I have an honest question...
[email protected]
so please don't yell at me. First, some explanation of where I am coming
from:
I have been working as a home instructor for almost 20 years for various
school districts, so I've seen many, many types of kids in many, many types
of situations. I have 3 sons of my own, and started homeschooling/unschooling
my 13 year old son in January. (I have a son in college, and one who will
graduate from high school this June, even though the school is driving me
NUTS.) I'm trying to find that line between unschooling and a free for all.
If I could do anything I wanted all day, of course I would be happy. If I
let my son do anything he wants, my house runs a lot smoother. We've never
had bedtimes or meal restrictions (of their own volition, my son and I are
vegan and another son is veggie). We try hard not to judge others, but we're
not perfect. We have very few rules in my house, but the few I have are to
be taken seriously: have respect for others, help when you can, have manners,
and we're a family, not a bunch of people sharing a house. OK, my question:
when does it cross the line from unschooling into a lack of manners? My kids
and I and my husband may have an (almost) equal say in how the family is run,
but the kids don't have more say than we do. I'm getting the impression from
some of the posts that the kids are running the household, which makes the
house run smoother, as there is nothing to argue about. But I also don't
want to turn into a mother who is so nice to their kid, I get run over in the
process. I hope this is making sense. I am NOT insulting anyone or looking
at anyone in particular; I'm asking an honest question and would like some
honest answers. Thanks.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
from:
I have been working as a home instructor for almost 20 years for various
school districts, so I've seen many, many types of kids in many, many types
of situations. I have 3 sons of my own, and started homeschooling/unschooling
my 13 year old son in January. (I have a son in college, and one who will
graduate from high school this June, even though the school is driving me
NUTS.) I'm trying to find that line between unschooling and a free for all.
If I could do anything I wanted all day, of course I would be happy. If I
let my son do anything he wants, my house runs a lot smoother. We've never
had bedtimes or meal restrictions (of their own volition, my son and I are
vegan and another son is veggie). We try hard not to judge others, but we're
not perfect. We have very few rules in my house, but the few I have are to
be taken seriously: have respect for others, help when you can, have manners,
and we're a family, not a bunch of people sharing a house. OK, my question:
when does it cross the line from unschooling into a lack of manners? My kids
and I and my husband may have an (almost) equal say in how the family is run,
but the kids don't have more say than we do. I'm getting the impression from
some of the posts that the kids are running the household, which makes the
house run smoother, as there is nothing to argue about. But I also don't
want to turn into a mother who is so nice to their kid, I get run over in the
process. I hope this is making sense. I am NOT insulting anyone or looking
at anyone in particular; I'm asking an honest question and would like some
honest answers. Thanks.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
zenmomma2kids
>> I'm getting the impression from some of the posts that the kidsare running the household, which makes the house run smoother, as
there is nothing to argue about. But I also don't want to turn into
a mother who is so nice to their kid, I get run over in the process.>>
It would help me to answer if you could be more specific. What posts
sounded like the kids were running the household? Can you give a
specific example?
Life is good.
~Mary
[email protected]
One was the example of the kid interrupting the parent's conversation with a
friend. I saw that as the kid being rude, but others came up with solutions
to still include the kid. Is that an unschooling idea, for kids to be
included in everything the parents do? I feel stupid reoeating this, but I
really want to know and understand; I don't mean to be rude or judgemental.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
friend. I saw that as the kid being rude, but others came up with solutions
to still include the kid. Is that an unschooling idea, for kids to be
included in everything the parents do? I feel stupid reoeating this, but I
really want to know and understand; I don't mean to be rude or judgemental.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/17/03 12:55:59 PM, Smmecca22@... writes:
<< OK, my question:
when does it cross the line from unschooling into a lack of manners? >>
How is unschooling affecting your child's manners?
You already wrote this:
-=-We have very few rules in my house, but the few I have are to
be taken seriously: have respect for others, help when you can, have manners,
and we're a family, not a bunch of people sharing a house. -=-
I can't imagine how not using a curriculum would affect his manners.
<< But I also don't want to turn into a mother who is so nice to their kid, I
get run over in the
process. >>
Okay. I don't know anyone else who does either.
<<I'm asking an honest question and would like some
honest answers. >>
I didn't see a question, really. I saw you expressing general uneasiness.
If the only question is this: "<< OK, my question:
when does it cross the line from unschooling into a lack of manners? "
And you're not having a problem with that, and you don't know of anyone else
who is having a problem with that, what's the question?
There's lots more to read about unschooling here
http://www.unschooling.com
and
http://sandradodd.com/unschooling
and by going to google.com and searching for unschooling,
if you're just vaguely uneasy.
Here's my growing collection of typical days, if typical days will make you
feel better:
http://sandradodd.com/typical
Sandra
<< OK, my question:
when does it cross the line from unschooling into a lack of manners? >>
How is unschooling affecting your child's manners?
You already wrote this:
-=-We have very few rules in my house, but the few I have are to
be taken seriously: have respect for others, help when you can, have manners,
and we're a family, not a bunch of people sharing a house. -=-
I can't imagine how not using a curriculum would affect his manners.
<< But I also don't want to turn into a mother who is so nice to their kid, I
get run over in the
process. >>
Okay. I don't know anyone else who does either.
<<I'm asking an honest question and would like some
honest answers. >>
I didn't see a question, really. I saw you expressing general uneasiness.
If the only question is this: "<< OK, my question:
when does it cross the line from unschooling into a lack of manners? "
And you're not having a problem with that, and you don't know of anyone else
who is having a problem with that, what's the question?
