Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] TCS was Safety rules..
jmcseals SEALS
This thread reminded me of the TCS list too. I recall a discussion on
knives. Someone posted about being in the kitchen and a 5 month old child
was interested in a large, sharp knife. The recommendation was to allow the
baby to explore the knife with her own hands rather than redirect her
attention or put it away. It got really freaky and scary after that. I
stuck out the entire thread just to make sure I wasn't missing something.
I'm sorry but I would not allow my 5 month old child to 'handle' a huge,
sharp knife whether I was holding her or not. Babies have very fast
reactions and I don't see how it would even be possible to safely allow a
child to hold such a thing. Someone even said that if she happened to cut
herself, she would learn 'respect' for the knife. YIKES! I ran and never
looked back.
Another time an 11 year old had a 16 year old boyfriend and was having sex.
There were actually people who said they should be left alone to make their
own 'informed' decisions. That it would be coercive to interfere. She
ended up pregnant. Call me coercive, but I wouldn't stand idly by and end
up with a pregnant 11 year old daughter, that's for sure! There is no way
an 11 year old girl is capable of truly understanding the emotional
ramifications of sex and pregnancy, much less have the ability to be a
mother. That poor child *needed* a mother herself!
Not every situation was as bad but I left that list after 6-8 months or so
feeling frightened, appalled and scared for some of the children. It seemed
rather fishy to me, also, that everything was hypothetical. That was
strange.
I did come away with a few bits of knowledge and insight, but overall, it
was an incredibly negative experience. I always wonder if I just hit that
list at a 'bad' time or if it is always like that....
Jennifer
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
knives. Someone posted about being in the kitchen and a 5 month old child
was interested in a large, sharp knife. The recommendation was to allow the
baby to explore the knife with her own hands rather than redirect her
attention or put it away. It got really freaky and scary after that. I
stuck out the entire thread just to make sure I wasn't missing something.
I'm sorry but I would not allow my 5 month old child to 'handle' a huge,
sharp knife whether I was holding her or not. Babies have very fast
reactions and I don't see how it would even be possible to safely allow a
child to hold such a thing. Someone even said that if she happened to cut
herself, she would learn 'respect' for the knife. YIKES! I ran and never
looked back.
Another time an 11 year old had a 16 year old boyfriend and was having sex.
There were actually people who said they should be left alone to make their
own 'informed' decisions. That it would be coercive to interfere. She
ended up pregnant. Call me coercive, but I wouldn't stand idly by and end
up with a pregnant 11 year old daughter, that's for sure! There is no way
an 11 year old girl is capable of truly understanding the emotional
ramifications of sex and pregnancy, much less have the ability to be a
mother. That poor child *needed* a mother herself!
Not every situation was as bad but I left that list after 6-8 months or so
feeling frightened, appalled and scared for some of the children. It seemed
rather fishy to me, also, that everything was hypothetical. That was
strange.
I did come away with a few bits of knowledge and insight, but overall, it
was an incredibly negative experience. I always wonder if I just hit that
list at a 'bad' time or if it is always like that....
Jennifer
_________________________________________________________________
MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*.
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/26/2003 3:40:26 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
jmcseals@... writes:
list! <G>
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
jmcseals@... writes:
> I did come away with a few bits of knowledge and insight, but overall, itI'm sure---no, I KNOW ! That some people think the same thing about *this*
> was an incredibly negative experience. I always wonder if I just hit that
> list at a 'bad' time or if it is always like that....
list! <G>
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/26/03 1:40:53 AM, jmcseals@... writes:
<< I'm sorry but I would not allow my 5 month old child to 'handle' a huge,
sharp knife whether I was holding her or not. >>
The TCS stuff has sounded to me as though it were written by the kind of
people who have zero social skills whatsoever. Those logician types who are good
programmers but haven't figured out how to offer someone a seat and a glass
of water, and will never figure it out.
After forming that theory, I never did read anything in their writing that
lead me to think differently.
So if they see human reactions and relations as something you could apply a
political theory to, across the board, then maybe their stuff would start to
work. But if their principle overrides all human considerations, it's not a
good thing to apply to humans.
