ACCORDING TO MY DEFINITION...but also according to the table manners
that are common around here. People ask to be excused. It's polite in
this area. I had honestly never seen a kid do that. Eat, and dash
off. And so I responded without THINKING.

Respect goes both ways. It was disrespectful of me to just order him
to plant it, but it was disrespectful of him to gobble his food and
split without acknowledging the dinner or the hostess. But I could
have handled it better. Maybe the way you suggest. Like I said, the
kid is basically clueless.

HeidiC

Heidi

--- In [email protected], "jmcseals SEALS"
<jmcseals@m...> wrote:
> >>>>I'll add my hearty "Amen!" to that. He simply does not hear
when an
> >adult of any stripe speaks to him.>>>>
> Are you reading what I'm reading??? My goodness, he's a CHILD!
He's not a
> private in the army or a mouse chasing cheese!! Listen, or rather
read,
> what you are saying!

Lordy be. Is that what "of any stripe" means? Like, "I outrank you"?
Okay...didn't know that. See? Learn something new every day, and
first thing in the morning, too.

Once again, I ask if you read anything else I've written about this
kid. Seems like a branch swinging, like people saying "Put the branch
down" and him ignoring it until someone got ahold of it and spoke to
him forcefully. He doesn't listen. And he didn't listen when we were
at the pool AND I talked to myself about it. Were we really in a
hurry? etc. He had irritated me at the pool by grabbing the dollar I
intended for Robby, out of my hand, and I didn't want to be
arbitrarily saying "Outta the pool" on my time table or based on the
irritation of the dollar thing. Didn't want to take them out unless
we really did have to go. And we did. And so I talked to him about
it.


Seriously, if you mean what you are putting out here,
> I think you're in the wrong place to solicit the kind of support
and advice
> you appear to want.

What?!?!??! Tell me what sort of advice I appear to want. After
reading the things I appear to have said about this. "Going to have
to THINK about how I respond" "Talked myself into a better mood"


On the other hand, if after reading how shocked some of
> us are, you can see the flaws in your thinking, then you have come
to the
> perfect place!
>

Yeah, that's happening.


> If I were him and you came across like this to me, I wouldn't
listen to you
> either!

So, back to the branch swinging thing. If someone said "Hey, put the
branch down. Someone's going to get hurt" would you listen? Because
he wasn't listening then, either. Point being: a kid swinging a
branch doesn't necessarily see that he could hurt someone. But the
adults, standing back and watching other, younger kids in the area
might see something he doesn't see. But if he doesn't listen, what is
one to do? Yes, grab the younger ones, but it is perfectly valid to
request the branch not be swung right now, right there. There's
NOTHING WRONG with telling a kid to stop doing something that is
dangerous. But how, if he doesn't LISTEN?



> I say the next time he comes to visit, offer him a hug and some
cookies and
> milk and let the kids play! Spend your time reading more here and
less time
> THINKING about what you need to change next about him. It's not
your job to
> teach him anything! Eventually, he will reflect the actions in
your home
> that HE deems worthy of reflection. Kindness, good table manners,
love and
> forgiveness....as well as rude, disrespectful and inconsiderate
behavior.
>
> Jennifer

That's my plan. Thanks for the advice.

HeidiC

Heidi

--- In [email protected], RJHill241@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 6/7/03 3:07:42 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
> bunsofaluminum60@h... writes:
>
> > I'm going to have to
> > think EVERY time, though. Like, stop and THINK. Because, just
bolting
> > down one's food and dashing is irritating. The rudeness of it is
> > shocking. I mean, I didn't think there was such a thing as a
family
> > where kids don't learn table manners. So, when he shovelled his
food
> > in and made to dash, I just responded. I wasn't rude. Just
> > said "Please sit back down and ask to be excused. That's how we
do it
> > around here." or some such. And he did.
> >
>
> I think you are truly trying to help this child, Heidi and although
it would
> not be the point of contention for me or my family, if table
manners are for
> you than perhaps this child shouldn't eat at meal time with your
family. I'll
> admit when I read this portion of the post I was taken aback a
little, because
> I never would have assumed you to be so sticky as to require excuse
to leave.
> You post so often that it just threw me a little. In fact, I wasn't
sure if I
> would post on it initially.
>
> I agree with most of the responses as far as the table manners go
though.
> Never in my life have I requested to be excused from a table. I
may, at dinner in
> a restaurant with a large party, say excuse me but that is just
being polite,
> not asking permission. As far as my children go, they have table
manners, in
> that they don't chew with their mouths opens or talk when their
mouths are
> full, but I would be fully offended if anyone required them to ask
permission to
> be done or leave the table. At other people's houses, they say
thank you and
> always clear their portion of the table, but that's about being
considerate of
> the host/ess. Yet we are always complimented on how they act during
meals. I
> laugh, because they CHOOSE to be considerate, not because we
REQUIRE it.
>
> I still think that your intentions to help this child assimilate to
your
> family's environment stem from a loving place in your heart and not
all about
> power. I see that from your posts about trying to get to know these
boys more. I
> believe you when you say you know your children enjoy their
friendship and you
> are willing to do what it takes to keep them around.
>
> Rhonda - still wishing luck to Heidi and her children's friend

