[email protected]

<< I have tried the no set bedtime >>

I'm climbing onto the biggest rock I can see here and trying to make a
speech, but I can't whistle loud, and nobody has to listen to me.

I think (I could be wrong) that the recent idea that unschooling requires
"the no set bedtime" came from some things I've written over the years. If
so I'd like to clarify some things. If not, where did it come from?

Our lack of bedtimes came before our homeschooling.
Our trust that people DO need to eat good food and DO need to sleep and DO
need to be with their parents came from earlier times of La Leche League and
reading Mothering Magazine, and observing our kids with the idea that they
come into the world with instinctive knowledge which can continue to work if
people don't snuff it. (The example of the dad telling his daughter "You're
not thirsty" is a frightening and good example. My mom used to tell me
"You're not hungry," lots of times. I have never even told my kids "You
shouldn't be hungry." Hungry is hungry, one way or another.)

Unschooling isn't about bedtimes.
Unschooling isn't about chores.
Unschooling isn't about TV.

But a parent who insists on arbitrary (IMPORTANT term in this, "arbitrary")
rules is lacking a crucial component of the understanding it takes to be a
really good unschooling parent, and a family in which children are told what
is good, and what they like, and what is stupid, and what will make or break
their future families/jobs/homes is NOT in a good unschooling environment.

What do I mean by "good"? Sustainable, emotionally. Sound, interpersonally.
Honest. Open.

Whether a child is awake or asleep can matter for learning, but sleep is
important!
Whether a child goes to sleep happy to be in the bed is FAR more important in
the overall averaging scheme of things than what time it is that he goes to
sleep happy.

If happiness is a goal, unschooling can follow.

If unschooling is a goal and unhappy measures are taken to try to ensure that
unschooling can thrive, and families are fighting about the unhappy changes,
that is NOT a path to unschooling. It's a sideroad with a huge row of rubbly
boulders between it and the peaceful unschooling place a family needs to be.

Several people have said "Since I announced 'no more bedtime,'..." and then
told us of various weird reactions.

The suggestions I was making were never "Let them stay awake forever," but
"Ask yourself WHY you are saying 8:00 is 'bedtime.' Ask yourself WHY bedtime
might be so crucial."

And so it seems some people have not really thought about it, and have made a
new arbitrary rule (based on things they kind of understood, maybe, from
here). And anytime a person comes back in here and says "Okay, I bought $40
worth of junk food and they're eating it. Now what?" they have made a step
without understanding where they were going with it.

Is it the fault of the information providers? Did we "fail to teach"?
Is it the fault of the learners? They want a magic quickie curriculum to
learn to become an unschooling family?

The principles behind giving people choices are what makes those choices
work.
The options without understanding, the freedoms without the underpinnings of
purpose and belief, are just more weird rules.

Sandra

[email protected]

I think in our case we had a child who was told he had a bed time and
attended "school" and had all the rules that we now in this day do not feel
was in his best interest.

The problem is when Sally meets Harry, one changes and the other is slower to
take on the same belief it will and does cause time for discussion. We get
bits and pieces of life from other people. When we make some of those choices
some follow and others make it a power struggle but miss the positive changes
that are happening.

If Harry comes home late he gets bits and pieces but not the full movie. All
families come from different places in their lives. Stress adds to these and
make the change over slower and often leads to the one step forward two steps
back spiral.

In our case I dont think what time our son went to bed was so much the issue
with DH it was more that when our son stayed up later he often left the tv on
all night. Money issues again........ My husband has asked repeatedly for
our son to please turn off his light and tv before he sleeps but it never
happened. The struggle between father and son is why I finally announced that
we are Unschooling even though we had been doing this all along.

I came to the conclusion that my DH needed examples of the positive impact of
Unschooling. That he (and I gave examples) often falls into the have to do's.

So I asked why does this need to be done now, because your parents made =you
do that? It is ok to shake the bad stuff and be happy you know.

So what I am saying is that we are two adults making major changes to our
lives and beliefs. We did not meet and instantly Unschool. We are late
bloomers.
I feel strongly about Unschooling because I know it has changed us all for
the better. Our relationship as a couple and a family. We are all closer.

