Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Praising Our Kids
Christina M Ledford
> In a message dated 6/4/03 12:26:48 PM Pacific Daylight Time,I didn't catch the beginning of this discussion, but I think I'm
> torywalk@... writes:
>
> << Throughout her entire
> life, some times when I hug her, I say things like, "You're the
> best!" How much has this been me setting her up for it? I have
> been
> reading -Punished by Rewards- and now that I think of it, that
> makes
> sense. So how do I undo it???????????
understanding what it's about. I plan on picking up the book, but I just
want to say that I have two grown daughters whom I lavished praise on
when they were kids, but I was careful to not go to extremes since I
didn't want to raise megalomaniacs. I think it's tough to go to
extremes, however, without some "caution" flag popping up in our heads.
By that I mean that, to me, extreme would be something like, "You're
better than everyone else...prettier...smarter...", etc.; fill in the
superlative. And I think praise should be treated like candy -- dole out
bits at a time and it's not so bad for you. As with everything else in
life, I suppose, moderation seems to be the key. I do believe that a
strong sense of self, of pride in one's accomplishments, should be
intrinsically motivated. I think it's OK to say to a child, "You can be
proud of yourself." Even if we slip <OMG!> and say, "I'm proud of you,"
in the long-run it's less harmful than, oh, let's say, "You can't do
anything right!" or, "I wish you were never born.!" Children are
resilient; they overcome the most dreadful things. The majority are
smart enough when they reach adulthood to realize that, no matter how
"good" they are, the world is not at their beckoned call. They sort it
all out.
I listened to some advice I picked up somewhere when the kids were small
which resulted in my saying things such as, "I think I'll put that
picture on the fridge", rather than, "What a great picture you drew."
It's not that there's really anything wrong with the latter statement;
it's just that, with the first, the child can deduce for him/herself
that, "Hey, she likes what I drew." This way, the child is "rewarded"
intrinsically although the praise was generated extrinsically.
Bottom line: I don't think there's any danger from this group to our
children's well-being. We love them; they forgive us...
Christina
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[email protected]
christina989@... writes:
<< "I think I'll put that
picture on the fridge", rather than, "What a great picture you drew."
It's not that there's really anything wrong with the latter statement;
it's just that, with the first, the child can deduce for him/herself
that, "Hey, she likes what I drew." This way, the child is "rewarded"
intrinsically although the praise was generated extrinsically. >>
This is interesting. I've never worried about reward or praise, whether I
was giving him too much or too little.
About art, for example, I would tell him, *I* really like that because...and
then he would tell me what he did or didn't like about it, and that would
lead to good convos about composition, color, whatever. I think that really
helped him develop his own style, and realizing that there was stuff in there that
he didn't like, and sometimes I found value in it, that he didn't see. He'd
still not like it and do something else next time that gave him satisfaction,
but still understand that there was nothing "wrong" with it, just not quite
right to him.
I guess I never thought that there would be intrinisic value to something
because I, the Mom, liked it. I really don't think that's an issue, am I being
naive? I really don't think that he's under the impression that my opinion is
more important than his, especially if it's his artwork!
~Aimee
<< "I think I'll put that
picture on the fridge", rather than, "What a great picture you drew."
It's not that there's really anything wrong with the latter statement;
it's just that, with the first, the child can deduce for him/herself
that, "Hey, she likes what I drew." This way, the child is "rewarded"
intrinsically although the praise was generated extrinsically. >>
This is interesting. I've never worried about reward or praise, whether I
was giving him too much or too little.
About art, for example, I would tell him, *I* really like that because...and
then he would tell me what he did or didn't like about it, and that would
lead to good convos about composition, color, whatever. I think that really
helped him develop his own style, and realizing that there was stuff in there that
he didn't like, and sometimes I found value in it, that he didn't see. He'd
still not like it and do something else next time that gave him satisfaction,
but still understand that there was nothing "wrong" with it, just not quite
right to him.
I guess I never thought that there would be intrinisic value to something
because I, the Mom, liked it. I really don't think that's an issue, am I being
naive? I really don't think that he's under the impression that my opinion is
more important than his, especially if it's his artwork!
~Aimee
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/4/03 6:11:11 PM, christina989@... writes:
<< Bottom line: I don't think there's any danger from this group to our
children's well-being. We love them; they forgive us... >>
That sounds a little like saying "whatever we do is okay, so don't bother to
worry about what's better or best,"
<<Children are
resilient; they overcome the most dreadful things. The majority are
smart enough when they reach adulthood to realize that, no matter how
"good" they are, the world is not at their beckoned call. >>
Unschooling doesn't quite work that way. There are simple ways to avoid the
most dreadful things, no matter how traditional and commonplace dreadful
things may be in the greater society.
While the world is not at my children's beck and call, it IS as much their
world as anyone's.
<< And I think praise should be treated like candy -- dole out
bits at a time and it's not so bad for you. As with everything else in
life, I suppose, moderation seems to be the key. >>
You're new to this list, aren't you? <g>
If you dole it out bits at a time, it's not so good for you.
If you let the child decide how much she wants or needs (of candy, attention,
time, praise) you will probably find they choose a much smaller amount than
dire predictions would have named.
Moderation isn't as useful a key as respect and freedom are, and
compassionate honesty and parental mindfulness go faster and farther than rules and
moderation ever could.
Sandra
<< Bottom line: I don't think there's any danger from this group to our
children's well-being. We love them; they forgive us... >>
That sounds a little like saying "whatever we do is okay, so don't bother to
worry about what's better or best,"
<<Children are
resilient; they overcome the most dreadful things. The majority are
smart enough when they reach adulthood to realize that, no matter how
"good" they are, the world is not at their beckoned call. >>
Unschooling doesn't quite work that way. There are simple ways to avoid the
most dreadful things, no matter how traditional and commonplace dreadful
things may be in the greater society.
While the world is not at my children's beck and call, it IS as much their
world as anyone's.
<< And I think praise should be treated like candy -- dole out
bits at a time and it's not so bad for you. As with everything else in
life, I suppose, moderation seems to be the key. >>
You're new to this list, aren't you? <g>
If you dole it out bits at a time, it's not so good for you.
