Have A Nice Day!

Angie,

Very well said.

It is true, when we say "kids will make their own choices and they might not agree with yours" it sounds like we are being permissive.

But thats not it. We aren't permissive (and neither are you Angie). We are INVOLVED from beginning to end, but we are also realists. That is FAR from being permissive.

We talk about everything. We know where our kids stand. We *know* where they *might* venture away from what we would recommend. We talk about *everything* because no subject is off limits.

We involve ourselves in their lives enough to try to influence them *before* they make mistakes that could hurt them or others.

But, if they *do* make a mistake, we don't leave them high and dry either. We are *there*, to help them through it, including helping them face the consequences. They are not alone in picking up the pieces.

I can't emphasize enough how much I have learned from my own kids. All kids, but especially teens, desperately need to have an adult in their corner, not to dismiss the mistakes they've made, but to be there to help them face the mistakes they've made without judgement or anger.

If the parents aren't there, it will be someone else. And that someone might *not* care about your kids at all.

Kristen


----- Original Message -----
From: Angie
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2003 11:26 AM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Am I just being naïve?


>>: Am I just being naïve? My daughter is
only 2 and it will be many more years before my husband and I
have to face dating and boyfriends. I know that many of you on
this list have older kids so I wanted to ask you all. Do "they"
(meaning teenagers) just go ahead and do what "they" want
regardless of what "you" (as parents) think?

I'd like to respond to this, though I rarely post. When I was very
young, say between 7 and 12 yo, I used to say with all honesty that
my Mom was my best friend. I felt immense love towards her. I told
her everything. She was a very permissive parent, meaning I
basically felt like I could do what I wanted, except for things like
staying up late (school the next day) and the like. For a 10 yo
girl, though, I had it pretty good. In Jr. High, I began taking
advantage of my mothers permissiveness, going places without her
knowledge, sneaking
cigarettes, tasting little sips of my best friends Dad'd brandy. I
was a good girl who was experimenting. Once my mom found cigarettes
in my purse. I lied and told them they were not mine. She seemed to
believe me, and I didn't get in trouble, or even really talked to.
From there, I figured that she trusted me so much that I really COULD
get away with anything, and that is where it began, by the time I was
13, I was no longer a virgin, had shoplifted, started sneaking out of
the house at night, been very drunk many
times, and began smoking pot. I was hanging out with total losers,
while still managing to get mostly A's on my report card and
remaining first chair clarinet in Symphonic band. When my mother did
find out about things that I had done, she'd cry with me, tell me how
worried she was, and that she loved me. She made no real moves to
HELP me get away from the negativity that I was breeeding. She didn't
know how she could. My peers had won over the respect that i had for
my mom by the time I was 13. My High school years were even
worse...My mom did the best she could. She was working 2 jobs for
most of my life to keep the bills paid, trying her best to keep 2
kids happy. I am the one who betrayed that trust. My "friends" had
such a pull over me that I could not be stopped. If only I could have
taken a step back and seen those peers for who they really
were...kids just as troubled and lost as i was, with NO guidance or
motivation to succeed. A lot of those kids ended up in jail or
prison, some became
junkies, some just got pregnant early and had abortions. Some died. A
few made it out OK. I was one of the few.

I guess that is one of the reasons why I unschool. I want to be
THERE
for my daughter (11), not just tell her that I'll be there when she
needs me. She needs my physical presence in her life daily, not just
for a couple of hours at night. My relationship with my DD is even
better than my early relationship with my Mom. I, too, am a
very permissive parent. The difference it that I KNOW my daughters
beliefs on cigarettes, sex, drugs, stuck up people, risky behavior.
I know them because we talk about them,alot, not just try to sweep
them
under the rug. When my mom found out that I was having sex at 13 (
after all, she did trust that my boyfriend and I were just in my room
behind closed doors TALKING) she rushed me to the gyno and put me on
the pill. We had never before talked about the dangers or risks
associated with sex. She trusted me without having a basis for doing
so. She automatically assumed that I would not
do anything to hurt myself or others. Unfortunately the 'friends'
that I chose and the temptations surrounding those friendships were
way too alluring. And the whole time, I just knew I could get away
with it. I don't want my dd to think that she can 'get away with
anything'. I want her to make responsible choices. She will not be
able to make those responsible choices if left completely to her own
devices, however. There has to be a good solid foundation from which
she can grow. That is why I unschool, and I just hope it works. It
scares me to think that my dd could end up making the same mistakes
as I did. My dd, however, has a much healthier self-esteem than I
did at her age. She has a strong sense of who she is and where she
wants her life to take her. she is a very different young person
than I was. That being said, I am making a concerted effort, every
day, to keep the lines of communication OPEN. I will never just
ASSUME that she knows what my feelings are, or that I know what hers
are. We talk about everything. And we do it often. She is not
afraid to ask questions about 'sensitive' subjects, and I give her
honest answers, not scare tactics or denial, not threats. Also, I
know who her friends are. To me this is KEY. My mother never had a
clue as to who the kids were that I was hanging out with. BTW, my mom
and I now have a very open relationship. She knows all about my past
and my poor choices. We have cried together several times as
I 'confessed' the things that I had done in my youth. We understand
each other, and she is, to this day, one of my best friends. I'm
just glad that I am still here to be able to say that.




