bad mommy moment
Kelly Lenhart
I am so frustrated and very unhappy with how I just responded to my son.
I told him that there was a local homeschooling for little kids. That the
kids would be from his bother's age (2) up to his age (7) and it would be at
a playground.
His response? "I'm not going." Uhm, you are 7 and can't stay home by
yourself. I'd love to leave him home whenever it's something he doesn't
want to do, but hey, he's only 7. Can't do it.
So, I lost it. This is the latest in a long line of "I'm not going" or "No,
you can't." responses from him. Lately it seems like I'm spending a lot of
time making things that have to be done fun for him. Like, we have to go to
the bank. I can't leave him home so....And money is tight, this is
something that CAN'T be put off. But I have to schedule a whole day's
activities, some costing money, just to get him out the door without a
fight. I totally blew up at him. Told him I was sick of him making
decisions for everyone. Sick for example of having to wait around until he
wakes up at noon and missing things that his brother would enjoy. Sick of
bending over backwards when I shouldn't have to.
'Course, then the really bad thing--said I was thinking of sending him to
school next year 'cause I was tired of dealing with his negative attitude.
Uhm, can I rewind that part? Please?
Now, I don't mind making necessary things--like the bank, and the grocery
store, etc--fun. But up until Friday we didn't have a car and it was a BIG
DEAL to get this stuff done. Just the way it was. Now we have a car and
I'll have more flexibility. The stuff that used to be a big deal can be
handled around all the other stuff and be just a blip.
But I just don't know what to do or say. Hey, we are a family. Sometimes
we have to go do things we would rather not so that others can do it. It'll
get better when he's older and CAN stay home, but not now. Should we all
have to sit around and watch him watch cartoons? If we ARE home and there
isn't something that someone else wants to do, fine. But if there is?
I either need some magic words to explain to him that we all need a turn or
some magic words to make it ok with me to never get to have one or give one
to his brother. (And yes, I realize that at 2 his brother doesn't "want to
go" to the playgroup. IT's my idea and schedule. But his brother WOULD
enjoy it and why shouldn't we go?)
Kelly
frustrated and annoyed with me and him
I told him that there was a local homeschooling for little kids. That the
kids would be from his bother's age (2) up to his age (7) and it would be at
a playground.
His response? "I'm not going." Uhm, you are 7 and can't stay home by
yourself. I'd love to leave him home whenever it's something he doesn't
want to do, but hey, he's only 7. Can't do it.
So, I lost it. This is the latest in a long line of "I'm not going" or "No,
you can't." responses from him. Lately it seems like I'm spending a lot of
time making things that have to be done fun for him. Like, we have to go to
the bank. I can't leave him home so....And money is tight, this is
something that CAN'T be put off. But I have to schedule a whole day's
activities, some costing money, just to get him out the door without a
fight. I totally blew up at him. Told him I was sick of him making
decisions for everyone. Sick for example of having to wait around until he
wakes up at noon and missing things that his brother would enjoy. Sick of
bending over backwards when I shouldn't have to.
'Course, then the really bad thing--said I was thinking of sending him to
school next year 'cause I was tired of dealing with his negative attitude.
Uhm, can I rewind that part? Please?
Now, I don't mind making necessary things--like the bank, and the grocery
store, etc--fun. But up until Friday we didn't have a car and it was a BIG
DEAL to get this stuff done. Just the way it was. Now we have a car and
I'll have more flexibility. The stuff that used to be a big deal can be
handled around all the other stuff and be just a blip.
But I just don't know what to do or say. Hey, we are a family. Sometimes
we have to go do things we would rather not so that others can do it. It'll
get better when he's older and CAN stay home, but not now. Should we all
have to sit around and watch him watch cartoons? If we ARE home and there
isn't something that someone else wants to do, fine. But if there is?
I either need some magic words to explain to him that we all need a turn or
some magic words to make it ok with me to never get to have one or give one
to his brother. (And yes, I realize that at 2 his brother doesn't "want to
go" to the playgroup. IT's my idea and schedule. But his brother WOULD
enjoy it and why shouldn't we go?)
Kelly
frustrated and annoyed with me and him
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/12/03 5:17:23 PM, mina@... writes:
<< (And yes, I realize that at 2 his brother doesn't "want to
go" to the playgroup. IT's my idea and schedule. But his brother WOULD
enjoy it and why shouldn't we go?) >>
My first thought was it wasn't a way to make him have higher regard for his
brother, using the baby as an excuse for making him go somewhere.
