Julie Bogart

Hi all.

Not sure any of you remember me. I posted quite a bit in Jan and
Feb. Took a long hiatus when I had an Internet crisis. Since then,
I've been the "soccer" mom times three with multiple kids in
sports and activities. We've been unschooling in earnest since
January. And it's taken all my focus to make this transition from
a more traditional homeschooling approach. I check in here
mostly just reading when I find myself needing a pep talk.

I've taken the last several weeks to read up on NCP and TCS. I
noticed on this list that it came up here briefly for discussion.
What is it about NCP that makes several of you say: "Oh that is
definitely not what this list is about"? What is different about how
most of you unschoolers parent and how NCP comes across?

The tone of our home has improved dramatically since January
in most areas. I've seen our kids develop sibling harmony that
takes almost no help from me! That's been awesome. And they
seem to enjoy having more autonomy and control over their lives.

But recently in a family conversation, there were a couple of
comments that I wanted to chew on.

One of our kids is not liking the loss of the homeschool lifestyle
that we used to have. He liked the predictability of the routine, the
fact that all the kids were on the same schedule and that the
family had a united course of study. He's come to tears several
times over this and wishes we were back to the way we were. He
likes a measurable goal that he can tick off. But when I
suggested returning to a course of study for him, he resists
since he's not sure it will feel "real" if he's the only one doing it.

Another one worried that she only cared about her friendships
and was disappointed in herself to find that she isn't getting
hooked on any "interests." She thought that with the freedom to
explore anything she wanted to, she'd find something that
hooked her. I'm wondering if she is still judging her interests (as
though studying mythology--which she has loved in the past--is
somehow more worthy of her time and attention than her
friendships online and in person). After all, she has eight
international pen pals that she writes to all month, she's
completed a novella, has read three to five novels a week for
months, is redecorating her room using books on feng shui to
help her, and is studying Latin because "she wants to." I'm not
worried about her at all. But she's worried about herself.

The other three are doing really well with this new freedom. I do
notice that the X Box is interminably interesting to two of my boys.
They literally can do it all day every day. But they both are happy
and the younger of the two surprises me almost daily with the
ways he's learning math without any books at all. My youngest
(6) is suddenly having reading breakthroughs and we've done
nothing to teach her since Jan.

I was interested in NCP because I have noticed that resentment
created in children is the biggest barrier to an open, close
relationship. It's this openness and closeness I want to preserve
and foster. Are there dangers inherent in NCP that I ought to
know about? As I face all the decisions that involve my teens, I
am even more concerned that I understand how to support and
cheerlead them rather than harnessing, nagging and controlling
them.

Thanks for reading this post after so much time since my last
one. You ladies are inspiring! Our lives have changed since Jan
for the better and I have you all to thank.

Julie B

Have A Nice Day!

I'm not an expert on how NCP is defined, or how TCS is defined, but one is different than the other.

I think someone had a website on TCS that they gave me a long time ago, but I don't remember where it is anymore.

I agree that unschooling is easier if you are a non-coercive parent.

I'm really not sure how a coercive parent could unschool.

kristen


----- Original Message -----
From: Julie Bogart
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, May 17, 2003 7:28 PM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] NCP/TCS question


Hi all.

Not sure any of you remember me. I posted quite a bit in Jan and
Feb. Took a long hiatus when I had an Internet crisis. Since then,
I've been the "soccer" mom times three with multiple kids in
sports and activities. We've been unschooling in earnest since
January. And it's taken all my focus to make this transition from
a more traditional homeschooling approach. I check in here
mostly just reading when I find myself needing a pep talk.

I've taken the last several weeks to read up on NCP and TCS. I
noticed on this list that it came up here briefly for discussion.
What is it about NCP that makes several of you say: "Oh that is
definitely not what this list is about"? What is different about how
most of you unschoolers parent and how NCP comes across?

The tone of our home has improved dramatically since January
in most areas. I've seen our kids develop sibling harmony that
takes almost no help from me! That's been awesome. And they
seem to enjoy having more autonomy and control over their lives.

But recently in a family conversation, there were a couple of
comments that I wanted to chew on.

