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In a message dated 5/20/2003 10:17:22 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
melissa4123@... writes:
> Do "they"
> (meaning teenagers) just go ahead and do what "they" want
> regardless of what "you" (as parents) think?

Do you?

I mean, do you go ahead and do what you want regardless of what others think?

My children (15 & 7) seem to truly *care* what I think. Because I trust them.
Because they trust me. Their friends aren't so lucky. Their schoofled and
schooledat-home friends are always getting into trouble. I think that the
bonds we create while they're very young can be "lifelines" when they're
older.

Too many parents seem to want to push their babies into growing up. Then when
they're teens, they want to "baby" them. It just can't work that way. Parents
*must* realize that teens are quickly adults. If they've adjusted
appropriately to the child's changes, it should go smoothly.

School stops a lot of that "natural progression"---and so do some
parents---but I think school plays a huge roll. School says, "Send your
babies to us; don't worry that they cry!". Then when they're teens, school
says, "Lock 'em up! Make them DO! Keep them in line! No matter what the
cost!". They can't have it both ways!

Unschooling allows you to "go with the flow". Especially as preteens, the
children are independent one minute and needy, the next. They aren't allowed
that freedom in school. So as unschoolers, what you get are kids that "know"
what they "are". Schooled kids are so mixed up. Unschoolers can be who they
are; schooled kids often rely on others' opinions---and NOT those of their
parents, who seem totally out of the loop.

Cameron (15) is VERY open with me about what's hapening to him and to his
friends. Most of his friends can't talk to their parents. They'll talk to me.


I *do* want my boys to go ahead and do what they want. But I can trust that
they are doing things because *they* want to --and that they won't lie to me
about things or try to keep things from me. The peer pressure is there, but
the hold it has over them is not nearly as strong as that of their friends.
It's obvious. And they'll talk with me---about anything. Cameron seems to
*want* my opinion.

It could be that he's just "that kind of kid". That's possible. He's always
been an easy child. But I think that a lot of it has to do with the respect
and trust we show him ---that his friends don't get in school or from their
schooled parents.

~Kelly, long-winded and maybe not clear enough


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/20/03 10:17:11 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
melissa4123@... writes:

> If you raise your kids with moral values and
> sense of what's right and wrong then, they will make the right
> decisions about these things.

I probably am not the best one to comment on this as my boys are only 8 and 6
but, I think you should remember that they will make the right decision for
them. It might not be the decision you would make. I think our children
respect us and we respect them. I think our boys have a respect for our
opinions. That doesn't mean that they think we are always right. They are
the first ones to question what we, as parents, say.

>>Her comment was
something along the lines of "Well you can't stop them from
doing what they really want to do anyway."  My response was "Of
course you can!" <<

You might be able to keep your children from doing things in front of you but
you cannot keep them from doing things behind your back. Unless you are with
them 24-7.

But in our house that is not the goal. I want my boys to be open and honest
with us. I don't want them to have a reason to hide something they are
doing. I trust them to make the decisions for themselves. Not that they
will never make a bad decision. But they can come to us, as parents, and we
can talk about possibilities and different options and we can offer
suggestions.

Anyway I am rambling yet again with no clear point in mind.
Just my thought.
Pam G.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

zenmomma2kids

>> ~Kelly, long-winded and maybe not clear enough>>

Not long winded at all Kelly! I think you explained the dynamics of a
healthy teen/parent relationship perfectly. Thanks!

Life is good.
~Mary

[email protected]

In a message dated 5-20-2003 8:16:58 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
melissa4123@... writes:

> If you raise your kids with moral values and
> sense of what's right and wrong then, they will make the right
> decisions about these things.

The issue here is the *right* decision is the decision that is right for YOUR
CHILD. Honestly, they may not make the decision that YOU think is right for
them. For us, that is another reason to homeschool, so my children have a
firm grasp of who they *are* and what works for *them* as separate and
complete human beings. I know my children won't make *my* decisions, nor
will they avoid *my* decisions ~ the whole point is in them being free to
make *their very own* decisions...
diana,
The wackiest widow westriver...
“I'm just a human being trying to make it in a world that is very rapidly
losing it's understanding of being human" John Trudell


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/20/03 8:17:25 AM, melissa4123@... writes:

<< Am I just being naïve? My daughter is

only 2 and it will be many more years before my husband and I

have to face dating and boyfriends. I know that many of you on

this list have older kids so I wanted to ask you all. Do "they"

(meaning teenagers) just go ahead and do what "they" want

regardless of what "you" (as parents) think? >>

They became teenagers gradually, and right where we were, so they do what
they do based on years of discussion and analysis.