But I do understand. I see your point and his too.
Sometimes when Holly or Marty has been hesitant to go to something like a
play session, I drive by and park and let them watch a while. And either
they'll say "Let's go over for a while," or "I don't want to." Sometimes
we've gone to do one errand (get cash, something from the grocery store) and
then back by and sometimes someone they like is there or whatever.
Maybe you could arrange to take someone else with you to insure there's a kid
he likes, and if the two of them meet other kids great, and if not, they
still play.
Sandra
<< (And yes, I realize that at 2 his brother doesn't "want to
go" to the playgroup. IT's my idea and schedule. But his brother WOULD
enjoy it and why shouldn't we go?) >>
My first thought was it wasn't a way to make him have higher regard for his
brother, using the baby as an excuse for making him go somewhere.
But I do understand. I see your point and his too.
Sometimes when Holly or Marty has been hesitant to go to something like a
play session, I drive by and park and let them watch a while. And either
they'll say "Let's go over for a while," or "I don't want to." Sometimes
we've gone to do one errand (get cash, something from the grocery store) and
then back by and sometimes someone they like is there or whatever.
Maybe you could arrange to take someone else with you to insure there's a kid
he likes, and if the two of them meet other kids great, and if not, they
still play.
Sandra
Tracy and Gilbert Valdez
I don't think it was a bad mommy moment - it was life. He is a kid that
is learning to push buttons because of his disappointment in the
situation at hand. Simply fact of the matter is sometimes we all have to
do errands we don't want to do. When we do, we can pout, be nasty to
others, or make the most of it by taking along a different activity to
occupy ourselves with. If we are nasty, that choice of behavior earns no
priviledges of anything later he wants to do. If he pouts, ten as long
as he isn't nasty, he is just making his time there miserable for
himself. But if he chooses to be occupied by a book, game or other
manipulative or toy, then he earns the priviledge of doing an activity
he chooses at a more convientent or appropriate time. This is called
family.and it gets hectic and unbearable at times.
The choice of his behavior is his to make - the consequences of his
choices need to be clear and absolute and most consistent. Choose to be
ugly = lose preiviledges, choose to be polite = earns rewards or extra
priviledges. Give him the power and make the consequences strong or
detestable enough to make him WANT to choose proper behavior.
HTH!
Tracy - who is working this theory with her 4 year old.
-----Original Message-----
From: Kelly Lenhart [mailto:mina@...]
Sent: Monday, May 12, 2003 5:52 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] bad mommy moment
I am so frustrated and very unhappy with how I just responded to my son.
I told him that there was a local homeschooling for little kids. That
the
kids would be from his bother's age (2) up to his age (7) and it would
be at
a playground.
His response? "I'm not going." Uhm, you are 7 and can't stay home by
yourself. I'd love to leave him home whenever it's something he doesn't
want to do, but hey, he's only 7. Can't do it.
So, I lost it. This is the latest in a long line of "I'm not going" or
"No,
you can't." responses from him. Lately it seems like I'm spending a lot
of
time making things that have to be done fun for him. Like, we have to
go to
the bank. I can't leave him home so....And money is tight, this is
something that CAN'T be put off. But I have to schedule a whole day's
activities, some costing money, just to get him out the door without a
fight. I totally blew up at him. Told him I was sick of him making
decisions for everyone. Sick for example of having to wait around until
he
wakes up at noon and missing things that his brother would enjoy. Sick
of
bending over backwards when I shouldn't have to.
'Course, then the really bad thing--said I was thinking of sending him
to
school next year 'cause I was tired of dealing with his negative
attitude.
Uhm, can I rewind that part? Please?
Now, I don't mind making necessary things--like the bank, and the
grocery
store, etc--fun. But up until Friday we didn't have a car and it was a
BIG
DEAL to get this stuff done. Just the way it was. Now we have a car
and
I'll have more flexibility. The stuff that used to be a big deal can be
handled around all the other stuff and be just a blip.
But I just don't know what to do or say. Hey, we are a family.
Sometimes
we have to go do things we would rather not so that others can do it.
It'll
get better when he's older and CAN stay home, but not now. Should we
all
have to sit around and watch him watch cartoons? If we ARE home and
there
isn't something that someone else wants to do, fine. But if there is?