One of our kids is not liking the loss of the homeschool lifestyle
that we used to have. He liked the predictability of the routine, the
fact that all the kids were on the same schedule and that the
family had a united course of study. He's come to tears several
times over this and wishes we were back to the way we were. He
likes a measurable goal that he can tick off. But when I
suggested returning to a course of study for him, he resists
since he's not sure it will feel "real" if he's the only one doing it.

Another one worried that she only cared about her friendships
and was disappointed in herself to find that she isn't getting
hooked on any "interests." She thought that with the freedom to
explore anything she wanted to, she'd find something that
hooked her. I'm wondering if she is still judging her interests (as
though studying mythology--which she has loved in the past--is
somehow more worthy of her time and attention than her
friendships online and in person). After all, she has eight
international pen pals that she writes to all month, she's
completed a novella, has read three to five novels a week for
months, is redecorating her room using books on feng shui to
help her, and is studying Latin because "she wants to." I'm not
worried about her at all. But she's worried about herself.

The other three are doing really well with this new freedom. I do
notice that the X Box is interminably interesting to two of my boys.
They literally can do it all day every day. But they both are happy
and the younger of the two surprises me almost daily with the
ways he's learning math without any books at all. My youngest
(6) is suddenly having reading breakthroughs and we've done
nothing to teach her since Jan.

I was interested in NCP because I have noticed that resentment
created in children is the biggest barrier to an open, close
relationship. It's this openness and closeness I want to preserve
and foster. Are there dangers inherent in NCP that I ought to
know about? As I face all the decisions that involve my teens, I
am even more concerned that I understand how to support and
cheerlead them rather than harnessing, nagging and controlling
them.

Thanks for reading this post after so much time since my last
one. You ladies are inspiring! Our lives have changed since Jan
for the better and I have you all to thank.

Julie B


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Heidi

Hi Julie

I remember you! Jan/Feb was when i was on before, myself, and went
away to read for a bit, and then came back a few weeks ago! :) I had
wondered where you were.

it's a good place, innit, this bunch of yahoo...group members ;)

HeidiC


--- In [email protected], "Julie Bogart"
<julie@b...> wrote:
> Hi all.
>
> Not sure any of you remember me. I posted quite a bit in Jan and
> Feb. Took a long hiatus when I had an Internet crisis. Since then,
> I've been the "soccer" mom times three with multiple kids in
> sports and activities. We've been unschooling in earnest since
> January. And it's taken all my focus to make this transition from
> a more traditional homeschooling approach. I check in here
> mostly just reading when I find myself needing a pep talk.
>
> I've taken the last several weeks to read up on NCP and TCS. I
> noticed on this list that it came up here briefly for discussion.
> What is it about NCP that makes several of you say: "Oh that is
> definitely not what this list is about"? What is different about
how
> most of you unschoolers parent and how NCP comes across?
>
> The tone of our home has improved dramatically since January
> in most areas. I've seen our kids develop sibling harmony that
> takes almost no help from me! That's been awesome. And they
> seem to enjoy having more autonomy and control over their lives.
>
> But recently in a family conversation, there were a couple of
> comments that I wanted to chew on.
>
> One of our kids is not liking the loss of the homeschool lifestyle
> that we used to have. He liked the predictability of the routine,
the
> fact that all the kids were on the same schedule and that the
> family had a united course of study. He's come to tears several
> times over this and wishes we were back to the way we were. He
> likes a measurable goal that he can tick off. But when I
> suggested returning to a course of study for him, he resists
> since he's not sure it will feel "real" if he's the only one doing
it.
>
> Another one worried that she only cared about her friendships
> and was disappointed in herself to find that she isn't getting
> hooked on any "interests." She thought that with the freedom to
> explore anything she wanted to, she'd find something that
> hooked her. I'm wondering if she is still judging her interests (as
> though studying mythology--which she has loved in the past--is
> somehow more worthy of her time and attention than her
> friendships online and in person). After all, she has eight
> international pen pals that she writes to all month, she's
> completed a novella, has read three to five novels a week for
> months, is redecorating her room using books on feng shui to
> help her, and is studying Latin because "she wants to." I'm not
> worried about her at all. But she's worried about herself.
>
> The other three are doing really well with this new freedom. I do
> notice that the X Box is interminably interesting to two of my
boys.
> They literally can do it all day every day. But they both are happy
> and the younger of the two surprises me almost daily with the
> ways he's learning math without any books at all. My youngest
> (6) is suddenly having reading breakthroughs and we've done
> nothing to teach her since Jan.
>
> I was interested in NCP because I have noticed that resentment
> created in children is the biggest barrier to an open, close
> relationship. It's this openness and closeness I want to preserve
> and foster. Are there dangers inherent in NCP that I ought to
> know about? As I face all the decisions that involve my teens, I
> am even more concerned that I understand how to support and
> cheerlead them rather than harnessing, nagging and controlling
> them.
>
> Thanks for reading this post after so much time since my last
> one. You ladies are inspiring! Our lives have changed since Jan
> for the better and I have you all to thank.
>
> Julie B

