susan

Joshua Heath wrote:

> this is a philosophy with which to approach parenting (be firm, clear, and
> loving all at the same time) which distills
> down into guidelines about how to deal with the every-day events of living
> with our children. I can't possibly do it justice in one little post.
> Essentially it just talks about not yo-yoing back and forth between
> permissive(and loving) and authoritarian(but not loving), by adopting the
> attitude that it is possible to be both loving, supporting, (ie not scolding
> ever) AND steadfastly clear about boundaries and consequences at the same
> time.

> There are a lot of ideas about how to handle boundareis and
> consequences for breaking the boundaries that at first seem a little "harsh"
> but when combined with the gently loving way she advocates, are rather (for
> me personally) very effective. Concepst such as no second and third
> chances, no negotiating with an unreasonable child, which I had always
> thought of as over controlling, now make perfect sence to me. Anyways, as I
> said I cant possibly sum it all up in a neat little package...

hi joshua,

i think personal boundaries are necessary no matter what age the person(s) whom
you're living with, but i am very suspicious of consequence. if they are not
natural (i.e. touch a hot pan and you'll burn yourself) or directly dealing
with issues of safety (i.e. running into the road), imo, they are just
rules/controls but with a different name.

for me unschooling is about self-motivation on all levels. our 4 yo is very
proud that he helps out and we've never made him. he also refuses much more
than he helps:) we just keep providing the opportunity for him to join in - a
family adventure of cleaning a kind of 'whistle while you work' deal. when he
makes a mess, especially after i specifically asked him not to do it, i will
point out the necessity of cleaning right away. for example last night he
mashed grapes in the tub, i asked him to clean it up. he refused. all i said
was i didn't think that i should have to clean up something i had asked him not
to do, but it needed to be clean so i would happily do it. he promptly cleaned
while we talked about what he was doing (i.e. getting the right temp water,
what to use etc.).

there were no consequence because i would have cleaned it and that would have
been the end - no guilt trips, no punishment just a simple communication of my
take on it, as he would do if he felt i had imposed upon him. we're a family.
we communicate everything including our frustration but we never give any kind
of rewards, even in the form of a negative -i.e. punishments - no report cards
of any kind.

we do loss our tempers ( we are painfully human:) and rene' does push to find
our limits which he succeeds at with great skill:) this for me falls in the
realm of boundaries and personal dynamics and is just life. so the best way
to handle it is to be exactly who you are. a simple and honest approach. let
them know who you are and where you're at so they will do the same.

> Suffice it to say, I highly recommend purchasing the book, or looking for it
> at your local library.
>
> My children are respondig to the tougher consequences for getting out of
> line by surprising me with more responsable, capable, and self-motivated
> behavior. For instance, they now remember to put their tooth brushes away
> and wipe up any spilled toothpaste after brushing, and they dont fuss about
> having to brush after breakfast, they can clean up their toys with less and
> less direction from me... Before I used to stand over their shoulders
> instructing them on each move.
>
> Hope that helps a little,
> Joshua
>

it's great that your kids are having a positive response to your new
approach. i think i'll have to read the book because it sounds too
authoritarian for my taste but it would be unfair for me to assume that. i'm
curious if your kids are displaying obedience or free will? and if this new
approach will be of value to them when they become adults? this is all very
new for me because all i have to fall back o is what not to do.

-susan
austin,tx

Joshua Heath

Amy, after reading the insightful replies Buzz and Brooke posted, I thought
I would share as well. As a new hameschooler myself, I am dealing with
a-lot of the same things you spoke of. One being the house..., and the
other (I am not sure this is what you spoke of exactly, but it was/is an
issue for me) is power struggles...
What I have done is to start involving the boys in the housework to a much
more extensive level. It is making my life MUCH saner... and amazingly they
are very proud of their efforts, and seem happier over all..
Also, I am starting to use more consistent boundaries and guidelines for
behavior expectations... I am scouring the pages of "parachutes for parents"
(Bobbie Sandoz) getting great inspiration from her ideas....
This seems to have improved things considerably around our house, and in my
psyche. I was in the exact same place... getting run down and exhausted and
stressed out!
----- Original Message -----
From: Campbell & Wyman <brynlee@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, March 06, 2000 6:39 AM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Worries and Concerns (was old timers..)