I either need some magic words to explain to him that we all need a turn
or
some magic words to make it ok with me to never get to have one or give
one
to his brother. (And yes, I realize that at 2 his brother doesn't "want
to
go" to the playgroup. IT's my idea and schedule. But his brother WOULD
enjoy it and why shouldn't we go?)
Kelly
frustrated and annoyed with me and him
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
is learning to push buttons because of his disappointment in the
situation at hand. Simply fact of the matter is sometimes we all have to
do errands we don't want to do. When we do, we can pout, be nasty to
others, or make the most of it by taking along a different activity to
occupy ourselves with. If we are nasty, that choice of behavior earns no
priviledges of anything later he wants to do. If he pouts, ten as long
as he isn't nasty, he is just making his time there miserable for
himself. But if he chooses to be occupied by a book, game or other
manipulative or toy, then he earns the priviledge of doing an activity
he chooses at a more convientent or appropriate time. This is called
family.and it gets hectic and unbearable at times.
The choice of his behavior is his to make - the consequences of his
choices need to be clear and absolute and most consistent. Choose to be
ugly = lose preiviledges, choose to be polite = earns rewards or extra
priviledges. Give him the power and make the consequences strong or
detestable enough to make him WANT to choose proper behavior.
HTH!
Tracy - who is working this theory with her 4 year old.
-----Original Message-----
From: Kelly Lenhart [mailto:mina@...]
Sent: Monday, May 12, 2003 5:52 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] bad mommy moment
I am so frustrated and very unhappy with how I just responded to my son.
I told him that there was a local homeschooling for little kids. That
the
kids would be from his bother's age (2) up to his age (7) and it would
be at
a playground.
His response? "I'm not going." Uhm, you are 7 and can't stay home by
yourself. I'd love to leave him home whenever it's something he doesn't
want to do, but hey, he's only 7. Can't do it.
So, I lost it. This is the latest in a long line of "I'm not going" or
"No,
you can't." responses from him. Lately it seems like I'm spending a lot
of
time making things that have to be done fun for him. Like, we have to
go to
the bank. I can't leave him home so....And money is tight, this is
something that CAN'T be put off. But I have to schedule a whole day's
activities, some costing money, just to get him out the door without a
fight. I totally blew up at him. Told him I was sick of him making
decisions for everyone. Sick for example of having to wait around until
he
wakes up at noon and missing things that his brother would enjoy. Sick
of
bending over backwards when I shouldn't have to.
'Course, then the really bad thing--said I was thinking of sending him
to
school next year 'cause I was tired of dealing with his negative
attitude.
Uhm, can I rewind that part? Please?
Now, I don't mind making necessary things--like the bank, and the
grocery
store, etc--fun. But up until Friday we didn't have a car and it was a
BIG
DEAL to get this stuff done. Just the way it was. Now we have a car
and
I'll have more flexibility. The stuff that used to be a big deal can be
handled around all the other stuff and be just a blip.
But I just don't know what to do or say. Hey, we are a family.
Sometimes
we have to go do things we would rather not so that others can do it.
It'll
get better when he's older and CAN stay home, but not now. Should we
all
have to sit around and watch him watch cartoons? If we ARE home and
there
isn't something that someone else wants to do, fine. But if there is?
I either need some magic words to explain to him that we all need a turn
or
some magic words to make it ok with me to never get to have one or give
one
to his brother. (And yes, I realize that at 2 his brother doesn't "want
to
go" to the playgroup. IT's my idea and schedule. But his brother WOULD
enjoy it and why shouldn't we go?)
Kelly
frustrated and annoyed with me and him
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/12/03 5:52:14 PM, gtvaldez@... writes:
<< The choice of his behavior is his to make - the consequences of his
choices need to be clear and absolute and most consistent. Choose to be
ugly = lose preiviledges, choose to be polite = earns rewards or extra
priviledges. Give him the power and make the consequences strong or
detestable enough to make him WANT to choose proper behavior. >>
Tracy, that's not the best way to build real trust and judgment in a kid.
I'm guessing you're new to the list, and that's cool, but I think it still
maintains quite an us-and-them dichotomy between parents and kids and
unschooling works better without so much of that.