Fetteroll

on 5/17/03 7:31 PM, Have A Nice Day! at litlrooh@... wrote:

> I agree that unschooling is easier if you are a non-coercive parent.
>
> I'm really not sure how a coercive parent could unschool.

And yet they do.

Unschooling is just about not doing school.

But I agree. I think it's easier to grasp unschooling if we extend the
philosophy into life. But that doesn't mean it's a requirement.

I think what's even harder to grasp is that many TCSers send their kids to
school.

Joyce

Fetteroll

on 5/17/03 7:28 PM, Julie Bogart at julie@... wrote:

> He's come to tears several
> times over this and wishes we were back to the way we were. He
> likes a measurable goal that he can tick off. But when I
> suggested returning to a course of study for him, he resists
> since he's not sure it will feel "real" if he's the only one doing it.

Maybe try to help him separate the aspects of what he enjoys from how he
wants to get it. Obviously it wouldn't be fair for the whole family to stop
doing what they're enjoying and go back to what they were doing before so
that he can get what he wants.

Perhaps what he likes is the predictability of the day and the clear goals
to reach. It's very satisfying knowing there's a goal to reach and a time
limit and then accomplishing that.

*But* he hasn't had the experience of setting his own goals and reaching
them. It's going to feel initially unsatisfying knowing that he doesn't have
to reach a goal. That he can drop it at any time. That he can set the bar so
low that he could reach it with his eyes closed.

And he's probably going to think in terms of school-like goals: completing a
chapter by the end of the week, answering all the questions at the end of
the chapter. Those are all arbitrary goals so they've needed someone to
assign them and enforce them in the past in order to make them "real".

So what he needs are real goals for real personally meaningful reasons. He's
stuck, a lot like kids who have been working to acheive As and Bs. If the As
and Bs are taken away, then what's the purpose of working they wonder?

So maybe talk to him about personal goals. He *does* need time to deschool
so he can come to value personal goals more than artificial arbitrary ones.
The summer should help. So maybe talk to him about summer-type things he'd
like to accomplish like learning to swim better or a family bike trip to the
top of a local mountain or finding a great book series or watching all the
James Bond movies in chronological order.

And as for predictable days, perhaps you could write the days schedule down
for him so he knows what's happening that day. (Be sure to schedule in
"recess" so that you have the freedom to do something that isn't scheduled
;-)

> Another one worried that she only cared about her friendships
> and was disappointed in herself to find that she isn't getting
> hooked on any "interests."

This is again about deschooling. Kids get convinced that school is the only
way to learn just as fully as adults do. We assume that kids will embrace
freedom as soon as they're given it, but they get brainwashed by the system
too.

It would help to acknowledge her feelings. You've changed the rules on her
and she was attached to the old rules. Maybe share that you're sorry that
you didn't find unschooling earlier because it isn't fair that she has to
learn to *re*value her interests. She should have been naturally valuing
them all along.

And talk about how it's natural for teens to value friendships. It's part of
the process of being a teen and the journey to adulthood. She needs that
part of the journey.

Perhaps it would help if she wrote down what she's doing so she can see all
the things she *is* accomplishing.

Joyce

Fetteroll

on 5/17/03 7:28 PM, Julie Bogart at julie@... wrote:

> What is it about NCP that makes several of you say: "Oh that is
> definitely not what this list is about"? What is different about how
> most of you unschoolers parent and how NCP comes across?

Taking Children Seriously (TCS) is the parenting philosophy of Sarah
Lawrence. (http://www.TCS.ac/)

Non-Coercive Parenting (NCP) is the method they use.

Maybe the difference between NCP and mindful parenting is that NCP is the
TCSers technique to become mindful parents. It's very specifically focused
on not coercing children and becoming great problem solvers to avoid using
coercion as a parenting tool.

