Sticking it out with "friends"
Nicholina ODonnell
Hello,
I'm not sure that the Subject accurately describes the contents, but here it goes.....Davan's lately had some problems with a friend of hers, Willa. They are both 5, have known each other about a year and primarily see each other at a weekly play group. In the last couple months, though, there have been issues.
Davan is the sort of kid who yells when upset. So, when something goes wrong at play group, she yells at the other kids. The other kids, meanwhile, either get quiet and retreat or come to their mom's when they get upset, so Davan's pretty different in that. Willa told her mom, just as the trouble between her and Davan started, that she was upset about Davan's yelling and just doesn't know what to do. Willa's mom relayed this to me, to which I said that I knew the yelling was a problem and we do try to work on it and I pretty much didn't know what to tell her. Her mom said, "We value your friendships and we aren't going anywhere, but it's a problem."
Sense this conversation, Willa has ignored Davan or outright told her that she wanted to play with Ellie (another girl at play group) and not Davan. Davan will ask her a question and Willa will just turn away. I don't think that's desirable behavior, either, but Davan and I seem to be the only ones it bothers, where as Davan's yelling is obviously a problem to everyone.
Davan and I have taken a bit of a break from the playgroup due to a trip out of town and Memorial Day happening. So, it had been 3 weeks sense we were last at playgroup and the dynamic had been Davan being left out of the Davan/Ellie/Willa group at the last two playgroups prior to our break. Davan had had a bit of a hard time with this, but did okay with just playing with me.
Yesterday was out first day back and things came to a head for me. Davan and Ellie were playing very well together and Willa was feeling left out, even though Davan and Ellie had invited her to play with them. It was fairly obvious that Willa wanted Ellie to play with her alone without Davan. Eventually, the three of them, plus Griffon (Willa's 3 year old brother) were playing upstairs while the adults were all downstairs with the babies. We heard someone crying - it sounded like a baby and we all looked around to make sure non of them had gone up the stairs, but they were all with us. Willa's mom thought it was Griffon, at that point and took off up the stairs.
It was Willa. Willa told her mom that "they" had put something around her neck and were pulling, strangling her. Willa's mom told the kids that was totally unacceptable and brought the crying and very distressed looking/sounding Willa downstairs with her. The feeling was, obviously, that Willa was telling the complete truth and that Davan was responsible. I even bought into it, much to my shame! Even Ellie was saying, "It was Davan's plan! It was Davan's plan!" over and over. I accused Davan of putting her robe tie (which she'd been wearing around her waste, but was then off) around Willa's neck, which Davan denied. Davan told me, "I don't even want to talk to someone as silly as you!" and turned away. While I wish she'd just told me outright what had happened, I can't blame her for this, as I was unjustly accusing her.
She ended up telling me (and this was later collaborated by Ellie and Willa, both) that Willa was pretending to sleep on the couch and Ellie and Davan were trying to wake her up. This escalated to them trying to pull her off the couch by her shirt. The interesting thing here is that Davan was not touching Willa at all. It had, apparently, been Davan's plan to pull Willa off the couch (thus Ellie's mantra), but it was most definitely Ellie pulling on Willa. I guess that the shirt being pulling was tight around her neck. However, no one ever put anything around Willa's neck and Davan never hurt her.
After Ellie apologized and I was still talking to Davan about what had happened, Ellie and Willa went off to play together. When Davan showed up, saying she was sorry to Willa (which she chose to do because Willa was so upset). Willa again just ignored Davan. Ellie invited Davan to join in their play and Davan agreed. Willa then told Davan, "My nose was bleeding from being strangled!" Which was simply untrue. The other moms showed up where the girls were playing in time to hear Ellie's version (identical to Davan's) about what had happened and Willa then said that they hadn't put anything around her neck, after all.
Willa's mom then said, as if to find something to blame Davan for, "It sounds like they didn't put anything around Willa's neck. When I was bringing Willa downstairs, though, Davan said, 'Yeah! Take her away! We don't want to play with a crybaby!" Now, this isn't a nice thing to say, but in light of what was an attention getting move on Willa's part, maybe wasn't that off base. We are working on not using hurtful names, just like the yelling. Davan does forget in the heat of the moment, though.
Whew! This has turned out much longer than I expected! I was just going to say that Davan had trouble with a friend, causing both the friend's mom and myself to often assume Davan was the one "doing wrong". I decided after yesterday, after this last incident, that this isn't a good situation for Davan to be in and we were not going to go to playgroup anymore because of this situation. When I told Ellie's mom of this, but that we would like to see Ellie another time during the week, she was supportive if I felt I needed to do it for Davan's sake.
However, she then started talking about homeschool moms keeping their kid's sheltered from kids that they have trouble with. That maybe one thing that was good about public school is that kids have to work things out with kids they don't get along with and that prepares them for getting along with co-workers they don't like later. What do you think about this? I'm thinking that it might be easier to learn to get along with unpleasant co-workers if you have a solid foundation of acceptance in childhood, but maybe I'm thinking faultily. I also feel like this isn't just a problem with not getting along, but of Davan being in a situation where she's the "bad one" in the eyes of the other kid's parent and sometimes even mine when I'm with them. This can't be good for her.
Well, I've poured this all out. Thanks for making it this far and I'd appreciate some feedback. Does it seem like I'm off-base taking Davan out of this situation?
Thanks,
Nicholina
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I'm not sure that the Subject accurately describes the contents, but here it goes.....Davan's lately had some problems with a friend of hers, Willa. They are both 5, have known each other about a year and primarily see each other at a weekly play group. In the last couple months, though, there have been issues.
Davan is the sort of kid who yells when upset. So, when something goes wrong at play group, she yells at the other kids. The other kids, meanwhile, either get quiet and retreat or come to their mom's when they get upset, so Davan's pretty different in that. Willa told her mom, just as the trouble between her and Davan started, that she was upset about Davan's yelling and just doesn't know what to do. Willa's mom relayed this to me, to which I said that I knew the yelling was a problem and we do try to work on it and I pretty much didn't know what to tell her. Her mom said, "We value your friendships and we aren't going anywhere, but it's a problem."
Sense this conversation, Willa has ignored Davan or outright told her that she wanted to play with Ellie (another girl at play group) and not Davan. Davan will ask her a question and Willa will just turn away. I don't think that's desirable behavior, either, but Davan and I seem to be the only ones it bothers, where as Davan's yelling is obviously a problem to everyone.
Davan and I have taken a bit of a break from the playgroup due to a trip out of town and Memorial Day happening. So, it had been 3 weeks sense we were last at playgroup and the dynamic had been Davan being left out of the Davan/Ellie/Willa group at the last two playgroups prior to our break. Davan had had a bit of a hard time with this, but did okay with just playing with me.