Sandra
<< The choice of his behavior is his to make - the consequences of his
choices need to be clear and absolute and most consistent. Choose to be
ugly = lose preiviledges, choose to be polite = earns rewards or extra
priviledges. Give him the power and make the consequences strong or
detestable enough to make him WANT to choose proper behavior. >>
Tracy, that's not the best way to build real trust and judgment in a kid.
I'm guessing you're new to the list, and that's cool, but I think it still
maintains quite an us-and-them dichotomy between parents and kids and
unschooling works better without so much of that.
Sandra
jmcseals SEALS
Kelly,
First, I would tell him what you told us! You had a bad mommy moment and
said things you didn't mean, then specifically tell him what those things
were. I agree with you, you can't always stop life for an unwilling child.
I would state that we are going to the park and he can bring something to
occupy himself if he doesn't want to play wih the other kids or equipment.
I also wouldn't ive him such advanced notice. Sometimes, I think it's best
to say, we are going to the park in 30 minutes, so if you'd like for me to
help you something to do in case you get bored, I'd be happy to help you.
And then do it. If he chooses not to bring anything and gets bored, he'll
remember next time. Although I wonder if he might not have fun while he's
there anyway, despite his protests. :)
Life happens and that doesn't stop just because we have kids. I think we
need to be able to set our limits and boundries while helping our children
find peaceful options when they might prefer to do things otherwise.
Jennifer
_________________________________________________________________
The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE*
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
First, I would tell him what you told us! You had a bad mommy moment and
said things you didn't mean, then specifically tell him what those things
were. I agree with you, you can't always stop life for an unwilling child.
I would state that we are going to the park and he can bring something to
occupy himself if he doesn't want to play wih the other kids or equipment.
I also wouldn't ive him such advanced notice. Sometimes, I think it's best
to say, we are going to the park in 30 minutes, so if you'd like for me to
help you something to do in case you get bored, I'd be happy to help you.
And then do it. If he chooses not to bring anything and gets bored, he'll
remember next time. Although I wonder if he might not have fun while he's
there anyway, despite his protests. :)
Life happens and that doesn't stop just because we have kids. I think we
need to be able to set our limits and boundries while helping our children
find peaceful options when they might prefer to do things otherwise.
Jennifer
_________________________________________________________________
The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kelli Traaseth
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tracy and Gilbert Valdez" <gtvaldez@...>
**The choice of his behavior is his to make - the consequences of his
choices need to be clear and absolute and most consistent. Choose to be
ugly = lose preiviledges, choose to be polite = earns rewards or extra
priviledges. Give him the power and make the consequences strong or
detestable enough to make him WANT to choose proper behavior.**
I was just wondering if you've ever looked into Alfie Kohn's book _Punished
by Rewards_?
It may give you another view to punishments and rewards.
http://www.alfiekohn.org/books/pbr.htm
Kelli
Tracy and Gilbert Valdez
How can consequences to one's choice of behavior cause nontrust issues?
If a child knows that hitting a friend will result in that friend not
wanting to be around him - that is a consequence of his behavior choice.
If my child throws a ball at me in anger, and I take the ball away then
he knows that throwing an item out of anger will result in losing access
to that item until it is played with properly. If my child willfully
misbehaves because he needs to attend a trip to a park so his sibling
can enjoy some bonding time, and that choice of his misbehavior causes
him to lose his time to play at his friend's later on.how does that
build mistrust?
And what exactly would the unschooling parent do to a willfully
misbehaving child?
The context of my statements are made entirely in an uninformed
viewpoint - please read it as me being inquisitive and wanting to learn.
Thanks -
Tracy
-----Original Message-----
From: SandraDodd@... [mailto:SandraDodd@...]
Sent: Monday, May 12, 2003 7:42 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] bad mommy moment
In a message dated 5/12/03 5:52:14 PM, gtvaldez@... writes:
<< The choice of his behavior is his to make - the consequences of his
choices need to be clear and absolute and most consistent. Choose to be
ugly = lose preiviledges, choose to be polite = earns rewards or extra
priviledges. Give him the power and make the consequences strong or
detestable enough to make him WANT to choose proper behavior. >>
Tracy, that's not the best way to build real trust and judgment in a
kid.
I'm guessing you're new to the list, and that's cool, but I think it
still
maintains quite an us-and-them dichotomy between parents and kids and
unschooling works better without so much of that.