There's lots more to read about unschooling here
http://www.unschooling.com
and
http://sandradodd.com/unschooling
and by going to google.com and searching for unschooling,
if you're just vaguely uneasy.
Here's my growing collection of typical days, if typical days will make you
feel better:
http://sandradodd.com/typical
Sandra
[email protected]
Gee thanks, I try to ask a question, and get smart remarks back. Stupid me,
thinking I could learn something without feeling like I'm in SCHOOL! This is
so 7th grade, it's ridiculous. HInt to lurkers: stay there. Don't ask a
question or comment. Your input is not wanted.
Sue
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
thinking I could learn something without feeling like I'm in SCHOOL! This is
so 7th grade, it's ridiculous. HInt to lurkers: stay there. Don't ask a
question or comment. Your input is not wanted.
Sue
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sheila Terry
^^^^We have very few rules in my house, but the few I have are to
be taken seriously: have respect for others, help when you can, have manners,
and we're a family, not a bunch of people sharing a house. OK, my question:
when does it cross the line from unschooling into a lack of manners?^^^^
Here is my very short thoughts on this. The majority of what has been discussed lately has not been unschooling but non-coercive parenting. Your question is asking about 2 different things, IMO. Unschooling is an educational choice while NCP is a parenting style. Obviously since we homeschool our educational choice and our parenting style overlap. Which is why NCP comes up in so many of the unschooling conversations. I imagine it would be difficult to be a NCP and not unschool your child. However, I do think it is possible to unschool your child while not being a NCP.
Sheila
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
be taken seriously: have respect for others, help when you can, have manners,
and we're a family, not a bunch of people sharing a house. OK, my question:
when does it cross the line from unschooling into a lack of manners?^^^^
Here is my very short thoughts on this. The majority of what has been discussed lately has not been unschooling but non-coercive parenting. Your question is asking about 2 different things, IMO. Unschooling is an educational choice while NCP is a parenting style. Obviously since we homeschool our educational choice and our parenting style overlap. Which is why NCP comes up in so many of the unschooling conversations. I imagine it would be difficult to be a NCP and not unschool your child. However, I do think it is possible to unschool your child while not being a NCP.
Sheila
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
Thank you, Sheila. I'm beginning to understand. : )
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
averyschmidt
> Gee thanks, I try to ask a question, and get smart remarks back.Stupid me,
> thinking I could learn something without feeling like I'm inSCHOOL! This is
> so 7th grade, it's ridiculous. HInt to lurkers: stay there. Don'task a
> question or comment. Your input is not wanted.Huh? Where were the smart, ridiculous, 7th grade remarks? Were
they deleted? Were they off-list?
Confused,
Patti
Deborah Lewis
***One was the example of the kid interrupting the parent's conversation
with a
friend. I saw that as the kid being rude, but others came up with
solutions
to still include the kid. ***
It's a perception difference then.
I didn't think the ten (or was he eleven) year old was being rude. I saw
him as interested and engaged.
I don't think kids want to be rude, unless they've had rudeness
demonstrated to them. I saw this child as feeling very confident that
his presence was welcome and valued and I think that's wonderful.
I saw him as not yet fully understanding the common ideas about courteous
conversation. That's not rudeness, just a kind of innocence.
I think his mom was pretty cool to let him hang out with her when she had
friends over. I think he's learning about polite and friendly
conversation because he gets to hang out with her.
The mom was worried that others would think it was rude, not that her
child actually *is* rude.
She was looking for a way to make everyone feel ok about it, and maybe
help her son understand how others might be feeling. She wanted to be
respectful of his feelings because she knew he wasn't *trying* to bother
anyone. He was only trying to participate.
Viewing children as good and as having good intentions is mightily
different than societies view of children as little critters who need
training. Unschoolers tend to look upon their children as whole and
good and hoping for the very best for themselves and others.
Do you think children who have been treated with respect would want to be
rude or disrespectful to others?
I don't think they would. That hasn't been my experience in my home.
I don't think there are only the two choices; either parents are in
charge or the child is. I think a healthier approach is parents and
children as partners in the family.
Now I forgot the question.
Deb L
with a
friend. I saw that as the kid being rude, but others came up with
solutions
to still include the kid. ***
It's a perception difference then.
I didn't think the ten (or was he eleven) year old was being rude. I saw
him as interested and engaged.
I don't think kids want to be rude, unless they've had rudeness
demonstrated to them. I saw this child as feeling very confident that
his presence was welcome and valued and I think that's wonderful.
I saw him as not yet fully understanding the common ideas about courteous
conversation. That's not rudeness, just a kind of innocence.
I think his mom was pretty cool to let him hang out with her when she had
friends over. I think he's learning about polite and friendly
conversation because he gets to hang out with her.
The mom was worried that others would think it was rude, not that her
child actually *is* rude.
She was looking for a way to make everyone feel ok about it, and maybe
help her son understand how others might be feeling. She wanted to be
respectful of his feelings because she knew he wasn't *trying* to bother
anyone. He was only trying to participate.
Viewing children as good and as having good intentions is mightily
different than societies view of children as little critters who need
training. Unschoolers tend to look upon their children as whole and
good and hoping for the very best for themselves and others.
Do you think children who have been treated with respect would want to be
rude or disrespectful to others?
I don't think they would. That hasn't been my experience in my home.
I don't think there are only the two choices; either parents are in
charge or the child is. I think a healthier approach is parents and
children as partners in the family.