If you let the child decide how much she wants or needs (of candy, attention,
time, praise) you will probably find they choose a much smaller amount than
dire predictions would have named.
Moderation isn't as useful a key as respect and freedom are, and
compassionate honesty and parental mindfulness go faster and farther than rules and
moderation ever could.
Sandra
Julie Bogart
--- In [email protected],
SandraDodd@a... wrote:
Julie B
SandraDodd@a... wrote:
>and
> Moderation isn't as useful a key as respect and freedom are,
> compassionate honesty and parental mindfulness go fasterand farther than rules and
> moderation ever could.That's quotable. Posting this to my desktop.
Julie B
[email protected]
> In a message dated 6/4/03 12:26:48 PM Pacific Daylight Time,This post made me smile. Growing up I was an only child until I was nearly 9.
> >torywalk@... writes:
> >
> ><< Throughout her entire
> > life, some times when I hug her, I say things like, "You're the
> > best!" How much has this been me setting her up for it? I have
> >been
> > reading -Punished by Rewards- and now that I think of it, that
> >makes
> > sense. So how do I undo it???????????
>
>
My father nicknamed me "Best" so long ago, I don't recall not having the
name. It's one of those parent-child nicknames you really don't want outsiders to
know about, because I was always questioned as to what exactly it was that I
was the "Best" at. I always answered the same thing every time. "I am the best
at trying to do the best I can in everything I do." I remember asking my daddy
why he called me that and he said, "you are the Bestest in the West and never
let anyone make you think less of yourself."
At this point in my life I have severed my relationship with my father for
way too many reasons than any of you want to hear about, but I have to admit
that reading that post brought tears to my eyes. It reminded me of a simpler time
when my father was just daddy, not the pathetic human he became over the last
33 years.
I don't think him nicknaming me that had any negative reprecussions, in fact
I think it instilled in me at an early age to think of myself as being able to
try my best without regard for failure or achievement. For it would never
matter whether the rest of the world thought I was the "Best", but my parents
did.
Rhonda
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Christina M Ledford
On Wed, 4 Jun 2003 20:54:06 EDT SandraDodd@... writes:
much about how our children will turn out IF we're doing the very best we
can for them?
there are children in the world (I know from counseling families of
abused/neglected children) who are not fortunate enough to "avoid the
most dreadful things." Sometimes we have to look at things on a relative
scale in order to count our blessings.
to) will in part serve as a forum for the expression of opinions,
thoughts and ideas and that, whether or not anyone agrees, there is
agreement about welcoming and respecting others' points of view.
planet tells me otherwise on this point.
Thank you,
Christina
> That sounds a little like saying "whatever we do is okay, so don'tCertainly not! But why must we question every move we make and worry so
> bother to
> worry about what's better or best,"
much about how our children will turn out IF we're doing the very best we
can for them?
>Yes, I agree to a point. My intention here was simply to point out that
> Unschooling doesn't quite work that way. There are simple ways to
> avoid the
> most dreadful things, no matter how traditional and commonplace
> dreadful
> things may be in the greater society.
there are children in the world (I know from counseling families of
abused/neglected children) who are not fortunate enough to "avoid the
most dreadful things." Sometimes we have to look at things on a relative
scale in order to count our blessings.
>Yes, and I'm hopeful that this list (as is the case with others I belong
> You're new to this list, aren't you? <g>
>
to) will in part serve as a forum for the expression of opinions,
thoughts and ideas and that, whether or not anyone agrees, there is
agreement about welcoming and respecting others' points of view.
> If you dole it out bits at a time, it's not so good for you.respect that; however, my half a century's experience on this marvelous
> If you let the child decide how much she wants or needs (of candy,
> attention,
> time, praise) you will probably find they choose a much smaller
> amount than
> dire predictions would have named.
>
> You are obviously a woman who is deeply concerned about children, and I
planet tells me otherwise on this point.
Thank you,
Christina
>>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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Christina M Ledford
On Thu, 5 Jun 2003 00:19:54 EDT RJHill241@... writes:
validate my position that kids grow up to "work it out." Thanks for
sharing a piece of your life.
Christina
>You sound like a courageous woman, Rhonda, and what you've said seems to
>
> >
> > I don't think him nicknaming me that had any negative reprecussions,
> in fact
> I think it instilled in me at an early age to think of myself as
> being able to
> try my best without regard for failure or achievement. For it would
> never
> matter whether the rest of the world thought I was the "Best", but
> my parents
> did.
>
> Rhonda
validate my position that kids grow up to "work it out." Thanks for
sharing a piece of your life.
Christina
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
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>
Kelli Traaseth
> That sounds a little like saying "whatever we do is okay, so don't**Certainly not! But why must we question every move we make and worry so
> bother to
> worry about what's better or best,"
much about how our children will turn out IF we're doing the very best we
can for them? **
So settle?????
I suppose I can see saying "they did the very best they could do" if I were looking back at parents years ago. I know with people healing from past dysfunctional relationships that this is big. But for me to say it about myself right now?? What about parenting **better**. If I would have said, "Oh, I'm doing my best" and kept my children in school, where would they be now??? Surely not in the wonderful, happy, content life that we are at since unschooling.
I'm sorry, but your responses are too status quo for me. I can find that type of thinking anywhere.
**Yes, and I'm hopeful that this list (as is the case with others I belong
to) will in part serve as a forum for the expression of opinions,
thoughts and ideas and that, whether or not anyone agrees, there is
agreement about welcoming and respecting others' points of view.**
Should we welcome and respect others' points of view even if they come into conflict with the idealogies of what we are discussing? We are discussing Unschooling here. Have you read past posts on this list? Have you read at unschooling.com?
**You are obviously a woman who is deeply concerned about children, and I
respect that; however, my half a century's experience on this marvelous
planet tells me otherwise on this point.**
And you've been unschooling how long?
Kelli~
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/5/03 6:48:55 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
tktraas@... writes:
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
tktraas@... writes:
> Should we welcome and respect others' points of view even if they come intoOuch.