Sandra
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
If a child knows that hitting a friend will result in that friend not
wanting to be around him - that is a consequence of his behavior choice.
If my child throws a ball at me in anger, and I take the ball away then
he knows that throwing an item out of anger will result in losing access
to that item until it is played with properly. If my child willfully
misbehaves because he needs to attend a trip to a park so his sibling
can enjoy some bonding time, and that choice of his misbehavior causes
him to lose his time to play at his friend's later on.how does that
build mistrust?
And what exactly would the unschooling parent do to a willfully
misbehaving child?
The context of my statements are made entirely in an uninformed
viewpoint - please read it as me being inquisitive and wanting to learn.
Thanks -
Tracy
-----Original Message-----
From: SandraDodd@... [mailto:SandraDodd@...]
Sent: Monday, May 12, 2003 7:42 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] bad mommy moment
In a message dated 5/12/03 5:52:14 PM, gtvaldez@... writes:
<< The choice of his behavior is his to make - the consequences of his
choices need to be clear and absolute and most consistent. Choose to be
ugly = lose preiviledges, choose to be polite = earns rewards or extra
priviledges. Give him the power and make the consequences strong or
detestable enough to make him WANT to choose proper behavior. >>
Tracy, that's not the best way to build real trust and judgment in a
kid.
I'm guessing you're new to the list, and that's cool, but I think it
still
maintains quite an us-and-them dichotomy between parents and kids and
unschooling works better without so much of that.
Sandra
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
<http://rd.yahoo.com/M=253841.3292458.4586253.1261774/D=egroupweb/S=1705
081972:HM/A=1504866/R=1/*http:/autos.yahoo.com?refsrc=autos/ads/feature/
LREC>
2003 Mini Cooper 2003 Nissan 350Z 2003 BMW M3 2003 Honda Accord 2003
Toyota Camry more...
<http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=253841.3292458.4586253.1261774/D=egrou
pmail/S=:HM/A=1504866/rand=234329172>
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Tracy and Gilbert Valdez
I don't see anything I suggested as punishment - I see them as logical
consequences to his misbehavior - and the rewards are again based on the
system of earning the priviledge of something he would like to do.not a
gift or monetary or tangent thing as a reward.
Tracy
-----Original Message-----
From: Kelli Traaseth [mailto:tktraas@...]
Sent: Monday, May 12, 2003 8:01 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] bad mommy moment
consequences to his misbehavior - and the rewards are again based on the
system of earning the priviledge of something he would like to do.not a
gift or monetary or tangent thing as a reward.
Tracy
-----Original Message-----
From: Kelli Traaseth [mailto:tktraas@...]
Sent: Monday, May 12, 2003 8:01 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] bad mommy moment
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tracy and Gilbert Valdez" <gtvaldez@...>
**The choice of his behavior is his to make - the consequences of his
choices need to be clear and absolute and most consistent. Choose to be
ugly = lose preiviledges, choose to be polite = earns rewards or extra
priviledges. Give him the power and make the consequences strong or
detestable enough to make him WANT to choose proper behavior.**
I was just wondering if you've ever looked into Alfie Kohn's book
_Punished
by Rewards_?
It may give you another view to punishments and rewards.
http://www.alfiekohn.org/books/pbr.htm
Kelli
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jmcseals SEALS
**How can consequences to one's choice of behavior cause nontrust issues?
If a child knows that hitting a friend will result in that friend not
wanting to be around him - that is a consequence of his behavior choice.***
True, that is a consequence of his behavior. There are other possibilities.
One being that he is told that hitting people is not a way to keep friends.
I'd discuss the reason he chose to hit, if possible in front of his friend,
and ask if he might think of another way to solve the problem so they can
get back to being friendly. I definitely wouldn't leave him to his chosen
devices and lose the chance to learn peaceful conflict resolution skills and
having friends.
**If my child throws a ball at me in anger, and I take the ball away then
he knows that throwing an item out of anger will result in losing access
to that item until it is played with properly.**
The key here is "until it is played with properly". Honestly, if the ball
is taken away, he doesn't have the chance to play with it, properly or not.
You might try showing him how to play with the ball without harming others
and if he is angry, looking at the reasoning behind his anger and addressing
that. Hitting you with a ball is either an accident or a display of
emotion. I'd forgive the accidents and address the emotions.
