calculators / math (was TV Voluntarily Off)
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/5/03 8:26:43 AM, bunsofaluminum60@... writes:
<< a jump in technology from chalk to
pencil isn't the same kind of jump as from pencil to calculator.
Therefore, the calculator math teachers' scenario rang false. >>
Maybe.
When people are worshipful of pen and ink, the next question (backwards, not
forwards) is it important that they make their own quill pin? Grind and mix
their own ink? Make their own paper?
At some point technology IS real.
You can drive a car without needing to know how to build or even how to fix
one. And although a quick thought suggests that with horses people needed to
know their horses personally, feed and clean them and train them, in lots of
situations people rode or drove horses they NEVER had to feed or brush, because
that's just how it was. They had people to do that.
So about calculators...
If people are going to "do math" (for example, in school) themselves on
paper, how far can that really go? Bookkeeping isn't even done by hand anymore.
Slide rules and proportional rulers (those three-sided rulers lots of our
dads had, whatever they're called) kept people from having to do their own
calculations at one level, but they're useful for things you can't very well do on
paper.
And in all cases, the real math is knowing what numbers to put into the
calculator, not knowing what buttons to push.
Doing school math on paper is over 90 percent just pushing the buttons
someone else told you to push, and knowing times tables and "subtraction facts."
It's a lame, tiny corner of mathematics.
Sandra
<< a jump in technology from chalk to
pencil isn't the same kind of jump as from pencil to calculator.
Therefore, the calculator math teachers' scenario rang false. >>
Maybe.
When people are worshipful of pen and ink, the next question (backwards, not
forwards) is it important that they make their own quill pin? Grind and mix
their own ink? Make their own paper?
At some point technology IS real.
You can drive a car without needing to know how to build or even how to fix
one. And although a quick thought suggests that with horses people needed to
know their horses personally, feed and clean them and train them, in lots of
situations people rode or drove horses they NEVER had to feed or brush, because
that's just how it was. They had people to do that.
So about calculators...
If people are going to "do math" (for example, in school) themselves on
paper, how far can that really go? Bookkeeping isn't even done by hand anymore.
Slide rules and proportional rulers (those three-sided rulers lots of our
dads had, whatever they're called) kept people from having to do their own
calculations at one level, but they're useful for things you can't very well do on
paper.
And in all cases, the real math is knowing what numbers to put into the
calculator, not knowing what buttons to push.
Doing school math on paper is over 90 percent just pushing the buttons
someone else told you to push, and knowing times tables and "subtraction facts."
It's a lame, tiny corner of mathematics.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/5/2003 12:12:35 PM Eastern Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
wrong because he didn't show his work. Problem was he didn't do math they
way they did it nor did he want to. So, they, the school said he was LD in math
also. Why? They never once got that he did it in his head instead they accused
him of "cheating" with a calculator. I did ask a few times why a paper was
wrong and they said he didn't show the work. (like he was secretly tapping
away on a calculator in class, they where not allowed)
It wasn't until I brought him home that I noticed his actual method.
When he has a figure he needs to do he does it in his head. Multiplication
tables and memorizing them was difficult for him. He had his own way of the big
picture in his head not their one way teaches all. Funny thing is he can do
division and fractions but when asked x tables he goes blank. I noticed this
when he was trying to cook something and the measuring cup was missing so he
needed use a different one but was trying to figure out where to make up the
difference. I suggested the way I knew/learned in school and he went blank and
said Mom, I got it! Ok,lol
Laura D
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
>I can remember when my son was in school he would often get his papers marked
> And in all cases, the real math is knowing what numbers to put into the
> calculator, not knowing what buttons to push.
>
> Doing school math on paper is over 90 percent just pushing the buttons
> someone else told you to push, and knowing times tables and "subtraction
> facts."
>
> It's a lame, tiny corner of mathematics.
>
> Sandra
wrong because he didn't show his work. Problem was he didn't do math they
way they did it nor did he want to. So, they, the school said he was LD in math
also. Why? They never once got that he did it in his head instead they accused
him of "cheating" with a calculator. I did ask a few times why a paper was
wrong and they said he didn't show the work. (like he was secretly tapping
away on a calculator in class, they where not allowed)
It wasn't until I brought him home that I noticed his actual method.