> From: Campbell & Wyman <brynlee@...>
>
> Hi Amy,
>
> I loved Buzz' response. Ditto there.
>
> In retrospect , I think that being worried when you are starting something
> new is pretty healthy. After all, worry comes from caring and wanting to
do
> the right thing. In the case of our children, I think worry comes part and
> parcel with the job of parenting. We want to make sure that we are not
> 'missing' a piece of the learning pie. We don't want to mess up so we
worry.
>
> Time will help. Reading a lot about home education will help (there were
> few histories written about homelearning familes when I started but there
> is a proliferation now!). But the most important thing is to have your own
> person mantra to remind yourself to accept how you feel as normal. Any new
> job, any new relationship of merit will cause you to worry and
think..."am
> I doing the right thing? am I doing too much? am I doing too little? what
> if it doesn't work out?" Things are no different with homelearning, but
> personally, after what I have seen in our family, it is only a win-win
> situation. There are ups-and-downs-and-in-betweens in the beginning just
> like any new job . But things settle down over the years and the
> being/learning together becomes second nature. The secret is to let go
and
> accept your 'stage' of your 'new job'. Remember that "this too will pass".
>
> If you have done a thorough job of convincing your family that this is the
> right thing I would assume that you know the pros of homelearning. I think
> that you need to listen to the messages that you gave them. I kept a
> journal at the beginning and write down all the incredible learning
moments
> , especially those where I was a spectator or facilitator. I would reread
> these and they would buoy me up on the days where the self-doubt would
nag
> the loudest. But time was the ultimate salve for me.
>
> Why does your daughter want to go back to school? Maybe she is worried
> too!!! This may be a place for you to sit down and have a private talk to
> find out what her worries are...some of them may be the same as yours.
> You could use this as an opportunity to share your fears and move beyond
> them.
>
> Tell us how things are going and send more specific questions. We will try
> to help you through this period.
> I would say that most of us have been there...you are not alone.
>
> Big hugs from
> Brooke in BC
>
>
> At 08:23 AM 3/6/00 -0500, you wrote:
> >From: "K WORTHEN" <kworthen@...>
> >
> >Brooke,
> > You wrote that in the begining you were worried yourself
about
> >homeschooling. What got you beyond this? I too am very worried. Probably
> >more than I'm willing to admit. I've spent so much time convincing
everyone
> >from dh to mil to my mom that this is the best thing, but I'm not so sure
> >I've convinced myself. Any pointers would be great.
> >Amy Worthen
> >----- Original Message -----
>
> >> From: Campbell & Wyman <brynlee@...>
> >>
> >> At first they were worried (I translated that as a normal
response...heck!
> >> I had it too in the beginning) so I inundated them with every wonderful
> >> article and book that I found regarding family-centred learning and
> >> home-schooling. We had many 'discussions' and it took time for them to
> >> totally accept our choice. But I kept reminding them that the bottom
line
> >> for us was that the girls were loved and nurtured in a stimulating and
> >> encouraging way. We love learning, we love books and we love our
children!
> >> A perfect mix...and the proof is in the pudding as they have grown into
> >> self-motivated learners (they are 11 and 9).
> >
> brynlee@...
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> GET A NEXTCARD VISA, in 30 seconds! Get rates as low as 0.0%
> Intro or 9.9% Fixed APR and no hidden fees. Apply NOW!
> http://click.egroups.com/1/937/5/_/448294/_/952353733/
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
>
>

libbygirl

Joshua,
"Parachutes for Parents"??? Tell me more! I am a single unschooling mother
of four and can use all the sanity-saving ideas I can get! LOL


Regards,
Michelle

K WORTHEN

Thanks so much to all of you for your support. I really need it right now.
Keep it coming. I can't wait for dh to get home from work so he can read all
these posts (yes, I'm keeping all of them). I'm sure your words of
encouragment will help him too.
Amy
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joshua Heath" <heathfam@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, March 06, 2000 7:23 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Worries and Concerns (was old timers..)