<<< If my child willfully
misbehaves because he needs to attend a trip to a park so his sibling
can enjoy some bonding time, and that choice of his misbehavior causes
him to lose his time to play at his friend's later on.how does that
build mistrust?>>>
Because the punishment has nothing to do with the *crime*. They rarely ever
do. Why not offer him something to take along to the park to keep himself
busy? Offer to play with HIM while his brother or sister plays with the
other kids. I might also offer to do something of his choosing before or
after the playdate so everyone has the chance to do something they want to
do. He is more likely to be accomodating of the playdate if he knows he can
choose something HE likes to do before or after. If his emotions behind his
actions are addressed and acknowledged and alternatives suggested he has the
ability to learn problem solving and *trusts* that you are with him, not
against him. He may not like the option still, but at least he can now
trust that Mom cares about his needs and wants and will try to accomodate
him while still following through with the task at hand.
***And what exactly would the unschooling parent do to a willfully
misbehaving child?***
This unschooling mom would do all of the above while loving, listening,
accomodating when possible or offering something desireable afterwards as an
alternative and never forget HUMOR! Laughter breaks up the worst of times!
***The context of my statements are made entirely in an uninformed
viewpoint - please read it as me being inquisitive and wanting to learn.***
I find that a highly respectable trait! I commend you on looking for and be
open to better and more peaceful possibilities! Slowly, as you begin to
incorporate new strategies, you will see amazing changes and progress and
see your children opening up and behaving in ways you neve thought possible!
Peace and Joy!
Jennifer
_________________________________________________________________
MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
If a child knows that hitting a friend will result in that friend not
wanting to be around him - that is a consequence of his behavior choice.***
True, that is a consequence of his behavior. There are other possibilities.
One being that he is told that hitting people is not a way to keep friends.
I'd discuss the reason he chose to hit, if possible in front of his friend,
and ask if he might think of another way to solve the problem so they can
get back to being friendly. I definitely wouldn't leave him to his chosen
devices and lose the chance to learn peaceful conflict resolution skills and
having friends.
**If my child throws a ball at me in anger, and I take the ball away then
he knows that throwing an item out of anger will result in losing access
to that item until it is played with properly.**
The key here is "until it is played with properly". Honestly, if the ball
is taken away, he doesn't have the chance to play with it, properly or not.
You might try showing him how to play with the ball without harming others
and if he is angry, looking at the reasoning behind his anger and addressing
that. Hitting you with a ball is either an accident or a display of
emotion. I'd forgive the accidents and address the emotions.
<<< If my child willfully
misbehaves because he needs to attend a trip to a park so his sibling
can enjoy some bonding time, and that choice of his misbehavior causes
him to lose his time to play at his friend's later on.how does that
build mistrust?>>>
Because the punishment has nothing to do with the *crime*. They rarely ever
do. Why not offer him something to take along to the park to keep himself
busy? Offer to play with HIM while his brother or sister plays with the
other kids. I might also offer to do something of his choosing before or
after the playdate so everyone has the chance to do something they want to
do. He is more likely to be accomodating of the playdate if he knows he can
choose something HE likes to do before or after. If his emotions behind his
actions are addressed and acknowledged and alternatives suggested he has the
ability to learn problem solving and *trusts* that you are with him, not
against him. He may not like the option still, but at least he can now
trust that Mom cares about his needs and wants and will try to accomodate
him while still following through with the task at hand.
***And what exactly would the unschooling parent do to a willfully
misbehaving child?***
This unschooling mom would do all of the above while loving, listening,
accomodating when possible or offering something desireable afterwards as an
alternative and never forget HUMOR! Laughter breaks up the worst of times!
***The context of my statements are made entirely in an uninformed
viewpoint - please read it as me being inquisitive and wanting to learn.***
I find that a highly respectable trait! I commend you on looking for and be
open to better and more peaceful possibilities! Slowly, as you begin to
incorporate new strategies, you will see amazing changes and progress and
see your children opening up and behaving in ways you neve thought possible!
Peace and Joy!
Jennifer
_________________________________________________________________
MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
jmcseals SEALS
**I don't see anything I suggested as punishment - I see them as logical
consequences to his misbehavior - and the rewards are again based on the
system of earning the priviledge of something he would like to do.not a
gift or monetary or tangent thing as a reward. ***
Take throwing a ball at you for the example I'm giving here.....