Thanks, Rhonda

In fact, it is this group that has caused me to think about better
ways to deal with this kind of thing. Asking "why is he acting this
way" instead of glowering down at him and demanding he do it my way.
Them, actually, because I'm changing how I deal w/my own kids, too.

My intentions about this child really are for him and my boy to hang
together, and me to be able to hack it, when he does things that are
rude, obnoxious, and/or irritating. I know, as I change how I respond
to such things, that they will decrease in both number and level of
irritation. Level of irritation may just change because of MY
changes.

thanks again.

HeidiC

averyschmidt

> My kids say "May I be excused" Or "thank you for the food" and
>take
> their dishes to the sink.

My kids also thank me, but not because I make them say it or because
it's a "rule" in our home.
I think they've learned it by example and do it because they're
geuninely thankful and/or because they tend to think of my feelings
since I've always thought of theirs. Sometimes after a sit-dow-
together meal (which we don't even always do) they're in a big hurry
to get up... usually because they have something they're excited to
do, and I might remind them "could you bring your dishes over to the
sink? Thanks!" That's about it.

> In fact, our kids have been taught (yes, taught) to say "Thank you
> for the food. May I please be excused?"

My children have friends (2 brothers) who say this when they eat
with us and we all find it somewhat amusing. Not in a mean way, but
in a "isn't-that-quaint-and-old-fashioned" way. To me it's a
reminder that many people still see children as basically inferior
to adults. I don't think needing permission to leave the table has
anything to do with "showing respect" or "being thankful." Respect
is earned, not commanded, and being thankful comes from actually
being thankful, and you can only know if someone is truly thankful
(and being honest) if they are free to be that.

> So, how do you stop them from splaying themselves out over their
> plates like hungry dogs? What if they wanted to eat that way? Do
>you
> correct them at any time for bad table manners? And how do you do
>so?
> Not based on THEIR wishes.

Yes, based on THEIR wishes. I think that kids just need time and
information. "When you chew with your mouth open it really bothers
some people." It's not "correcting" them, it's giving them good
information about how to live in the world happily. It might seem
like a small difference but it's actually a whole new paradigm. You
could see them as little brutes who need to be "corrected" and
molded into respectable humans, or you can see them as people who
mean well but lack our broader experience.

> > >>>>So, when he shovelled his food
> > > in and made to dash, I just responded. I wasn't rude.

No, you just responded without thinking... exactly why you perceived
the little boy as rude- because he got up from the table without
thinking.

> > > said "Please sit back down and ask to be excused. That's how
we
> do it
> > > around here." or some such. And he did.>>

I'm sorry, but this really sounds like a control issue on your part!
Mabye I'm just way more liberal than most people, but the only time
I tell one of my children's guests to do or not do something it's
a "biggie" i.e. it threatens people or property.

>Someone else has said maybe
> he'll realize there's someone in the world who gives a rat's a$$
how
> he carries himself.

That sounds like a control issue disguised as "caring" about someone.

>I don't know who outranks
> him when he's swinging a branch around the faces of two year olds,
> but someone should say SOMETHING FORCEFUL to the child, or
someone's
> going to get hurt. And yet, it took a father (not his, nor his
> mother) taking the branch in his hand, establishing eye-contact,
and
> telling him to cease, for him to actually listen.