> From: "Joshua Heath" <heathfam@...>
>
> Amy, after reading the insightful replies Buzz and Brooke posted, I
thought
> I would share as well. As a new hameschooler myself, I am dealing with
> a-lot of the same things you spoke of. One being the house..., and the
> other (I am not sure this is what you spoke of exactly, but it was/is an
> issue for me) is power struggles...
> What I have done is to start involving the boys in the housework to a much
> more extensive level. It is making my life MUCH saner... and amazingly
they
> are very proud of their efforts, and seem happier over all..
> Also, I am starting to use more consistent boundaries and guidelines for
> behavior expectations... I am scouring the pages of "parachutes for
parents"
> (Bobbie Sandoz) getting great inspiration from her ideas....
> This seems to have improved things considerably around our house, and in
my
> psyche. I was in the exact same place... getting run down and exhausted
and
> stressed out!
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Campbell & Wyman <brynlee@...>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Monday, March 06, 2000 6:39 AM
> Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Worries and Concerns (was old timers..)
>
>
> > From: Campbell & Wyman <brynlee@...>
> >
> > Hi Amy,
> >
> > I loved Buzz' response. Ditto there.
> >
> > In retrospect , I think that being worried when you are starting
something
> > new is pretty healthy. After all, worry comes from caring and wanting to
> do
> > the right thing. In the case of our children, I think worry comes part
and
> > parcel with the job of parenting. We want to make sure that we are not
> > 'missing' a piece of the learning pie. We don't want to mess up so we
> worry.
> >
> > Time will help. Reading a lot about home education will help (there were
> > few histories written about homelearning familes when I started but
there
> > is a proliferation now!). But the most important thing is to have your
own
> > person mantra to remind yourself to accept how you feel as normal. Any
new
> > job, any new relationship of merit will cause you to worry and
> think..."am
> > I doing the right thing? am I doing too much? am I doing too little?
what
> > if it doesn't work out?" Things are no different with homelearning, but
> > personally, after what I have seen in our family, it is only a win-win
> > situation. There are ups-and-downs-and-in-betweens in the beginning just
> > like any new job . But things settle down over the years and the
> > being/learning together becomes second nature. The secret is to let go
> and
> > accept your 'stage' of your 'new job'. Remember that "this too will
pass".
> >
> > If you have done a thorough job of convincing your family that this is
the
> > right thing I would assume that you know the pros of homelearning. I
think
> > that you need to listen to the messages that you gave them. I kept a
> > journal at the beginning and write down all the incredible learning
> moments
> > , especially those where I was a spectator or facilitator. I would
reread
> > these and they would buoy me up on the days where the self-doubt would
> nag
> > the loudest. But time was the ultimate salve for me.
> >
> > Why does your daughter want to go back to school? Maybe she is worried
> > too!!! This may be a place for you to sit down and have a private talk
to
> > find out what her worries are...some of them may be the same as yours.
> > You could use this as an opportunity to share your fears and move beyond
> > them.
> >
> > Tell us how things are going and send more specific questions. We will
try
> > to help you through this period.
> > I would say that most of us have been there...you are not alone.
> >
> > Big hugs from
> > Brooke in BC
> >
> >
> > At 08:23 AM 3/6/00 -0500, you wrote:
> > >From: "K WORTHEN" <kworthen@...>
> > >
> > >Brooke,
> > > You wrote that in the begining you were worried yourself
> about
> > >homeschooling. What got you beyond this? I too am very worried.
Probably
> > >more than I'm willing to admit. I've spent so much time convincing
> everyone
> > >from dh to mil to my mom that this is the best thing, but I'm not so
sure
> > >I've convinced myself. Any pointers would be great.
> > >Amy Worthen
> > >----- Original Message -----
> >
> > >> From: Campbell & Wyman <brynlee@...>
> > >>
> > >> At first they were worried (I translated that as a normal
> response...heck!
> > >> I had it too in the beginning) so I inundated them with every
wonderful
> > >> article and book that I found regarding family-centred learning and
> > >> home-schooling. We had many 'discussions' and it took time for them
to
> > >> totally accept our choice. But I kept reminding them that the bottom
> line
> > >> for us was that the girls were loved and nurtured in a stimulating
and
> > >> encouraging way. We love learning, we love books and we love our
> children!
> > >> A perfect mix...and the proof is in the pudding as they have grown
into
> > >> self-motivated learners (they are 11 and 9).
> > >
> > brynlee@...
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > GET A NEXTCARD VISA, in 30 seconds! Get rates as low as 0.0%
> > Intro or 9.9% Fixed APR and no hidden fees. Apply NOW!
> > http://click.egroups.com/1/937/5/_/448294/_/952353733/
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> > Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> GET A NEXTCARD VISA, in 30 seconds! Get rates
> as low as 0.0% Intro APR and no hidden fees.
> Apply NOW!
> http://click.egroups.com/1/975/5/_/448294/_/952389306/
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
>