It helps here that our kids are all verbal and interested in interpersonal
relationships. We talk about why other couples do what they do, why someone
got divorced, whether someone seems to be being a good boyfriend or not (of
the adults around them, or older teens). They talk to us about things
they've seen and heard when they were at other people's houses. We discuss
pregnancies and miscarriages with them. There just are not topics that we
keep our kids away from our out of.

The same way they've come to know that they didn't HAVE to play with anyone
they thought was being mean to them, they know they don't HAVE to go out with
anyone, or become romantical with anyone, they can always say no, or they can
offer input into ANY situation to change it, and if the other person doesn't
want their input, bye-bye!

Holly is eleven. We had a male friend of hers who is somewhere in the nine
to eleven year range, I'm not sure here overnight, because his mom wasn't
feeling well. Holly said "I'll sleep with him in the library," and I said
okay. I also suggested they could put a futon on the floor in her room if
they wanted to, becuase it was a very windy night, and that library has a
whistly window and a sometimes-rattly (sometimes blows right open) door on
the deck. It's up high. But they decided to sleep on futons in there, so I
helped them set it up and I locked the door with a deadbolt so it wouldn't
blow open.

The preparations had all to do with comfort and a peaceful night, not about
keeping a girl away from a boy.

When we kept a family of kids, a girl and her two brothers, all four made
beds up there, and I didn't worry a bit.

It often happened with the boys (still does) that they have mixed groups of
kids from out of town come for a concert or whatever and stay over. They
sleep just wherever, however. So our kids do NOT have the expectation that
if there are mixed groups that there will or should be even KISSING, let
alone sex. There is no long-awaited charge for them. Sleeping is sleeping.
Kirby has a queen-sized bed and a futon on the floor in his room. We have a
neighbor, Joey, who pretty much lives in Kirby's room. Last time Sadie was
over (18, Amazon-queen type, unschooled, in college) she just slept on
Kirby's bed with him. Separate covers, but not because anybody said so. She
just fell asleep where she was, and it was no big deal.

At our house, because we have NEVER made a big deal about anyone being a girl
or a boy, and have not acted nervous or said who couldn't sleep or be or sit
or ride where, the kids are calm and mature.

The only problem kid has been a schooled kid, only child, who had a crush on
a friend of my niece, and when the Espanola homeschooler crowd would come
over, he always had to come over too, and sit with the girls, and touch them
too much, and make too much sexual-tension commentary, and generally be an
irritating traditional schoolboy. I would just make loud general comments
like "If Eric's bothering you, just tell him to go sleep in the den," or "If
Eric's a problem, we can send him home." (He has a car and lives one mile
away.)

This came up once (on this list or somewhere else, the forum maybe) and
someone new to unschooling and homeschooling and new to kids being open and
honest got VERY shrill about it. Someone had asked about a mixed-gender
sleepover of eight or nine year olds, I think. Several of us said we saw no
problem, and this new mom kinda went OFF on us that if we thought that kids
had ever slept in the same room at our house and NOT had sex that we were
fooling ourselves.

It was fascinating to see how strongly SHE obviously thought it was
inevitable, or required, that if you can reach each other in the dark you're
going to screw like bunnies.

If you could all have seen the looks on my kids' faces when I read them her
post, you would all KNOW volumes.

Kirby seems probably to have "done it" (I didn't ask straight out but several
comments were made which indicated, and the behavior of the now-former
girlfriend seemed to confirm), but not at the house. At a campout in
Arizona. We had talked about birth control since he turned fourteen, and
everytime he leaves for a teen-filled place and I won't be there, I remind
him and remind him where his friends can get condoms if they need them, and
we've given them condoms too "in case their friends need them."

My kids don't much "date." They go to movies in groups, they do things at
people's houses in groups, they're not trolling for partners in any way.
Twice when Kirby had intended and planned to be alone with a girl, others
showed up and went with them. That's been an interesting phenomenon.
Because the greater group of people they hang out with is used to "Sure, come
on with us," there was no tactful way for them to say "This time you're NOT
welcome." In both cases, though, he only expressed mild disappointment or
surprise, not any anger.