Now I forgot the question.
Deb L
jmcseals SEALS
In my opinion, healthy children who rule the roost have not been given
proper models to emulate, nor proper guidlines to follow. My children are
well behaved, respectful, cooperative and kind because that is how they are
treated. I don't want my tv on 24 hours a day but I have never had to say
that out loud because *I* don't sit in front of it all day and they are
given a wide variety of opportunities to explore other areas in life. Sure,
my kids can sit for hours with the tv on, but rarely are they glued to the
set. When I see they are otherwise occupied, I quietly turn it off without
complaints. I may offer a trip to the park or a read aloud book.
If I want to talk to a friend in private or without being interrupted, they
understand and respect my need for a quiet conversation and will find other
ways to occupy their time. If they do interrupt or are especially needy, I
ask them to wait until I am done talking or may excuse myself to help them
find something else to do in the meantime, but I don't let them walk all
over me. They have no problem with that because they are given the same
respect with their time and need for privacy. I can't imagine jumping in to
their conversations to ask questions or to have things repeated that clearly
don't involve me. It would drive them crazy! In return, they don't do that
to me either. If for some reason they did suddenly begin to do these
things, I would be looking for other reasons for the behavior and addressing
those needs.
You aren't imagining it, some people do let their kids walk all over them!
It has nothing to do with unschooling because I could tell you a million
stories about schooled children I know that do the same thing. It's a
parenting issue of boundaries, principles and guidelines. Some people have
more than others. Some people have none at all.
HTH,
Jennifer
_________________________________________________________________
Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
proper models to emulate, nor proper guidlines to follow. My children are
well behaved, respectful, cooperative and kind because that is how they are
treated. I don't want my tv on 24 hours a day but I have never had to say
that out loud because *I* don't sit in front of it all day and they are
given a wide variety of opportunities to explore other areas in life. Sure,
my kids can sit for hours with the tv on, but rarely are they glued to the
set. When I see they are otherwise occupied, I quietly turn it off without
complaints. I may offer a trip to the park or a read aloud book.
If I want to talk to a friend in private or without being interrupted, they
understand and respect my need for a quiet conversation and will find other
ways to occupy their time. If they do interrupt or are especially needy, I
ask them to wait until I am done talking or may excuse myself to help them
find something else to do in the meantime, but I don't let them walk all
over me. They have no problem with that because they are given the same
respect with their time and need for privacy. I can't imagine jumping in to
their conversations to ask questions or to have things repeated that clearly
don't involve me. It would drive them crazy! In return, they don't do that
to me either. If for some reason they did suddenly begin to do these
things, I would be looking for other reasons for the behavior and addressing
those needs.
You aren't imagining it, some people do let their kids walk all over them!
It has nothing to do with unschooling because I could tell you a million
stories about schooled children I know that do the same thing. It's a
parenting issue of boundaries, principles and guidelines. Some people have
more than others. Some people have none at all.
HTH,
Jennifer
_________________________________________________________________
Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Mary
From: <Smmecca22@...>
<<Gee thanks, I try to ask a question, and get smart remarks back. Stupid
me,
thinking I could learn something without feeling like I'm in SCHOOL! This
is
so 7th grade, it's ridiculous. HInt to lurkers: stay there. Don't ask a
question or comment. Your input is not wanted.>>
Please hang around and I'm sure you will get the info you were asking for. I
too was wondering about what Mary mentioned. She asked sincerely what
exactly you were looking for and will try and help. Others will too.
As far as the example you gave, I didn't really follow it as most people
were not seeing it as a problem. I feel some conversations are not meant for
my kids to hear and be involved in. I make sure they are not around and busy
with other things when that happens. If I didn't care and it didn't bother
me, then I wouldn't let what others thought make a difference. If my
children are really into watching something interesting on tv and very upset
with me if I try to talk to them, then I would explain to them those
circumstances when it may happen with me. I would guess that if that
conversation situation would come up here, I would try and do the same. So
for me, no it wouldn't be okay but I would definately try to solve that
problem in a gentle understanding way.
Mary B
<<Gee thanks, I try to ask a question, and get smart remarks back. Stupid
me,
thinking I could learn something without feeling like I'm in SCHOOL! This
is
so 7th grade, it's ridiculous. HInt to lurkers: stay there. Don't ask a
question or comment. Your input is not wanted.>>
Please hang around and I'm sure you will get the info you were asking for. I
too was wondering about what Mary mentioned. She asked sincerely what
exactly you were looking for and will try and help. Others will too.
As far as the example you gave, I didn't really follow it as most people
were not seeing it as a problem. I feel some conversations are not meant for
my kids to hear and be involved in. I make sure they are not around and busy
with other things when that happens. If I didn't care and it didn't bother
me, then I wouldn't let what others thought make a difference. If my
children are really into watching something interesting on tv and very upset
with me if I try to talk to them, then I would explain to them those
circumstances when it may happen with me. I would guess that if that
conversation situation would come up here, I would try and do the same. So
for me, no it wouldn't be okay but I would definately try to solve that
problem in a gentle understanding way.
Mary B
Fetteroll
on 5/17/03 3:41 PM, Smmecca22@... at Smmecca22@... wrote:
She's unsubscribed by the way.
Joyce
> Gee thanks, I try to ask a question, and get smart remarks back.Goodness!
She's unsubscribed by the way.
