Re: Perfectionism -- was Writing
zenmomma2kids
>> I've observed in his overall personality that he gets easilyfrustrated when something isn't going right for him. >>
I think that this is where perfectionism starts lots of times. It's
just an overall personality trait. We can certainly make it worse, or
try to ease it a little, but I think it's one of those things that is
just a part of who we are. Some of us get it way worse than others.
>>Now he's doing this sort of thing with writing. HE wants to learnto read and write and has been very persistent in asking me
to "teach" him. I'm struggling to find the words to reassure him
that -he'll learn- to read not by me "teaching" him but just because
he wants to learn and he'll pick it up.>>
Well you can teach him what he wants to learn without setting up a
full-time reading curriculum for him. He's asking to learn. Go for
it! Make it a game. Make labels for things for around the house and
see how many he can stick on the right object in 1 minute. Switch
them around and see how quickly he can get the labels back on the
right item. Play word concentration. Play with word families. Write
him simple little notes. Do as much as he wants and stop when he's
seems "full."
>>DS also *begs* for workbooks when we're at the bookstore and isvery interested in knowing what "grade level" they are. >>
Casey used to love workbooks. She still does them a bit now and then.
She loved knowing the grade levels too. We'd just make it a kind of
joke though. She plays games that range from ages 3 to adult. She
does workbooks and plays computer games that are all over the grade
levels. Just by experiencing how arbitrary those "standards" are, she
has seen for herself that they're meaningless in her world.
>>Is there any way to reassure him that just "doing your best" is allwe can do in life?>>
You can and should reassure him lots. There's no way to *make* him
believe it though. He needs more life experience. I believe we *get
it* by living it.
>> How can I be there for him and help him to work through hisfrustrations without imposing my own wishes or solutions on him?>>
You'll have to live it too. See what works. Judge for yourself when
you think he's looking for help and when he needs you to back off.
You'll find your rhythm.
>>I don't want them to live in someone else's "box" but to be able tofollow their own paths.>>
The grade level stuff is really not so all powerful when they're not
in school. They hear it and maybe compare to an extent, but it desn't
define them. They are already living outside the box and following
their own path.
Life is good.
~Mary
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/18/03 12:37:47 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
treegoddess@... writes:
can do to help.
Pam G.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
treegoddess@... writes:
> Now he's doing this sort of thing with writing. HE wants to learn toHave you asked him what specific questions he has. Or what it is that you
> read and write and has been very persistent in asking me to "teach" him.
> I'm struggling to find the words to reassure him that -he'll learn- to
> read not by me "teaching" him but just because he wants to learn and
> he'll pick it up. I can see that he is learning and have been pointing
> things out like "Hey, you read that! I didn't tell you what that said"
> and he gets very tickled and proud of himself. That approach seems to
> be working for us, but I'm open to more suggestions. :)
>
>
can do to help.
Pam G.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robin Clevenger
From: "treegoddess@..." <treegoddess@...>
showing balloon-footed stick people, because he didn't want to draw things
at age 3 that "didn't look real". My daughter, OTOH, creates with abandon.
One thing that really helped here is when I became more conscious about my
kids seeing *me* make mistakes. More specifically, once I started working on
my novel, my son asked to sit with me while I was reading it out loud and
editing it. He was amazed at *how many* "mistakes" I had made that I needed
to change. We had some long conversations about what it means to truly do
something and how even famous people like writers, painters, and scientists
rarely get something right the first time around. It takes repeated trials,
errors, and efforts. After that, something seemed to loosen inside him and
he became a prolific writer, even though his handwriting is all over the
place and his spelling is largely phonetic.
think to kids it must look as if adults can just do everything perfectly the
first time. Rarely do they get to see us struggle, make mistakes, get back
up and try again. By the time they're born, we can usually already do most
things that we need to, and we tend to stick inside our comfort zones. So
I'd say, take a risk and do something with him or near him that you've never
done before. Bake a souffle', write a haiku, take up an instrument you don't
know, rent some rollerblades or skis and let him see you fall on your butt
(literally or figuratively)!
I remember the day my kids watched me do a triathlon for the first time (the
first time they watched, not the first one I did). They saw a volunteer hang
a "finisher's medal" around my neck (which all races seem to give out now,
harrumph, but that's another rant about why adults can't just do something
for the sake of doing it and not a prize). Anyways, they started screaming
"You won mom! You won!" and I had to explain to them that I didn't actually
win. That led to a rather lengthy discussion about why I would do the race
if I wasn't going to win, what winning really meant, how I defined success,
etc.