> conflict with the idealogies of what we are discussing?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/5/03 8:14:53 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
treegoddess@... writes:
response above was written to a woman who was discussing her own relationship
with her own child. I am one who will say to my children, "I'm proud of you"
when I am proud of them. Unschooling is child-directed learning. It is not a
"method" of parenting. I would never consider overriding a "heart" response
to my child with something that I *should* say in order to somehow keep them
from becoming a manipulator. Who would the manipulator be then? I wrote "ouch"
because the woman's parenting was being called into question by someone who I
am most sure doesn't personally know the family. That's all. ~Kris
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
treegoddess@... writes:
> >>[Should we welcome and respect others' points of view even if they comeI totally understand and respect that this list is for unschooling, but the
> into
> >>
> ><Ouch.>
> >
>
> I don't see that as being an "ouch". The purpose of THIS group is to
> discuss unschooling.... not "well this works
> for me". :) That's not conducive to the list and it's very
> confusing for folks that are just starting on their path.
>
response above was written to a woman who was discussing her own relationship
with her own child. I am one who will say to my children, "I'm proud of you"
when I am proud of them. Unschooling is child-directed learning. It is not a
"method" of parenting. I would never consider overriding a "heart" response
to my child with something that I *should* say in order to somehow keep them
from becoming a manipulator. Who would the manipulator be then? I wrote "ouch"
because the woman's parenting was being called into question by someone who I
am most sure doesn't personally know the family. That's all. ~Kris
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/5/03 8:38:35 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
treegoddess@... writes:
So settle?????
I suppose I can see saying "they did the very best they could do" if I were
looking back at parents years ago. I know with people healing from past
dysfunctional relationships that this is big. But for me to say it about myself
right now?? What about parenting **better**. If I would have said, "Oh,
I'm doing my best" and kept my children in school, where would they be
now??? Surely not in the wonderful, happy, content life that we are at since
unschooling.
I'm sorry, but your responses are too status quo for me. I can find that
type of thinking anywhere.
***************************
Well, that's what it looked like to me. Sorry if I misunderstood. ~Kris
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
treegoddess@... writes:
> I'm pretty sure that nobody was calling anyone's parenting "into question".*********************
>
So settle?????
I suppose I can see saying "they did the very best they could do" if I were
looking back at parents years ago. I know with people healing from past
dysfunctional relationships that this is big. But for me to say it about myself
right now?? What about parenting **better**. If I would have said, "Oh,
I'm doing my best" and kept my children in school, where would they be
now??? Surely not in the wonderful, happy, content life that we are at since
unschooling.
I'm sorry, but your responses are too status quo for me. I can find that
type of thinking anywhere.
***************************
Well, that's what it looked like to me. Sorry if I misunderstood. ~Kris
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kelli Traaseth
I guess what I was trying to call into question was whether or not it is OK to say "I'm doing the best I can do".
In regards to my children, I don't want to say that. I know when I make mistakes with my children, I don't want have that in my mind because I want to improve on it.
I guess there are "heart" responses that I do want to suppress, like laying guilt or shame on my kids. These are easy things to say because it was the way I was raised. I am now learning not to do that. But I don't think that change would have come about if I had just said, "I'm doing the best I can do".
We might be talking about totally different things.
When I started unschooling, some parenting practices didn't quite jive in *my* mind. I needed to change my thinking and the way I related to my kids. As I did that, unschooling really started to make sense to me.
Kelli~
In regards to my children, I don't want to say that. I know when I make mistakes with my children, I don't want have that in my mind because I want to improve on it.
I guess there are "heart" responses that I do want to suppress, like laying guilt or shame on my kids. These are easy things to say because it was the way I was raised. I am now learning not to do that. But I don't think that change would have come about if I had just said, "I'm doing the best I can do".
We might be talking about totally different things.
When I started unschooling, some parenting practices didn't quite jive in *my* mind. I needed to change my thinking and the way I related to my kids. As I did that, unschooling really started to make sense to me.
Kelli~
----- Original Message -----
From: Mattydill@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2003 7:46 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Praising Our Kids
In a message dated 6/5/03 8:38:35 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
treegoddess@... writes:
> I'm pretty sure that nobody was calling anyone's parenting "into question".
>
*********************
So settle?????
I suppose I can see saying "they did the very best they could do" if I were
looking back at parents years ago. I know with people healing from past
dysfunctional relationships that this is big. But for me to say it about myself
right now?? What about parenting **better**. If I would have said, "Oh,
I'm doing my best" and kept my children in school, where would they be
now??? Surely not in the wonderful, happy, content life that we are at since
unschooling.
I'm sorry, but your responses are too status quo for me. I can find that
type of thinking anywhere.
***************************
Well, that's what it looked like to me. Sorry if I misunderstood. ~Kris
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kelli Traaseth
As I was reading through my post I realized I wanted to comment on something else too.
By "heart" response, I'm taking that as, your "gut" response or first response.
Maybe you're meaning something else.
Kelli~
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
By "heart" response, I'm taking that as, your "gut" response or first response.
Maybe you're meaning something else.
Kelli~
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
<< **Certainly not! But why must we question every move we make and worry so
much about how our children will turn out IF we're doing the very best we
can for them? **
the very best we can.
Sandra
much about how our children will turn out IF we're doing the very best we
can for them? **
>>Because if we do NOT question every move we make, we can't possibly be doing
the very best we can.
Sandra
Christina M Ledford
On Thu, 5 Jun 2003 10:36:40 EDT SandraDodd@... writes:
Because if we do NOT question every move we make, we can't possibly be
doing
the very best we can.
Sandra
OK, Obviously all I've been saying needs clarification, since I didn't
expect such hostility. Yes, I am new to homeschooling, even newer to
unschooling, but I'm not new to parenting. My two grown daughters, who
were schooled in public schools, were classic underachievers, yet I feel
I did the "very best" I could for them given what I knew and had to work
with at the time. While they are still struggling with career choices,
all in all, they are well-adjusted, confident young women who are also
parents. They are also single parents. If I say that they are doing the
"very best they can," I mean that, given the enormity of their
responsibilities, it can't be "better" at the moment even though "better"
is the ideal for my grandkids and for all kids.