Yesterday was out first day back and things came to a head for me. Davan and Ellie were playing very well together and Willa was feeling left out, even though Davan and Ellie had invited her to play with them. It was fairly obvious that Willa wanted Ellie to play with her alone without Davan. Eventually, the three of them, plus Griffon (Willa's 3 year old brother) were playing upstairs while the adults were all downstairs with the babies. We heard someone crying - it sounded like a baby and we all looked around to make sure non of them had gone up the stairs, but they were all with us. Willa's mom thought it was Griffon, at that point and took off up the stairs.
It was Willa. Willa told her mom that "they" had put something around her neck and were pulling, strangling her. Willa's mom told the kids that was totally unacceptable and brought the crying and very distressed looking/sounding Willa downstairs with her. The feeling was, obviously, that Willa was telling the complete truth and that Davan was responsible. I even bought into it, much to my shame! Even Ellie was saying, "It was Davan's plan! It was Davan's plan!" over and over. I accused Davan of putting her robe tie (which she'd been wearing around her waste, but was then off) around Willa's neck, which Davan denied. Davan told me, "I don't even want to talk to someone as silly as you!" and turned away. While I wish she'd just told me outright what had happened, I can't blame her for this, as I was unjustly accusing her.
She ended up telling me (and this was later collaborated by Ellie and Willa, both) that Willa was pretending to sleep on the couch and Ellie and Davan were trying to wake her up. This escalated to them trying to pull her off the couch by her shirt. The interesting thing here is that Davan was not touching Willa at all. It had, apparently, been Davan's plan to pull Willa off the couch (thus Ellie's mantra), but it was most definitely Ellie pulling on Willa. I guess that the shirt being pulling was tight around her neck. However, no one ever put anything around Willa's neck and Davan never hurt her.
After Ellie apologized and I was still talking to Davan about what had happened, Ellie and Willa went off to play together. When Davan showed up, saying she was sorry to Willa (which she chose to do because Willa was so upset). Willa again just ignored Davan. Ellie invited Davan to join in their play and Davan agreed. Willa then told Davan, "My nose was bleeding from being strangled!" Which was simply untrue. The other moms showed up where the girls were playing in time to hear Ellie's version (identical to Davan's) about what had happened and Willa then said that they hadn't put anything around her neck, after all.
Willa's mom then said, as if to find something to blame Davan for, "It sounds like they didn't put anything around Willa's neck. When I was bringing Willa downstairs, though, Davan said, 'Yeah! Take her away! We don't want to play with a crybaby!" Now, this isn't a nice thing to say, but in light of what was an attention getting move on Willa's part, maybe wasn't that off base. We are working on not using hurtful names, just like the yelling. Davan does forget in the heat of the moment, though.
Whew! This has turned out much longer than I expected! I was just going to say that Davan had trouble with a friend, causing both the friend's mom and myself to often assume Davan was the one "doing wrong". I decided after yesterday, after this last incident, that this isn't a good situation for Davan to be in and we were not going to go to playgroup anymore because of this situation. When I told Ellie's mom of this, but that we would like to see Ellie another time during the week, she was supportive if I felt I needed to do it for Davan's sake.
However, she then started talking about homeschool moms keeping their kid's sheltered from kids that they have trouble with. That maybe one thing that was good about public school is that kids have to work things out with kids they don't get along with and that prepares them for getting along with co-workers they don't like later. What do you think about this? I'm thinking that it might be easier to learn to get along with unpleasant co-workers if you have a solid foundation of acceptance in childhood, but maybe I'm thinking faultily. I also feel like this isn't just a problem with not getting along, but of Davan being in a situation where she's the "bad one" in the eyes of the other kid's parent and sometimes even mine when I'm with them. This can't be good for her.
Well, I've poured this all out. Thanks for making it this far and I'd appreciate some feedback. Does it seem like I'm off-base taking Davan out of this situation?
Thanks,
Nicholina
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Mary
From: "Nicholina ODonnell" <arodonn@...>
<<However, she then started talking about homeschool moms keeping their
kid's sheltered from kids that they have trouble with. That maybe one thing
that was good about public school is that kids have to work things out with
kids they don't get along with and that prepares them for getting along with
co-workers they don't like later. What do you think about this? >>
I think school doesn't help these kinds of situations. Not many teachers
take the time, or have the time to talk to the children and resolve the
problems. So the kids either pick on other kids and become bullies, or
ignore them completely and turn the kids into "nerds." Meaning someone
uncool that they won't hang with. Or sometimes the left out child will
become bothered enough by being left out and do what she has to become cool
and included. Not great either.
I don't see where children at 5 have the skills they need to handle
situations like this all on their own like an adult would in a working
situation.
Mary B
<<However, she then started talking about homeschool moms keeping their
kid's sheltered from kids that they have trouble with. That maybe one thing
that was good about public school is that kids have to work things out with
kids they don't get along with and that prepares them for getting along with
co-workers they don't like later. What do you think about this? >>
I think school doesn't help these kinds of situations. Not many teachers
take the time, or have the time to talk to the children and resolve the
problems. So the kids either pick on other kids and become bullies, or
ignore them completely and turn the kids into "nerds." Meaning someone
uncool that they won't hang with. Or sometimes the left out child will
become bothered enough by being left out and do what she has to become cool
and included. Not great either.
I don't see where children at 5 have the skills they need to handle
situations like this all on their own like an adult would in a working
situation.
Mary B
zenmomma2kids
>>Does it seem like I'm off-base taking Davan out of this situation?>>I don't think you're off-base. There seems to be a problem with the
three girl dynamic right now. There's nothng wrong with the girls
playing one on one for awhile. Groups, especially groups of three,
can be hard.
I don't think we need to keep our kids in stressful situations to
help them learn. Your daughter may very well need the time away from
the group to process what happened.
As far as getting along when she's older and working...I know that
I'd leave a job if the people were impossible to deal with. Life's to
short to suffer fools.
Life is good.
~Mary
[email protected]
Does it seem like I'm off-base taking Davan out of this situation?
I don't think you're off base. I took my 4.5 year old son out of a play
situation on our block for a while because one friend was being too mean. The
hitting didn't bother me as much as the whispering of religious stuff in his ear.
Yesterday three of the neighborhood boys were playing together for a while,
my son was one of them. The other two were making him chase them and then
pretending to shoot him. After a long while he came over to me, his sister and a
three year old next door (moving topsoil in a wheelbarrow, great fun!) and
told me that he didn't want to play with them anymore because they were being
mean. When the other boys showed up a few minutes later asking for Nathan I
told them that he had gone inside for lemonaide and didn't want to play with them
because he thought they were being mean to him. They went off and then came
back and decided to apologize.