When he throws the ball at you and you take it away from him, the
consequence of *your* action of removing the ball from his possesion is that
*he* can't play with it. He hasn't learned anything other than the fact
that you are bigger and better at taking things away. He needs to
understand that throwing a ball at someone hurts. *His* consequence of his
actions is seeing you hurt. If you offer a safe alternative to his reason
for throwing the ball and model safe ball throwing for him and with him, his
reward is learning that he can learn peaceful outlets for his emotions and
safe ball playing while still feeling peace with mom. He trusts that you
love him and respect his feelings and will help him resolve his mistakes.
Taking the ball away doesn't resolve the fact that he hit you with the ball.
It only resolves the fact that he won't get to do it again...for the
moment.
I hope that flows and makes sense!
Jennifer
_________________________________________________________________
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
consequences to his misbehavior - and the rewards are again based on the
system of earning the priviledge of something he would like to do.not a
gift or monetary or tangent thing as a reward. ***
Take throwing a ball at you for the example I'm giving here.....
When he throws the ball at you and you take it away from him, the
consequence of *your* action of removing the ball from his possesion is that
*he* can't play with it. He hasn't learned anything other than the fact
that you are bigger and better at taking things away. He needs to
understand that throwing a ball at someone hurts. *His* consequence of his
actions is seeing you hurt. If you offer a safe alternative to his reason
for throwing the ball and model safe ball throwing for him and with him, his
reward is learning that he can learn peaceful outlets for his emotions and
safe ball playing while still feeling peace with mom. He trusts that you
love him and respect his feelings and will help him resolve his mistakes.
Taking the ball away doesn't resolve the fact that he hit you with the ball.
It only resolves the fact that he won't get to do it again...for the
moment.
I hope that flows and makes sense!
Jennifer
_________________________________________________________________
Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*.
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/12/03 7:27:15 PM, gtvaldez@... writes:
<< I don't see anything I suggested as punishment - I see them as logical
consequences to his misbehavior - >>
Same thing.
Natural consequences are things that happen naturally.
"Logical consequence" is a fancified name for "punishment."
<< and the rewards are again based on the
system of earning the priviledge of something he would like to do>>
Like what?
Sandra
<< I don't see anything I suggested as punishment - I see them as logical
consequences to his misbehavior - >>
Same thing.
Natural consequences are things that happen naturally.
"Logical consequence" is a fancified name for "punishment."
<< and the rewards are again based on the
system of earning the priviledge of something he would like to do>>
Like what?
Sandra
Kelly Lenhart
I know this was in response to another mom's questions, but...
table. He might have to wait for me while I check on his brother every now
and again, but I'm not big on chasing the two year old around anyway. At
five months pregnant I usually watch and wave as it is.
money to go along with erands we have to run. I was bothered by it for a
while, but frankly, I treat myself at moments like that. I just can't
afford him anymore.
do it. I've pointed out that I've trucked along with him on things I didn't
want to do, just so he could do them, too. But, true as that is, when I
bring it up at moments like that it seems like guilt.
Kelly
>Why not offer him something to take along to the park to keep himselfWell, he has his gameboy he can always bring. I can remind him of that.
>busy?
> Offer to play with HIM while his brother or sister plays with theWhat a MARVELOUS idea!!!! We could easily bring a board game and sit at a
>other kids.
table. He might have to wait for me while I check on his brother every now
and again, but I'm not big on chasing the two year old around anyway. At
five months pregnant I usually watch and wave as it is.
>I might also offer to do something of his choosing before orI've been doing this and it seems like it is escalating. I've even paid him
>after the playdate so everyone has the chance to do something they want to
>do.
money to go along with erands we have to run. I was bothered by it for a
while, but frankly, I treat myself at moments like that. I just can't
afford him anymore.
> He may not like the option still, but at least he can nowI honestly HAVE been working on this. I just don't like the way I sometimes
>trust that Mom cares about his needs and wants and will try to accomodate
>him while still following through with the task at hand.
do it. I've pointed out that I've trucked along with him on things I didn't
want to do, just so he could do them, too. But, true as that is, when I
bring it up at moments like that it seems like guilt.
Kelly
Tracy and Gilbert Valdez
I suppose my answers were too short to accommodate my full explanation.