Joshua Heath

> From: "libbygirl" <libbygirl@...>
>
> Joshua,
> "Parachutes for Parents"??? Tell me more! I am a single unschooling mother
> of four and can use all the sanity-saving ideas I can get! LOL
>
>
> Regards,
> Michelle
>
Michelle, I can not say enough about this book right now. Has anyone esle
on the list utilized it? I am not sure yet that I agree with her on every
piont, but there is enough USEFUL info in this book to cause a mini
revolution in the way I parent. I have never come across a book that makes
things so unbelievably clear. Most parenting books are one persons ideas of
how to deal with parenting... this is a philosophy with which to approach
parenting (be firm, clear, and loving all at the same time) which distills
down into guidelines about how to deal with the every-day events of living
with our children. I can't possibly do it justice in one little post.
Essentially it just talks about not yo-yoing back and forth between
permissive(and loving) and authoritarian(but not loving), by adopting the
attitude that it is possible to be both loving, supporting, (ie not scolding
ever) AND steadfastly clear about boundaries and consequences at the same
time. There are a lot of ideas about how to handle boundareis and
consequences for breaking the boundaries that at first seem a little "harsh"
but when combined with the gently loving way she advocates, are rather (for
me personally) very effective. Concepst such as no second and third
chances, no negotiating with an unreasonable child, which I had always
thought of as over controlling, now make perfect sence to me. Anyways, as I
said I cant possibly sum it all up in a neat little package...

Suffice it to say, I highly recommend purchasing the book, or looking for it
at your local library.

My children are respondig to the tougher consequences for getting out of
line by surprising me with more responsable, capable, and self-motivated
behavior. For instance, they now remember to put their tooth brushes away
and wipe up any spilled toothpaste after brushing, and they dont fuss about
having to brush after breakfast, they can clean up their toys with less and
less direction from me... Before I used to stand over their shoulders
instructing them on each move.

Hope that helps a little,
Joshua

Joshua Heath

The one I have (on loan from the library) has "raising children for a better
world" tagged onto the title. It is the 2nd edetion of the book, printed in
1995. I am sure they are all much the same... I would just look for the
most recent one.
----- Original Message -----
From: libbygirl <libbygirl@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, March 06, 2000 9:25 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Worries and Concerns (was old timers..)