I think 5 is young to figure out how to get along in a group. Groups of
three are always rough. She needs your help and protection. As far as the
comment about homeschooling mom's protecting their kids too much, I have to wonder
why anyone would find this a bad thing! Protecting them, helping them find
their way, giving them the opportunity to live without the stress of forced
interpersonal relationships, that's my job!
Elizabeth
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I don't think you're off base. I took my 4.5 year old son out of a play
situation on our block for a while because one friend was being too mean. The
hitting didn't bother me as much as the whispering of religious stuff in his ear.
Yesterday three of the neighborhood boys were playing together for a while,
my son was one of them. The other two were making him chase them and then
pretending to shoot him. After a long while he came over to me, his sister and a
three year old next door (moving topsoil in a wheelbarrow, great fun!) and
told me that he didn't want to play with them anymore because they were being
mean. When the other boys showed up a few minutes later asking for Nathan I
told them that he had gone inside for lemonaide and didn't want to play with them
because he thought they were being mean to him. They went off and then came
back and decided to apologize.
I think 5 is young to figure out how to get along in a group. Groups of
three are always rough. She needs your help and protection. As far as the
comment about homeschooling mom's protecting their kids too much, I have to wonder
why anyone would find this a bad thing! Protecting them, helping them find
their way, giving them the opportunity to live without the stress of forced
interpersonal relationships, that's my job!
Elizabeth
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/3/2003 2:51:49 PM Eastern Standard Time,
arodonn@... writes:
I think you are 100% right for leaving the group.
If you are in a group and the parents think your child is a "bad one" your
child will never get a break.
School doesn't prepare one to deal with much of anything other than an attack
back. I have a sister who attended Private catholic schools all her
schooling years. She is now 19 and cannot deal with anything. She cannot hold a job,
complains about no one helping her and attacks me at every turn. I even took
her in twice and she stayed a month turned our home and family up side down
and left. She says the F word to anyone and everyone she has no clue.
Public schools dont work anything out and they do not see everything. Did you
ever see the John Stosel /20/20(sp) show about Bullies?
I also think that once you add a third child to the mix there is often
issues.
Laura D
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
arodonn@... writes:
> However, she then started talking about homeschool moms keeping their kid'sIm behind a bit so I apologize if this is old.
> sheltered from kids that they have trouble with. That maybe one thing that
> was good about public school is that kids have to work things out with kids
> they don't get along with and that prepares them for getting along with
> co-workers they don't like later. What do you think about this? I'm thinking that
> it might be easier to learn to get along with unpleasant co-workers if you
> have a solid foundation of acceptance in childhood, but maybe I'm thinking
> faultily. I also feel like this isn't just a problem with not getting along,
> but of Davan being in a situation where she's the "bad one" in the eyes of the
> other kid's parent and sometimes even mine when I'm with them. This can't be
> good for her.
>
> Well, I've poured this all out. Thanks for making it this far and I'd
> appreciate some feedback. Does it seem like I'm off-base taking Davan out of this
> situation?
>
> Thanks,
> Nicholina
>
>
I think you are 100% right for leaving the group.
If you are in a group and the parents think your child is a "bad one" your
child will never get a break.
School doesn't prepare one to deal with much of anything other than an attack
back. I have a sister who attended Private catholic schools all her
schooling years. She is now 19 and cannot deal with anything. She cannot hold a job,
complains about no one helping her and attacks me at every turn. I even took
her in twice and she stayed a month turned our home and family up side down
and left. She says the F word to anyone and everyone she has no clue.
Public schools dont work anything out and they do not see everything. Did you
ever see the John Stosel /20/20(sp) show about Bullies?
I also think that once you add a third child to the mix there is often
issues.
Laura D
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/3/2003 7:52:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, ejcrewe@...
writes:
even provide transportation if the parent can't make it.
Nancy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
writes:
> I think 5 is young to figure out how to get along in a group. Groups ofCan you think of a 4th child that'd like to join the group? :o) You could
> three are always rough. She needs your help and protection.
even provide transportation if the parent can't make it.
Nancy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/3/03 2:51:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
arodonn@... writes:
child and was not in a situation where I was enjoying myself I would leave. I
don't think it is at all bad to not be with this person Willa. As adults we are
around friends that we get along with. We don't put ourselves, voluntarily,
with people we don't "like" (for lack of a better work). I don't consider it
sheltering. I considering it respecting a child's wishes. My boys choose if
they want to go to playgroup or not. I go for them. But if I wanted adult
conversation I always have other options.
If I were working outside the home I would not be working with people I did
not like. I have left a job in the past because of a stressful work
environment. I think we are so programmed that you have to put up with stressful
coworkers and we accept it.
When we have playgroup it is always at a place where the children are in
view. Of course my boys are still young. That helps. If I saw a situation
starting it is easy to step in and redirect things. They are young.
Just a couple of thoughts.
Pam G.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
arodonn@... writes:
> However, she then started talking about homeschool moms keeping their kid'sI feel for ya. It has to be a hard situation to be in. But if I were a
> sheltered from kids that they have trouble with. That maybe one thing that
> was good about public school is that kids have to work things out with kids
> they don't get along with and that prepares them for getting along with
> co-workers they don't like later.
child and was not in a situation where I was enjoying myself I would leave. I
don't think it is at all bad to not be with this person Willa. As adults we are
around friends that we get along with. We don't put ourselves, voluntarily,
with people we don't "like" (for lack of a better work). I don't consider it
sheltering. I considering it respecting a child's wishes. My boys choose if
they want to go to playgroup or not. I go for them. But if I wanted adult
conversation I always have other options.
If I were working outside the home I would not be working with people I did
not like. I have left a job in the past because of a stressful work
environment. I think we are so programmed that you have to put up with stressful
coworkers and we accept it.
When we have playgroup it is always at a place where the children are in
view. Of course my boys are still young. That helps. If I saw a situation
starting it is easy to step in and redirect things. They are young.
Just a couple of thoughts.
Pam G.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Have A Nice Day!
I want to say that every time I have taken my kids out of situations like these, I have NEVER regretted it...and often wondered why I didn't do it sooner.
Kristen
Kristen
----- Original Message -----
From: ejcrewe@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2003 7:51 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Sticking it out with "friends"
Does it seem like I'm off-base taking Davan out of this situation?
I don't think you're off base. I took my 4.5 year old son out of a play
situation on our block for a while because one friend was being too mean. The
hitting didn't bother me as much as the whispering of religious stuff in his ear.