Joyce
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/17/03 1:43:20 PM, Smmecca22@... writes:
<< Gee thanks, I try to ask a question, and get smart remarks back. Stupid
me,
thinking I could learn something without feeling like I'm in SCHOOL! This is
so 7th grade, it's ridiculous. HInt to lurkers: stay there. Don't ask a
question or comment. Your input is not wanted. >>
So you're saying it wasn't really an honest question, and you didn't want to
have anyone inquire about what you meant by it?
I believe the apology at the top of the first post was not really fear of the
list, but acknowledgement that it was NOT "an honest question," but a veiled
suggestion that we let our kids run our lives and be rude and we have some
unschooling policy of letting kids be involved in everything parents do.
If you had read all the responses to the question about the kid who
interrupted you would have seen me and two or three others say he should not
be in or around the conversation if it was important to the other person and
didn't involve him. Yet your honest question suggested you only read people
brainstorming how to help him understand.
Someone suggested this was an "NCP" distinction, but it's not. "Non-coercive
parenting" is a practically-trademarked term for a group called Taking
Children Seriously. They're doing a whole different thing from this. What's
discussed on this list is from the angle of attachment parenting, partnership
with the kids, and respect for them as people. To have characterized this
list as discussing NCP is not correct.
Sandra
<< Gee thanks, I try to ask a question, and get smart remarks back. Stupid
me,
thinking I could learn something without feeling like I'm in SCHOOL! This is
so 7th grade, it's ridiculous. HInt to lurkers: stay there. Don't ask a
question or comment. Your input is not wanted. >>
So you're saying it wasn't really an honest question, and you didn't want to
have anyone inquire about what you meant by it?
I believe the apology at the top of the first post was not really fear of the
list, but acknowledgement that it was NOT "an honest question," but a veiled
suggestion that we let our kids run our lives and be rude and we have some
unschooling policy of letting kids be involved in everything parents do.
If you had read all the responses to the question about the kid who
interrupted you would have seen me and two or three others say he should not
be in or around the conversation if it was important to the other person and
didn't involve him. Yet your honest question suggested you only read people
brainstorming how to help him understand.
Someone suggested this was an "NCP" distinction, but it's not. "Non-coercive
parenting" is a practically-trademarked term for a group called Taking
Children Seriously. They're doing a whole different thing from this. What's
discussed on this list is from the angle of attachment parenting, partnership
with the kids, and respect for them as people. To have characterized this
list as discussing NCP is not correct.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/17/03 2:34:13 PM, ddzimlew@... writes:
<< Now I forgot the question. >>
The question was "Don't you all let your children run the house and aren't
all your children rude? Is that how all unschoolers are?" and it had the
"King's X" of an intro that said "don't yell at me" and a disclaimer that it
wasn't an accusation.
I don't want you to get mad at me for saying this, Deb, but can't you read?
I'm not accusing you of anything.
Sandra
<< Now I forgot the question. >>
The question was "Don't you all let your children run the house and aren't
all your children rude? Is that how all unschoolers are?" and it had the
"King's X" of an intro that said "don't yell at me" and a disclaimer that it
wasn't an accusation.
I don't want you to get mad at me for saying this, Deb, but can't you read?
I'm not accusing you of anything.
Sandra
jmcseals SEALS
**Someone suggested this was an "NCP" distinction, but it's not.
"Non-coercive
parenting" is a practically-trademarked term for a group called Taking
Children Seriously. They're doing a whole different thing from this.
What's
discussed on this list is from the angle of attachment parenting,
partnership
with the kids, and respect for them as people. To have characterized this
list as discussing NCP is not correct.***
I must absolutely 100% agree with this statement! I've been on that list,
long ago. Not the same thing at ALL.
Jennifer
_________________________________________________________________
The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE*
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
"Non-coercive
parenting" is a practically-trademarked term for a group called Taking
Children Seriously. They're doing a whole different thing from this.
What's
discussed on this list is from the angle of attachment parenting,
partnership
with the kids, and respect for them as people. To have characterized this
list as discussing NCP is not correct.***
I must absolutely 100% agree with this statement! I've been on that list,
long ago. Not the same thing at ALL.
Jennifer
_________________________________________________________________
The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/17/2003 4:44:09 PM Eastern Standard Time,
fetteroll@... writes:
Nice........
Laura D
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
fetteroll@... writes:
> on 5/17/03 3:41 PM, Smmecca22@... at Smmecca22@... wrote:What!!!!!!!!!!!
>
> >Gee thanks, I try to ask a question, and get smart remarks back.
>
> Goodness!
>
> She's unsubscribed by the way.
>
> Joyce
Nice........
Laura D
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Deborah Lewis
***I don't want you to get mad at me for saying this, Deb, but can't you
read?
I'm not accusing you of anything.***
Smart ass! <g>
Deb, the name caller.
read?
I'm not accusing you of anything.***
Smart ass! <g>
Deb, the name caller.
zenmomma2kids
>>One was the example of the kid interrupting the parent'sconversation with a friend. I saw that as the kid being rude, but
others came up with solutions to still include the kid. Is that an
unschooling idea, for kids to be included in everything the parents
do? >>
Well I think that with unschooling you want your child to feel
comfortable asking questions. I know that around here there are times
when I feel it's perfectly appropriate for my kids to ask questions
during conversations. They are included in a lot of adult activities
and not just relegated to the "kid table." I want them to ask about
what they don't understand. That's unschooling.
But that's not to say that the kid in question wasn't doing it too
much. It sounds like he was interrupting and being a little rude. I
think the mom was trying to find a solution that goes beyond just
saying "stop being rude." It's trying to find the reason why the
child is behaving this way. I doubt it's just that no one ever
mentioned to him that interruptions are rude. He's looking for
something and the mom was looking for a gentle way to help him get
what he needs while still maintaining her right to have an
uninterrupted conversation.