> From: "libbygirl" <libbygirl@...>
>
> Joshua,
> well I am now bound and deermined to track that book down! Our local
library
> stocks 3 books by the same title but one is :learning to parent with
wisdom
> or something like that and the other two also have other parts to the
title!
> Should I just order all three or is there one particular book that I
should
> be looking for? They are all by Bobbie Sandoz.
>
>
> Regards,
> Michelle
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> GET A NEXTCARD VISA, in 30 seconds! Get rates
> as low as 0.0% Intro APR and no hidden fees.
> Apply NOW!
> http://click.egroups.com/1/975/5/_/448294/_/952406175/
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
>
>

libbygirl

Joshua,
well I am now bound and deermined to track that book down! Our local library
stocks 3 books by the same title but one is :learning to parent with wisdom
or something like that and the other two also have other parts to the title!
Should I just order all three or is there one particular book that I should
be looking for? They are all by Bobbie Sandoz.


Regards,
Michelle

libbygirl

Joshua,
Cool! Thanks for the very fast reply. I have now requested it (Gosh, I love
on-line libraries!!) Where are you in the world? I am in New Zealand and it
is 6:46 pm here on Tuesday.


Regards,
Michelle

Joshua Heath

I am in Kelowna, British Columbia, Canada. Its late now... just about to
call it a night (11:30pm)
Cheers,
Joshua
----- Original Message -----
From: libbygirl <libbygirl@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, March 06, 2000 9:46 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Worries and Concerns (was old timers..)


> From: "libbygirl" <libbygirl@...>
>
> Joshua,
> Cool! Thanks for the very fast reply. I have now requested it (Gosh, I
love
> on-line libraries!!) Where are you in the world? I am in New Zealand and
it
> is 6:46 pm here on Tuesday.
>
>
> Regards,
> Michelle
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> GET A NEXTCARD VISA, in 30 seconds! Get rates
> as low as 0.0% Intro APR and no hidden fees.
> Apply NOW!
> http://click.egroups.com/1/975/5/_/448294/_/952407462/
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
>
>

susan

Joshua Heath wrote:
My initial tendancy as a parent was to operate strongly from the perspective
that they were children were little people and should be treated for all
intensive purposes as much the same as adults as possible.  A very good
friend of mine has an older child, and he sort of passed this perspective on
to me.  I still hold on to it dearly, as a reminder not to be patronizing or
over protective.
hi joshua,

i have two books i would highly recommend.

the first: punished by rewards: the trouble with gold stars, incentive plans, a's, praise, and other bribes by alfie kohn.  here's an exert:

'the great majority of books and seminars on bringing up children share three features, all of which are generally taken for granted.   first, more talk is devoted to eliminating unwanted behavior than to promoting positive values and skills;  second, step-by-step plans are provided for parents to implement;  and third, copious use is made of punishment ("consequences") and/or rewards ('positive reinforcements")....

each of these three features is connected to the other two.   someone who chooses to focus on stopping bad behavior is apt to prefer a program that describes exactly what to do and say, and conversely, someone who wants to follow a recipe is apt to think in terms of day-to-day challenges rather than long-term values.   both orientations, meanwhile, seem consistent with tactics that emphasize extrinsic control.' (pg 228)

'my hope, though, is that even the reader who doesn't accept every argument offered here, or who has doubts about the import of one or another piece of research, may nonetheless decide that there is enough evidence to justify calling into question a set of beliefs and practices that affect us deeply every day of our lives.  (pg 284)

the second: giving the love that heals: a guide for parents by harville hendrix and helen hunt.  here's an exert from this book:

'the conscious parent meets the needs of the child by providing safety, support, and structure for the child as she moves through each developmental stage.   he is attuned to the unique personality and temperament of his child and able to see what his child needs as she grows and changes.   he is educated about the developmental stages of children and is able to stay alert and flexible in interactions with her.

he is intentional in his interactions with his child, rather than reactive.  and this intentionality can be see in his use of intentional dialogue in conversation, especially when the dialogue is difficult.   he takes the processes of intentional dialogue - mirroring, validating, and emphasizing - and finds ways to make these responses part of his daily interactions with his child.

he has tools for dealing with his child's frustrations, anger, and regressions that turn these potentially disruptive emotional responses into occasions for strengthening the child's wholeness and maintaining her connection to her parents, her immediate environment, and the larger world.  and he has ways of promoting laughter, creative expression, spiritual depth, and moral character as his child begins to express the journey through life.'  (pg38)