When I mention not worrying about every move we make, I am talking about
extreme positions and I'm speaking literally, such as it's impossible to
monitor everything that comes out of our mouths, and how can we expect
"perfection" in an imperfect world? When I initially responded to
someone's mentioning the book about punishing kids through rewards, I
never said I agreed that we in fact do punish our kids everytime we
reward them. I've said, "I'm proud of you" to my kids countless times.
It's just that every so often I tell them they can be proud of
themselves. What's the problem here?
Maybe I'm guilty of having old-fashioned notions about parenting, but I
think that the number one priority should be to show our kids love and to
model loving relationships with our partners, families, etc. Is this all
I think we have to do and let the pieces fall where they may? Absolutely
not. I think we have to have a plan, think before we speak when
possible, model the behaviors we want to instill in our kids. My point
in all of this is only to say that we will make mistakes, but even that
teaches our children, in my opinion, lessons about fallibility and human
vulnerabilites and says, "Hey, it's okay to screw up sometimes!" What is
it we model for our kids when we react to others' points of view -- not
with tolerance -- but with such blatant hostility??
Thank you,
Christina
Because if we do NOT question every move we make, we can't possibly be
doing
the very best we can.
Sandra
OK, Obviously all I've been saying needs clarification, since I didn't
expect such hostility. Yes, I am new to homeschooling, even newer to
unschooling, but I'm not new to parenting. My two grown daughters, who
were schooled in public schools, were classic underachievers, yet I feel
I did the "very best" I could for them given what I knew and had to work
with at the time. While they are still struggling with career choices,
all in all, they are well-adjusted, confident young women who are also
parents. They are also single parents. If I say that they are doing the
"very best they can," I mean that, given the enormity of their
responsibilities, it can't be "better" at the moment even though "better"
is the ideal for my grandkids and for all kids.
When I mention not worrying about every move we make, I am talking about
extreme positions and I'm speaking literally, such as it's impossible to
monitor everything that comes out of our mouths, and how can we expect
"perfection" in an imperfect world? When I initially responded to
someone's mentioning the book about punishing kids through rewards, I
never said I agreed that we in fact do punish our kids everytime we
reward them. I've said, "I'm proud of you" to my kids countless times.
It's just that every so often I tell them they can be proud of
themselves. What's the problem here?
Maybe I'm guilty of having old-fashioned notions about parenting, but I
think that the number one priority should be to show our kids love and to
model loving relationships with our partners, families, etc. Is this all
I think we have to do and let the pieces fall where they may? Absolutely
not. I think we have to have a plan, think before we speak when
possible, model the behaviors we want to instill in our kids. My point
in all of this is only to say that we will make mistakes, but even that
teaches our children, in my opinion, lessons about fallibility and human
vulnerabilites and says, "Hey, it's okay to screw up sometimes!" What is
it we model for our kids when we react to others' points of view -- not
with tolerance -- but with such blatant hostility??
Thank you,
Christina
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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> address an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
Heidi Wordhouse-Dykema
> > If you let the child decide how much she wants or needs (of candy,...So, if some of the rest of us unschooling parents were to band together
> > attention,
> > time, praise) you will probably find they choose a much smaller
> > amount than
> > dire predictions would have named.
> >
> > You are obviously a woman who is deeply concerned about children, and I
>respect that; however, my half a century's experience on this marvelous
>planet tells me otherwise on this point.
our 'centuries' of experience and tell *you* otherwise, would you listen
and begin to contemplate if there might be another way? We've lived it,
we've struggled with it (in the past) and we've moved beyond it.
We're telling you 'otherwise'...
I'll ask if some of the other 'centurions' can handle details for you
because I've got to see a man about a trailer and a water tank.
Anyone care to throw out some details on how limitations affected or didn't
affect your kids/self/family/etc.?
HeidiWD
"Self-reliance is the antidote to institutional stupidity." JTGatto,
Monarch Notes guide to One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest.
[email protected]
-=- Yes, I am new to homeschooling, even newer to
unschooling, but I'm not new to parenting. -=-
It really is an unschooling discussion, and that makes some pretty profound
differences.
Reading at www.unschooling.com would be a good idea for a more rounded
picture. The topics stay there, whereas these flow and change and get silly.
-=- When I mention not worrying about every move we make, I am talking about
extreme positions and I'm speaking literally, such as it's impossible to
monitor everything that comes out of our mouths, and how can we expect
"perfection" in an imperfect world? -=-
We can strive for "better," and "better" is by definition and essence better.
-=- What is it we model for our kids when we react to others' points of
view -- not
with tolerance -- but with such blatant hostility?? -=-
You used "hostility" twice in that post, but it's not hostile to defend a
belief.
My children aren't on this list. We're discussing unschooling here with
people who are here of their own free will and can choose whether to post or not.
to) will in part serve as a forum for the expression of opinions,
thoughts and ideas and that, whether or not anyone agrees, there is
agreement about welcoming and respecting others' points of view.>>
Did you read the intro at yahoogroups, and did you get an
introductory/welcome letter?
Probably most of us belong to other lists. They all have their own purposes
and flavors, tones and rules. If you posted without reading for very long,
and your post was recommending wht could be potentially a step back for new
unschoolers, it wasn't in keeping with the purpose of the list. That's no big
deal. But it's not hostility that people said the advice was too mainstream or
lacked an awareness of the respect for kids' choices and sensitivities that
unschoolers so often come to care about.
Sandra
unschooling, but I'm not new to parenting. -=-
It really is an unschooling discussion, and that makes some pretty profound
differences.
Reading at www.unschooling.com would be a good idea for a more rounded
picture. The topics stay there, whereas these flow and change and get silly.
-=- When I mention not worrying about every move we make, I am talking about
extreme positions and I'm speaking literally, such as it's impossible to
monitor everything that comes out of our mouths, and how can we expect
"perfection" in an imperfect world? -=-
We can strive for "better," and "better" is by definition and essence better.
-=- What is it we model for our kids when we react to others' points of
view -- not
with tolerance -- but with such blatant hostility?? -=-
You used "hostility" twice in that post, but it's not hostile to defend a
belief.
My children aren't on this list. We're discussing unschooling here with
people who are here of their own free will and can choose whether to post or not.