Yesterday three of the neighborhood boys were playing together for a while,
my son was one of them. The other two were making him chase them and then
pretending to shoot him. After a long while he came over to me, his sister and a
three year old next door (moving topsoil in a wheelbarrow, great fun!) and
told me that he didn't want to play with them anymore because they were being
mean. When the other boys showed up a few minutes later asking for Nathan I
told them that he had gone inside for lemonaide and didn't want to play with them
because he thought they were being mean to him. They went off and then came
back and decided to apologize.
I think 5 is young to figure out how to get along in a group. Groups of
three are always rough. She needs your help and protection. As far as the
comment about homeschooling mom's protecting their kids too much, I have to wonder
why anyone would find this a bad thing! Protecting them, helping them find
their way, giving them the opportunity to live without the stress of forced
interpersonal relationships, that's my job!
Elizabeth
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Have A Nice Day!
Along these same lines, I want to interject that there is hope. This is a little long, so I apologize in advance.
My 11 year old daughter and her neighbor friend (who is 10) grew up together and are both very competitive. Over the years I knew this child was lying about a lot of things, often in an effort to either control my daughter or to control how my daughter's other friends perceive my daughter.
During these times I gave my daughter strategies for handling the situations and often reminded her that she does not have to put up with this stuff, but she might not want to burn any bridges. After all, at this age, friends grow together, apart, and together again. Sometimes my daughter would "take a break" for awhile, but they always reunited.
Anyway, fortunately, her mother and I have a very good friendship. Awhile ago, as the girls were getting older, we decided that we would stay out of the girls' problems getting along. We would be there to listen to each of them complain, and we would offer support and suggestions for how to solve the problem. But we would not intervene. We've been doing this for about 2? years now. This seems to be working pretty well.
Just this week, they have been fighting again, more nasty lies, etc. These two are supposed to go to resident camp together in a few weeks. This could be a REAL problem. (They signed up as "buddies"). So, my daughter and I talked about this. She came up with a few ideas for solutions. Then she went to her friend and mentioned to her that she wasn't sure they should go together to camp since they will probably fight the whole time, to which the other girl agreed that was a possibility.
After they had talked a bit about it, I called the mom. She was already aware that the two had been fighting a lot, and I think she must have been aware that my daughter was thinking about canceling the camping thing. In fact, her daughter had asked *her* to call *me* but she wanted to wait until I called her. I take it as a compliment that she trusted me to call her...and didn't feel the need to jump on the phone and get upset.
She and I discussed it and she was perfectly ok with whatever my daughter decided, agreeing that it could be a bad thing if they go together. I discussed my daughter's ideas with her and asked her what she thought. We decided to let the girls discuss it on their own some more and try to come up with their own solution.
The girls have since decided they will go together as buddies, but *they* will tell the counselors ahead of time that if they start fighting, the counselors should separate them.
I thought that was a pretty mature way to handle it and try to keep everyone happy...on both their parts. In fact, the friend's response was "I think we should work our problem out."
BUT, it definitely requires parents who are on the same page and who can support each other even when their kids are hurting each other. We have to put our mother bear instincts on the back burner long enough to help our kids work their own problems out...and granted, our kids are a little older than the kids in the original situation.
SOOOO, in spite of the difficulties, and the many things we differ on, she is a rare gem of a friend to me. (She always has her best face on, and refuses to hand wash dishes, while I'm raishing a pig and chickens in my back yard (she got a big kick out of telling her family about that LOL).
We both hope our friendship is an example to our girls that its ok to be different with different values, and still be really good friends.
Kristen
My 11 year old daughter and her neighbor friend (who is 10) grew up together and are both very competitive. Over the years I knew this child was lying about a lot of things, often in an effort to either control my daughter or to control how my daughter's other friends perceive my daughter.
During these times I gave my daughter strategies for handling the situations and often reminded her that she does not have to put up with this stuff, but she might not want to burn any bridges. After all, at this age, friends grow together, apart, and together again. Sometimes my daughter would "take a break" for awhile, but they always reunited.
Anyway, fortunately, her mother and I have a very good friendship. Awhile ago, as the girls were getting older, we decided that we would stay out of the girls' problems getting along. We would be there to listen to each of them complain, and we would offer support and suggestions for how to solve the problem. But we would not intervene. We've been doing this for about 2? years now. This seems to be working pretty well.
Just this week, they have been fighting again, more nasty lies, etc. These two are supposed to go to resident camp together in a few weeks. This could be a REAL problem. (They signed up as "buddies"). So, my daughter and I talked about this. She came up with a few ideas for solutions. Then she went to her friend and mentioned to her that she wasn't sure they should go together to camp since they will probably fight the whole time, to which the other girl agreed that was a possibility.
After they had talked a bit about it, I called the mom. She was already aware that the two had been fighting a lot, and I think she must have been aware that my daughter was thinking about canceling the camping thing. In fact, her daughter had asked *her* to call *me* but she wanted to wait until I called her. I take it as a compliment that she trusted me to call her...and didn't feel the need to jump on the phone and get upset.
She and I discussed it and she was perfectly ok with whatever my daughter decided, agreeing that it could be a bad thing if they go together. I discussed my daughter's ideas with her and asked her what she thought. We decided to let the girls discuss it on their own some more and try to come up with their own solution.
The girls have since decided they will go together as buddies, but *they* will tell the counselors ahead of time that if they start fighting, the counselors should separate them.
I thought that was a pretty mature way to handle it and try to keep everyone happy...on both their parts. In fact, the friend's response was "I think we should work our problem out."
BUT, it definitely requires parents who are on the same page and who can support each other even when their kids are hurting each other. We have to put our mother bear instincts on the back burner long enough to help our kids work their own problems out...and granted, our kids are a little older than the kids in the original situation.
SOOOO, in spite of the difficulties, and the many things we differ on, she is a rare gem of a friend to me. (She always has her best face on, and refuses to hand wash dishes, while I'm raishing a pig and chickens in my back yard (she got a big kick out of telling her family about that LOL).
We both hope our friendship is an example to our girls that its ok to be different with different values, and still be really good friends.
Kristen
----- Original Message -----
From: genant2@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2003 10:00 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Sticking it out with "friends"
In a message dated 6/3/03 2:51:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
arodonn@... writes:
> However, she then started talking about homeschool moms keeping their kid's
> sheltered from kids that they have trouble with. That maybe one thing that
> was good about public school is that kids have to work things out with kids
> they don't get along with and that prepares them for getting along with
> co-workers they don't like later.