BUT, still... perhaps it is in part because I have been unclear about always
treating them with all the respect and dignity of an adult friend.... I find
myself searching for a way out of the power struggles with children that are
acting difficult and uncooperatively.
i think everyone who is attempting to raise their children in a way that is a departure from the way they were raised has this same issue/struggle.  once a child moves out of the infant stage autonomy comes to the fore and when this is threatened a power struggle ensues - in our house this happens on a daily basis:)  but as these two books point out the positive behavior and the parent/child connection/relationship must remain the most important goals because these are the things that will foster good 'long-term values' - the ultimate goal of any parent.  ('a forest for the trees' sort of deal)
And I am led to the conclusion that
parental authority is still IMPORTANT, even in the midst of a treating our
children with all the RESPECT of an adult, I still think they need me to be
an unwavering authority and "rule maker" on some things other than just
safety and personal boundary issues.
i do believe that parents hold the authority and over time slowly gives more and more of it over to the child as the child is able to handle it (the latin educare, i'm told, means 'bring to adulthood').  but i also believe that it is very easy to abuse this power and justify this 'abuse'.    that's why i think it is crucial that this authority be balanced with mutual understanding (between parent and child), so that mutual trust is fostered and maintained.  without the balance of these basic component, the parent/child relationship begins to erode deeply effecting all other relationships - present and future.
In essence I think I still need to
have some, carefully thought out, expectations of their behavior.  For
instance, if my child was being cruel to a defenceless animal... I would be
responsable to protect the animal and to offer my child 1. a clear boundary
about how to treat animals and reasons behind that 2. a dis-incintive to
continue the inappropriate behaviour(consequence for stepping over that
boundary again), and 3. discusing or checking in to see what could be bihind
the behaviour so that attention can be given to helping to solve any
underlying problem that might be making the child angry...
i agree with you except with #2.   i would teach compassion and empathy - bring into focus the positve/desired behavior rather than casting the attention on 'eliminating the bad behavior'.
 
I just cant help but think that without this kind of guidance a child will
become willful and stubborn in spite of being treated with as much love and
respect and resonableness as possible.  I could be entirely wrong here... it
is just my experience so far in life.


actually much research has shown that when the focus is put on the bad behavior and the child is punished or given consequences the child actually becomes less cooperative and more willful and stubborn - personally i have experienced this with rene'.  i am very controlling by training and have spent more hours than i care to count in power struggles and have found that cooperation is easier to attain when the child/person has the free will and chooses it rather than be coerced into it and to be honest this is is true for me as well.   i am much happier to cooperate if i'm approached via a request instead of a demand.  aflie kohn whole book is about this point.

guidance, imo, must be done in the form of modeling and it must be done within the context of fostering the parent/child relationship.  if this relationship is put on the 'back burner' for any reason the child will begin to feel a loss of connection and feel a threat to their developing autonomy.   and if this process of autonomy is repeatedly threaten then their process of achieving adulthood will be thwarted and power struggles increase. jmo

susan
austin,tx
'unity through diversity'

susan

Joshua Heath wrote:

Susan...   Wow, you are very effective at communicating your ideas!

yes much to my husband's dismay  lol

am not suggesting you are overly permissive either... I am just bringing up the point that as an authority figure, you must enforce boundaries somehow...

my son is very clear on the fact that i have 'ultimate veto power'.  for example he really wants a gameboy color and we are not getting one but have told him that we are willing to 'convert' our bathroom into a 'chemistry lab' and that makes him happy - he is always 'doing experiments' so i know that this would give him at least as much joy as a gameboy color.  also i'm very quick tempered (not something i'm proud of but if you want honesty from your kids i believe the parent needs to pave the way)  and have little patience for acts of manipulation, so clear boundaries are drawn.  it's just that i limited the boundaries to really big issues.  like spitting i will not tolerate it and my son is very clear about this:)

when rene' started to crawl i set it in my mind that i wanted the 'yes's' to far out weigh the 'no's' and we've succeeded thus far.  so don't get me wrong,  boundaries - which are often articulated by a firm 'no' - are not only good for the parent but the child learns 2 really important things -1) to respect another's rights and  2) they learn not to allow another person to take advantage of them i.e. that they themselves have rights and should stand up for them if need be.  imo since human nature is so complex it makes it very difficult to have a simple stance - but if we were able to make a simple stance life would be very boring:)