Whereas the focus of mindful parenting is on seeing children as fellow human
beings and helping them be who they are.

The problem with NCP -- at least talking about it here outside the
atmosphere of TCS -- is that it's about how to implement a rule -- don't
coerce -- and not about a philosophy of how to respect children as fellow
human beings.

Mindful parents generally won't coerce because it isn't how we'd want others
to treat us, not because someone decided coercion was damaging.

In practice they would probably look the same outwardly so the difference is
more internal and in how we talk about it to help people understand.

Joyce

Tia Leschke

> I think what's even harder to grasp is that many TCSers send their kids to
> school.

That one floors me. What do they do if/when the child doesn't want to go?
Tia

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
saftety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Ben Franklin
leschke@...

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/17/03 5:29:46 PM, julie@... writes:

<< Another one worried that she only cared about her friendships

and was disappointed in herself to find that she isn't getting

hooked on any "interests." >>

Maybe if you share a list of Gardner's multiple intelligences with her, she
might see herself in the interpersonal and intrapersonal intelligences, and
if so, you can talk to her about what those are good for "in the real world"
(paid-job world that she might be worrying about)--counselling, management,
public relations, personnel matters, meeting-and-greeting kinds of jobs with
airlines, restaurants, hotels, conventions... Then just being interested in
friends might seem the gateway to a large chunk of adult interests and
pursuits.

<<After all, she has eight

international pen pals that she writes to all month, she's

completed a novella, has read three to five novels a week for

months, is redecorating her room using books on feng shui to

help her, and is studying Latin because "she wants to." >>

OH gosh. Add international relations and professional advisor on protocol to
the list!!!

Sandra

Julie Bogart

Thanks Joyce and Sandra for your great replies about my kids.

Sandra, my daughter did say she'd like to be a therapist for teens
when she's an adult. :) So that fits with what you suggested here.

Joyce, your advice about how to handle my son who needs order
and goals was on the money. Thanks for the pracitcal tips.

Julie B

--- In [email protected],
SandraDodd@a... wrote:
>
> In a message dated 5/17/03 5:29:46 PM, julie@b... writes:
>
> << Another one worried that she only cared about her
friendships
>
> and was disappointed in herself to find that she isn't getting
>
> hooked on any "interests." >>
>
> Maybe if you share a list of Gardner's multiple intelligences
with her, she
> might see herself in the interpersonal and intrapersonal
intelligences, and
> if so, you can talk to her about what those are good for "in the
real world"
> (paid-job world that she might be worrying about)--counselling,
management,
> public relations, personnel matters, meeting-and-greeting
kinds of jobs with
> airlines, restaurants, hotels, conventions... Then just being
interested in
> friends might seem the gateway to a large chunk of adult
interests and
> pursuits.
>
> <<After all, she has eight
>
> international pen pals that she writes to all month, she's
>
> completed a novella, has read three to five novels a week for
>
> months, is redecorating her room using books on feng shui to
>
> help her, and is studying Latin because "she wants to." >>
>
> OH gosh. Add international relations and professional advisor
on protocol to
> the list!!!
>
> Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/18/03 11:25:00 AM, leschke@... writes:

<< > I think what's even harder to grasp is that many TCSers send their kids
to

> school.


<<That one floors me. What do they do if/when the child doesn't want to go?
>>

Hey ask them!!!

They won't tell you.

My main difference/irritation with the core of that "group" (I've only seen
writings from two people, honestly, or two women and one woman's husband, so
two families represented) is that they refuse to tell stories about their own
families and actual experiences. It's all theoretical and philosophical, and
it has been stated (elswhere, elsetime past) that the unschooling discussions
were disrepectful of our children because we told stories about them.

My model and source-place for this is La Leche League. In La Leche League we
talked about our real babies and our real experiences. It wouldn't have been
worth a damn otherwise.

They won't even tell how old their kids are. It's private information.

When one of the moms was active on the elsewhere homeschooling discussions,
she was often a wrench in the gears, by calling compromise coercion, and by
calling persuasion coercion.

There have been some unschoolers who reall did like the philosophy and have
adopted lots of the principles in their homes, but the discussions pretty
much HAVE to be separate, since we talk about kids and they won't.

Sandra

Sandra

When there was a TCS activist on the