But I also know that there may be things that pop up along the way that we
need to deal with, to me they are all part of our growth.

Laura D


In a message dated 5/14/2003 1:06:45 PM Eastern Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:

> <<I have tried the no set bedtime >>
>
> I'm climbing onto the biggest rock I can see here and trying to make a
> speech, but I can't whistle loud, and nobody has to listen to me.
>
> I think (I could be wrong) that the recent idea that unschooling requires
> "the no set bedtime" came from some things I've written over the years.
> If
> so I'd like to clarify some things. If not, where did it come from?
>
> Our lack of bedtimes came before our homeschooling.
> Our trust that people DO need to eat good food and DO need to sleep and DO
> need to be with their parents came from earlier times of La Leche League
> and
> reading Mothering Magazine, and observing our kids with the idea that they
> come into the world with instinctive knowledge which can continue to work
> if
> people don't snuff it. (The example of the dad telling his daughter
> "You're
> not thirsty" is a frightening and good example. My mom used to tell me
> "You're not hungry," lots of times. I have never even told my kids "You
> shouldn't be hungry." Hungry is hungry, one way or another.)
>
> Unschooling isn't about bedtimes.
> Unschooling isn't about chores.
> Unschooling isn't about TV.
>
> But a parent who insists on arbitrary (IMPORTANT term in this, "arbitrary")
>
> rules is lacking a crucial component of the understanding it takes to be a
> really good unschooling parent, and a family in which children are told
> what
> is good, and what they like, and what is stupid, and what will make or
> break
> their future families/jobs/homes is NOT in a good unschooling environment.
>
> What do I mean by "good"? Sustainable, emotionally. Sound,
> interpersonally.
> Honest. Open.
>
> Whether a child is awake or asleep can matter for learning, but sleep is
> important!
> Whether a child goes to sleep happy to be in the bed is FAR more important
> in
> the overall averaging scheme of things than what time it is that he goes to
>
> sleep happy.
>
> If happiness is a goal, unschooling can follow.
>
> If unschooling is a goal and unhappy measures are taken to try to ensure
> that
> unschooling can thrive, and families are fighting about the unhappy
> changes,
> that is NOT a path to unschooling. It's a sideroad with a huge row of
> rubbly
> boulders between it and the peaceful unschooling place a family needs to
> be.
>
> Several people have said "Since I announced 'no more bedtime,'..." and then
>
> told us of various weird reactions.
>
> The suggestions I was making were never "Let them stay awake forever," but
> "Ask yourself WHY you are saying 8:00 is 'bedtime.' Ask yourself WHY
> bedtime
> might be so crucial."
>
> And so it seems some people have not really thought about it, and have made
> a
> new arbitrary rule (based on things they kind of understood, maybe, from
> here). And anytime a person comes back in here and says "Okay, I bought
> $40
> worth of junk food and they're eating it. Now what?" they have made a
> step
> without understanding where they were going with it.
>
> Is it the fault of the information providers? Did we "fail to teach"?
> Is it the fault of the learners? They want a magic quickie curriculum to
> learn to become an unschooling family?
>
> The principles behind giving people choices are what makes those choices
> work.
> The options without understanding, the freedoms without the underpinnings
> of
> purpose and belief, are just more weird rules.
>
> Sandra
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Heidi

Let me see if I've got it, then. No set bedtime means, they do what
they're doing until they're finished doing it, and if something else
cool comes along that they need or want to do right then, they do
that. When they're done, and if nothing else cool comes up, they go
to bed because they're tired.

when they're real little, and the grown-ups know that the crankiness
or the hyper-activity is due to being sleepy...then the grown-ups can
read to them, hold them, snuggle, tuck in, say bedtime prayers with
them, etc. providing a calm environment so they can go to bed happy.

is that close?