I feel for ya. It has to be a hard situation to be in. But if I were a
child and was not in a situation where I was enjoying myself I would leave. I
don't think it is at all bad to not be with this person Willa. As adults we are
around friends that we get along with. We don't put ourselves, voluntarily,
with people we don't "like" (for lack of a better work). I don't consider it
sheltering. I considering it respecting a child's wishes. My boys choose if
they want to go to playgroup or not. I go for them. But if I wanted adult
conversation I always have other options.
If I were working outside the home I would not be working with people I did
not like. I have left a job in the past because of a stressful work
environment. I think we are so programmed that you have to put up with stressful
coworkers and we accept it.
When we have playgroup it is always at a place where the children are in
view. Of course my boys are still young. That helps. If I saw a situation
starting it is easy to step in and redirect things. They are young.
Just a couple of thoughts.
Pam G.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Nicholina ODonnell
Thanks to everyone who responded to my playgroup problem. I appreciate the support for my decision to protect Davan from this dynamic and this suggestion:
I spoke with the other mom (Willa's mom, for those who might remember her name) this afternoon and she had also decided to pull out of playgroup to protect her child. As I'd already made other arrangements with the host mom, she's staying and Davan and I will see Ellie, the third in the triangle on another day of the week. Davan's not very close with the other children in that group, so doesn't mind not seeing them.
Nicholina
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>Can you think of a 4th child that'd like to join the group? :o) You couldThere is actually, a fourth child right in the same age group as the three girls, as well as the younger brother and the babies, all who are regulars plus others who come on occasion. These three are just always at the center of things. They've had times where that worked out okay, but not anymore!
>even provide transportation if the parent can't make it.
I spoke with the other mom (Willa's mom, for those who might remember her name) this afternoon and she had also decided to pull out of playgroup to protect her child. As I'd already made other arrangements with the host mom, she's staying and Davan and I will see Ellie, the third in the triangle on another day of the week. Davan's not very close with the other children in that group, so doesn't mind not seeing them.
Nicholina
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/3/03 5:07:43 PM, zenmomma@... writes:
<< Life's to short to suffer fools. >>
But sometimes it's diverting and educational to poke at them a while, like a
cat with a cockroach, before you let them scurry on away.
Holly has some friends I just as soon she didn't have because they're
amazingly unbright (dully dim), but she is analytical about it all, and kind of
clinical, and likely knows what she's doing.
Sandra
<< Life's to short to suffer fools. >>
But sometimes it's diverting and educational to poke at them a while, like a
cat with a cockroach, before you let them scurry on away.
Holly has some friends I just as soon she didn't have because they're
amazingly unbright (dully dim), but she is analytical about it all, and kind of
clinical, and likely knows what she's doing.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/3/03 8:02:45 PM, genant2@... writes:
<< That maybe one thing that
I have a kid who hasn't been to school. He has had co-workers he didn't like.
I think he handles it better than I did for a deep and real-life reason: I
had a "this is just for one year" mentality (school-learned), while he has a
"this is normal real life, and I need to figure out how to make things as
smooth as I can make them."
In school it's not really a kid's job to make his life smooth. Every time he
turns around he is pulled OUT of some comfortable situation to be put in a
new and strange set of people with new rules. Kids change teachers and classes
more often than my 16 year old son has changed jobs and co-workers.
Schoolkids don't NEED a longrange view. They can piss in their own pool and then go
off to college. And after college, go off to wherever.
Kirby doesn't seem to have that mentality.
When I was a kid I was in a small town. I still know people I grew up with.
I thought Albuquerque wouldn't be that way, for my kids, but they DO keep
socializing with people they've known since they were little, partly because of
homeschooling or other commonalities, but partly because it turns out that for
those who are open and accepting of it, the world isn't so six-billion-people
as it is those we have made connections with, and the connections branching
off from that, and curling back around into it. Each individual life has themes
and patterns, and people can be drawn to that energy and those interests and
commitments and it IS possible to live as though you aren't going to move
again in a year and abandon all you've known.
Around the end of July or early August, I think, Kirby will have had the same
job for three years. I know adults who've never had the same job for three
years.
There are doubtless lots of factors, but a to the school-honored theory that
school will train people to get along on the job, I think that's just frosting
on a cake going bad.
Sandra
<< That maybe one thing that
> was good about public school is that kids have to work things out with kidsI've been to school, I've had co-workers I didn't like.
> they don't get along with and that prepares them for getting along with
> co-workers they don't like later. >>
I have a kid who hasn't been to school. He has had co-workers he didn't like.
I think he handles it better than I did for a deep and real-life reason: I
had a "this is just for one year" mentality (school-learned), while he has a
"this is normal real life, and I need to figure out how to make things as
smooth as I can make them."
In school it's not really a kid's job to make his life smooth. Every time he
turns around he is pulled OUT of some comfortable situation to be put in a
new and strange set of people with new rules. Kids change teachers and classes
more often than my 16 year old son has changed jobs and co-workers.
Schoolkids don't NEED a longrange view. They can piss in their own pool and then go
off to college. And after college, go off to wherever.
Kirby doesn't seem to have that mentality.
When I was a kid I was in a small town. I still know people I grew up with.
I thought Albuquerque wouldn't be that way, for my kids, but they DO keep
socializing with people they've known since they were little, partly because of
homeschooling or other commonalities, but partly because it turns out that for
those who are open and accepting of it, the world isn't so six-billion-people
as it is those we have made connections with, and the connections branching
off from that, and curling back around into it. Each individual life has themes
and patterns, and people can be drawn to that energy and those interests and
commitments and it IS possible to live as though you aren't going to move
again in a year and abandon all you've known.
Around the end of July or early August, I think, Kirby will have had the same
job for three years. I know adults who've never had the same job for three
years.
There are doubtless lots of factors, but a to the school-honored theory that
school will train people to get along on the job, I think that's just frosting
on a cake going bad.
Sandra
[email protected]
I've had really good luck with talking directly to the friends. I will say,
to someone else's child, "If you want to keep playing with Marty, you need to
be more honest with him. Think, before you say something, whether it's really
true." And I make kind eye contact and speak softly and in private (or maybe
just in front of the one other kid of mine) and it's not an "is that okay
with you?" situation, it's a gentle ultimatum.
I've told kids to calm down. I've told kids not to shame my kids, that that
one reason they're out of school is so they WON'T be treated that way, so I
don't want it happening in my own house.
I've told kids that I don't want my kids learning mean names to call people,
and I don't want them called mean names.
I've said "I'm sorry if kids treated you that way at school, but please don't
bring it here."