Life is good.
~Mary
Have A Nice Day!
Oh my goodness.
I tried the TCS list too. I dont' know why but I cannot "get" that at all.
kristen
I tried the TCS list too. I dont' know why but I cannot "get" that at all.
kristen
----- Original Message -----
From: jmcseals SEALS
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, May 17, 2003 5:02 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] I have an honest question...
**Someone suggested this was an "NCP" distinction, but it's not.
"Non-coercive
parenting" is a practically-trademarked term for a group called Taking
Children Seriously. They're doing a whole different thing from this.
What's
discussed on this list is from the angle of attachment parenting,
partnership
with the kids, and respect for them as people. To have characterized this
list as discussing NCP is not correct.***
I must absolutely 100% agree with this statement! I've been on that list,
long ago. Not the same thing at ALL.
Jennifer
_________________________________________________________________
The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE*
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Heidi
HeidiC here.
Okay, that "Some Observations" post of mine? I take it back, esp. the
part about newbees being addressed with irritation or aggravation...
if this kind of response to some "More Details Please" replies is
typical, then...if youse get irritated,
GO GIRL...GO GIRL(S) :)
HeidiC
Okay, that "Some Observations" post of mine? I take it back, esp. the
part about newbees being addressed with irritation or aggravation...
if this kind of response to some "More Details Please" replies is
typical, then...if youse get irritated,
GO GIRL...GO GIRL(S) :)
HeidiC
--- In [email protected], Smmecca22@a... wrote:
> Gee thanks, I try to ask a question, and get smart remarks back.
Stupid me,
> thinking I could learn something without feeling like I'm in SCHOOL!
This is
> so 7th grade, it's ridiculous. HInt to lurkers: stay there. Don't
ask a
> question or comment. Your input is not wanted.
>
> Sue
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Heidi
--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
examples" came from...and where her weird, defensive garbage came
from, I don't know.
But you seem to be reading more into her question/tone than is there.
You think it's possible for Sue to have been a little confused about
how to let your kids choose their pastimes, and have a gross
misunderstanding about how parenting styles and schooling styles
cross, without it being an attack on unschooling?
fact is, Sue did NOT post the question you have given here, that I've
seen. If she did, will you link me to that post? and I think her tone
was alright, though maybe the "please don't yell at me" may be a clue
to you more experienced on the list.
HeidiC
>aren't
> In a message dated 5/17/03 2:34:13 PM, ddzimlew@j... writes:
>
> << Now I forgot the question. >>
>
> The question was "Don't you all let your children run the house and
> all your children rude? Is that how all unschoolers are?" and ithad the
> "King's X" of an intro that said "don't yell at me" and a disclaimerthat it
> wasn't an accusation.Sandra, the question was (and I QUOTE:)"so, my question is..."
>
>when does it cross the line from unschooling into a lack of manners?and then she added this stuff:
>My kids and I and my husband may have an (almost) equal say in howwhich is where the first response "will you please post some specific
>the family is run, but the kids don't have more say than we do. I'm
>getting the impression from some of the posts that the kids are
>running the household, which makes the house run smoother, as there
>is nothing to argue about. But I also don't want to turn into a
>mother who is so nice to their kid, I get run over in the process.
examples" came from...and where her weird, defensive garbage came
from, I don't know.
But you seem to be reading more into her question/tone than is there.
You think it's possible for Sue to have been a little confused about
how to let your kids choose their pastimes, and have a gross
misunderstanding about how parenting styles and schooling styles
cross, without it being an attack on unschooling?
fact is, Sue did NOT post the question you have given here, that I've
seen. If she did, will you link me to that post? and I think her tone
was alright, though maybe the "please don't yell at me" may be a clue
to you more experienced on the list.
HeidiC
> I don't want you to get mad at me for saying this, Deb, but can'tyou read?
> I'm not accusing you of anything.
>
> Sandra
zenmomma2kids
>>Viewing children as good and as having good intentions is mightilydifferent than societies view of children as little critters who need
training. Unschoolers tend to look upon their children as whole and
good and hoping for the very best for themselves and others.>>
Oooh...I like Deb L's answer. :o)
Life is good.
~Mary
coyote's corner
I looked away for a second, honest....and missed the whole thing!!
Janis
Janis
----- Original Message -----
From: Fetteroll
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, May 17, 2003 4:43 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] I have an honest question...
on 5/17/03 3:41 PM, Smmecca22@... at Smmecca22@... wrote:
> Gee thanks, I try to ask a question, and get smart remarks back.
Goodness!
She's unsubscribed by the way.
Joyce
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/17/03 3:31:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
Smmecca22@... writes:
Someone may have already answered better than I but here it goes.
We live together as a family. My boys and dh and I always try to have a
win-win situation with everyone having input into the daily and not so daily
activities. We compromise a lot and have respect for each others feelings
and opinions.
I do recognize, however, that my boys are young and are still forming their
own path. They do not have the patience that I have, referring to the
interrupted conversation. If it is truly a private conversation I will
explain this ahead of time and they will busy themselves with something else,
that has happened here. That is where our years of being considerate come
in. They are respectful of me. They know that I mean what I say. They know
that if it isn't a private conversation they are free to be with me. They
usually aren't interested though. If they have something to tell me or need
me for something they know they can interrupt and I will listen, I will
usually ask the adult to hold for a minute because I know that my 6 year old
can't. To him, what he has to say is important, and I listen.