HeidiC


--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
>
>
> << I have tried the no set bedtime >>
>
> I'm climbing onto the biggest rock I can see here and trying to
make a
> speech, but I can't whistle loud, and nobody has to listen to me.
>
> I think (I could be wrong) that the recent idea that unschooling
requires
> "the no set bedtime" came from some things I've written over the
years. If
> so I'd like to clarify some things. If not, where did it come from?
>
> Our lack of bedtimes came before our homeschooling.
> Our trust that people DO need to eat good food and DO need to sleep
and DO
> need to be with their parents came from earlier times of La Leche
League and
> reading Mothering Magazine, and observing our kids with the idea
that they
> come into the world with instinctive knowledge which can continue
to work if
> people don't snuff it. (

becqui

Patti,

Our routine is almost identical to yours but goes on between 11pm and 2 am.
I am usually the first up in the morning and use that as my time until the
kids start getting up around 10 am. I will usually ask the older kids to go
to bed earlier then normal if we have plans the next day, otherwise all the
kids make the call themselves.

Becqui


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

averyschmidt

> when they're real little, and the grown-ups know that the
crankiness
> or the hyper-activity is due to being sleepy...then the grown-ups
can
> read to them, hold them, snuggle, tuck in, say bedtime prayers
with
> them, etc. providing a calm environment so they can go to bed
happy.

I'll pipe in here with what "bedtime" looks like in our home.
My kids are 10, 8, and 4, and my husband works nights. I've learned
from experience that the "let them drop where they are" approach
doesn't work for my kids, particularly when they're little. But
then neither do inflexible bedtimes.

Here's my latest "routine. " When my youngest is getting sleepy I
start a subtle segue (sp?) into bedtime-related stuff. A warm bath,
a snack (usually while in the tub), and picture book selecting. I
usually ask my older two to watch a movie or something else quiet at
this point. My 4yo and I then brush teeth and get in bed to read a
stack of books with a soft light. I pick some of the books, and he
picks some- and the ones I pick are soothing, sleepy type books and
I read in a quiet voice. Then I turn out the light and rub his back
and talk in a soothing way about the things we did that day and the
things we'll do the next day. This is a cozy time for us, and he
falls asleep happily and quickly.
With the older two I then make Nighty Nite tea for us all and we
read from our latest novel. I tell them ahead of time when I'll be
ready so they can finish or pause what they're doing. Usually after
this reading session my middle son is happy to be tucked into his
bed, sometimes with his gameboy but usually with the lights out and
a quick backrub. He's always been my early bird.
My oldest (night owl since birth) then retreats to his room where
he's free to do whatever he wants as long as it's reasonably quiet.
Usually he reads Calvin and Hobbes, plays gameboy or if he's really
tired listens to an audiobook with the lights out in bed until he
falls asleep. If he doesn't want to sleep by himself he drags his
blanket and pillow into my room and reads a book alongside me until
he falls asleep.
So I *do* have a bedtime routine that we're all happy with, and the
kids don't mind it because they know it isn't arbitrary, nor carved
in stone, and they know that if they're not ready for sleep they are
free to do something else quiet until they are. This all occurs
between 8 and 10 usually, which gives me some much needed peace and
quiet since if anyone's still up after that time it's my mostly self-
sufficient oldest.

Works for us. :-)

Patti

Rebecca DeLong

averyschmidt <patti.schmidt2@...> wrote:

<<<I'll pipe in here with what "bedtime" looks like in our home.>>>


For s&g's I decided to pipe in too :-)

My kids are 4.5 and 22months. When I notice that Avery is getting ready for bed and wants to nurce, this is how he falls asleep, we ask Jaiden if he'll go play quietly in his room until Avery's asleep. Sometimes Jaiden askes Jason to come in and play or read to him. Sometimes he just goes to sleep, or reads and plays by himself. Once Avery is asleep, Jaiden can get up if he wants, we all try to be quite so Avery can sleep. If Jaiden gets up we watch movies, or read, or play games...all the stuff thats hard to do with a toddler running around.

Rebecca


*~*Leave the crowd, look within, and let your dreams soar*~*

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

averyschmidt

> Our routine is almost identical to yours but goes on between 11pm
and 2 am.
> I am usually the first up in the morning and use that as my time
until the
> kids start getting up around 10 am. I will usually ask the older
kids to go
> to bed earlier then normal if we have plans the next day,
otherwise all the
> kids make the call themselves.