Unschooling might work about the same way (if you squint at them both from a
distance) but with unschooling, what ends up NOT working with humans is
dumped. We're giving freedom not because freedom is somehow valuable in a vacuum,
but because a human who makes decisions in a safe but open situation, with
advice and suggestions, comes to learn
a) how to make decisions
b) how to ask for advice (as well as when to ask and whom to ask)
c) how to extend that to others, naturally.
TCS doesn't seem to apply to others. I gather that they're to protect their
children's rights at the expense of infidels who need to protect their own
rights, or suffer the consequences. (I could be wrong on that, I'm only
remembering one discussion where that was a factor, but I remember it wasn't being
promoted so much as something to spread to all manking, but something almost to
use against those outside their fold.
Sandra
<< I'm sorry but I would not allow my 5 month old child to 'handle' a huge,
sharp knife whether I was holding her or not. >>
The TCS stuff has sounded to me as though it were written by the kind of
people who have zero social skills whatsoever. Those logician types who are good
programmers but haven't figured out how to offer someone a seat and a glass
of water, and will never figure it out.
After forming that theory, I never did read anything in their writing that
lead me to think differently.
So if they see human reactions and relations as something you could apply a
political theory to, across the board, then maybe their stuff would start to
work. But if their principle overrides all human considerations, it's not a
good thing to apply to humans.
Unschooling might work about the same way (if you squint at them both from a
distance) but with unschooling, what ends up NOT working with humans is
dumped. We're giving freedom not because freedom is somehow valuable in a vacuum,
but because a human who makes decisions in a safe but open situation, with
advice and suggestions, comes to learn
a) how to make decisions
b) how to ask for advice (as well as when to ask and whom to ask)
c) how to extend that to others, naturally.
TCS doesn't seem to apply to others. I gather that they're to protect their
children's rights at the expense of infidels who need to protect their own
rights, or suffer the consequences. (I could be wrong on that, I'm only
remembering one discussion where that was a factor, but I remember it wasn't being
promoted so much as something to spread to all manking, but something almost to
use against those outside their fold.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/26/03 1:40:53 AM, jmcseals@... writes:
<< It seemed
rather fishy to me, also, that everything was hypothetical. That was
strange.
I sent my other e-mail without ever getting to my intended point, which was
that beyond the idea that they seem to have no social skills, that it seems
sometimes they don't actually have any children, or not any they care much about.
Maybe it's an elaborate justification for lack of parental instinct.
Maybe it's an elaborate hoax.
Maybe it's just libertarian propaganda/theory/jack-off.
Sandra
<< It seemed
rather fishy to me, also, that everything was hypothetical. That was
strange.
>>OH!!!
I sent my other e-mail without ever getting to my intended point, which was
that beyond the idea that they seem to have no social skills, that it seems
sometimes they don't actually have any children, or not any they care much about.
Maybe it's an elaborate justification for lack of parental instinct.
Maybe it's an elaborate hoax.
Maybe it's just libertarian propaganda/theory/jack-off.
Sandra
Tia Leschke
> I sent my other e-mail without ever getting to my intended point, whichwas
> that beyond the idea that they seem to have no social skills, that itseems
> sometimes they don't actually have any children, or not any they care muchabout.
>Actually, while I still have problems with the way they discuss things and
> Maybe it's an elaborate justification for lack of parental instinct.
> Maybe it's an elaborate hoax.
> Maybe it's just libertarian propaganda/theory/jack-off.
such, my daughter has gotten the most help there for what really seems to be
the kind of parenting we try to do here. I'm not sure why it resonates with
her, but it does. And her parenting, which was already awesome, has gotten
even better since she's been there. All I can conclude from that is
"different strokes", because we find it easy to discuss parenting now, me
from this point of view, and she from the TCS point of view.
Tia
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
saftety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Ben Franklin
leschke@...
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/26/03 1:46:13 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
<< OH!!!
I sent my other e-mail without ever getting to my intended point, which was
that beyond the idea that they seem to have no social skills, that it seems
sometimes they don't actually have any children, or not any they care much
about.