Another example is : I take them where they need to go, I can drive, they
can't. And I don't make judgments on where they need to go. To them the
park is just as important as the grocery store. We make lots of compromises.
I think it comes down to respect and trust.
If my boys forget to say please it isn't because they are trying to be mean.
They are doing the best they can. I try my best to be a good role model for
them.
Anyway not sure I was any help at all. If you could elaborate about what you
consider bad manners, like the conversation situation it might help.
Pam G.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Smmecca22@... writes:
> One was the example of the kid interrupting the parent's conversation with aI did read your first post but wanted to jump off of this specific question.
>
> friend. I saw that as the kid being rude, but others came up with
> solutions
> to still include the kid. Is that an unschooling idea, for kids to be
> included in everything the parents do? I feel stupid reoeating this, but I
>
> really want to know and understand; I don't mean to be rude or judgemental
Someone may have already answered better than I but here it goes.
We live together as a family. My boys and dh and I always try to have a
win-win situation with everyone having input into the daily and not so daily
activities. We compromise a lot and have respect for each others feelings
and opinions.
I do recognize, however, that my boys are young and are still forming their
own path. They do not have the patience that I have, referring to the
interrupted conversation. If it is truly a private conversation I will
explain this ahead of time and they will busy themselves with something else,
that has happened here. That is where our years of being considerate come
in. They are respectful of me. They know that I mean what I say. They know
that if it isn't a private conversation they are free to be with me. They
usually aren't interested though. If they have something to tell me or need
me for something they know they can interrupt and I will listen, I will
usually ask the adult to hold for a minute because I know that my 6 year old
can't. To him, what he has to say is important, and I listen.
Another example is : I take them where they need to go, I can drive, they
can't. And I don't make judgments on where they need to go. To them the
park is just as important as the grocery store. We make lots of compromises.
I think it comes down to respect and trust.
If my boys forget to say please it isn't because they are trying to be mean.
They are doing the best they can. I try my best to be a good role model for
them.
Anyway not sure I was any help at all. If you could elaborate about what you
consider bad manners, like the conversation situation it might help.
Pam G.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/17/03 4:10:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
shera70@... writes:
unschool your child.
Pam G.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
shera70@... writes:
> , I do think it is possible to unschool your child while not being a NCP.I believe that you have to be a non-coercive parent regarding learning to
>
>
>
unschool your child.
Pam G.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/17/03 4:56:01 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
realize that it had specifics to it.
Pam G.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
> "Non-coerciveOops, sorry. I was taking Non-coercive parenting to mean just that. Didn't
> parenting" is a practically-trademarked term for a group called Taking
> Children Seriously.
realize that it had specifics to it.
Pam G.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robyn Coburn
I have deleted the original story and question so I can't quote it, but
I do remember thinking as I read the story about the tenacious
questioning boy, "What a cool sounding kid. I'd love to meet him. Most
people love to talk about themselves so I bet he gets some great
conversations from asking lots of questions." I was looking forward to
reading some of the solutions, I guess expecting more that were like the
"he'll make a great reporter" response in tone. I think the discussion
moved onto a different issue - of boundaries and interrupting - when I
understood the original problem was the lad's immense persistence in his
follow through with his questions. Perhaps I am wrong about what the
Mom's problem was. My only thought, btw, is to warn your visitors that
once he gets started, he really loves to ask questions and understand
the answers, so it doesn't come from left field.
Robyn Coburn
I do remember thinking as I read the story about the tenacious
questioning boy, "What a cool sounding kid. I'd love to meet him. Most
people love to talk about themselves so I bet he gets some great
conversations from asking lots of questions." I was looking forward to
reading some of the solutions, I guess expecting more that were like the
"he'll make a great reporter" response in tone. I think the discussion
moved onto a different issue - of boundaries and interrupting - when I
understood the original problem was the lad's immense persistence in his
follow through with his questions. Perhaps I am wrong about what the
Mom's problem was. My only thought, btw, is to warn your visitors that
once he gets started, he really loves to ask questions and understand
the answers, so it doesn't come from left field.
Robyn Coburn
> One was the example of the kid interrupting the parent's conversationwith a
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> friend. I saw that as the kid being rude, but others came up with
> solutions
> to still include the kid.
Heidi
My oldest boy, now 23, has always asked a lot of questions and made a
lot of comments. He knows how to draw out people and get them talking
about themselves, but he does tend to say whatever pops into his head
without thinking about it...somewhat. He's gotten better at that.
Total salesman personality, a good bs'er, good looking, friendly,
funny. And he has nothing wrong with him. Just active and outgoing,
interested in people.
as for interrupting, this is a practice we adopted years ago. If two
people are conversing, and another person (who isn't already in the
conversation) wants to talk, the other person waits politely.
Sometimes the other person is a little kid and doesn't get noticed,
so we have asked them to put a hand on our arm or shoulder while they
wait. This signals that the kid wants to say something, but the
conversation can continue until a normal lull, whereupon the kid gets
the attention. It has worked for us. Impresses the grammas and great
aunts, as well! :)
HeidiC
--- In [email protected], "Robyn Coburn"
<dezigna@a...> wrote:
lot of comments. He knows how to draw out people and get them talking
about themselves, but he does tend to say whatever pops into his head
without thinking about it...somewhat. He's gotten better at that.