Mabye because he's told so often what to do and not do do about
things that don't really matter that he's tuning adults out when
they are saying something that *does* matter. I, personally, would
have removed the stick from his hand myself right off the bat! I
don't waver when it comes to my kids' safety. The last friend who
visited here and wasn't nice to my three year old wasn't invited
back for a long time. To me that's a whole different issue
than "may I please be excused."

Patti

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/8/2003 8:41:04 AM Eastern Standard Time,
bunsofaluminum60@... writes:
> Which is why I said I'd have to stop and THINK rather than just
responding
> automatically. We have a "golden rule" rule at our
house "Do Unto Others As
> You Would Have Them Do Unto You" IOW, if a
10 year old boy had spent a chunk
> of time preparing (something) for
the enjoyment of other people, would he
> rather people say "Very Nice.
Thanks for doing that" or just look at it and then
> leave? That is
where this leaving the table practice comes from. Someone has
> spent a
chunk of time preparing the food. It is good manners to at least

> pause long enough to ask if one can leave the table. It's also common
practice in
> these parts.

In fact, our kids have been taught (yes, taught) to say "Thank
> you
for the food. May I please be excused?"
I have never taught my kids or Husband to say thank you and may I please be
excused (reminds me of "thank you may I please have another"). They DO say
thank you or thanks Mom I have never told them to. They do not ask for permission
to leave the table as they don't ask for more helpings they just do it. When
they are out at others homes they don't just get up and walk away they sit
with the family until they notice or know what the routine is. I have never told
them what or how to do it.

Laura D



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/8/03 8:41:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
bunsofaluminum60@... writes:

> In fact, our kids have been taught (yes, taught) to say "Thank you
> for the food. May I please be excused?"
>
>

Do guests and spouse ask that as well?

I guess we don't have a sit down meal so I have no point of reference. My
boys eat when they are hungry so it is hard to pin point a time to have a meal
prepared and I am learning to eat that way too. I try to have things around
that they like and when they are hungry they sometimes ask for help to see what
we have and help cooking it if that is what they want. If I am cooking
something for myself I will ask if they wane me to cook extra for them as well.
Also have things in the frig that can be microwaved. Anyway that wasn't the
point of the post.

I guess for my boys eating is just to relieve hunger. They eat till they are
no longer hungry then stop. They like things that are portable so they don't
have to stop whatever exciting thing they are doing at the moment. I can
appreciate that. I know sometimes I am busy and don't want to stop.

Pam G.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/8/03 8:41:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
bunsofaluminum60@... writes:

> But this boy hasn't had that rule in his life. He hasn't been taught
> that you acknowledge the work that went into blessing the people
> sitting around the table.

Maybe he was just so excited about being over at a "cool" house with his
"cool" friends that he wanted to eat and get back to whatever exciting thing he
was doing before. I don't think about excusing myself from the table. I was
never asked to excuse myself from the table as a child, I don't think it is
necessarily the norm in most households, at least not so many that I would expect
that from my neighbors or friends.
Pam G.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/8/03 8:41:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
bunsofaluminum60@... writes:

> No, but I also don't see anything wrong with reminding him that there
> is such a thing as saying thank you and acknowledging the person who
> has invited him to the table and fed him. Someone else has said maybe
> he'll realize there's someone in the world who gives a rat's a$$ how
> he carries himself.
>
>

If he comes over and your children always say "thanks for the food Mom, can I
be excused?" He might pick it up from them, or he might not.
Pam G.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/8/03 8:41:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
bunsofaluminum60@... writes:

> As for outranking him: On Pool Day, I had the keys to his ride home
> in my hand. Maybe I DID outrank him, eh? I don't know who outranks
> him when he's swinging a branch around the faces of two year olds,
> but someone should say SOMETHING FORCEFUL to the child, or someone's
> going to get hurt. And yet, it took a father (not his, nor his
> mother) taking the branch in his hand, establishing eye-contact, and
> telling him to cease, for him to actually listen.
>
>
>

I think of the car as a tool for us to do the things we want to do. Not
everyone has a car but we do. I don't hold that over my children. They don't
have to act a certain way to get a ride.