Maybe it's an elaborate justification for lack of parental instinct.
Maybe it's an elaborate hoax.
Maybe it's just libertarian propaganda/theory/jack-off.
Sandra >>
I call that intellectual masturbation.
~Aimee
SandraDodd@... writes:
<< OH!!!
I sent my other e-mail without ever getting to my intended point, which was
that beyond the idea that they seem to have no social skills, that it seems
sometimes they don't actually have any children, or not any they care much
about.
Maybe it's an elaborate justification for lack of parental instinct.
Maybe it's an elaborate hoax.
Maybe it's just libertarian propaganda/theory/jack-off.
Sandra >>
I call that intellectual masturbation.
~Aimee
jmcseals SEALS
<<*snip* or not any [children] they care much about>>>
I'd like to highlight that. My feelings exactly. I keep finding myself
wanting to rejoin that list just to obseve for a while. It's really awful
that I have such negative feelings about a philosophy intending to honor and
respect children, but I just can't seem to shake it. I scared the hell out
of my aunt back when I was on that list and told her some of the stories I
had read there. She was terrified that I was going to agree. She felt so
many of the 'parents' on that list were neglectful. I'd love to actually
meet someone who follows TCS that isn't because I left feeling much the
same.
Jennifer
_________________________________________________________________
MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I'd like to highlight that. My feelings exactly. I keep finding myself
wanting to rejoin that list just to obseve for a while. It's really awful
that I have such negative feelings about a philosophy intending to honor and
respect children, but I just can't seem to shake it. I scared the hell out
of my aunt back when I was on that list and told her some of the stories I
had read there. She was terrified that I was going to agree. She felt so
many of the 'parents' on that list were neglectful. I'd love to actually
meet someone who follows TCS that isn't because I left feeling much the
same.
Jennifer
_________________________________________________________________
MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*.
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Mary
From: <SandraDodd@...>
<<(I could be wrong on that, I'm only remembering one discussion where that
was a factor, but I remember it wasn't being promoted so much as something
to spread to all manking, but something almost to use against those outside
their fold.>>
But what about all manqueens, could it be spread to them????!!!! See,
sometimes adults come up with cute little words of their own too!
Mary B
<<(I could be wrong on that, I'm only remembering one discussion where that
was a factor, but I remember it wasn't being promoted so much as something
to spread to all manking, but something almost to use against those outside
their fold.>>
But what about all manqueens, could it be spread to them????!!!! See,
sometimes adults come up with cute little words of their own too!
Mary B
liza sabater
I agree. Most restaurant kitchens are worked by men here in NYC. When I
apprenticed at one of them here, the first thing they asked me was,
"Where's your knife?" (I had forgotten to bring it with me, ugh!) Then
my chef proceeded to share with me some horror stories about unattended
knives, blunt knives, etc. etc. Given my own accidents in the kitchen,
I would never, EVER let a 5 month old play with a knife. It's just too
dangerous.
Which takes me to the distinction between a rule and a safety measure:
A rule can be haphazard. A safety measure is based on fact --a 5 month
old does not have the motor skills to handle a knife.
Liza
On Monday, May 26, 2003, at 03:39 America/New_York, jmcseals SEALS
wrote:
apprenticed at one of them here, the first thing they asked me was,
"Where's your knife?" (I had forgotten to bring it with me, ugh!) Then
my chef proceeded to share with me some horror stories about unattended
knives, blunt knives, etc. etc. Given my own accidents in the kitchen,
I would never, EVER let a 5 month old play with a knife. It's just too
dangerous.
Which takes me to the distinction between a rule and a safety measure:
A rule can be haphazard. A safety measure is based on fact --a 5 month
old does not have the motor skills to handle a knife.
Liza
On Monday, May 26, 2003, at 03:39 America/New_York, jmcseals SEALS
wrote:
><image.tiff>
> This thread reminded me of the TCS list too. I recall a discussion on
> knives. Someone posted about being in the kitchen and a 5 month old
> child
> was interested in a large, sharp knife. The recommendation was to
> allow the
> baby to explore the knife with her own hands rather than redirect her
> attention or put it away. It got really freaky and scary after that.