Another example: one thing I like about the Suzuki method of violin, which
the kids are taking right now, is that they encourage parents to learn
alongside their kids. Wow, talk about getting perspective on just how hard
it is. When you're screeching and scratching your way through Twinkle,
Twinkle Little Star, you get a lot of insight into how hard *everything* is
for kids. We adults should do more of that kind of thing--put ourselves in
the position to learn something totally new and remember just how danged
hard it is! I have done a fair bit of teaching of various things to
adults--computers, skydiving, swimming to adult non-swimmers, and the single
greatest thing to get past for all of them is the fear of making mistakes.
As adults, it has had years to be ingrained deeply. The further we can go
now toward making sure our kids know that making mistakes *is how we learn
anything*, the better off they'll be.
him where the context is coming from. Or if you provided that context in the
first place, examine why/how you did that. Most 4 year olds wouldn't know
about age or grade levels unless someone told them. When my son has asked
"Why does this Lego box say "8 and up", I just tell him the truth: for some
crazy reason, our society requires them to do that, but it's totally
meaningless. If you can, maybe just offer to make him some workbooks at
home. Avoid going down the aisle in the store that has the workbooks unless
he asks to. My son used to love it when I made up worksheets for him. I'd
draw silly pictures and it would become an interactive activity. Disclaimer:
He totally asked for this, after seeing workbooks in a store. I have *never*
required him to do workbooks on any subject. He does like them though.
Well, that's a few things that have really helped around here. I've seen my
son's perfectionism really back off in the last couple of years, and I think
it was a combination of things that did it (including just getting older, of
course). Your child is four, right? Four is probably a hard age for kids.
They're old enough to know the vast scope of things they might be able to
do, but young enough so that it might seem to them that they haven't
mastered very many, and all of them are still very difficult. They don't
realize that in just mastering walking and talking, they've done some of the
hardest things that humans every have to learn!
Blue Skies!
-Robin-
>Now he's doing this sort of thing with writing. HE wants to learn toMy son has always been quite a perfectionist. I have no drawings of his
>read and write and has been very persistent in asking me to "teach" him.
> I'm struggling to find the words to reassure him that -he'll learn- to
>read not by me "teaching" him but just because he wants to learn and
>he'll pick it up. I can see that he is learning and have been pointing
>things out like "Hey, you read that! I didn't tell you what that said"
>and he gets very tickled and proud of himself. That approach seems to
>be working for us, but I'm open to more suggestions. :)
showing balloon-footed stick people, because he didn't want to draw things
at age 3 that "didn't look real". My daughter, OTOH, creates with abandon.
One thing that really helped here is when I became more conscious about my
kids seeing *me* make mistakes. More specifically, once I started working on
my novel, my son asked to sit with me while I was reading it out loud and
editing it. He was amazed at *how many* "mistakes" I had made that I needed
to change. We had some long conversations about what it means to truly do
something and how even famous people like writers, painters, and scientists
rarely get something right the first time around. It takes repeated trials,
errors, and efforts. After that, something seemed to loosen inside him and
he became a prolific writer, even though his handwriting is all over the
place and his spelling is largely phonetic.
> However, I'mMaybe look for less ways to tell him that, and more ways to show him. I
>having a hard time seeing this in my child because (in retrospect) I've
>learned that "perfect" is not really (IMO) attainable or desirable. Is
>there any way to reassure him that just "doing your best" is all we can
>do in life?
think to kids it must look as if adults can just do everything perfectly the
first time. Rarely do they get to see us struggle, make mistakes, get back
up and try again. By the time they're born, we can usually already do most
things that we need to, and we tend to stick inside our comfort zones. So
I'd say, take a risk and do something with him or near him that you've never
done before. Bake a souffle', write a haiku, take up an instrument you don't
know, rent some rollerblades or skis and let him see you fall on your butt
(literally or figuratively)!