If a human of ANY age is at my house, I feel like I have the right to talk to
that person, without having to talk to his or her mother instead. I've
talked to parents too, but some parents are defensive, some have the same traits as
the kids (will lie to cover kids' lies, will blame my kid over theirs for
something I saw and they didn't, or whatever), and the liklihood of the other
parent repeating or interpreting what I said in a really useful way is
statistically slim.
There are a couple of moms I've known a long time and I know they WILL deal
with things smoothly. Carol Rice, who wrote the late reading article, has four
kids, and almost all four have had one-on-one dealings with almost all three
of mine. Outside of her oldest and my youngest, there have been all kinds of
combos and permutations. Over 16 years later, we have nearly a shorthand
between the families and things work out really well.
Kirby talked to me May 26, on the way back from camping, and said for the
first time ever, he spent some time alone with Julie (Carol's youngest, 14) and
that it was fun! He had always been in a group of three or more and the
communication was never straight between him and Julie. They talked about dance,
and siblings (and each knows the others'), and depending on others, and social
life, and the future (cars, jobs, places to live).
Sandra
to someone else's child, "If you want to keep playing with Marty, you need to
be more honest with him. Think, before you say something, whether it's really
true." And I make kind eye contact and speak softly and in private (or maybe
just in front of the one other kid of mine) and it's not an "is that okay
with you?" situation, it's a gentle ultimatum.
I've told kids to calm down. I've told kids not to shame my kids, that that
one reason they're out of school is so they WON'T be treated that way, so I
don't want it happening in my own house.
I've told kids that I don't want my kids learning mean names to call people,
and I don't want them called mean names.
I've said "I'm sorry if kids treated you that way at school, but please don't
bring it here."
If a human of ANY age is at my house, I feel like I have the right to talk to
that person, without having to talk to his or her mother instead. I've
talked to parents too, but some parents are defensive, some have the same traits as
the kids (will lie to cover kids' lies, will blame my kid over theirs for
something I saw and they didn't, or whatever), and the liklihood of the other
parent repeating or interpreting what I said in a really useful way is
statistically slim.
There are a couple of moms I've known a long time and I know they WILL deal
with things smoothly. Carol Rice, who wrote the late reading article, has four
kids, and almost all four have had one-on-one dealings with almost all three
of mine. Outside of her oldest and my youngest, there have been all kinds of
combos and permutations. Over 16 years later, we have nearly a shorthand
between the families and things work out really well.
Kirby talked to me May 26, on the way back from camping, and said for the
first time ever, he spent some time alone with Julie (Carol's youngest, 14) and
that it was fun! He had always been in a group of three or more and the
communication was never straight between him and Julie. They talked about dance,
and siblings (and each knows the others'), and depending on others, and social
life, and the future (cars, jobs, places to live).
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/3/03 10:18:50 PM, arodonn@... writes:
<< Davan's not very close with the other children in that group, so doesn't
mind not seeing them.
getting together a while, and a year or two later she misses the kid, and they get
together on a different level, different dynamics. Sometimes a six month or
yearlong break is all it takes.
A few, Holly doesn't remember not liking them or not getting along. Thats
fine too!
She's going to a sleepover with one of these off again, on again friends on
Saturday and is really excited about it.
I don't want them to have to commit for years wither for or against someone
when they're little, or to define a relationship as "ARE friends" or "AREN'T
friends." Better to make temporary descriptions, like "Having fun these days"
or "might get along better when he's older."
It's like "Marty doesn't like spinach yet." It leaves the door open.
Sandra
<< Davan's not very close with the other children in that group, so doesn't
mind not seeing them.
>>That reminds me that there have been kids Holly didn't like, and we quit
getting together a while, and a year or two later she misses the kid, and they get
together on a different level, different dynamics. Sometimes a six month or
yearlong break is all it takes.
A few, Holly doesn't remember not liking them or not getting along. Thats
fine too!
She's going to a sleepover with one of these off again, on again friends on
Saturday and is really excited about it.
I don't want them to have to commit for years wither for or against someone
when they're little, or to define a relationship as "ARE friends" or "AREN'T
friends." Better to make temporary descriptions, like "Having fun these days"
or "might get along better when he's older."
It's like "Marty doesn't like spinach yet." It leaves the door open.
Sandra
Have A Nice Day!
I've had really good luck with talking directly to the friends. I will say,
to someone else's child, "If you want to keep playing with Marty, you need to
be more honest with him. Think, before you say something, whether it's really
true." And I make kind eye contact and speak softly and in private (or maybe
just in front of the one other kid of mine) and it's not an "is that okay
with you?" situation, it's a gentle ultimatum.<<<<<
You are right about this Sandra. In the case of my daughter's friend, I had them talk to each other because that is what my daughter wanted. I talked to her mom because in this particular situation I knew I could.
But with other kids who have been here, I have confronted kids and told them they need to go home unless or until they can stop x behavior.
What I find happens so much of the time here though is that many of the friends deny any wrong doing, or my own kids don't really want the friend to leave so I feel as though my hands are tied. Sometimes my kids put up with it simply because there is nobody else to play with and its a trade off.
Other times, these are the kids my kids PREFER to play with!
What I cannot understand, and I truly mean this, is why the vast majority of my kids' friends have so many issues. Its like we are a magnet for this stuff. Of all the "friends" they have, very few are simply "nice kids" that don't have a ton of baggage attatched. The vast majority all have behavior or discipline problems of one kind or another, and its not just the schools that are the cause.
And the older ones are getting harder to persuade in a kind way to behave appropriately. Some of them think everything is a big joke when I try to talk to them in a nice way. I don't like the idea that these kids don't take *any* authority figure seriously. I don't think of myself as an "authority figure", but this is *our* home and I definitely feel taken advantage of lately.
Its getting to the point where I'm feeling the need to limit friendships in order to save my own kids from being dragged down with them.
Kristen
to someone else's child, "If you want to keep playing with Marty, you need to
be more honest with him. Think, before you say something, whether it's really
true." And I make kind eye contact and speak softly and in private (or maybe
just in front of the one other kid of mine) and it's not an "is that okay
with you?" situation, it's a gentle ultimatum.<<<<<
You are right about this Sandra. In the case of my daughter's friend, I had them talk to each other because that is what my daughter wanted. I talked to her mom because in this particular situation I knew I could.
But with other kids who have been here, I have confronted kids and told them they need to go home unless or until they can stop x behavior.
What I find happens so much of the time here though is that many of the friends deny any wrong doing, or my own kids don't really want the friend to leave so I feel as though my hands are tied. Sometimes my kids put up with it simply because there is nobody else to play with and its a trade off.
Other times, these are the kids my kids PREFER to play with!
