Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Praising Our Kids - Punished by Rewards II
[email protected]
T'was I that suggested the book. I am absolutely adamant that Pam's example is highly distructive. I read that the writer was doling out praise - I am adamant that that is a manipulation too. Being genuine is not a manipulation. If I liike my child's behavior I smile. Genuine. If I give them a cookie to get MORE of that behavior, I set up an economy of manipulation. Don't! Our culture is toooooooo full of this "rats in a cage/ behavior mod" mentality.
I think unschoolers are genuine when they let the child pursue their interests. Collecting comics, bugs or dried dung. Makes no matter.
My (adamant) thots
Tim Thomas
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I think unschoolers are genuine when they let the child pursue their interests. Collecting comics, bugs or dried dung. Makes no matter.
My (adamant) thots
Tim Thomas
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Christina M Ledford
I agree with you wholeheartedly. This is basically the message I was
trying to get across but ended up every which way but loose...
I do have a concern, however, when it comes to my 5-yo grandson who was
diagnosed with ADHD. Now, I know I'm going to raise some antennae, but
let me just say here and now that I know how often this blanket diagnosis
is applied to kids -- the school system tried to apply it to my son
James. I wasn't about to buy into it one bit, but even though I trusted
my own experiences with James, I felt it couldn't hurt to check it out
with my brother who is the area's acknowledged expert on ADHD. Anyway,
my grandson's behavior was something different entirely. He was most
definitely out of control -- unable to settle himself down, particularly
in "stimuating" environments -- preschool being one of them. He was
literally bouncing off walls. As adamantly opposed as I am to meds for
kids, I, of course, had to accept my daughter's decision to at least try
medication. The difference is amazing. This child can now sit and
color, can play Legos, etc., activities he couldn't engage in before for
more than a few minutes at best. He notices how he feels "different"
now. He's not drugged out, his personality is unchanged, etc.; he's just
calmer and is able to focus. In my grandson's case, my daughter has been
encouraged to use behavior mod (not with food, of course) -- praising him
whenever he's focused, etc., since as effective as the medication might
be, nothing really happens long-term without "training" the brain.. But,
I'm not the expert, and although, as I mentioned, my brother is, I'm more
comfortable hearing about people's own personal experiences with this
issue. If I'm forgiven, may I have some feedback on the ADHD issue.
Thanks,
Christina
On Thu, 05 Jun 2003 12:49:19 -0700 tmthomas@... writes:
trying to get across but ended up every which way but loose...
I do have a concern, however, when it comes to my 5-yo grandson who was
diagnosed with ADHD. Now, I know I'm going to raise some antennae, but
let me just say here and now that I know how often this blanket diagnosis
is applied to kids -- the school system tried to apply it to my son
James. I wasn't about to buy into it one bit, but even though I trusted
my own experiences with James, I felt it couldn't hurt to check it out
with my brother who is the area's acknowledged expert on ADHD. Anyway,
my grandson's behavior was something different entirely. He was most
definitely out of control -- unable to settle himself down, particularly
in "stimuating" environments -- preschool being one of them. He was
literally bouncing off walls. As adamantly opposed as I am to meds for
kids, I, of course, had to accept my daughter's decision to at least try
medication. The difference is amazing. This child can now sit and
color, can play Legos, etc., activities he couldn't engage in before for
more than a few minutes at best. He notices how he feels "different"
now. He's not drugged out, his personality is unchanged, etc.; he's just
calmer and is able to focus. In my grandson's case, my daughter has been
encouraged to use behavior mod (not with food, of course) -- praising him
whenever he's focused, etc., since as effective as the medication might
be, nothing really happens long-term without "training" the brain.. But,
I'm not the expert, and although, as I mentioned, my brother is, I'm more
comfortable hearing about people's own personal experiences with this
issue. If I'm forgiven, may I have some feedback on the ADHD issue.
Thanks,
Christina
On Thu, 05 Jun 2003 12:49:19 -0700 tmthomas@... writes:
> T'was I that suggested the book. I am absolutely adamant that Pam's[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> example is highly distructive. I read that the writer was doling
> out praise - I am adamant that that is a manipulation too. Being
> genuine is not a manipulation. If I liike my child's behavior I
> smile. Genuine. If I give them a cookie to get MORE of that
> behavior, I set up an economy of manipulation. Don't! Our culture
> is toooooooo full of this "rats in a cage/ behavior mod" mentality.