> You're new to this list, aren't you? <g><<Yes, and I'm hopeful that this list (as is the case with others I belong
>
to) will in part serve as a forum for the expression of opinions,
thoughts and ideas and that, whether or not anyone agrees, there is
agreement about welcoming and respecting others' points of view.>>
Did you read the intro at yahoogroups, and did you get an
introductory/welcome letter?
Probably most of us belong to other lists. They all have their own purposes
and flavors, tones and rules. If you posted without reading for very long,
and your post was recommending wht could be potentially a step back for new
unschoolers, it wasn't in keeping with the purpose of the list. That's no big
deal. But it's not hostility that people said the advice was too mainstream or
lacked an awareness of the respect for kids' choices and sensitivities that
unschoolers so often come to care about.
Sandra
Heidi Wordhouse-Dykema
>OK, Obviously all I've been saying needs clarification, since I didn'tChristina honey,
>expect such hostility. Yes, I am new to homeschooling, even newer to
>unschooling...(snipped)
What Sandra and I and whomever else wrote wasn't meant to be hostile. It
was frank, sure. It was calling societally-traditional thought patterns on
their lack of effectiveness, absolutely. It was challenging what seem to
be your assumptions, definitely.
You're really new here and that's okay, but it has it's pitfalls, one of
which is discovering that there's still something to learn about
unschooling and its effect on other areas of parenting and 'control'
issues. What I'd recommend for a while is settling back to read so you get
the tenor of the place, maybe hit the archives for subjects that interest
you and wait to post until you won't get offended by someone challenging
what you think. This is also not said in a hostile manner. ...think of us
as kindly, perhaps crotchety aunties who're not afraid to speak up.
Welcome to the pond and prepare to get wet!
HeidiWD
>"Self-reliance is the antidote to institutional stupidity." JTGatto,
Monarch Notes guide to One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest.
Christina M Ledford
Well, I guess I took a wrong turn when I subscribed to this list. I feel
as though I'm in shark-infested waters. I never thought unschooling
meant blatant permissiveness. Kids are growing up to face a world that
isnt' always going to treat them with the same "kindness" as their
parents. How are they supposed to learn to deal if they've grown up to
expect the same fairness their loving parents extended to them, the same
degree of freedom, etc. We don't live in a Utopian society. Employers
are not going to be as gentle to our kids as we've been to them. Reality
is reality. Idealism is another thing.
Christina
On Thu, 05 Jun 2003 08:37:34 -0400 "treegoddess@..."
<treegoddess@...> writes:
as though I'm in shark-infested waters. I never thought unschooling
meant blatant permissiveness. Kids are growing up to face a world that
isnt' always going to treat them with the same "kindness" as their
parents. How are they supposed to learn to deal if they've grown up to
expect the same fairness their loving parents extended to them, the same
degree of freedom, etc. We don't live in a Utopian society. Employers
are not going to be as gentle to our kids as we've been to them. Reality
is reality. Idealism is another thing.
Christina
On Thu, 05 Jun 2003 08:37:34 -0400 "treegoddess@..."
<treegoddess@...> writes:
> Mattydill@... wrote:
>
> >[I wrote "ouch" because the woman's parenting was being called into
> question by someone who I
> >am most sure doesn't personally know the family.]
> >
>
> I'm pretty sure that nobody was calling anyone's parenting "into
> question".
>
> TreeGoddess
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
> ~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line!
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> email the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or
> the list owner, Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
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> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
Pamela Sorooshian
On Thursday, June 5, 2003, at 06:43 AM, Kelli Traaseth wrote:
spectacular a parent we are - we certainly CAN do better.
On the other hand - it is too easy for some of us to beat ourselves up
over things that are done with - and so, looking back on things we can
no longer change, it doesn't hurt to remember that we DID do the best
we could manage at the time.
I had the best mom any kid could have. I'm pretty much the same kind of
mom. But, there were certainly things she could have done better and I
try to learn from remembering those times, but I still manage make my
own mistakes. When I look back, I remember that my mom was only 20
years old when she had me and I'm really really impressed with how good
"the best she could do" was. And - that's what I hope my kids will
think when they look back too - I hope they recognize that I did do
the best I could.
That said, I don't think it helps us "in the moment" to think that
we're doing 'the best we can." I think it helps us more to think, "I
can do better," because then we'll be able to envision "better" and, at
least make incremental changes that are better for our kids.
Anybody who doesn't think they could do better is just not taking a
hard enough look at themselves.
-pam
> I guess what I was trying to call into question was whether or not itBecause it implies that we can't do better and no matter HOW
> is OK to say "I'm doing the best I can do".
>
> In regards to my children, I don't want to say that.
spectacular a parent we are - we certainly CAN do better.
On the other hand - it is too easy for some of us to beat ourselves up
over things that are done with - and so, looking back on things we can
no longer change, it doesn't hurt to remember that we DID do the best
we could manage at the time.
I had the best mom any kid could have. I'm pretty much the same kind of
mom. But, there were certainly things she could have done better and I
try to learn from remembering those times, but I still manage make my
own mistakes. When I look back, I remember that my mom was only 20
years old when she had me and I'm really really impressed with how good
"the best she could do" was. And - that's what I hope my kids will
think when they look back too - I hope they recognize that I did do
the best I could.
That said, I don't think it helps us "in the moment" to think that
we're doing 'the best we can." I think it helps us more to think, "I
can do better," because then we'll be able to envision "better" and, at
least make incremental changes that are better for our kids.
Anybody who doesn't think they could do better is just not taking a
hard enough look at themselves.
-pam
Pamela Sorooshian
On Thursday, June 5, 2003, at 08:28 AM, Christina M Ledford wrote:
rewards/praise that really punishes them.
Genuine praise and congratulations and acknowledgment of achievement or
hard work - the same kind of response we'd have to a friend or a
husband, is different.
My oldest daughter went to kindergarten. I worked in the classroom.
During the first few days of school I was handed a roll of stickers -
little red dots - and told to wander around the room and stick on dot
on the child's nametag (a name card that was taped to their desk)
whenever I noticed a child was "on task." At the end of the day the kid
with the most dots would get a prize.