When he has a figure he needs to do he does it in his head. Multiplication
tables and memorizing them was difficult for him. He had his own way of the big
picture in his head not their one way teaches all. Funny thing is he can do
division and fractions but when asked x tables he goes blank. I noticed this
when he was trying to cook something and the measuring cup was missing so he
needed use a different one but was trying to figure out where to make up the
difference. I suggested the way I knew/learned in school and he went blank and
said Mom, I got it! Ok,lol
Laura D
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/5/03 1:41:11 PM Pacific Daylight Time, HMSL2@...
writes:
in math. It always annoyed me and the more the teacher insisted the harder it
was for me to understand. I was accused of looking at the answers in the back
of the book and I was horrified at been told to my face I was a cheater. It
had never occured to me to look up the answer, for I understood the question and
was able to answer it just couldn't show how I got there. Especially with
word problems. You know the ones where if you get on a train travelling to
Timbuctoo at yada yada yada, I always pictured myself on the train with a watch and
could calculate whatever was requested by simply putting myself there. Try
explaining that to your math teacher who has a personality of a protractor.
Geometry was even worse, because I have this whole space and time issue anyway, so
I would slip into these planes and if I could not fathom them regardless of
theory, it was a lost cause. To this day I don't know how I got thru all the
math that school required, because I simply don't see math like most everyone
else I know.
I'm glad my kids will never be faced with: "you're doing it wrong!!!" I don't
get what could be wrong if you get the answer right.
Pam S. what do you do when you get students like me?
Rhonda - who was a banker of all things until she retired 5 years ago LOL No
one cares how you get the answer in banking as long as it's the correct amount
of $$$.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
writes:
> I can remember when my son was in school he would often get his papersOh I remember this so well in school. I have never been able to show my work
> marked
> wrong because he didn't show his work. Problem was he didn't do math they
> way they did it nor did he want to. So, they, the school said he was LD in
> math
> also. Why? They never once got that he did it in his head instead they
> accused
> him of "cheating" with a calculator. I did ask a few times why a paper was
> wrong and they said he didn't show the work. (like he was secretly tapping
> away on a calculator in class, they where not allowed)
> It wasn't until I brought him home that I noticed his actual method.
>
in math. It always annoyed me and the more the teacher insisted the harder it
was for me to understand. I was accused of looking at the answers in the back
of the book and I was horrified at been told to my face I was a cheater. It
had never occured to me to look up the answer, for I understood the question and
was able to answer it just couldn't show how I got there. Especially with
word problems. You know the ones where if you get on a train travelling to
Timbuctoo at yada yada yada, I always pictured myself on the train with a watch and
could calculate whatever was requested by simply putting myself there. Try
explaining that to your math teacher who has a personality of a protractor.
Geometry was even worse, because I have this whole space and time issue anyway, so
I would slip into these planes and if I could not fathom them regardless of
theory, it was a lost cause. To this day I don't know how I got thru all the
math that school required, because I simply don't see math like most everyone
else I know.
I'm glad my kids will never be faced with: "you're doing it wrong!!!" I don't
get what could be wrong if you get the answer right.
Pam S. what do you do when you get students like me?
Rhonda - who was a banker of all things until she retired 5 years ago LOL No
one cares how you get the answer in banking as long as it's the correct amount
of $$$.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Heidi
You know the ones where if you get on a train travelling to
who is it who writes that the way to get a solution is by getting
into the problem. The way kids are taught in school, it comes across
as, "There is this vast pool of right answers. If you find the right
hook, you'll get the right answer" and it doesn't teach kids to
think, it teaches them that all you have to do is get the right
answer.
Was that John Holt? In "The Way Kids Fail"?
urg, now I gotta go get the book and see.
HeidiC
> Timbuctoo at yada yada yada, I always pictured myself on the trainwith a watch and
> could calculate whatever was requested by simply putting myselfthere. Try
> explaining that to your math teacher who has a personality of aprotractor.
who is it who writes that the way to get a solution is by getting
into the problem. The way kids are taught in school, it comes across
as, "There is this vast pool of right answers. If you find the right
hook, you'll get the right answer" and it doesn't teach kids to
think, it teaches them that all you have to do is get the right
answer.
Was that John Holt? In "The Way Kids Fail"?
urg, now I gotta go get the book and see.
HeidiC
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/5/03 9:37:56 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
bunsofaluminum60@... writes:
I had such a difficult time buying the you have to do it this way, when I
found other ways to be so much easier. Just asking for clarification. And I loaned
my John Holt books to my sister in hopes she will see before she starts
teaching.
Rhonda
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
bunsofaluminum60@... writes:
> You know the ones where if you get on a train travelling toSo Heidi, does this mean I was or was not in the "Holt" logic? I ask because
> >Timbuctoo at yada yada yada, I always pictured myself on the train
> with a watch and
> >could calculate whatever was requested by simply putting myself
> there. Try
> >explaining that to your math teacher who has a personality of a
> protractor.
>
> who is it who writes that the way to get a solution is by getting
> into the problem. The way kids are taught in school, it comes across
> as, "There is this vast pool of right answers. If you find the right
> hook, you'll get the right answer" and it doesn't teach kids to
> think, it teaches them that all you have to do is get the right
> answer.