> I
> stuck out the entire thread just to make sure I wasn't missing
> something.
>
> I'm sorry but I would not allow my 5 month old child to 'handle' a
> huge,
> sharp knife whether I was holding her or not. Babies have very fast
> reactions and I don't see how it would even be possible to safely
> allow a
> child to hold such a thing. Someone even said that if she happened to
> cut
> herself, she would learn 'respect' for the knife. YIKES! I ran and
> never
> looked back.
>
> Another time an 11 year old had a 16 year old boyfriend and was having
> sex.
> There were actually people who said they should be left alone to make
> their
> own 'informed' decisions. That it would be coercive to interfere. She
> ended up pregnant. Call me coercive, but I wouldn't stand idly by and
> end
> up with a pregnant 11 year old daughter, that's for sure! There is
> no way
> an 11 year old girl is capable of truly understanding the emotional
> ramifications of sex and pregnancy, much less have the ability to be a
> mother. That poor child *needed* a mother herself!
>
> Not every situation was as bad but I left that list after 6-8 months
> or so
> feeling frightened, appalled and scared for some of the children. It
> seemed
> rather fishy to me, also, that everything was hypothetical. That was
> strange.
>
> I did come away with a few bits of knowledge and insight, but overall,
> it
> was an incredibly negative experience. I always wonder if I just hit
> that
> list at a 'bad' time or if it is always like that....
>
> Jennifer
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*.
> http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> ~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
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In a message dated 5/26/03 4:40:27 PM, mummy124@... writes:
<< manking, but something almost to use against those outside
their fold.>>
But what about all manqueens, could it be spread to them????!!!! See,
sometimes adults come up with cute little words of their own too!
It was just a little typol.
Stop lagghing at me!
There's a line on a song on the new Weird Al album about "King of Queens" and
being surprised that Richard Simmons wasn't in it. Good album. "Poodle
Hat."
Sandra
<< manking, but something almost to use against those outside
their fold.>>
But what about all manqueens, could it be spread to them????!!!! See,
sometimes adults come up with cute little words of their own too!
>>You're manking me angry now!
It was just a little typol.
Stop lagghing at me!
There's a line on a song on the new Weird Al album about "King of Queens" and
being surprised that Richard Simmons wasn't in it. Good album. "Poodle
Hat."
Sandra
Mary
From: SandraDodd@...
<<There's a line on a song on the new Weird Al album about "King of Queens"
and
being surprised that Richard Simmons wasn't in it. Good album. "Poodle
Hat.">>
That's funny. I love Richard Simmons. Especially when he's on Letterman!
Mary B
<<There's a line on a song on the new Weird Al album about "King of Queens"
and
being surprised that Richard Simmons wasn't in it. Good album. "Poodle
Hat.">>
That's funny. I love Richard Simmons. Especially when he's on Letterman!
Mary B
Robyn Coburn
I have not been to the TCS lists, but have read the theoretical stuff
posted online - there was some sort of disclaimer about it being a draft
version. Having already heard some critiques on this list, I guess I
wasn't going into it "pure and unbiased". I found it interesting and
helpful to me to examine their definition of coercion and the idea that
genuine creative thought does not exist in a coercive atmosphere.
However it is no more helpful, in fact probably less useful, than the
simple idea of having and expressing the real reason for a request,
rather than an arbitrary one. I think Joyce posted about the real
difference between TCS and Unschooling - no coercion is another rule,
unschooling deals with principles. People think unschooling is
neglectful also, but we have found that we are more engaged with our
children through unschooling than many other parents may be.
The TCS folk keep repeating that the parents need to get what they want
too, or they are in a state of coercion as well. It feels to me like
someone in the endless discussion just gets tired first. Some of the
same kind of extreme situations - "what would you do if they wanted to
vivisect the cat?" - are asked about unschooling by the uninitiated.
They find the "that never happens" answer to be disingenuous, even
though to us it has been absolutely borne out by our collective
experience.