I remember the day my kids watched me do a triathlon for the first time (the
first time they watched, not the first one I did). They saw a volunteer hang
a "finisher's medal" around my neck (which all races seem to give out now,
harrumph, but that's another rant about why adults can't just do something
for the sake of doing it and not a prize). Anyways, they started screaming
"You won mom! You won!" and I had to explain to them that I didn't actually
win. That led to a rather lengthy discussion about why I would do the race
if I wasn't going to win, what winning really meant, how I defined success,
etc.
Another example: one thing I like about the Suzuki method of violin, which
the kids are taking right now, is that they encourage parents to learn
alongside their kids. Wow, talk about getting perspective on just how hard
it is. When you're screeching and scratching your way through Twinkle,
Twinkle Little Star, you get a lot of insight into how hard *everything* is
for kids. We adults should do more of that kind of thing--put ourselves in
the position to learn something totally new and remember just how danged
hard it is! I have done a fair bit of teaching of various things to
adults--computers, skydiving, swimming to adult non-swimmers, and the single
greatest thing to get past for all of them is the fear of making mistakes.
As adults, it has had years to be ingrained deeply. The further we can go
now toward making sure our kids know that making mistakes *is how we learn
anything*, the better off they'll be.
>Also, how do you all handle "schoolish" lingo with the littler ones?Well, first off I'd examine how he heard about it in the first place. Ask
> What I mean is the "age/grade level" that workbooks, games and
>activities put on their products and things like that. I'm having
>difficulty explaining that it's all arbitrary, but DS is taking it
>literally and seems to be really focusing on these labels.
him where the context is coming from. Or if you provided that context in the
first place, examine why/how you did that. Most 4 year olds wouldn't know
about age or grade levels unless someone told them. When my son has asked
"Why does this Lego box say "8 and up", I just tell him the truth: for some
crazy reason, our society requires them to do that, but it's totally
meaningless. If you can, maybe just offer to make him some workbooks at
home. Avoid going down the aisle in the store that has the workbooks unless
he asks to. My son used to love it when I made up worksheets for him. I'd
draw silly pictures and it would become an interactive activity. Disclaimer:
He totally asked for this, after seeing workbooks in a store. I have *never*
required him to do workbooks on any subject. He does like them though.
Well, that's a few things that have really helped around here. I've seen my
son's perfectionism really back off in the last couple of years, and I think
it was a combination of things that did it (including just getting older, of
course). Your child is four, right? Four is probably a hard age for kids.
They're old enough to know the vast scope of things they might be able to
do, but young enough so that it might seem to them that they haven't
mastered very many, and all of them are still very difficult. They don't
realize that in just mastering walking and talking, they've done some of the
hardest things that humans every have to learn!
Blue Skies!
-Robin-
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/19/2003 11:07:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
diamondair@... writes:
I think, too, that truly succeeding in *something* helps too. Cameron's a
perfectionist. He is easily frustrated by things and used to give up quickly.
At 12, he became one the best magicians anywhere. Truly incredible. Some of
the BIG names in magic were in awe of this *little* boy with *little* hands
doing these amazing things (mostly manipulations). It took A LOT of doing
magic to get that good---and a lot of tears and frustration. But he saw what
he could accomplish.
Now, when he's frustrated at drawing or drumming or guitar or
filming/editting or writing or...whatever, I can point out how hard magic
was. And that he CAN do whatever he wants to do. He realizes now how hard
some things can be, but that if he just keeps working at it....
Anyway, the perfectionism isn't *gone*, but he's not as critical of himself
as he used to be. It's age, I'm sure. But it's also the knowledge that he's
done something even tougher before. And the more you do it, the better you
get.
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
diamondair@... writes:
> Well, that's a few things that have really helped around here. I've seen myReally nice post, Robin.
> son's perfectionism really back off in the last couple of years, and I
> think
> it was a combination of things that did it (including just getting older,
> of
> course).
I think, too, that truly succeeding in *something* helps too. Cameron's a
perfectionist. He is easily frustrated by things and used to give up quickly.
At 12, he became one the best magicians anywhere. Truly incredible. Some of
the BIG names in magic were in awe of this *little* boy with *little* hands
doing these amazing things (mostly manipulations). It took A LOT of doing
magic to get that good---and a lot of tears and frustration. But he saw what
he could accomplish.
Now, when he's frustrated at drawing or drumming or guitar or
filming/editting or writing or...whatever, I can point out how hard magic
was. And that he CAN do whatever he wants to do. He realizes now how hard
some things can be, but that if he just keeps working at it....