>
> Was that John Holt? In "The Way Kids Fail"?
>
> urg, now I gotta go get the book and see.
>
> HeidiC
>
I had such a difficult time buying the you have to do it this way, when I
found other ways to be so much easier. Just asking for clarification. And I loaned
my John Holt books to my sister in hopes she will see before she starts
teaching.
Rhonda
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/5/03 10:38:00 PM, bunsofaluminum60@... writes:
<< You know the ones where if you get on a train travelling to
<<who is it who writes that the way to get a solution is by getting
into the problem. >>
There's a book by James Adams about thinking. He says that a problem like
there is one trail from the bottom of a mountain to the top. A monk starts at
the top, walking down, and another monk starts at the same time, walking up
from the bottom. Will they meet? He says that question cannot be handled in
ANY way other than visualizing it. No words and no numbers will help a single
bit.
It's called Conceptual Blockbusting, and it's a really wonderful book. I've
given several copies away over the years.
Still in print after 25 years!
Here's a blurb:
Book Description
The best-selling guide to overcoming creative blocks and unleashing a torrent
of great ideas-updated for a new generation of problem solvers.
James Adams's unique approach to generating ideas and solving problems has
captivated, inspired, and guided thousands of people from all walks of life.
Now, twenty-five years after its original publication, Conceptual Blockbusting
has never been more relevant, powerful, or fresh. Integrating insights from the
worlds of psychology, engineering, management, art, and philosophy, Adams
identifies the key blocks (perceptual, emotional, cultural, environmental,
intellectual, and expressive) that prevent us from realizing the full potential of
our fertile minds. Employing unconventional exercises and other interactive
elements, Adams shows individuals, teams, and organizations how to overcome these
blocks, embrace alternative ways of thinking about complex problems, and
celebrate the joy of creativity. With new examples and contemporary references,
Conceptual Blockbusting is guaranteed to introduce a new generation of readers to
a world of new possibilities. --This text refers to the Paperback edition.
Synopsis
Identifies the perceptual, environmental, emotional, and intellectual blocks
that obstruct people from correctly perceiving problems and conceiving their
solutions and provides games and exercises that limber up mental muscles.
<< You know the ones where if you get on a train travelling to
> Timbuctoo at yada yada yada, I always pictured myself on the trainwith a watch and
> could calculate whatever was requested by simply putting myselfthere.
<<who is it who writes that the way to get a solution is by getting
into the problem. >>
There's a book by James Adams about thinking. He says that a problem like
there is one trail from the bottom of a mountain to the top. A monk starts at
the top, walking down, and another monk starts at the same time, walking up
from the bottom. Will they meet? He says that question cannot be handled in
ANY way other than visualizing it. No words and no numbers will help a single
bit.
It's called Conceptual Blockbusting, and it's a really wonderful book. I've
given several copies away over the years.
Still in print after 25 years!
Here's a blurb:
Book Description
The best-selling guide to overcoming creative blocks and unleashing a torrent
of great ideas-updated for a new generation of problem solvers.
James Adams's unique approach to generating ideas and solving problems has
captivated, inspired, and guided thousands of people from all walks of life.
Now, twenty-five years after its original publication, Conceptual Blockbusting
has never been more relevant, powerful, or fresh. Integrating insights from the
worlds of psychology, engineering, management, art, and philosophy, Adams
identifies the key blocks (perceptual, emotional, cultural, environmental,
intellectual, and expressive) that prevent us from realizing the full potential of
our fertile minds. Employing unconventional exercises and other interactive
elements, Adams shows individuals, teams, and organizations how to overcome these
blocks, embrace alternative ways of thinking about complex problems, and
celebrate the joy of creativity. With new examples and contemporary references,
Conceptual Blockbusting is guaranteed to introduce a new generation of readers to
a world of new possibilities. --This text refers to the Paperback edition.
Synopsis
Identifies the perceptual, environmental, emotional, and intellectual blocks
that obstruct people from correctly perceiving problems and conceiving their
solutions and provides games and exercises that limber up mental muscles.
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/6/03 9:06:55 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
This list is a plethera of information and I just knew you all wouldn't think
I was nuts. I mean I am a little out there most of the time, but when it
comes to thought processes, I knew I couldn't be the only one.
Thanx again!!!
Rhonda
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
>Thanks so much Sandra!!!
> There's a book by James Adams about thinking. He says that a problem like
> there is one trail from the bottom of a mountain to the top. A monk starts
> at
> the top, walking down, and another monk starts at the same time, walking up
> from the bottom. Will they meet? He says that question cannot be handled
> in
> ANY way other than visualizing it. No words and no numbers will help a
> single
> bit.