It is THIS kind of manipulation that is clearly counterproductive.
-pam
> When I initially responded toI think that it is the attempt to manipulate kids through
> someone's mentioning the book about punishing kids through rewards, I
> never said I agreed that we in fact do punish our kids everytime we
> reward them. I've said, "I'm proud of you" to my kids countless times.
> It's just that every so often I tell them they can be proud of
> themselves. What's the problem here?
rewards/praise that really punishes them.
Genuine praise and congratulations and acknowledgment of achievement or
hard work - the same kind of response we'd have to a friend or a
husband, is different.
My oldest daughter went to kindergarten. I worked in the classroom.
During the first few days of school I was handed a roll of stickers -
little red dots - and told to wander around the room and stick on dot
on the child's nametag (a name card that was taped to their desk)
whenever I noticed a child was "on task." At the end of the day the kid
with the most dots would get a prize.
It is THIS kind of manipulation that is clearly counterproductive.
-pam
Kelli Traaseth
----- Original Message -----
From: Pamela Sorooshian
**I had the best mom any kid could have. I'm pretty much the same kind of
mom. But, there were certainly things she could have done better and I
try to learn from remembering those times, but I still manage make my
own mistakes. When I look back, I remember that my mom was only 20
years old when she had me and I'm really really impressed with how good
"the best she could do" was. And - that's what I hope my kids will
think when they look back too - I hope they recognize that I did do
the best I could.
That said, I don't think it helps us "in the moment" to think that
we're doing 'the best we can." I think it helps us more to think, "I
can do better," because then we'll be able to envision "better" and, at
least make incremental changes that are better for our kids.**
Exactly Pam! That's what I was trying to say, but I don't think it came across right :(
Kelli~
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Mary
From: "Christina M Ledford" <christina989@...>
<<Well, I guess I took a wrong turn when I subscribed to this list. I feel
as though I'm in shark-infested waters. I never thought unschooling
meant blatant permissiveness. Kids are growing up to face a world that
isnt' always going to treat them with the same "kindness" as their
parents. How are they supposed to learn to deal if they've grown up to
expect the same fairness their loving parents extended to them, the same
degree of freedom, etc. We don't live in a Utopian society. Employers
are not going to be as gentle to our kids as we've been to them. Reality
is reality. Idealism is another thing.>>
Wow. So what are you saying? That we should be tough restrictive parents
just so our kids will "learn a lesson" for the real world?? Not to be kind
and respectful to our children because they will eventually run into others
that won't?
Do you honestly think that our children at a young age will be equipped the
same in their ability to handle things when they have to be out working? At
what age should we start to toughen them up? Sounds like that's what you
think. Say it isn't so!
Mary B
<<Well, I guess I took a wrong turn when I subscribed to this list. I feel
as though I'm in shark-infested waters. I never thought unschooling
meant blatant permissiveness. Kids are growing up to face a world that
isnt' always going to treat them with the same "kindness" as their
parents. How are they supposed to learn to deal if they've grown up to
expect the same fairness their loving parents extended to them, the same
degree of freedom, etc. We don't live in a Utopian society. Employers
are not going to be as gentle to our kids as we've been to them. Reality
is reality. Idealism is another thing.>>
Wow. So what are you saying? That we should be tough restrictive parents
just so our kids will "learn a lesson" for the real world?? Not to be kind
and respectful to our children because they will eventually run into others
that won't?
Do you honestly think that our children at a young age will be equipped the
same in their ability to handle things when they have to be out working? At
what age should we start to toughen them up? Sounds like that's what you
think. Say it isn't so!
Mary B
Christina M Ledford
On Thu, 05 Jun 2003 09:50:36 -0700 Heidi Wordhouse-Dykema
<heidi@...> writes:
parents passed along the message that I'm free to have these opinions and
to express them, and to speak my mind. I resent the suggestion that I'm
too mainstream -- if anything, I've been bucking the system all my life;
I'm used to being "odd man out", if you will. Here's something for you:
I'm also a vegetarian and an atheist. Now, I'm a homeschooler -- just
one more thing for my friends to look quizzically at me for. Look out!!!
Thanks,
Christina
<heidi@...> writes:
>rusted shut. I do, however, have my own opinions, thank you, because my
> >> ...So, if some of the rest of us unschooling parents were to band
> together
> our 'centuries' of experience and tell *you* otherwise, would you
> listen
> and begin to contemplate if there might be another way? We've lived
> it,
> we've struggled with it (in the past) and we've moved beyond it.
>
> We're telling you 'otherwise'...
> I'll ask if some of the other 'centurions' can handle details for
> you
> because I've got to see a man about a trailer and a water tank.
> Anyone care to throw out some details on how limitations affected or
> didn't
> affect your kids/self/family/etc.?
>
> HeidiWD
>
> I never said I couldn't learn a lot from you folks. My mind is not
parents passed along the message that I'm free to have these opinions and
to express them, and to speak my mind. I resent the suggestion that I'm
too mainstream -- if anything, I've been bucking the system all my life;
I'm used to being "odd man out", if you will. Here's something for you:
I'm also a vegetarian and an atheist. Now, I'm a homeschooler -- just
one more thing for my friends to look quizzically at me for. Look out!!!
Thanks,
Christina
> "Self-reliance is the antidote to institutional stupidity." JTGatto,
>
> Monarch Notes guide to One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest.
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
> ~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line!
> ~~~~
>
> If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please
> email the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or
> the list owner, Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or
> address an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/5/2003 4:02:09 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
christina989@... writes:
to those who have read, studied and lived it.
If I have "opinions" about things I don't know much about, I don't crowd into
the midst of a long-standing discussion and tell them what I think of what
they're talking about.
=\=Here's something for you:
I'm also a vegetarian and an atheist. -=-
This isn't a list to discuss those things, so it doesn't really matter.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
christina989@... writes:
> I do, however, have my own opinions, thank you, because myWe're talking about unschooling, though, and your opinions aren't yet equal
> parents passed along the message that I'm free to have these opinions and
> to express them, and to speak my mind.
to those who have read, studied and lived it.
If I have "opinions" about things I don't know much about, I don't crowd into
the midst of a long-standing discussion and tell them what I think of what
they're talking about.