What I cannot understand, and I truly mean this, is why the vast majority of my kids' friends have so many issues. Its like we are a magnet for this stuff. Of all the "friends" they have, very few are simply "nice kids" that don't have a ton of baggage attatched. The vast majority all have behavior or discipline problems of one kind or another, and its not just the schools that are the cause.
And the older ones are getting harder to persuade in a kind way to behave appropriately. Some of them think everything is a big joke when I try to talk to them in a nice way. I don't like the idea that these kids don't take *any* authority figure seriously. I don't think of myself as an "authority figure", but this is *our* home and I definitely feel taken advantage of lately.
Its getting to the point where I'm feeling the need to limit friendships in order to save my own kids from being dragged down with them.
Kristen
----- Original Message -----
From: SandraDodd@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2003 8:38 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Sticking it out with "friends"
I've had really good luck with talking directly to the friends. I will say,
to someone else's child, "If you want to keep playing with Marty, you need to
be more honest with him. Think, before you say something, whether it's really
true." And I make kind eye contact and speak softly and in private (or maybe
just in front of the one other kid of mine) and it's not an "is that okay
with you?" situation, it's a gentle ultimatum.
I've told kids to calm down. I've told kids not to shame my kids, that that
one reason they're out of school is so they WON'T be treated that way, so I
don't want it happening in my own house.
I've told kids that I don't want my kids learning mean names to call people,
and I don't want them called mean names.
I've said "I'm sorry if kids treated you that way at school, but please don't
bring it here."
If a human of ANY age is at my house, I feel like I have the right to talk to
that person, without having to talk to his or her mother instead. I've
talked to parents too, but some parents are defensive, some have the same traits as
the kids (will lie to cover kids' lies, will blame my kid over theirs for
something I saw and they didn't, or whatever), and the liklihood of the other
parent repeating or interpreting what I said in a really useful way is
statistically slim.
There are a couple of moms I've known a long time and I know they WILL deal
with things smoothly. Carol Rice, who wrote the late reading article, has four
kids, and almost all four have had one-on-one dealings with almost all three
of mine. Outside of her oldest and my youngest, there have been all kinds of
combos and permutations. Over 16 years later, we have nearly a shorthand
between the families and things work out really well.
Kirby talked to me May 26, on the way back from camping, and said for the
first time ever, he spent some time alone with Julie (Carol's youngest, 14) and
that it was fun! He had always been in a group of three or more and the
communication was never straight between him and Julie. They talked about dance,
and siblings (and each knows the others'), and depending on others, and social
life, and the future (cars, jobs, places to live).
Sandra
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
I just wanted to share our experience yesterday about a group of almost five
year old boys and the play dynamics. I took Sandra's advice about talking
directly to the kids to heart and it seemed to really help.
The boy we've had trouble with has had a babysitter every afternoon for weeks
now and it brings his behavior to an unacceptable point. Nathan went outside
while I was getting Julia's shoes on, so I followed him to a yard two doors
down. He had already made it back but when I got there I heard the neighbor
boy, Luke, telling another "Let's chase Nathan and scare him." I told Luke that
Nathan really liked playing with him, but that he needed to be nicer to him
or he would decide not to play. I said that being mean and hitting and
pinching were not allowed in our family and that if he wanted to play with us, he
needed to leave that at home. I then found Nathan at a different backyard and
told him what Luke and I had talked about.
The kids played together for a while, but Nathan wanted to joust and none of
the other kids really were interested. So he and Julia jousted a bit (running
on hobby horses towards each other and then falling on the ground) and then
tried to play with the other kids.
We worked it out. They played together when they wanted to, didn't when they
weren't interested. The meanness was minimized because Luke kept looking to
see if I was noticing what he was doing. And Nathan felt like I was
understanding him and standing up for him.
Later I learned that this poor Luke actually has a latch up high on the
outside of his bedroom door so that he cannot leave during nap our bed time.
Yikes.
We've had some rainy weather here for a while and before that we had a huge
dirt pile in our driveway (now we have a mudslick), so playing with this
particular neighbor hasn't been an option for a couple of weeks. His parents don't
let him get dirty. The distance helped, and now the intervention will
hopefully model for Nathan how to express his needs on his own.
Elizabeth
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
year old boys and the play dynamics. I took Sandra's advice about talking
directly to the kids to heart and it seemed to really help.
The boy we've had trouble with has had a babysitter every afternoon for weeks
now and it brings his behavior to an unacceptable point. Nathan went outside
while I was getting Julia's shoes on, so I followed him to a yard two doors
down. He had already made it back but when I got there I heard the neighbor
boy, Luke, telling another "Let's chase Nathan and scare him." I told Luke that
Nathan really liked playing with him, but that he needed to be nicer to him
or he would decide not to play. I said that being mean and hitting and
pinching were not allowed in our family and that if he wanted to play with us, he
needed to leave that at home. I then found Nathan at a different backyard and
told him what Luke and I had talked about.
The kids played together for a while, but Nathan wanted to joust and none of
the other kids really were interested. So he and Julia jousted a bit (running
on hobby horses towards each other and then falling on the ground) and then
tried to play with the other kids.
We worked it out. They played together when they wanted to, didn't when they
weren't interested. The meanness was minimized because Luke kept looking to
see if I was noticing what he was doing. And Nathan felt like I was
understanding him and standing up for him.
Later I learned that this poor Luke actually has a latch up high on the
outside of his bedroom door so that he cannot leave during nap our bed time.
Yikes.
We've had some rainy weather here for a while and before that we had a huge
dirt pile in our driveway (now we have a mudslick), so playing with this
particular neighbor hasn't been an option for a couple of weeks. His parents don't
let him get dirty. The distance helped, and now the intervention will
hopefully model for Nathan how to express his needs on his own.
Elizabeth
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Have A Nice Day!
I had some luck too yesterday, with the younger set. I ended up sending one friend home.
The incident involved both the friend *and* my youngest daughter so I told them that if they want to play together they are *both* going to have to behave. I sent the friend home to make it clear that inappropriate behavior from *either* of them would not be allowed. THey got to play together later in the day though...and all was fine.
As for the older set, the friends haven't been here in a couple of days, maybe because I had to be stern the other day. Thats fine with me.
Kristen
The incident involved both the friend *and* my youngest daughter so I told them that if they want to play together they are *both* going to have to behave. I sent the friend home to make it clear that inappropriate behavior from *either* of them would not be allowed. THey got to play together later in the day though...and all was fine.
As for the older set, the friends haven't been here in a couple of days, maybe because I had to be stern the other day. Thats fine with me.