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Have A Nice Day!

Pam,

We are working towards this, but how? I know it is a vauge question
but I am having trouble wording it. How do you handle it when they
do something *wrong*, both if you find out and if they tell you
themselves? How do you create that trust to *insure* they do come to
you? Right now, my ds, 4, is pretty open but I want to maintain that
as he gets older (right now it is that mommy I love you stage and
mommy is all good stage<g>)<<<<<


I'm not Pam, but I have run into both of these scenarios.

When I've found out, I have waited for the right moment to bring it up and ask about it. When they've told me, its usually becasue I ask about it too.

I think the fact that I asked about it made them realize that I was not "out of touch". Nowadays, they just share things with me.

How to handle it? Don't flip out and don't lecture (at least not right away LOL). I let them talk, just like you would if it were your best friend doing something you didn't agree with.

THEN I tell them how I feel about it and give them real reasons why my advice is in their best interests. And sometimes they will say "ok mom, I don't want to hear anymore", and I stop.

When my oldest started smoking we talked about it a lot. I asked him if he would quit. He said he would. I asked if he was just telling me what I wanted to hear....he said "probably". so right there, we were honest with each other in a calm discussion where nobody was fooling themselves or each other.

As the conversation continued over the past few months, we've talked about smoking as a health concern, bad example, etc etc. And our discussions have included drugs and alcohol.

We've finally settled on knowing when you're hooked and how to avoid it if you *are* going to smoke. And although I know he still smokes, he actually keeps track of how many he's had in what time period in an effort to not get hooked while he experiments with it. (Whether or not this will actually work remains to be seen, but at least that is his intention).

He also has made the conscious and responsible choice not to smoke in front of his younger sisters. Since I don't agree with his smoking, he doesn't smoke in front of me, but he doesn't keep it a secret. And I don't buy him cigarettes because I would prefer that he quit. We each know where we stand.

Just a few days ago, my son and his friends asked me "are you prepared for the future?" and I looked at them. And they whipped out packaged condoms and yelled "we are!!". My first response?

"Well, you do realize that they only work if you wear them, right? LOL". They all laughed. But then we got to talking about whether condoms can have holes in them and that led to a conversation about VD and pregnancy and AIDS and Hepatitis.

But the reason they talked to me about it was because my first response did not pass judgement on them for having a condom in their pockets...but addressed the very real idea that they were contemplating sex, even at 13.

Kristen



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Mary

From: "Olga" <britcontoo@...>

<<It reminded me of how "sexual" people make
things.>>


One thing I have noticed that a lot of parents and just not thinking family
members do is talk about boy and girl friends. From a very young age,
whenever a child even mentions a friend of the opposite sex, someone will
comment if that is "your girl/boy friend" in a tone that is just not
appropriate for a child of 10 let alone 5. It's a boy or a girl and they are
a friend, I wonder why people need to make it grown up. I am very careful
with that around my kids and every now and then they will pick it up from
the park and I will reiterate that it's just a friend who happens to be a
boy or girl. No big deal. So far, my kids seem very general with that.

Mary B

Mary

From: "Olga" <britcontoo@...>

<<We are working towards this, but how? I know it is a vauge question
but I am having trouble wording it. How do you handle it when they
do something *wrong*, both if you find out and if they tell you
themselves? How do you create that trust to *insure* they do come to
you? Right now, my ds, 4, is pretty open but I want to maintain that
mommy is all good stage<g>)>>