=\=Here's something for you:
I'm also a vegetarian and an atheist. -=-
This isn't a list to discuss those things, so it doesn't really matter.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
moonstarshooter
> Well, I guess I took a wrong turn when I subscribed to this list.No, I just think you took a wrong turn when you didn't do as the
homepage and welcome letter said:
"We advise reading for a week or two before posting to get a "feel"
for the list and its members, since many listmembers love a lively
debate and questioning beliefs to their foundations."
Even though some of the threads lately have been pretty lighthearted,
this is a group of people with strong beliefs and convictions. That
is what I love about this group.
> I feelAgain, reading for a couple of weeks would have helped you see
> as though I'm in shark-infested waters. I never thought unschooling
> meant blatant permissiveness.
examples of the respectful parenting we talk about, not just a quick
judgement on your part as to what unschooling is. I struggle often
with the parenting side of unschooling. I can easily let go of
academics and trust my daughter. It is much harder to let go of
other parenting issues that I had been clinging to because I had
never heard of a better way. My whole vision of the type of
parenting supported here was kids running wild and walking all over
their parents. (Since that is all I have ever seen in families where
they don't spank, breastfeed until child weaning, etc.) I had never
seen examples of it done out of true respect for the child in an
EQUALS situation. It is not about lifting the child on a pedestal.
But it is also not about lording over a child. It is about living
life side by side with your child. (At least that is what I am
figuring out.)
> Kids are growing up to face a world thatup to
> isnt' always going to treat them with the same "kindness" as their
> parents. How are they supposed to learn to deal if they've grown
> expect the same fairness their loving parents extended to them, thesame
> degree of freedom, etc. We don't live in a Utopian society.Employers
> are not going to be as gentle to our kids as we've been to them.Yet somehow you seem to expect coddling from this group. If your
child has grown up feeling like they are a person worthy of respect,
chances are they will search out employers who ARE respectful (and
there ARE those out there) or they will be willing to put up with it
because they have followed their passion and the work is worth it to
them. Either way, THEY are in the drivers seat. They have been
raised to take responsibility for their own life.
Tory
Have A Nice Day!
I never thought unschooling
meant blatant permissiveness. <<<<
This isn't about blatant permissiveness though I can see how you would take it that way.
I've been on here a few months and I've found that after awhile (a good while), I see bits and pieces of information that make me understand that the parents on this list are anything BUT permissive. We are intricately involved with their kids to such a degree that permissiveness vs rules/consequences is not even really an issue.
They *do* provide guidance, advice, and a safety net for their kids.
The reason you are not seeing that right now is because you are new.
And there are others who are new too, that may not have posted.
If there is *anything* in your post that might be misunderstood by another new person here, it will get challenged.
The reason for that is to help people unschool, and by default, come to understand what "mindful parenting" is.
Kristen
meant blatant permissiveness. <<<<
This isn't about blatant permissiveness though I can see how you would take it that way.
I've been on here a few months and I've found that after awhile (a good while), I see bits and pieces of information that make me understand that the parents on this list are anything BUT permissive. We are intricately involved with their kids to such a degree that permissiveness vs rules/consequences is not even really an issue.
They *do* provide guidance, advice, and a safety net for their kids.
The reason you are not seeing that right now is because you are new.
And there are others who are new too, that may not have posted.
If there is *anything* in your post that might be misunderstood by another new person here, it will get challenged.
The reason for that is to help people unschool, and by default, come to understand what "mindful parenting" is.
Kristen
----- Original Message -----
From: Christina M Ledford
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2003 1:49 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Praising Our Kids
Well, I guess I took a wrong turn when I subscribed to this list. I feel
as though I'm in shark-infested waters. I never thought unschooling
meant blatant permissiveness. Kids are growing up to face a world that
isnt' always going to treat them with the same "kindness" as their
parents. How are they supposed to learn to deal if they've grown up to
expect the same fairness their loving parents extended to them, the same
degree of freedom, etc. We don't live in a Utopian society. Employers
are not going to be as gentle to our kids as we've been to them. Reality
is reality. Idealism is another thing.
Christina
On Thu, 05 Jun 2003 08:37:34 -0400 "treegoddess@..."
<treegoddess@...> writes:
> Mattydill@... wrote:
>
> >[I wrote "ouch" because the woman's parenting was being called into
> question by someone who I
> >am most sure doesn't personally know the family.]
> >
>
> I'm pretty sure that nobody was calling anyone's parenting "into
> question".
>
> TreeGoddess
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
> ~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line!
> ~~~~
>
> If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please
> email the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or
> the list owner, Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or
> address an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list owner, Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address an email to:
[email protected]
Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Have A Nice Day!
If your
child has grown up feeling like they are a person worthy of respect,
chances are they will search out employers who ARE respectful (and
there ARE those out there) or they will be willing to put up with it
because they have followed their passion and the work is worth it to
them. Either way, THEY are in the drivers seat. They have been
raised to take responsibility for their own life.
BRAVO!
WHY should we put our kids in disrespectful situations just to "prepare them" to "take it" from other disrespectful people.
Thats how *I* was raised, and you know what? It took until I am almost 40 to realize that I don't *have* to put up with that garbage!
It is so liberating to be free of that and know that you *don't* have to put up with it from *anyone*.
When we all *expect* the best for ourselves, we will also treat others with the same respect. When that happens, the world will be a MUCH better place!
Kristen
child has grown up feeling like they are a person worthy of respect,
chances are they will search out employers who ARE respectful (and
there ARE those out there) or they will be willing to put up with it
because they have followed their passion and the work is worth it to
them. Either way, THEY are in the drivers seat. They have been
raised to take responsibility for their own life.
BRAVO!
WHY should we put our kids in disrespectful situations just to "prepare them" to "take it" from other disrespectful people.
Thats how *I* was raised, and you know what? It took until I am almost 40 to realize that I don't *have* to put up with that garbage!
It is so liberating to be free of that and know that you *don't* have to put up with it from *anyone*.
When we all *expect* the best for ourselves, we will also treat others with the same respect. When that happens, the world will be a MUCH better place!