Kristen
----- Original Message -----
From: ejcrewe@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2003 9:26 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Sticking it out with "friends"
I just wanted to share our experience yesterday about a group of almost five
year old boys and the play dynamics. I took Sandra's advice about talking
directly to the kids to heart and it seemed to really help.
The boy we've had trouble with has had a babysitter every afternoon for weeks
now and it brings his behavior to an unacceptable point. Nathan went outside
while I was getting Julia's shoes on, so I followed him to a yard two doors
down. He had already made it back but when I got there I heard the neighbor
boy, Luke, telling another "Let's chase Nathan and scare him." I told Luke that
Nathan really liked playing with him, but that he needed to be nicer to him
or he would decide not to play. I said that being mean and hitting and
pinching were not allowed in our family and that if he wanted to play with us, he
needed to leave that at home. I then found Nathan at a different backyard and
told him what Luke and I had talked about.
The kids played together for a while, but Nathan wanted to joust and none of
the other kids really were interested. So he and Julia jousted a bit (running
on hobby horses towards each other and then falling on the ground) and then
tried to play with the other kids.
We worked it out. They played together when they wanted to, didn't when they
weren't interested. The meanness was minimized because Luke kept looking to
see if I was noticing what he was doing. And Nathan felt like I was
understanding him and standing up for him.
Later I learned that this poor Luke actually has a latch up high on the
outside of his bedroom door so that he cannot leave during nap our bed time.
Yikes.
We've had some rainy weather here for a while and before that we had a huge
dirt pile in our driveway (now we have a mudslick), so playing with this
particular neighbor hasn't been an option for a couple of weeks. His parents don't
let him get dirty. The distance helped, and now the intervention will
hopefully model for Nathan how to express his needs on his own.
Elizabeth
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
Before I get off the topic, this sounds good:
<<The distance helped, and now the intervention will
hopefully model for Nathan how to express his needs on his own.
outside of his bedroom door so that he cannot leave during nap our bed time.
Yikes. >>
That should be illegal.
Some people I know secondarily were going through a divorce. She was living
with a childless male friend of mine who knew ZIP about kids and cared less.
Not a good house for the kids to be in, really. He/husband was living with
another woman who did want kids but didn't have any yet. That's where the two
little kids' rooms were.
I found out he had turned the doorknobs around so they could lock them from
the outside but the kids couldn't lock them from the inside.
Though I was pretty disgusted with everyone involved. Oh. The husband was
also fooling with the girlfriend of yet another friend of mine, in threesome
fashion one way or another, so I knew every person in the story. Soap opera in
my own back yard (as usual).
I sent the message through the middle friend that if I ever heard they had
locked those kids in their room I would just call social services and they
wouldn't have custody problems any more.
I'm guessing there IS a law against it, at least in some places, because if
the house got on fire the kid couldn't get out. Or even if something just
happened to the parent, stroke or sudden incapacitation of some sort.
Sandra
<<The distance helped, and now the intervention will
hopefully model for Nathan how to express his needs on his own.
>><< Later I learned that this poor Luke actually has a latch up high on the
outside of his bedroom door so that he cannot leave during nap our bed time.
Yikes. >>
That should be illegal.
Some people I know secondarily were going through a divorce. She was living
with a childless male friend of mine who knew ZIP about kids and cared less.
Not a good house for the kids to be in, really. He/husband was living with
another woman who did want kids but didn't have any yet. That's where the two
little kids' rooms were.
I found out he had turned the doorknobs around so they could lock them from
the outside but the kids couldn't lock them from the inside.
Though I was pretty disgusted with everyone involved. Oh. The husband was
also fooling with the girlfriend of yet another friend of mine, in threesome
fashion one way or another, so I knew every person in the story. Soap opera in
my own back yard (as usual).
I sent the message through the middle friend that if I ever heard they had
locked those kids in their room I would just call social services and they
wouldn't have custody problems any more.
I'm guessing there IS a law against it, at least in some places, because if
the house got on fire the kid couldn't get out. Or even if something just
happened to the parent, stroke or sudden incapacitation of some sort.
Sandra
Robyn Coburn
<<Later I learned that this poor Luke actually has a latch up high on
the
outside of his bedroom door so that he cannot leave during nap our bed
time.
Yikes.>>
Poor little guy! What if he has to make peepee? Or gets sick, or has a
bad dream. Do they use it all the time, or is it a punishment thing? I
bet it feels like punishment to him. He must feel untrusted and
untrustworthy. Poor little guy.
Robyn Coburn
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
the
outside of his bedroom door so that he cannot leave during nap our bed
time.
Yikes.>>
Poor little guy! What if he has to make peepee? Or gets sick, or has a
bad dream. Do they use it all the time, or is it a punishment thing? I
bet it feels like punishment to him. He must feel untrusted and
untrustworthy. Poor little guy.
Robyn Coburn
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
I'm guessing there IS a law against it, at least in some places, because if
the house got on fire the kid couldn't get out. Or even if something just
happened to the parent, stroke or sudden incapacitation of some sort.
If it isn't against the law, it should be. I remember the mom telling me
when the kid was out of the crib that she considered tying him to the bed, that's
what her husband's mother did. I gave her some sort of "oh, you can't be
serious" answer and forgot about it. But when I heard about the latch yesterday,
I felt awful for correcting the kid on anything! He needs so much, he just
needs. I can't imagine a night when my almost 5 year old doesn't climb in bed
with us.
Elizabeth
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
the house got on fire the kid couldn't get out. Or even if something just
happened to the parent, stroke or sudden incapacitation of some sort.
If it isn't against the law, it should be. I remember the mom telling me
when the kid was out of the crib that she considered tying him to the bed, that's
what her husband's mother did. I gave her some sort of "oh, you can't be
serious" answer and forgot about it. But when I heard about the latch yesterday,
I felt awful for correcting the kid on anything! He needs so much, he just
needs. I can't imagine a night when my almost 5 year old doesn't climb in bed
with us.
Elizabeth
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/5/2003 12:29:02 PM Eastern Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
department in CA, we were not even allowed to lock juvenile jail cells! So I doubt
it's OK for any children.
Nancy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
> I sent the message through the middle friend that if I ever heard they hadSandra, when I worked for the Juvenile Division of the local police
> locked those kids in their room I would just call social services and they
> wouldn't have custody problems any more.
>
> I'm guessing there IS a law against it, at least in some places, because if
> the house got on fire the kid couldn't get out. Or even if something just
> happened to the parent, stroke or sudden incapacitation of some sort.
>
department in CA, we were not even allowed to lock juvenile jail cells! So I doubt
it's OK for any children.
Nancy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]