Well generally speaking, you talk to them about whatever it was that
happened. That means you also need to know when the child wants to talk and
when he's listening. If you see that glaze over look, it's not working. You
don't lecture and bore them to tears. You offer other solutions for the
problem at hand and also ask for ideas from them as to what could have been
said or done different. You don't punish and lose it and get angry and yell
or shame them. Those are sure ways to not have your child come to you in the
future. You understand that mistakes are made and that mistakes are things
even the most well intentioned people have happen to them too. It helps so
much to understand they are children and not wanting to be evil or hurt us
or act up just because. And I could also point out that even if a parent has
handled mistakes in a way that wasn't the best, it's not too late to change
so that your child will trust you. My oldest is the reason I can say that.
I've made more mistakes with her than I would like to admit to. She comes
and goes as she pleases and always tells me where she is, who she's with,
what they did and bad judgements she's made. I know her friends and the
people she just hangs out with. I know where they live and how old they are
and where they go to school or work. I know if they have divorced parents or
whatever. It's not because I always ask, sometimes I do but it's all just in
conversation. It's info she gives me just because we talk a lot, trust each
other and love each other. She shares her life with me in pretty much every
way. Not because she has to but because she wants to.

Mary B

Olga

Mary,

I totally agree. One of my gf's dd is so *relationship savvy* for a
lack of a better word. She is going to be five in August and she and
some other girls have boyfriends in preschool. We went to the beach
last week and I was showering Keiran, I took off his clothes right
there and washed off the sand. Her dd says, "everyone is going to
see him naked!". LOL..he doesn't care and I don't care. At some
point he had asked her for a kiss in his innocent way (we always give
kisses and hugs to our cousins and at home). To him it is a show of
caring and friendship and she says "yuck". I felt bad for the poor
guy, he had no idea why not? He has no clue about any of the
girlfriend/boyfriend stuff because we have never made that an issue
either.


Olga :)

--- In [email protected], "Mary" <mummy124@b...>
wrote:
> From: "Olga" <britcontoo@a...>
>
> <<It reminded me of how "sexual" people make
> things.>>
>
>
> One thing I have noticed that a lot of parents and just not
thinking family
> members do is talk about boy and girl friends. From a very young
age,
> whenever a child even mentions a friend of the opposite sex,
someone will
> comment if that is "your girl/boy friend" in a tone that is just not
> appropriate for a child of 10 let alone 5. It's a boy or a girl and
they are
> a friend, I wonder why people need to make it grown up. I am very
careful
> with that around my kids and every now and then they will pick it
up from
> the park and I will reiterate that it's just a friend who happens
to be a
> boy or girl. No big deal. So far, my kids seem very general with
that.
>
> Mary B

Have A Nice Day!

And I could also point out that even if a parent has
handled mistakes in a way that wasn't the best, it's not too late to change
so that your child will trust you.<<<<



I can attest to this too. I did not always parent this way. In fact, its pretty recent (in the past 2 years) that we've "evolved".

I went from being authoritarian with lots of "rules" to always worrying and lecturing, to "setting up consequences" etc etc. I even read "To Train Up a Child" (ugh) and did the "rod" thing for a *very* brief period. Thank G-d I saw the light on that one.

The one single most significant change that made things so much better was changing what we thought about the nature of children.

I am *SO* glad we started looking at and treating our kids differently. I don't know where we'd be if we hadn't (well, yes I do and I know it wouldn't be pretty).

Kristen






----- Original Message -----
From: Mary
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2003 4:57 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Am I just being naïve?


From: "Olga" <britcontoo@...>

<<We are working towards this, but how? I know it is a vauge question
but I am having trouble wording it. How do you handle it when they
do something *wrong*, both if you find out and if they tell you
themselves? How do you create that trust to *insure* they do come to
you? Right now, my ds, 4, is pretty open but I want to maintain that
mommy is all good stage<g>)>>


Well generally speaking, you talk to them about whatever it was that
happened. That means you also need to know when the child wants to talk and
when he's listening. If you see that glaze over look, it's not working. You
don't lecture and bore them to tears. You offer other solutions for the
problem at hand and also ask for ideas from them as to what could have been
said or done different. You don't punish and lose it and get angry and yell
or shame them. Those are sure ways to not have your child come to you in the
future. You understand that mistakes are made and that mistakes are things
even the most well intentioned people have happen to them too. It helps so
much to understand they are children and not wanting to be evil or hurt us
or act up just because. And I could also point out that even if a parent has
handled mistakes in a way that wasn't the best, it's not too late to change
so that your child will trust you. My oldest is the reason I can say that.
I've made more mistakes with her than I would like to admit to. She comes
and goes as she pleases and always tells me where she is, who she's with,
what they did and bad judgements she's made. I know her friends and the
people she just hangs out with. I know where they live and how old they are
and where they go to school or work. I know if they have divorced parents or
whatever. It's not because I always ask, sometimes I do but it's all just in
conversation. It's info she gives me just because we talk a lot, trust each
other and love each other. She shares her life with me in pretty much every
way. Not because she has to but because she wants to.