Also, I now believe it is important for children to "surrender" to their (hopefully loving and caring) parental authority. This is a little difficult for me to articulate... but I really think there are situations where the most courageous and loving thing to be done as a parent is to stand up to my child lovingly but firmly and without protecting him.  I could go on.... :-)

regarding the concept of 'surrender' (which sounds very christian to me), if this is how you truly feel then imo it would be the right way for you to be.  there is lot of rhetoric and tons of opinions floating around but for me the bottom line is - each parent needs to be true to themselves and to their own world view.  we can listen to each others opinions and have good and exciting discussions and perhaps expand our own views but ultimate we must do what makes sense to us as individuals.

-susan
austin,tx
'unity through diversity'

Joshua Heath

Susan,
I really appreciate what you said. It is an issue I have thought long and
hard about power and control issues - not with much in the way of black and
white solutions. I am interested on what others on the list have to say
about thier philosophy in this area.

My initial tendancy as a parent was to operate strongly from the perspective
that they were children were little people and should be treated for all
intensive purposes as much the same as adults as possible. A very good
friend of mine has an older child, and he sort of passed this perspective on
to me. I still hold on to it dearly, as a reminder not to be patronizing or
over protective.

BUT, still... perhaps it is in part because I have been unclear about always
treating them with all the respect and dignity of an adult friend.... I find
myself searching for a way out of the power struggles with children that are
acting difficult and uncooperatively. And I am led to the conclusion that
parental authority is still IMPORTANT, even in the midst of a treating our
children with all the RESPECT of an adult, I still think they need me to be
an unwavering authority and "rule maker" on some things other than just
safety and personal boundary issues. In essence I think I still need to
have some, carefully thought out, expectations of their behavior. For
instance, if my child was being cruel to a defenceless animal... I would be
responsable to protect the animal and to offer my child 1. a clear boundary
about how to treat animals and reasons behind that 2. a dis-incintive to
continue the inappropriate behaviour(consequence for stepping over that
boundary again), and 3. discusing or checking in to see what could be bihind
the behaviour so that attention can be given to helping to solve any
underlying problem that might be making the child angry...
I just cant help but think that without this kind of guidance a child will
become willful and stubborn in spite of being treated with as much love and
respect and resonableness as possible. I could be entirely wrong here... it
is just my experience so far in life.

I am interested to hear what others have to say... and I by no means mean to
imply that there is one way of doing things that is the right way for
everyone... I am only trying to find a way that woks best for our family...
sincerely,
Joshua
From: susan <fxfireob@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, March 06, 2000 2:53 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Worries and Concerns (was old timers..)