Kristen
----- Original Message -----
From: moonstarshooter
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2003 6:28 PM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Praising Our Kids
> Well, I guess I took a wrong turn when I subscribed to this list.
No, I just think you took a wrong turn when you didn't do as the
homepage and welcome letter said:
"We advise reading for a week or two before posting to get a "feel"
for the list and its members, since many listmembers love a lively
debate and questioning beliefs to their foundations."
Even though some of the threads lately have been pretty lighthearted,
this is a group of people with strong beliefs and convictions. That
is what I love about this group.
> I feel
> as though I'm in shark-infested waters. I never thought unschooling
> meant blatant permissiveness.
Again, reading for a couple of weeks would have helped you see
examples of the respectful parenting we talk about, not just a quick
judgement on your part as to what unschooling is. I struggle often
with the parenting side of unschooling. I can easily let go of
academics and trust my daughter. It is much harder to let go of
other parenting issues that I had been clinging to because I had
never heard of a better way. My whole vision of the type of
parenting supported here was kids running wild and walking all over
their parents. (Since that is all I have ever seen in families where
they don't spank, breastfeed until child weaning, etc.) I had never
seen examples of it done out of true respect for the child in an
EQUALS situation. It is not about lifting the child on a pedestal.
But it is also not about lording over a child. It is about living
life side by side with your child. (At least that is what I am
figuring out.)
> Kids are growing up to face a world that
> isnt' always going to treat them with the same "kindness" as their
> parents. How are they supposed to learn to deal if they've grown
up to
> expect the same fairness their loving parents extended to them, the
same
> degree of freedom, etc. We don't live in a Utopian society.
Employers
> are not going to be as gentle to our kids as we've been to them.
Yet somehow you seem to expect coddling from this group. If your
child has grown up feeling like they are a person worthy of respect,
chances are they will search out employers who ARE respectful (and
there ARE those out there) or they will be willing to put up with it
because they have followed their passion and the work is worth it to
them. Either way, THEY are in the drivers seat. They have been
raised to take responsibility for their own life.
Tory
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Christina M Ledford
On Thu, 5 Jun 2003 17:43:00 -0400 "Mary" <mummy124@...> write>
wrong. For some reason here, I'm unable to get through to this group.
I'm agreeing with 99.9% of everything you've said. It's not about
"toughening them up" so much as it is preparing them. But come on,
surviving requires some degree of "toughening up." But I define "tough"
more as being able to deal (or learning to deal) with some of the
not-so-gentle things life sometimes hands us. What is the harm in a
child learning that others won't always treat him/her with the same
respect and kindness his/her parents did. Huh? I mean, I can look at my
girls and see products of the kindness, respect, love that was given
them, but I can also see that they have the *hutzpah* to deal with the
crap. I'll repeat: I'm on your side; that's why I'm exploring new ideas
in homeschooling.
OK, I'll try to sit back and "listen" for awhile, but damn! It's hard
for me to not put my two cents in. And I'll admit that it's gotten me in
trouble in the past. My intention certainly is not to insult anyone nor
to dismiss the nature of unschooling. I'm here to learn...
Thank you,
Christina
>respectful to our kids. Condescension toward anyone, young or old, is
>
> Wow. So what are you saying? That we should be tough restrictive
> parents
> just so our kids will "learn a lesson" for the real world?? Not to
> be kind
> and respectful to our children because they will eventually run into
> others
> that won't?
> Do you honestly think that our children at a young age will be
> equipped the
> same in their ability to handle things when they have to be out
> working? At
> what age should we start to toughen them up? Sounds like that's what
> you
> think. Say it isn't so!
>
> Mary B
>
> OMG, it for sure isn't so! OK, I believe we should be kind and
wrong. For some reason here, I'm unable to get through to this group.
I'm agreeing with 99.9% of everything you've said. It's not about
"toughening them up" so much as it is preparing them. But come on,
surviving requires some degree of "toughening up." But I define "tough"
more as being able to deal (or learning to deal) with some of the
not-so-gentle things life sometimes hands us. What is the harm in a
child learning that others won't always treat him/her with the same
respect and kindness his/her parents did. Huh? I mean, I can look at my
girls and see products of the kindness, respect, love that was given
them, but I can also see that they have the *hutzpah* to deal with the
crap. I'll repeat: I'm on your side; that's why I'm exploring new ideas
in homeschooling.
OK, I'll try to sit back and "listen" for awhile, but damn! It's hard
for me to not put my two cents in. And I'll admit that it's gotten me in
trouble in the past. My intention certainly is not to insult anyone nor
to dismiss the nature of unschooling. I'm here to learn...
Thank you,
Christina
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
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> ~~~~
>
> If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please
> email the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or
> the list owner, Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or
> address an email to:
> [email protected]
>
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>
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> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
[email protected]
> From: "Christina M Ledford" <christina989@...>No wonder I like it here!! My totem is the dolphin so no wonder I feel
>
> <<Well, I guess I took a wrong turn when I subscribed to this list. I feel
> as though I'm in shark-infested waters.
perfectly safe in these shark infested waters.
I never thought unschooling > meant blatant permissiveness.
Common misconception, but exactly that, a misconception.
Kids are growing up to face a world that isnt' always going to treat them
with the
> same "kindness" as their parents.How sad is that? I would never teach my children to be unkind because that is
the way of the world. Then again we live by the Universal Law = what you put
out, you get back.
How are they supposed to learn to deal if they've grown up to
> expect the same fairness their loving parents extended to them, the sameMaybe if everyone unschooled, we could live in Utopia. That would be
> degree of freedom, etc. We don't live in a Utopian society.
wonderful.
Employers > are not going to be as gentle to our kids as we've been to
> them. Realitydisrespect by any fellow human, would go against every cell of their being. And should
> is reality. Idealism is another thing.>>
>
> Idealy my children will respect themselves so much that to tolerate
they be unfortunate enough to not be able to find a respectful employer, I
have no doubt that they will work for themselves, doing whatever it is they love
to do, because they want to be happy and enjoy this life, this time around.
Just my 2 cents
Rhonda - who hopes to be a dolphin in her next life if and only if she has to
come back here. (Don't I just floor you with weirdness sometimes?)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]