Mary B




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Mary

From: <genant2@...>

<<They didn't spill their juice on purpose. They come to me and say "Mom I
spilled my juice on the rug." I say "OK do you need help cleaning it up?"
Then they either say no and go get a towel or they say yes and we clean it
up
together. There is no punishment. I don't scream at them for spilling the
juice.>>


And aside from our children crying, isn't this one of the first things that
really test our patience and the way we parent? Spilling stuff?? And is it
really that big of a deal? I can't think of any time that it is. So you
spend some time cleaning it up, we've all spilled stuff. I can't imagine
getting all bent out of shape over something like that. And if our children
see us so upset over something that was a genuine accident, what they must
think we'll do if they really make a mistake?





<<I also try to help whenever asked. Even if I think they can do it
themselves. If my oldest asks me to make him a peanut butter sandwich,
unless there is some reason that I can't, I will say yes.>>


And again, not really a big deal and it makes them so happy. I still do
things like that for Tara. Sometimes without her asking I'll just go and
finish food she started cooking and bring it to her. She is just so happy to
have me do it. And like this morning, she stayed home from school and came
out all sleepy and kissing me and said "Mommy" in a voice that I know she's
going to ask for something. I always tease when she uses that tone and just
say no and she laughs. She was hungry for pancakes. Now she's quite capable
of making them herself and I was doing about 5 other things but so what? I
made pancakes and she was so very happy and so was Alyssa and Sierra as they
ended up eating again!!! It was a great way to start a great day!

Mary B

Olga

I remember getting yelled at for spilling things. I also remember
when me and my sis were growing up we could not laugh or talk at the
dinner table. Well, of course we would end up in the giggles
probably from stress<G> and then get yelled at, maybe spanked. It is
so ridiculous to me, all I want to do is hear my kids laugh. It is
always the right time for that! We are all pretty relaxed around
here. I think humor is the cornerstone for our marriage and how we
interact with the kids. We are always laughing at eachother,
probably too much..LOL! Don't trip in front of me, my maturity
reaches an all time low!! <BG>

Olga :)

--- In [email protected], "Mary" <mummy124@b...>
wrote:
> >
> <<They didn't spill their juice on purpose. They come to me and
say "Mom I
> spilled my juice on the rug." I say "OK do you need help cleaning
it up?"
> Then they either say no and go get a towel or they say yes and we
clean it
> up
> together. There is no punishment. I don't scream at them for
spilling the
> juice.>>
>
>
> And aside from our children crying, isn't this one of the first
things that
> really test our patience and the way we parent? Spilling stuff??
And is it
> really that big of a deal? I can't think of any time that it is. So
you
> spend some time cleaning it up, we've all spilled stuff. I can't
imagine
> getting all bent out of shape over something like that. And if our
children
> see us so upset over something that was a genuine accident, what
they must
> think we'll do if they really make a mistake?
>
>
>
>
>
> <<I also try to help whenever asked. Even if I think they can do it
> themselves. If my oldest asks me to make him a peanut butter
sandwich,
> unless there is some reason that I can't, I will say yes.>>
>
>
> And again, not really a big deal and it makes them so happy. I
still do
> things like that for Tara. Sometimes without her asking I'll just
go and
> finish food she started cooking and bring it to her. She is just so
happy to
> have me do it. And like this morning, she stayed home from school
and came
> out all sleepy and kissing me and said "Mommy" in a voice that I
know she's
> going to ask for something. I always tease when she uses that tone
and just
> say no and she laughs. She was hungry for pancakes. Now she's quite
capable
> of making them herself and I was doing about 5 other things but so
what? I
> made pancakes and she was so very happy and so was Alyssa and
Sierra as they
> ended up eating again!!! It was a great way to start a great day!
>
> Mary B

melissa4123

--- In [email protected], "Mary"
mummy124@b...> wrote:
From: <genant2@a...>

"They didn't spill their juice on purpose. They come to me and
say "Mom I spilled my juice on the rug." I say "OK do you need
help cleaning it up?" Then they either say no and go get a towel
or they say yes and we clean it up together. There is no
punishment. I don't scream at them for spilling the juice."

"And aside from our children crying, isn't this one of the first
things that really test our patience and the way we parent?
Spilling stuff?? And is it really that big of a deal? I can't think of
any time that it is. So you spend some time cleaning it up, we've
all spilled stuff. I can't imagine getting all bent out of shape over
something like that."