Anyway, the perfectionism isn't *gone*, but he's not as critical of himself
as he used to be. It's age, I'm sure. But it's also the knowledge that he's
done something even tougher before. And the more you do it, the better you
get.
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
treegoddess@... writes:
<< He draws or
writes and gets very frustrated and angry with himself when he "can't do
it right". >>
My son does this to himself with drawing, too, but with writing, he
doesn't. lol
I put up his Pikachu he drew on the wall, and he said it wasn't perfect.
I told him I knew it was Pikachu, what else was his goal? He said he wanted
it to be perfect, I told him he could trace it, but he didn't want that
either. I told him practice can make perfect, if that's really what you
want. It's still on the wall, wavily deformed, and I love it, lol. I told
him later, that's what I call art, when you feel something, not necessarily
when it's aesthetically perfect.
With writing, well, cursive anyway, when I ask him what letter this is, or
that, he looks at me like I "should" know. Told him that there are many ways
to write a letter, but it's gotta be a way "someone else" can recognize as
that letter! He didn't like that very much, hehehe. One, that I pointed out
something so obvious, and two, because that wasn't any fun.
I think he's developing his own secret cursive alphabet, now, actually, but
I can't be sure, because, of course, it's secret. He's got his arm wrapped
around the paper, and he's peering at me suspiciously whenever I walk by,
which I think is funny, because he knows I CAN'T READ IT!!! LOL
Perfectionism vs recognition, creativity vs set concrete goals. Do you write
or draw it so that someone else can read it or recognize it, and is that
your goal, or not? Making that distinction for him was useful. He forgets,
and gets frustrated drawing, and I remind him. A lot of the time I just ask
him, what's your goal, do you have one?, and that frees him up quite a bit.
And, btw, I'm not concerned at all about cursive, he'll probably decide to do
what his father does, which is to simply never write in cursive. They both
have short, thick fingers, and it's just not practical.
~Aimee
<< He draws or
writes and gets very frustrated and angry with himself when he "can't do
it right". >>
My son does this to himself with drawing, too, but with writing, he
doesn't. lol
I put up his Pikachu he drew on the wall, and he said it wasn't perfect.
I told him I knew it was Pikachu, what else was his goal? He said he wanted
it to be perfect, I told him he could trace it, but he didn't want that
either. I told him practice can make perfect, if that's really what you
want. It's still on the wall, wavily deformed, and I love it, lol. I told
him later, that's what I call art, when you feel something, not necessarily
when it's aesthetically perfect.
With writing, well, cursive anyway, when I ask him what letter this is, or
that, he looks at me like I "should" know. Told him that there are many ways
to write a letter, but it's gotta be a way "someone else" can recognize as
that letter! He didn't like that very much, hehehe. One, that I pointed out
something so obvious, and two, because that wasn't any fun.
I think he's developing his own secret cursive alphabet, now, actually, but
I can't be sure, because, of course, it's secret. He's got his arm wrapped
around the paper, and he's peering at me suspiciously whenever I walk by,
which I think is funny, because he knows I CAN'T READ IT!!! LOL
Perfectionism vs recognition, creativity vs set concrete goals. Do you write
or draw it so that someone else can read it or recognize it, and is that
your goal, or not? Making that distinction for him was useful. He forgets,
and gets frustrated drawing, and I remind him. A lot of the time I just ask
him, what's your goal, do you have one?, and that frees him up quite a bit.
And, btw, I'm not concerned at all about cursive, he'll probably decide to do
what his father does, which is to simply never write in cursive. They both
have short, thick fingers, and it's just not practical.
~Aimee
Tia Leschke
> My son does this to himself with drawing, too, but with writing, heFor kids who really want to draw things that look realistic, the book
> doesn't. lol
Drawing With Children by Mona Brooks (Brookes?) is a good one. It doesn't
seem to interfere at all with their creativity in terms of drawing made-up
things. It just helps them to draw what they're seeing. I've seen some
pretty amazing pictures by kids who had worked with it.
Tia
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
saftety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Ben Franklin
leschke@...
Olga
My 4yo is the same way. He rarely draws (which I have mentioned
before) and a few weeks ago he decided to draw a Harry Potter story
after we read something from Little Bill. He got SO frustrated
because the head was too big, the body was the wrong size, on and
on, ahhhh!! I kept trying to reassure him which just seemed to
frustate him more. Darn it if the minute I walked away he drew for
about an hour!! Who knew..LOL!!