My boys love sticks. We bring at least 2 home every week from play group and
they even have a little collection and can tell you where they picked up each
stick. So much creative play with a stick. But I do have to remind them
often that it might not be a good idea to take it on a crowded jungle gym (you
know those slide/play things they have on playgrounds now). A lot of children
running and jumping, someone might get hurt. But I offer to hold it for them
while they get up and go play, and they usually take me up on it. Sometimes
just a little reminder that the child might not see everyone in his sticks path
is all it takes. Reminder to make sure they know where the stick is going.
Anyway, long enough.
Pam G.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/8/03 8:41:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
bunsofaluminum60@... writes:

> But I also don't want him here simply irritating me
> every time he's over
>
>

My boys have a good friend that I find so rude and irritating. But my boys
ignore that kind of stuff because they like playing with him overall. They
treat him nice. Sometimes I feel like my boys are "too nice" for that rude
child. But I say to myself if my boys can overlook that stuff and they still want
to have him over then I should stay out of it. I don't feel it is my
responsibility to "change" his behavior. I do watch what is going on out of the corner
of my eye, and stay involved with what they are doing. My boys do have other
friends and if it gets to a point where they are not willing to put up with
his behavior to play with him they know they have other options. Didn't we just
have a discussion about putting up with rudeness...my boys are good at
problem solving and also asking for help problem solving.
Pam G.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/8/2003 8:41:04 AM Eastern Standard Time,
bunsofaluminum60@... writes:
> >>>>>>>Figure of speech. Here, if a different wording will help you feel

> better "He simply does not hear when any adult speaks to him." >>>>>>
I figured that but it still doesn't look any better. The children will mind
an adult or else is still screaming through. I understand what you are saying
but I simply do not agree. You cant have a warden part of the time. When will
the child relax if the fear of forgetting to say excuse me exists.
I too was surprised when this post came though and I posted and then was
surprised to see it was someone who posts a bit.

>>>>>>>>I don't know who outranks
him when he's swinging a branch around the
faces of two year olds,
but someone should say SOMETHING FORCEFUL to the
child, or someone's
going to get hurt. And yet, it took a father (not his, nor his

mother) taking the branch in his hand, establishing eye-contact, and
telling
him to cease, for him to actually listen. >>>>>>>>

Why? Why not say it nice? Why not move the 2 yr. olds? I am thinking you see
this child as someone who is lacking in parenting and you know who the parents
are and are trying to fix the child or prove a point behind the parents back.
That would make you the royal enforcer. You are convinced your way works or
will produce a better child. My children see me as an equal not a disciplinary
force ruling over them.

>>>>>>He has done things that
irritate me. He was extremely irritating at the
pool. And I was
asking advice. What does a family do, when kids join
activities,
Whose behavior is irritating, rude, dangerous? Something, I'm sure.
We
don't want to say "No more of that boy" because he is friendly and
interesting.
But I also don't want him here simply irritating me
every time he's over>>>>

I understand that you FEEL that he was rude to you BUT does that mean that a
parent who spanks heavily should feel that your child should be spanked for
not following their family rules?
Irritating you, rude to you? The basis of a friend is for your son not you
why not let the boy be a child. My guess is this table thing is not all that
takes place. I see you have religious values but some of them do not fit into
Unschooling as they are laid out.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/8/2003 8:57:31 AM Eastern Standard Time,
bunsofaluminum60@... writes:
> Can you see that? Yeah, his getting up and dashing was obnoxious
ACCORDING
> TO MY DEFINITION...but also according to the table manners
that are common
> around here. People ask to be excused. It's polite in
this area. I had honestly
> never seen a kid do that. Eat, and dash
off. And so I responded without
> THINKING.

Well, around here they don't eat and dash but they also do not request to get
out a chair. This boy is an example that you all are not as common as you
may think.

Laura D



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/8/2003 8:57:31 AM Eastern Standard Time,
bunsofaluminum60@... writes:
>
Respect goes both ways. It was disrespectful of me to just order him
to
> plant it, but it was disrespectful of him to gobble his food and
split without
> acknowledging the dinner or the hostess. But I could
have handled it better.
> Maybe the way you suggest. Like I said, the
kid is basically clueless.

HeidiC

To me if the boy eats your food that alone tells you he likes your cooking.
If you where at someone's home would you ask to be excused? I bet no, you may
tell them the food was good or thank you and a child will see by example but
NOT forced to.

Laura D



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

zenmomma2kids

>> The man said "Put the stick down. You might hurt someone" and the
kid grinned and made to run off. The man got hold of the stick,
looked the kid in the eye and said "Put it down." and the kid did,
but not before trying to wrest the branch from the man's hand.>>

I don't know, I probably would have been pissed if that man had taken
away something I was playing with. I may have instinctively tried to
grab it back too.