> From: susan <fxfireob@...>
>
> Joshua Heath wrote:
>
> > this is a philosophy with which to approach parenting (be firm, clear,
and
> > loving all at the same time) which distills
> > down into guidelines about how to deal with the every-day events of
living
> > with our children. I can't possibly do it justice in one little post.
> > Essentially it just talks about not yo-yoing back and forth between
> > permissive(and loving) and authoritarian(but not loving), by adopting
the
> > attitude that it is possible to be both loving, supporting, (ie not
scolding
> > ever) AND steadfastly clear about boundaries and consequences at the
same
> > time.
>
> > There are a lot of ideas about how to handle boundareis and
> > consequences for breaking the boundaries that at first seem a little
"harsh"
> > but when combined with the gently loving way she advocates, are rather
(for
> > me personally) very effective. Concepst such as no second and third
> > chances, no negotiating with an unreasonable child, which I had always
> > thought of as over controlling, now make perfect sence to me. Anyways,
as I
> > said I cant possibly sum it all up in a neat little package...
>
> hi joshua,
>
> i think personal boundaries are necessary no matter what age the person(s)
whom
> you're living with, but i am very suspicious of consequence. if they are
not
> natural (i.e. touch a hot pan and you'll burn yourself) or directly
dealing
> with issues of safety (i.e. running into the road), imo, they are just
> rules/controls but with a different name.
>
> for me unschooling is about self-motivation on all levels. our 4 yo is
very
> proud that he helps out and we've never made him. he also refuses much
more
> than he helps:) we just keep providing the opportunity for him to join
in - a
> family adventure of cleaning a kind of 'whistle while you work' deal.
when he
> makes a mess, especially after i specifically asked him not to do it, i
will
> point out the necessity of cleaning right away. for example last night he
> mashed grapes in the tub, i asked him to clean it up. he refused. all i
said
> was i didn't think that i should have to clean up something i had asked
him not
> to do, but it needed to be clean so i would happily do it. he promptly
cleaned
> while we talked about what he was doing (i.e. getting the right temp
water,
> what to use etc.).
>
> there were no consequence because i would have cleaned it and that would
have
> been the end - no guilt trips, no punishment just a simple communication
of my
> take on it, as he would do if he felt i had imposed upon him. we're a
family.
> we communicate everything including our frustration but we never give any
kind
> of rewards, even in the form of a negative -i.e. punishments - no report
cards
> of any kind.
>
> we do loss our tempers ( we are painfully human:) and rene' does push to
find
> our limits which he succeeds at with great skill:) this for me falls in
the
> realm of boundaries and personal dynamics and is just life. so the best
way
> to handle it is to be exactly who you are. a simple and honest approach.
let
> them know who you are and where you're at so they will do the same.
>
> > Suffice it to say, I highly recommend purchasing the book, or looking
for it
> > at your local library.
> >
> > My children are respondig to the tougher consequences for getting out of
> > line by surprising me with more responsable, capable, and self-motivated
> > behavior. For instance, they now remember to put their tooth brushes
away
> > and wipe up any spilled toothpaste after brushing, and they dont fuss
about
> > having to brush after breakfast, they can clean up their toys with less
and
> > less direction from me... Before I used to stand over their shoulders
> > instructing them on each move.
> >
> > Hope that helps a little,
> > Joshua
> >
>
> it's great that your kids are having a positive response to your new
> approach. i think i'll have to read the book because it sounds too
> authoritarian for my taste but it would be unfair for me to assume that.
i'm
> curious if your kids are displaying obedience or free will? and if this
new
> approach will be of value to them when they become adults? this is all
very
> new for me because all i have to fall back o is what not to do.
>
> -susan
> austin,tx
>
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
>
>

Joshua Heath

Susan...   Wow, you are very effective at communicating your ideas!  I agree with your points about emphasizing the posative attributes and behaviours rather than focusing on the negative...And I completely agree that in most instances rewards and punishments are not effective, and that it is VERY easy to abuse parental authority by being unclear, unfair, or angry.  
But I think it is equally easy to deny your parental authority and inadvertantly burden your children with too much power.  I view it as another one of those issues where niether extreme (authoritarian/ over controlling or permissive) is truely balanced...  I am not suggesting you are overly permissive either... I am just bringing up the point that as an authority figure, you must enforce boundaries somehow...
For me, providing a "time out" for crossing a clear boundary, is more along the lines of temporarily restricting freedom's than "punishment"... but it certainly is a consequence of crossing the boundary....
Also, I now believe it is important for children to "surrender" to their (hopefully loving and caring) parental authority. This is a little difficult for me to articulate... but I really think there are situations where the most couragous and loving thing to be done as a parent is to stand up to my child lovingly but firmly and without protecting him.  I could go on.... :-) 
(I tend to get a little wordy when I am whestling with something difficult for me to articulate)
 
I will look for both of these books at the library,
have a good day,
Joshua