>
> It's called Conceptual Blockbusting, and it's a really wonderful book. I've
>
> given several copies away over the years.
>
> Still in print after 25 years!
>
>
This list is a plethera of information and I just knew you all wouldn't think
I was nuts. I mean I am a little out there most of the time, but when it
comes to thought processes, I knew I couldn't be the only one.
Thanx again!!!
Rhonda
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robyn Coburn
This is available used from Amazon sellers from as little as 40 cents
plus about $4 shipping.
Robyn Coburn
<<<There's a book by James Adams about thinking...
It's called Conceptual Blockbusting, and it's a really wonderful
book.>>>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
plus about $4 shipping.
Robyn Coburn
<<<There's a book by James Adams about thinking...
It's called Conceptual Blockbusting, and it's a really wonderful
book.>>>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
zenmomma2kids
>> Oh I remember this so well in school. I have never been able toshow my work in math. It always annoyed me and the more the teacher
insisted the harder it was for me to understand. I was accused of
looking at the answers in the back of the book and I was horrified at
been told to my face I was a cheater. It had never occured to me to
look up the answer, for I understood the question and was able to
answer it just couldn't show how I got there.>>
My dad has told me similar stories from his school experiences. He
graduated high school in the 30's and fully supports and understands
our unschooling. He went on to become an electrical engineer,
learning on the job as he went along.
Life is good.
~Mary
Heidi
Hi ~Mary
You asked in SOME post, SOME where, whether your logic fit in with
Holt. I clicked around some, trying to figure out where you were
coming from in the math/calculator thread. Couldn't find what you had
said.
LOLAnyway, I think getting into the problem IS the way to think well,
whether math probs or otherwise. Not fishing around for the right
answer, but seeing oneself IN it, and figuring it out from there. If
you posted about that, then yeah, you were following Holt logic!
L I find Yahoo lists difficult to follow a thread. In fact! I
went "up thread" on a topic today, and ended up reading something
posted in the year 2000.!!!
HeidiC(razy)
You asked in SOME post, SOME where, whether your logic fit in with
Holt. I clicked around some, trying to figure out where you were
coming from in the math/calculator thread. Couldn't find what you had
said.
LOLAnyway, I think getting into the problem IS the way to think well,
whether math probs or otherwise. Not fishing around for the right
answer, but seeing oneself IN it, and figuring it out from there. If
you posted about that, then yeah, you were following Holt logic!
L I find Yahoo lists difficult to follow a thread. In fact! I
went "up thread" on a topic today, and ended up reading something
posted in the year 2000.!!!
HeidiC(razy)
Olga
Isn't it interesting how certain jobs were taught as apprenticeships
and through experience years ago and now require a degree. My BIL is
an engineer. He started through such programs in Scotland and got a
job with Motorola in the U.S. and worked his way up to a relatively
high management position. They bugged him about going back and
getting a degree. Here is a guy good enough to promote in the
system, can do the work, but needs a paper at this point. How
stupid. We have lost sight of what the degree is for. The money
floating around in the Universities for all these degrees these days
is watering down the entire job field. There are a small group of
people making a helluva lot of money by convincing the world a degree
is more valuable than the person. Sorry about the long soap box <g>.
Olga :)
--- In [email protected], "zenmomma2kids"
<zenmomma@h...> wrote:
and through experience years ago and now require a degree. My BIL is
an engineer. He started through such programs in Scotland and got a
job with Motorola in the U.S. and worked his way up to a relatively
high management position. They bugged him about going back and
getting a degree. Here is a guy good enough to promote in the
system, can do the work, but needs a paper at this point. How
stupid. We have lost sight of what the degree is for. The money
floating around in the Universities for all these degrees these days
is watering down the entire job field. There are a small group of
people making a helluva lot of money by convincing the world a degree
is more valuable than the person. Sorry about the long soap box <g>.
Olga :)
--- In [email protected], "zenmomma2kids"
<zenmomma@h...> wrote:
> My dad has told me similar stories from his school experiences. Heunderstands
> graduated high school in the 30's and fully supports and
> our unschooling. He went on to become an electrical engineer,
> learning on the job as he went along.
>
> Life is good.
> ~Mary
unolist
--- In [email protected], "Olga" <britcontoo@a...>
wrote:
became a lawyer just by reading law, and working his way into it.
Ang
wrote:
> Isn't it interesting how certain jobs were taught asapprenticeships
> and through experience years ago and now require a degree.John Holt talks about this in Teach Your Own, and about how Lincoln
became a lawyer just by reading law, and working his way into it.
Ang