Sandra

Olga

> But in our house that is not the goal. I want my boys to be open
and honest
> with us. I don't want them to have a reason to hide something they
are
> doing. I trust them to make the decisions for themselves. Not
that they
> will never make a bad decision. But they can come to us, as
parents, and we
> can talk about possibilities and different options and we can offer
> suggestions.
>
> Anyway I am rambling yet again with no clear point in mind.
> Just my thought.
> Pam G.
>

Pam,

We are working towards this, but how? I know it is a vauge question
but I am having trouble wording it. How do you handle it when they
do something *wrong*, both if you find out and if they tell you
themselves? How do you create that trust to *insure* they do come to
you? Right now, my ds, 4, is pretty open but I want to maintain that
as he gets older (right now it is that mommy I love you stage and
mommy is all good stage<g>)

Olga :)

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/20/03 10:49:34 AM, litlrooh@... writes:

<< I have to agree with this. I think most parents do try to teach their
kids morals. >>

We've tried to teach them how to think through things, by modelling, and by
helping them consider more factors than they had thought up on their own.

The discussions of why other people do things really help.

I think watching so many movies together helps, because different people see
and understand the same situation from different levels of awareness and
maturity. The Princess Bride is being watched here lately. It's fantasy,
but people's motives are fascinating in that story, and it just adds to the
huge store of considerations my kids have.

And as has been said before about unschoolers and the real world, my kids
aren't preparing to live in the real world, they DO live in the real world.
They're not practicing for the time when they will make their own decisions,
they are making real decisions now, and have been since they were little.

What to eat and when to sleep are real.
That extends to other decisionmaking smoothly and easily.

The same way learning to read makes them confident about learning other
things, coming to REALLY know what it feels like to eat when you're actually
hungry, and to go to sleep when you're tired instead of by the clock is great
preparation for deciding when to kiss someone. Not by the clock or the
calendar, not because it's expected on a date the same way dessert comes
after cleaning your plate, but do you WANT to kiss this person? Will the
result be ideal? Can't you just kiss them later, when both seem clearly to
want to?

Forcing a child to eat at 6:00, clean the plate, have desert, wash the
dishes, brush teeth, WEAR PAJAMAS, get in bed at 9:30, be asleep by 10:00...
that seems to me to be a drill for... turn 16, go on a date, pick her up at
7:30, go to the movie at 8:00, hold her hand by 8:30, kiss her by 9:00, leave
the movie quickly without looking at posters or talking to people you konw so
you find a place to park and make out so you can be home by 11:00, you only
have a few minutes so MOVE FAST...

A different kind of life leads to a different kind of thinking.

Sandra

Olga

Sandra,

What an excellent post. It reminded me of how "sexual" people make
things. My now 4 yo has always run around in a diaper and then
underwear. Up until he turned 4 he would pretty much take of his
clothes and run around comfortably in his underwear. My dh's family
and especially the kids ranging from younger than him to grown up
always had to comment. They kept trying to kncikname him something
to do with being *naked*. The kid wasn't *naked* and we never
thought twice about it. Also, this was always at a relatives house
not in the middle of the park <g>. It never made sense to me, but
maybe that is where it all starts. Even at this young age someone
has taught them it is odd and they are different. He still spends
his day in underwear and of course now my 2yo completely not potty
trained one insists on wearing them too..LOL!

Olga :)