That problem of him playing with the stick around everyone else
didn't have only one solution..."Put it down because I said so." The
boy may have reacted better to "Hey cool stick but there's too many
people here. Someone might get hurt. Why don't you take it over to
that open field to play with?" or "How about sword fighting with
other kids instead?" or "I need to keep everyone safe, and it's
really not safe to use that here and now. Let's save that for later
or at home."

"Put the stick down." was not the only answer.

Life is good.
~Mary

averyschmidt

> "Put the stick down." was not the only answer.

Good point.
I originally thought the boy was waving the stick *at* the two year
olds and wouldn't respond to verbal input, hence my position that I
would take it.
If he was just playing with it in a dangerous way, and was open to
the suggestion to move the play elsewhere, then I think taking the
stick away would be totally unreasonable.

Patti

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/8/03 9:33:21 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
patti.schmidt2@... writes:

> Mabye because he's told so often what to do and not do do about
> things that don't really matter that he's tuning adults out when
> they are saying something that *does* matter. I, personally, would
> have removed the stick from his hand myself right off the bat! I
> don't waver when it comes to my kids' safety. The last friend who
> visited here and wasn't nice to my three year old wasn't invited
> back for a long time. To me that's a whole different issue
> than "may I please be excused."
>
> Patti
>

Yeah, I agree with all of this. To me also, the table manners are not nearly
as big a deal as the safety issues. I would ask the kid once to put the
stick down, say something like, "oh, watch it with the stick, we don't want
anyone to get hurt, please put it down" Then if he didnt, just take it away from
him and say again, " I dont want anyone to get hurt".

The table manners.. well, we don't have any at my house.. LOL.. nah, we do,
just not the "formal"kind. We do say "pass the so and so", and my kids
usually thank me for a meal or maybe just tell me how much they liked it. But, they
do that of thier own accord. Maybe because they have always heard me say
something along those lines to other folks when we eat at thier houses. Maybe
it's just because they appreciate it and want to tell me. My Daddy once told
us, "your Moma worked very hard on this meal, you should thank her for it"
And, he would always thank her for the meal or say how good it was. I agreed
100% with him and I DID appreciate my Mom for cooking our food, so I always
told her, and I still do. I always thank my husband when he takes us out for
dinner ( or whomever pays for the meal)

We don't do the "excused from the table" thing. It's just something we never
adopted as good manners practice. Maybe it is a regional thing, but folks
around here don't usually excuse themselves.. Well, if you get up in the middle
of a meal, you would say "excuse me" the same as you would do if you had to
leave in the middle of anything. But after eating, folks usually sit around
and talk or get up and leave, whichever they want to do. Sometimes the kids
want to stay and talk, sometimes they eat and then back to whatever they
were doing. If they are REALLY into something, but they are also hungry, they
will just get thier food and take it with them to eat as they continue thier
"thing". If we are having a sit down meal, they usually opt to sit down
with us and enjoy the family conversation.

I would think, if your family usually excuses themselves after their meal, if
the kid continues to come around and have meals with your family, he will
pick up on that and probably start to do it too. And, if he doesn't, I wouldn't
stress over it. It's just probably something he is not accustomed to.

Teresa


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[email protected]

In a message dated 6/8/03 10:49:55 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
zenmomma@... writes:

> I don't know, I probably would have been pissed if that man had taken
> away something I was playing with. I may have instinctively tried to
> grab it back too.
>
>

That reminds me of a story. We were at a McDs with Jackson's dad, Jackson
was not there. Just me father-in-law and my two boys (6 and 9). Dad's choice
of restaurant by the way, none of us really like McDs food. The boys got happy
meals. The were nibbling and playing as they were really not that hungry.
He, father-in-law, grabbed Dallen's toy and said "you can't play with that
until you eat all your food." Dallen looked puzzled as he has never been told
that before then reached over and gently took his toy back. He said "I'm not
hungry." Father-in-law said "you have to eat your food." That is when I stepped
in and said "no he doesn't." End of conversation. (by the way I was the one
that bought the food not my FIL)

I didn't want to say anything else in front of the boys to him so I
explained the situation to Jackson at home that night and had him talk to his dad
about trying to discipline our boys when he is visiting us.

Pam G.


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