Just because some people grow up to be criminals doesn't mean I have to
put Jayn in jail. I remember some movie about a newspaper with Michael
Keaton and Marisa Tomei where he was talking about how he loved her so
much he would run into a burning building to save her, and she said but
the building is never going to burn down, and she need him to be there
in the everyday of life. (Of course being a movie there was a
metaphorical burning building - and he was late!) I can't live my whole
life expecting the outlandish to occur - I'll miss the ordinary todays.
It may happen, but I remember Douglas Adams in "Long Dark Tea Time of
the Soul" - the Improbable being more unlikely than the Impossible.
Robyn Coburn
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
posted online - there was some sort of disclaimer about it being a draft
version. Having already heard some critiques on this list, I guess I
wasn't going into it "pure and unbiased". I found it interesting and
helpful to me to examine their definition of coercion and the idea that
genuine creative thought does not exist in a coercive atmosphere.
However it is no more helpful, in fact probably less useful, than the
simple idea of having and expressing the real reason for a request,
rather than an arbitrary one. I think Joyce posted about the real
difference between TCS and Unschooling - no coercion is another rule,
unschooling deals with principles. People think unschooling is
neglectful also, but we have found that we are more engaged with our
children through unschooling than many other parents may be.
The TCS folk keep repeating that the parents need to get what they want
too, or they are in a state of coercion as well. It feels to me like
someone in the endless discussion just gets tired first. Some of the
same kind of extreme situations - "what would you do if they wanted to
vivisect the cat?" - are asked about unschooling by the uninitiated.
They find the "that never happens" answer to be disingenuous, even
though to us it has been absolutely borne out by our collective
experience.
Just because some people grow up to be criminals doesn't mean I have to
put Jayn in jail. I remember some movie about a newspaper with Michael
Keaton and Marisa Tomei where he was talking about how he loved her so
much he would run into a burning building to save her, and she said but
the building is never going to burn down, and she need him to be there
in the everyday of life. (Of course being a movie there was a
metaphorical burning building - and he was late!) I can't live my whole
life expecting the outlandish to occur - I'll miss the ordinary todays.
It may happen, but I remember Douglas Adams in "Long Dark Tea Time of
the Soul" - the Improbable being more unlikely than the Impossible.
Robyn Coburn
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Have A Nice Day!
RIGHT ON.
Kristen
Kristen
----- Original Message -----
From: Robyn Coburn
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2003 12:06 AM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] TCS and a brief ramble
I have not been to the TCS lists, but have read the theoretical stuff
posted online - there was some sort of disclaimer about it being a draft
version. Having already heard some critiques on this list, I guess I
wasn't going into it "pure and unbiased". I found it interesting and
helpful to me to examine their definition of coercion and the idea that
genuine creative thought does not exist in a coercive atmosphere.
However it is no more helpful, in fact probably less useful, than the
simple idea of having and expressing the real reason for a request,
rather than an arbitrary one. I think Joyce posted about the real
difference between TCS and Unschooling - no coercion is another rule,
unschooling deals with principles. People think unschooling is
neglectful also, but we have found that we are more engaged with our
children through unschooling than many other parents may be.
The TCS folk keep repeating that the parents need to get what they want
too, or they are in a state of coercion as well. It feels to me like
someone in the endless discussion just gets tired first. Some of the
same kind of extreme situations - "what would you do if they wanted to
vivisect the cat?" - are asked about unschooling by the uninitiated.
They find the "that never happens" answer to be disingenuous, even
though to us it has been absolutely borne out by our collective
experience.
Just because some people grow up to be criminals doesn't mean I have to
put Jayn in jail. I remember some movie about a newspaper with Michael
Keaton and Marisa Tomei where he was talking about how he loved her so
much he would run into a burning building to save her, and she said but
the building is never going to burn down, and she need him to be there
in the everyday of life. (Of course being a movie there was a
metaphorical burning building - and he was late!) I can't live my whole
life expecting the outlandish to occur - I'll miss the ordinary todays.
It may happen, but I remember Douglas Adams in "Long Dark Tea Time of
the Soul" - the Improbable being more unlikely than the Impossible.
Robyn Coburn
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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