BTW, Robin I loved your idea about making mistakes in front of them.
WE are pretty forthcoming in discussing when we screw up. Also, Dad
plays video games with him and he sees his Dad keep trying which I
think is helping him. Also, lately he has succeeded at a few things
so maybe that will help turn things around for him.
Olga :)
before) and a few weeks ago he decided to draw a Harry Potter story
after we read something from Little Bill. He got SO frustrated
because the head was too big, the body was the wrong size, on and
on, ahhhh!! I kept trying to reassure him which just seemed to
frustate him more. Darn it if the minute I walked away he drew for
about an hour!! Who knew..LOL!!
BTW, Robin I loved your idea about making mistakes in front of them.
WE are pretty forthcoming in discussing when we screw up. Also, Dad
plays video games with him and he sees his Dad keep trying which I
think is helping him. Also, lately he has succeeded at a few things
so maybe that will help turn things around for him.
Olga :)
--- In [email protected], AimeeL73@c... wrote:
> treegoddess@c... writes:
>
> << He draws or
> writes and gets very frustrated and angry with himself when
he "can't do
> it right". >>
>
>
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/19/03 2:25:54 PM, AimeeL73@... writes:
<< And, btw, I'm not concerned at all about cursive, he'll probably decide to
do
what his father does, which is to simply never write in cursive. They both
have short, thick fingers, and it's just not practical.
thick fingers. He was a silversmith as his art of preference. But his
handwriting, which I have in my elementary-school autograph book, was
BEAUTIFUL block printing, which he did quickly and expressively, with a felt
tip pen when they were new to the world.
Sandra
<< And, btw, I'm not concerned at all about cursive, he'll probably decide to
do
what his father does, which is to simply never write in cursive. They both
have short, thick fingers, and it's just not practical.
>>Hey! Mr. Montoya, the art teacher I mentioned whose son died, had short
thick fingers. He was a silversmith as his art of preference. But his
handwriting, which I have in my elementary-school autograph book, was
BEAUTIFUL block printing, which he did quickly and expressively, with a felt
tip pen when they were new to the world.
Sandra
[email protected]
leschke@... writes:
<< For kids who really want to draw things that look realistic, the book
Drawing With Children by Mona Brooks (Brookes?) is a good one. It doesn't
seem to interfere at all with their creativity in terms of drawing made-up
things. It just helps them to draw what they're seeing. I've seen some
pretty amazing pictures by kids who had worked with it.
Tia
He has a few "How to Draw.." books, like comic book characters and such, and
I think that's where he got the "Has to be perfect" idea.
~Aimee
<< For kids who really want to draw things that look realistic, the book
Drawing With Children by Mona Brooks (Brookes?) is a good one. It doesn't
seem to interfere at all with their creativity in terms of drawing made-up
things. It just helps them to draw what they're seeing. I've seen some
pretty amazing pictures by kids who had worked with it.
Tia
>>Thanks, that'll go on the library list, see if he digs it.
He has a few "How to Draw.." books, like comic book characters and such, and
I think that's where he got the "Has to be perfect" idea.
~Aimee
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/19/03 3:10:24 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
<< But his
handwriting, which I have in my elementary-school autograph book, was
BEAUTIFUL block printing, which he did quickly and expressively, with a felt
tip pen when they were new to the world.
Sandra >>
Hey! Too funny! My husband has beautiful printing, I tell him it looks
almost like it was typed, but much prettier, AND he loves felt tips, he got
mad at me when I used one, flattening and ruining his tip on him! Because
cursive, makes those annoying slants on them, rendering them useless for him.
Oops!
~Aimee
SandraDodd@... writes:
<< But his
handwriting, which I have in my elementary-school autograph book, was
BEAUTIFUL block printing, which he did quickly and expressively, with a felt
tip pen when they were new to the world.
Sandra >>
Hey! Too funny! My husband has beautiful printing, I tell him it looks
almost like it was typed, but much prettier, AND he loves felt tips, he got
mad at me when I used one, flattening and ruining his tip on him! Because
cursive, makes those annoying slants on them, rendering them useless for him.
Oops!
~Aimee