My oldest sleeps in if he's up late, but my other two don't seem
capable of it. They seem to wake up early no matter what time they
go to bed!
They *could* stay awake all night if they wanted to after our little
routine, but they don't choose to... I think it's because the
stillness, snuggling and reading gets them into a cozy, sleepy mood.
Patti

Robin Clevenger

From: "Heidi" <bunsofaluminum60@...>
>Let me see if I've got it, then. No set bedtime means, they do what
>they're doing until they're finished doing it, and if something else
>cool comes along that they need or want to do right then, they do
>that. When they're done, and if nothing else cool comes up, they go
>to bed because they're tired.
>
>when they're real little, and the grown-ups know that the crankiness
>or the hyper-activity is due to being sleepy...then the grown-ups can
>read to them, hold them, snuggle, tuck in, say bedtime prayers with
>them, etc. providing a calm environment so they can go to bed happy.
>
>is that close?

That's close to how it works around here. Except that I'd say that by
responding to their cues since they were infants with no enforced bedtimes,
they have a very good idea of when they are tired. It's not like my son
plays around until he drops of exhaustion. Usually at some point, he'll say
"I'm tired, I want to go to bed now." He knows his own body's cues and
responds to them. Boy that really throws some adults for a loop to hear a
kid say that too! And he really is tired when he says he is. He's asleep
within minutes of hitting the pillow. No fiddling around asking for glasses
of water and more stories because he can do all that ahead of time until
he's tired. There's nothing to postpone, sleep is welcomed.

When the kids were infants and young toddlers, they usually fell asleep
nursing. Sometimes asked for a story first. My daughter still nurses to
sleep. That makes bedtimes with infants/toddlers pretty much a snap, and
bedtime is something that they always associate with a pleasant, close time.

Blue Skies!
-Robin-

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/14/03 9:07:12 PM, diamondair@... writes:

<< That's close to how it works around here. Except that I'd say that by

responding to their cues since they were infants with no enforced bedtimes,

they have a very good idea of when they are tired. It's not like my son

plays around until he drops of exhaustion. Usually at some point, he'll say

"I'm tired, I want to go to bed now." He knows his own body's cues and

responds to them. Boy that really throws some adults for a loop to hear a

kid say that too! And he really is tired when he says he is. He's asleep

within minutes of hitting the pillow. No fiddling around asking for glasses

of water and more stories because he can do all that ahead of time until

he's tired. There's nothing to postpone, sleep is welcomed. >>

Exactly the same here.

They haven't had to learn to read themselves to sleep because someone said
"bedtime." They haven't had to learn ANY tricks for inducing sleep when
they're not sleepy. They do real things until they're sleepy, and then they
happily get into bed and happily go to sleep.

But on the other hand, when they were little it wasn't that way exactly.
They nursed to sleep, or were read to sleep, or listened to music with mom in
a dark room while a younger baby nursed to sleep, or lay next to mom playing
with something or looking at a book, but they were never stuck in a room
alone and told to go to sleep.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/14/03 7:40:58 PM, patti.schmidt2@... writes:

<< With the older two I then make Nighty Nite tea for us all and we

read from our latest novel. I tell them ahead of time when I'll be

ready so they can finish or pause what they're doing. Usually after

this reading session my middle son is happy to be tucked into his

bed >>

I would be too. I wouldn't mind being a kid at the home of some of the moms
here!


Sandra

Robin Clevenger

<< I have tried the no set bedtime >>

To Sandra's excellent post on this, I'd just add that whether or not
dispensing with bedtimes "works" depends a lot on giving the kids enough
time to really understand what it means to feel sleepy. If for your entire
life, you are told when to go to bed, then you probably don't really know
what it feels like to be playing or working on something and feel sleepy and
recognize that it's time to go to bed now before you get *really* tired. I
think most people go through this learning process in college--staying up
very late, getting up and feeling too tired to function in class, etc. It
might take them years by that point to realize what time *they* need to go
to sleep in order for their bodies to feel good and rested. But even with
kids, it might take weeks or months of the kids going a bit crazy one way or
another for them to discover their own personal sleepy point.

So it's a very different thing for a child who has always been able to
determine their own bedtime and can therefore read their own body's sleep
cues. Whenever people come and post "I've tried not having a bedtime", the
first thing I wonder is "for how long?" If you haven't given it the weeks or
months it might take, and go back to enforced bedtimes again, the kids might
just have to go through it when they are old enough to move out on their
own. That can even be dangerous. We've all probably seen the studies about
sleep deprivation and auto accidents, etc.