--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
>
> In a message dated 5/20/03 8:17:25 AM, melissa4123@y... writes:
>
> << Am I just being naïve? My daughter is
>
> only 2 and it will be many more years before my husband and I
>
> have to face dating and boyfriends. I know that many of you on
>
> this list have older kids so I wanted to ask you all. Do "they"
>
> (meaning teenagers) just go ahead and do what "they" want
>
> regardless of what "you" (as parents) think? >>
>
> They became teenagers gradually, and right where we were, so they
do what
> they do based on years of discussion and analysis.
>
> It helps here that our kids are all verbal and interested in
interpersonal
> relationships. We talk about why other couples do what they do,
why someone
> got divorced, whether someone seems to be being a good boyfriend or
not (of
> the adults around them, or older teens). They talk to us about
things
> they've seen and heard when they were at other people's houses.
We discuss
> pregnancies and miscarriages with them. There just are not topics
that we
> keep our kids away from our out of.
>
> The same way they've come to know that they didn't HAVE to play
with anyone
> they thought was being mean to them, they know they don't HAVE to
go out with
> anyone, or become romantical with anyone, they can always say no,
or they can
> offer input into ANY situation to change it, and if the other
person doesn't
> want their input, bye-bye!
>
> Holly is eleven. We had a male friend of hers who is somewhere in
the nine
> to eleven year range, I'm not sure here overnight, because his mom
wasn't
> feeling well. Holly said "I'll sleep with him in the library," and
I said
> okay. I also suggested they could put a futon on the floor in her
room if
> they wanted to, becuase it was a very windy night, and that library
has a
> whistly window and a sometimes-rattly (sometimes blows right open)
door on
> the deck. It's up high. But they decided to sleep on futons in
there, so I
> helped them set it up and I locked the door with a deadbolt so it
wouldn't
> blow open.
>
> The preparations had all to do with comfort and a peaceful night,
not about
> keeping a girl away from a boy.
>
> When we kept a family of kids, a girl and her two brothers, all
four made
> beds up there, and I didn't worry a bit.
>
> It often happened with the boys (still does) that they have mixed
groups of
> kids from out of town come for a concert or whatever and stay
over. They
> sleep just wherever, however. So our kids do NOT have the
expectation that
> if there are mixed groups that there will or should be even
KISSING, let
> alone sex. There is no long-awaited charge for them. Sleeping is
sleeping.
> Kirby has a queen-sized bed and a futon on the floor in his room.
We have a
> neighbor, Joey, who pretty much lives in Kirby's room. Last time
Sadie was
> over (18, Amazon-queen type, unschooled, in college) she just slept
on
> Kirby's bed with him. Separate covers, but not because anybody
said so. She
> just fell asleep where she was, and it was no big deal.
>
> At our house, because we have NEVER made a big deal about anyone
being a girl
> or a boy, and have not acted nervous or said who couldn't sleep or
be or sit
> or ride where, the kids are calm and mature.
>
> The only problem kid has been a schooled kid, only child, who had a
crush on
> a friend of my niece, and when the Espanola homeschooler crowd
would come
> over, he always had to come over too, and sit with the girls, and
touch them
> too much, and make too much sexual-tension commentary, and
generally be an
> irritating traditional schoolboy. I would just make loud general
comments
> like "If Eric's bothering you, just tell him to go sleep in the
den," or "If
> Eric's a problem, we can send him home." (He has a car and lives
one mile
> away.)
>
> This came up once (on this list or somewhere else, the forum maybe)
and
> someone new to unschooling and homeschooling and new to kids being
open and
> honest got VERY shrill about it. Someone had asked about a mixed-
gender
> sleepover of eight or nine year olds, I think. Several of us said
we saw no
> problem, and this new mom kinda went OFF on us that if we thought
that kids
> had ever slept in the same room at our house and NOT had sex that
we were
> fooling ourselves.
>
> It was fascinating to see how strongly SHE obviously thought it was
> inevitable, or required, that if you can reach each other in the
dark you're
> going to screw like bunnies.
>
> If you could all have seen the looks on my kids' faces when I read
them her
> post, you would all KNOW volumes.
>
> Kirby seems probably to have "done it" (I didn't ask straight out
but several
> comments were made which indicated, and the behavior of the now-
former
> girlfriend seemed to confirm), but not at the house. At a campout
in
> Arizona. We had talked about birth control since he turned
fourteen, and
> everytime he leaves for a teen-filled place and I won't be there, I
remind
> him and remind him where his friends can get condoms if they need
them, and
> we've given them condoms too "in case their friends need them."
>
> My kids don't much "date." They go to movies in groups, they do
things at
> people's houses in groups, they're not trolling for partners in any
way.
> Twice when Kirby had intended and planned to be alone with a girl,
others
> showed up and went with them. That's been an interesting
phenomenon.
> Because the greater group of people they hang out with is used
to "Sure, come
> on with us," there was no tactful way for them to say "This time
you're NOT
> welcome." In both cases, though, he only expressed mild
disappointment or
> surprise, not any anger.
>
> Sandra

[email protected]

melissa4123@... writes:

<< Her comment was
something along the lines of "Well you can't stop them from
doing what they really want to do anyway." My response was "Of
course you can!" If you raise your kids with moral values and
sense of what's right and wrong then, they will make the right
decisions about these things. >>


She seems to be of the opinion that if you "let" a teenager decide on their
own what to do with their time, that they're gonna choose sex, drugs and rock
and roll. But when you have frankly discussed STD's, addictions, and riots
at concerts, they have the info and perspective they need to make the right
decisions for themselves. I don't think that moral rights and wrongs are
really the issue, but maybe that's just my extremely libertarian values
speaking, lol.

~Aimee

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/20/2003 11:42:17 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
mjsolich@... writes:
> I love this! We've been committed to unschooling for several months now and
> already my thinking has changed radically. It's like I have been
> blindfolded
> most of my life and now that it's been removed I am truly seeing. I am so
> glad we are doing this now while the kids are young.

It's that paradigm shift. Amazing when it finally happens, huh?

Congratulations!

~Kelly


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]