---These two posts reminded me of something that I read once
and thought to myself "that's how I'm going to respond to my
kids." I was reading a story and the grandma had just gotten
new carpet in her house (she had saved for a LONG time for
this). The grandma had her family over for a BBQ, with all the
grandkids. Her small granddaughter had some honey that she
was eating and ended up spilling it all over grandma's brand
new carpet. The granddaughter went running to her grandma,
told her what happened and then started to cry. Know what
grandma said? "That's ok sweetie, we can get you more honey!"
Things like that just don't matter in the grand scheme of things.

Just wanted to share,
Melissa

Cindy

Melissa, I loved the story of the Grandma and getting the little girl
more honey! That is how I long to be. How special is that?? I am
learning now that I need to pick and choose my battles but oh my how
calming would life be to truly not sweat the small things!

You have given me hope!!
Thanks!!
Cindy

--- In [email protected], "melissa4123"
<melissa4123@y...> wrote:
> --- In [email protected], "Mary"
> mummy124@b...> wrote:
> From: <genant2@a...>
>
> "They didn't spill their juice on purpose. They come to me and
> say "Mom I spilled my juice on the rug." I say "OK do you need
> help cleaning it up?" Then they either say no and go get a towel
> or they say yes and we clean it up together. There is no
> punishment. I don't scream at them for spilling the juice."
>
> "And aside from our children crying, isn't this one of the first
> things that really test our patience and the way we parent?
> Spilling stuff?? And is it really that big of a deal? I can't think
of
> any time that it is. So you spend some time cleaning it up, we've
> all spilled stuff. I can't imagine getting all bent out of shape
over
> something like that."
>
> ---These two posts reminded me of something that I read once
> and thought to myself "that's how I'm going to respond to my
> kids." I was reading a story and the grandma had just gotten
> new carpet in her house (she had saved for a LONG time for
> this). The grandma had her family over for a BBQ, with all the
> grandkids. Her small granddaughter had some honey that she
> was eating and ended up spilling it all over grandma's brand
> new carpet. The granddaughter went running to her grandma,
> told her what happened and then started to cry. Know what
> grandma said? "That's ok sweetie, we can get you more honey!"
> Things like that just don't matter in the grand scheme of things.
>
> Just wanted to share,
> Melissa

melissa4123

It gives me hope as well, Cindy. There are days when I really
can just let the small stuff go (those are the days when I'm so
much more relaxed and have a great time with my daughter)and
then others when I have to hold my breath and count to 10
SEVERAL times a day, just to remind myself that it really is "no
big deal." :) But, I am getting better with letting things go
so...there is hope.

Melissa

--- In [email protected], "Cindy"
<Cindy0766@a...> wrote:
> Melissa, I loved the story of the Grandma and getting the little
girl
> more honey! That is how I long to be. How special is that?? I
am
> learning now that I need to pick and choose my battles but oh
my how
> calming would life be to truly not sweat the small things!
>
> You have given me hope!!
> Thanks!!
> Cindy
>
> --- In [email protected], "melissa4123"
> <melissa4123@y...> wrote:
> > --- In [email protected], "Mary"
> > mummy124@b...> wrote:
> > From: <genant2@a...>
> >
> > "They didn't spill their juice on purpose. They come to me
and
> > say "Mom I spilled my juice on the rug." I say "OK do you
need
> > help cleaning it up?" Then they either say no and go get a
towel
> > or they say yes and we clean it up together. There is no
> > punishment. I don't scream at them for spilling the juice."
> >
> > "And aside from our children crying, isn't this one of the first
> > things that really test our patience and the way we parent?
> > Spilling stuff?? And is it really that big of a deal? I can't think
> of
> > any time that it is. So you spend some time cleaning it up,
we've
> > all spilled stuff. I can't imagine getting all bent out of shape
> over
> > something like that."
> >
> > ---These two posts reminded me of something that I read
once
> > and thought to myself "that's how I'm going to respond to my
> > kids." I was reading a story and the grandma had just gotten
> > new carpet in her house (she had saved for a LONG time for
> > this). The grandma had her family over for a BBQ, with all the
> > grandkids. Her small granddaughter had some honey that
she
> > was eating and ended up spilling it all over grandma's brand
> > new carpet. The granddaughter went running to her
grandma,
> > told her what happened and then started to cry. Know what
> > grandma said? "That's ok sweetie, we can get you more
honey!"
> > Things like that just don't matter in the grand scheme of
things.
> >
> > Just wanted to share,
> > Melissa