Total salesman personality, a good bs'er, good looking, friendly,
funny. And he has nothing wrong with him. Just active and outgoing,
interested in people.
as for interrupting, this is a practice we adopted years ago. If two
people are conversing, and another person (who isn't already in the
conversation) wants to talk, the other person waits politely.
Sometimes the other person is a little kid and doesn't get noticed,
so we have asked them to put a hand on our arm or shoulder while they
wait. This signals that the kid wants to say something, but the
conversation can continue until a normal lull, whereupon the kid gets
the attention. It has worked for us. Impresses the grammas and great
aunts, as well! :)
HeidiC
--- In [email protected], "Robyn Coburn"
<dezigna@a...> wrote:
> I have deleted the original story and question so I can't quote it,but
> I do remember thinking as I read the story about the tenaciousMost
> questioning boy, "What a cool sounding kid. I'd love to meet him.
> people love to talk about themselves so I bet he gets some greatto
> conversations from asking lots of questions." I was looking forward
> reading some of the solutions, I guess expecting more that werelike the
> "he'll make a great reporter" response in tone. I think thediscussion
> moved onto a different issue - of boundaries and interrupting -when I
> understood the original problem was the lad's immense persistencein his
> follow through with his questions. Perhaps I am wrong about what thethat
> Mom's problem was. My only thought, btw, is to warn your visitors
> once he gets started, he really loves to ask questions andunderstand
> the answers, so it doesn't come from left field.conversation
>
> Robyn Coburn
>
>
>
>
>
> > One was the example of the kid interrupting the parent's
> with awith
> >
> > friend. I saw that as the kid being rude, but others came up
> > solutions
> > to still include the kid.
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Rob Wight
Hi Robyn,
Thanks for that. You've understood my problem - his immense persistence! I
want to teach him to respect other people's needs without crushing his need
for information and desire to take part in the conversation. I need to talk
to other people besides my son. I enjoy his company and we have fantastic
talks about the world, the universe, why we are here etc. - stuff neither of
us has anyone else to talk to about. But I also need to talk to other
people - including my husband and other children! Most of the time I am
happy to include James in these talks on an equal basis but sometimes his
involvement is far more than an equal basis - he takes over the conversation
by asking so many questions (eg. asking me to explain what we are talking
about) and being so insistent on getting answers to the point where the
conversation founders. There are other times when I want or need to have
private conversations. James feels very left out and hurt then. Now and then
I arrange to go out with a friend at night but my husband is away quite
often and in between other commitments, I can only manage to do this once or
twice a month. I do feel there are getting to be more occasions when James
takes part in the conversation without the situation becoming stressful.
Maybe I just need to keep doing what I am doing and wait. Before he came out
of school two and a half years ago, he was very withdrawn and used to hide
in his bedroom if anyone came to the house. Once he was out of school he
just wouldn't allow me to talk to anyone. When I look back, I can see how
far we have come but on a daily basis, the progress seems so slow.
Message: 8
overall problem which is much bigger than that but might help when I am on
the phone for example.
Thanks for that. You've understood my problem - his immense persistence! I
want to teach him to respect other people's needs without crushing his need
for information and desire to take part in the conversation. I need to talk
to other people besides my son. I enjoy his company and we have fantastic
talks about the world, the universe, why we are here etc. - stuff neither of
us has anyone else to talk to about. But I also need to talk to other
people - including my husband and other children! Most of the time I am
happy to include James in these talks on an equal basis but sometimes his
involvement is far more than an equal basis - he takes over the conversation
by asking so many questions (eg. asking me to explain what we are talking
about) and being so insistent on getting answers to the point where the
conversation founders. There are other times when I want or need to have
private conversations. James feels very left out and hurt then. Now and then
I arrange to go out with a friend at night but my husband is away quite
often and in between other commitments, I can only manage to do this once or
twice a month. I do feel there are getting to be more occasions when James
takes part in the conversation without the situation becoming stressful.
Maybe I just need to keep doing what I am doing and wait. Before he came out
of school two and a half years ago, he was very withdrawn and used to hide
in his bedroom if anyone came to the house. Once he was out of school he
just wouldn't allow me to talk to anyone. When I look back, I can see how
far we have come but on a daily basis, the progress seems so slow.
Message: 8
> Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 23:08:00 -0700Thanks HeidiC - Think this might be helpful sometimes. It won't solve the
> From: "Robyn Coburn" <dezigna@...>
> Subject: The loquacious questioner
>
> I have deleted the original story and question so I can't quote it, but
> I do remember thinking as I read the story about the tenacious
> questioning boy, "What a cool sounding kid. I'd love to meet him. Most
> people love to talk about themselves so I bet he gets some great
> conversations from asking lots of questions." I was looking forward to
> reading some of the solutions, I guess expecting more that were like the
> "he'll make a great reporter" response in tone. I think the discussion
> moved onto a different issue - of boundaries and interrupting - when I
> understood the original problem was the lad's immense persistence in his
> follow through with his questions. Perhaps I am wrong about what the
> Mom's problem was. My only thought, btw, is to warn your visitors that
> once he gets started, he really loves to ask questions and understand
> the answers, so it doesn't come from left field.
>
> Robyn Coburn
>
overall problem which is much bigger than that but might help when I am on
the phone for example.
> Message: 18
> Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 12:27:33 -0000
> From: "Heidi" <bunsofaluminum60@...>
> Subject: Re: The loquacious questioner
>
> My oldest boy, now 23, has always asked a lot of questions and made a
> lot of comments. He knows how to draw out people and get them talking
> about themselves, but he does tend to say whatever pops into his head
> without thinking about it...somewhat. He's gotten better at that.