>
> I think unschoolers are genuine when they let the child pursue their
> interests. Collecting comics, bugs or dried dung. Makes no
> matter.
>
> My (adamant) thots
>
> Tim Thomas
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
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[email protected]
In a message dated 6/5/03 2:40:56 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
christina989@... writes:
I'm glad to see you have not given up hope on the list yet, as your previous
post seemed to indicate. Please understand that this group is not the
standard, all inclusive type, that a lot of Yahoo groups tend to be. Rather, this is a
group of ecclectic thinkers, people who can't stand thinking inside the box
and more than anything put their children above and beyond everything else that
exists. Some people have always unschooled, some have found it later than
they would have liked, but were just glad to find that such a way of life exists
outside their own homes. It is not just about school though. Rather it is
about living life and the knowledge one gains by enjoying that life. All of us
have different points of view, but what you must understand about this group is
that whatever topic you choose to post, you WILL get feedback and often the
outlooks will vary. My only caution to you is to not take what responses you get
as personal attacks. More often than not, when we are defensive, it is because
one side or the other is not fully comprehending what is being pointed out at
the request of the original poster. Being unschoolers is hard enough to
explain to other homeschoolers, the last thing anyone here wants to do is argue our
choices.
As for the whole ADHD/ADD argument, I am well versed but frankly not in the
mood for it this afternoon. That does not mean that I will not be responding it
simply means I will contemplate my response if I choose to end up talking
about the condition. The saddest thing about this as a condition is that so often
even the "experts" are wrong. Sadly I think far too many parents take the
easy road out by going the drug route, just because some expert says so. Then
there are kids who are misdiagnosed completely from day one, are then put on drug
therapies that don't work and these kids are tossed to the side as not being
worthy of education.
Rhonda - who is stopping because she's gonna start rambling without
comtemplation.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
christina989@... writes:
> But,Christina,
> I'm not the expert, and although, as I mentioned, my brother is, I'm more
> comfortable hearing about people's own personal experiences with this
> issue. If I'm forgiven, may I have some feedback on the ADHD issue.
>
I'm glad to see you have not given up hope on the list yet, as your previous
post seemed to indicate. Please understand that this group is not the
standard, all inclusive type, that a lot of Yahoo groups tend to be. Rather, this is a
group of ecclectic thinkers, people who can't stand thinking inside the box
and more than anything put their children above and beyond everything else that
exists. Some people have always unschooled, some have found it later than
they would have liked, but were just glad to find that such a way of life exists
outside their own homes. It is not just about school though. Rather it is
about living life and the knowledge one gains by enjoying that life. All of us
have different points of view, but what you must understand about this group is
that whatever topic you choose to post, you WILL get feedback and often the
outlooks will vary. My only caution to you is to not take what responses you get
as personal attacks. More often than not, when we are defensive, it is because
one side or the other is not fully comprehending what is being pointed out at
the request of the original poster. Being unschoolers is hard enough to
explain to other homeschoolers, the last thing anyone here wants to do is argue our
choices.
As for the whole ADHD/ADD argument, I am well versed but frankly not in the
mood for it this afternoon. That does not mean that I will not be responding it
simply means I will contemplate my response if I choose to end up talking
about the condition. The saddest thing about this as a condition is that so often
even the "experts" are wrong. Sadly I think far too many parents take the
easy road out by going the drug route, just because some expert says so. Then
there are kids who are misdiagnosed completely from day one, are then put on drug
therapies that don't work and these kids are tossed to the side as not being
worthy of education.
Rhonda - who is stopping because she's gonna start rambling without
comtemplation.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pamela Sorooshian
On Thursday, June 5, 2003, at 02:35 PM, Christina M Ledford wrote:
behavior - the dots being given out for the kids staying on task,
right? That was the point. The thing is - these manipulations DO work,
temporarily and briefly. They don't work for what we want in the long
run - they don't help kids develop intrinsic motivation, for example,
but they quiet down the class, for a while. From a classroom teacher's
point of view - that's "working," I guess. Sad.
-pam
>> I am absolutely adamant that Pam'sYou mean that my example was illustrative of a highly destructive
>> example is highly distructive.
behavior - the dots being given out for the kids staying on task,
right? That was the point. The thing is - these manipulations DO work,
temporarily and briefly. They don't work for what we want in the long
run - they don't help kids develop intrinsic motivation, for example,
but they quiet down the class, for a while. From a classroom teacher's
point of view - that's "working," I guess. Sad.
-pam