Personally, I've just won a lifelong battle with insomnia. After 37 years,
I've *finally* gotten to the point where I can lay my body down when it
feels tired and drop off to sleep. My mom tells the (to her) "humorous"
story of how I used to scream so loud in my crib that my parents had to
sleep in the dining room (of a one-bedroom apartment). I know she was
probably following Dr. Spock and doing what she felt was best for me, but
there have been many, many sleepless midnights when I wondered if I could've
learned what tired and sleepy felt as a child, maybe I wouldn't be still
reading a book trying to get myself to sleep in the middle of the night.

Blue Skies!
-Robin-

unolist

--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
Exactly the same here.
>
> They haven't had to learn to read themselves to sleep because
someone said
> "bedtime." They haven't had to learn ANY tricks for inducing sleep
when
> they're not sleepy. They do real things until they're sleepy, and
then they
> happily get into bed and happily go to sleep.
>
> But on the other hand, when they were little it wasn't that way
exactly.
> They nursed to sleep, or were read to sleep, or listened to music
with mom in
> a dark room while a younger baby nursed to sleep, or lay next to
mom playing
> with something or looking at a book, but they were never stuck in a
room
> alone and told to go to sleep.
>
> Sandra


That's what we do here, also. My youngest(almost 2) is learning how
to fall asleep without nursing. We have been cosleeping since my
second (almost 4) daughter was born. I regret forcing my oldest 10yo
daughter to sleep in her crib alone crying. So now most of the time
she sleeps in my room too. At this age, she still doesn't want to be
alone in her room. And it is okay, since everyone else(except dh God
love him) sleeps in my room. One of these days I will have my bed and
my body back to myself, and maybe I'll let dh come back LOL

Occasionally there are times when they start letting me know they
want to go to bed before I am ready, but most nights we just all
migrate to the dark quiet bedroom together, and one by one we nod
off. Last night the one who is learning not to nurse to sleep took a
long time, kicking and thrashing, and getting up and moving around,
and playing and talking to me, while I was in a half coma. Rough
night LOL

Ang

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/14/03 11:07:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
diamondair@... writes:

> He knows his own body's cues and
> responds to them. Boy that really throws some adults for a loop to hear a
> kid say that too! And he really is tired when he says he is. He's asleep
> within minutes of hitting the pillow. No fiddling around asking for glasses
> of water and more stories because he can do all that ahead of time until
> he's tired. There's nothing to postpone, sleep is welcomed.
>
> When the kids were infants and young toddlers, they usually fell asleep
> nursing. Sometimes asked for a story first. My daughter still nurses to
> sleep. That makes bedtimes with infants/toddlers pretty much a snap, and
> bedtime is something that they always associate with a pleasant, close time

That is how it is for us too. But if my oldest (8yo) isn't quite ready for
bed when we are and doesn't want to be up alone in the house, he has a light
and cozy chair at the foot of the bed and he will sit and read or draw until
he is ready. Then turns off the light and comes to bed.
Pam G.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/15/03 9:01:39 AM, diamondair@... writes:

<< So it's a very different thing for a child who has always been able to

determine their own bedtime and can therefore read their own body's sleep

cues. Whenever people come and post "I've tried not having a bedtime", the

first thing I wonder is "for how long?" If you haven't given it the weeks or

months it might take >>

Same with food choices,
same with television,
same with even just doing interesting things on their own if they've been in
school.

It takes a while for them to get past the "Oooh! I can eat cake! I can
watch cartoons!"

I'm really, really happy that our kids had the latitude to eat when they were
hungry and sleep with they were tired from before they could remember,
because it makes their other decision making all easier too.

Just as their learning to read on their own makes it a cinch for them to
calmly KNOW they can learn fancy math when they need to, or how to lay out a
business letter, or whatever it might be, having had decision making power
over when to sleep and when to eat makes it easier for them to be confident
in their judgment on other things, like who to be romantic with, who to trust
to drive them around, or whatever.

Because they're not desperate, their decision making is not reactionary.

Sandra