> Total salesman personality, a good bs'er, good looking, friendly,
> funny. And he has nothing wrong with him. Just active and outgoing,
> interested in people.
>
> as for interrupting, this is a practice we adopted years ago. If two
> people are conversing, and another person (who isn't already in the
> conversation) wants to talk, the other person waits politely.
> Sometimes the other person is a little kid and doesn't get noticed,
> so we have asked them to put a hand on our arm or shoulder while they
> wait. This signals that the kid wants to say something, but the
> conversation can continue until a normal lull, whereupon the kid gets
> the attention. It has worked for us. Impresses the grammas and great
> aunts, as well! :)
>
> HeidiC
Robyn Coburn
<<I do feel there are getting to be more occasions when James
takes part in the conversation without the situation becoming stressful.
Maybe I just need to keep doing what I am doing and wait. Before he came
out
of school two and a half years ago, he was very withdrawn and used to
hide
in his bedroom if anyone came to the house. Once he was out of school he
just wouldn't allow me to talk to anyone. When I look back, I can see
how
far we have come but on a daily basis, the progress seems so slow.>>
Sounds like things improved while you weren't looking! Perhaps school
interfered with his normal development in the area of attachment/pulling
away and he is having to "catch up" to himself for time lost. It must
seem like a pendulum swing in the opposite direction from withdrawn.
Some people/writers have suggested talking to the child before the
challenging situation, explaining to him what would be the desired
behavior and the feelings that might be expected to come up. I guess in
this case prior to having a visitor. This doesn't help much when the
interrupted conversation is an unplanned phone call or extemporaneous
talk with your dh. I can just imagine it, with ds asking why and how and
the whole history of why you want to talk to him about how he talks when
you are trying to talk! (LOL)
I bet his leftover school pain and self-protective behaviors will
continue to recede as he gains more confidence.
<<I want to teach him to respect other people's needs without crushing
his need for information and desire to take part in the conversation.>>
People here have found that by respecting the child, the child just
becomes respectful, without being "taught". Jayn is so courteous to me
and others without ever being "told" to be. To be honest, my dh
occasionally is a stickler for "please", but I try to discourage that as
I don't see his asking her to say "please" having any effect whatsoever
on her choosing to or remembering to say it. She is terrific with
"Thanks" and "Excuse me", and always says please when asking a cashier
for something.
<<I need to talk to other people besides my son.>>
Of course you do. Isn't the lack of adult conversation a standing "joke"
directed at all parents. Remember the tv commercial when the husband
just had to take his wife to a Shakespeare play. For situations where it
is a private conversation, or the wrong time, some author I read (my
fuzzy memory of which it is - I'm sorry I can't cite the source better)
recommended something along the lines of honoring the feeling, without
getting involved in answering the endless round of questions if you are
not up for it. It's along the lines of saying "gee, you really want my
attention just now. It must be frustrating to have to wait till later"
and then stopping. I'm not sure how honest this is; it seems just
manipulative in this instance (I'm all for honoring feelings when it is
without ulterior motives). Any thoughts on that anyone?
Robyn Coburn
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
takes part in the conversation without the situation becoming stressful.
Maybe I just need to keep doing what I am doing and wait. Before he came
out
of school two and a half years ago, he was very withdrawn and used to
hide
in his bedroom if anyone came to the house. Once he was out of school he
just wouldn't allow me to talk to anyone. When I look back, I can see
how
far we have come but on a daily basis, the progress seems so slow.>>
Sounds like things improved while you weren't looking! Perhaps school
interfered with his normal development in the area of attachment/pulling
away and he is having to "catch up" to himself for time lost. It must
seem like a pendulum swing in the opposite direction from withdrawn.
Some people/writers have suggested talking to the child before the
challenging situation, explaining to him what would be the desired
behavior and the feelings that might be expected to come up. I guess in
this case prior to having a visitor. This doesn't help much when the
interrupted conversation is an unplanned phone call or extemporaneous
talk with your dh. I can just imagine it, with ds asking why and how and
the whole history of why you want to talk to him about how he talks when
you are trying to talk! (LOL)
I bet his leftover school pain and self-protective behaviors will
continue to recede as he gains more confidence.
<<I want to teach him to respect other people's needs without crushing
his need for information and desire to take part in the conversation.>>
People here have found that by respecting the child, the child just
becomes respectful, without being "taught". Jayn is so courteous to me
and others without ever being "told" to be. To be honest, my dh
occasionally is a stickler for "please", but I try to discourage that as
I don't see his asking her to say "please" having any effect whatsoever
on her choosing to or remembering to say it. She is terrific with
"Thanks" and "Excuse me", and always says please when asking a cashier
for something.
<<I need to talk to other people besides my son.>>
Of course you do. Isn't the lack of adult conversation a standing "joke"
directed at all parents. Remember the tv commercial when the husband
just had to take his wife to a Shakespeare play. For situations where it
is a private conversation, or the wrong time, some author I read (my
fuzzy memory of which it is - I'm sorry I can't cite the source better)
recommended something along the lines of honoring the feeling, without
getting involved in answering the endless round of questions if you are
not up for it. It's along the lines of saying "gee, you really want my
attention just now. It must be frustrating to have to wait till later"
and then stopping. I'm not sure how honest this is; it seems just
manipulative in this instance (I'm all for honoring feelings when it is
without ulterior motives). Any thoughts on that anyone?
Robyn Coburn
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]