I would never have left the consequences/behavior with the single action
of, for instance, taking the ball away. I didn't expand to include the
rest of similar actions as I think I assumed that would have been
natuarally what would have occurred IN ADDITION to the taking of the
ball.
I agree with everything you expanded on. I have raised my children with
the thought process that every action we take, there is an equal and
opposite reaction. Negative choices are rewarded with negative
consequences. Not punishment but logical consequences.
In the problem with the child that is behaving in a negative manner to
things that a family must do to survive and thrive.he is making the time
for his sibling to go to the park an unmanageable time for the entire
family. An equal reversal and logical consequence would be that he
forfeits HIS time that would be spent with a friend that day. I still do
not see this as a punishment.he used his brother's time to go to the
play date by being negative and ugly. So in exchange for mom spending
the effort to let him engage in his play date, he needs to forfeit it.
I would have thought that all the things suggested by you below would
have already been done.the mother already said, "Lately it seems like
I'm spending a lot of time making things that have to be done fun for
him." I took this to mean she had already tried the negotiating of
terms of play (your suggestion) and the well, find something to take
with you, and the other logical things. If she did and the son was still
rebuking going, at what point to you make him accountable for his
feelings and acting out about them?
I do want to apologize as I reread the original message - I
misunderstood her statement regarding the sending him to public school
next year part. I read it as though she THOUGHT it and when I reread it
just now, I read it correctly. I would address this as being most
profusely apologetic and explaining how frustrated you were as a mom
needing to balance the needs of her kids and meeting the stress point of
his choice to act up about going. Discussing how his choice to
misbehaves makes it difficult for you to meet his little brothers need
to socialize and you might even ask him some thoughts on how it could be
made better next time so that he might enjoy the time better. I
NATURALLY would have assumed that one would have tried to find the cause
for such behavior. I personally rarely need to delve into the mind of my
4 year old to get him to talk about his needs that aren't being met. I
AM NOT WITH EXPERIENCE in the older child's needs and frustrations yet
so I can only offer what I think I would do. But being an experienced
childcare provider for 12 years of in home care.I kept many children for
5-10 years each.that is what I would do.
Hope I didn't offend anyone - I still am a believer in consequences of
actions. I just don't think I expanded enough on my suggestions that
perhaps it was read mistakenly as reward good behavior/punish bad.and
that, I don't believe in.
Tracy
-----Original Message-----
From: jmcseals SEALS [mailto:jmcseals@...]
Sent: Monday, May 12, 2003 8:38 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: [Unschooling-dotcom] bad mommy moment
**How can consequences to one's choice of behavior cause nontrust
issues?
If a child knows that hitting a friend will result in that friend not
wanting to be around him - that is a consequence of his behavior
choice.***
True, that is a consequence of his behavior. There are other
possibilities.
One being that he is told that hitting people is not a way to keep
friends.
I'd discuss the reason he chose to hit, if possible in front of his
friend,
and ask if he might think of another way to solve the problem so they
can
get back to being friendly. I definitely wouldn't leave him to his
chosen
devices and lose the chance to learn peaceful conflict resolution skills
and
having friends.
**If my child throws a ball at me in anger, and I take the ball away
then
he knows that throwing an item out of anger will result in losing access
to that item until it is played with properly.**
The key here is "until it is played with properly". Honestly, if the
ball
is taken away, he doesn't have the chance to play with it, properly or
not.
You might try showing him how to play with the ball without harming
others
and if he is angry, looking at the reasoning behind his anger and
addressing
that. Hitting you with a ball is either an accident or a display of
emotion. I'd forgive the accidents and address the emotions.
<<< If my child willfully
misbehaves because he needs to attend a trip to a park so his sibling
can enjoy some bonding time, and that choice of his misbehavior causes
him to lose his time to play at his friend's later on.how does that
build mistrust?>>>
Because the punishment has nothing to do with the *crime*. They rarely
ever
do. Why not offer him something to take along to the park to keep
himself
busy? Offer to play with HIM while his brother or sister plays with the
other kids. I might also offer to do something of his choosing before
or
after the playdate so everyone has the chance to do something they want
to
do. He is more likely to be accomodating of the playdate if he knows he
can
choose something HE likes to do before or after. If his emotions behind
his
actions are addressed and acknowledged and alternatives suggested he has
the
ability to learn problem solving and *trusts* that you are with him, not
against him. He may not like the option still, but at least he can now
trust that Mom cares about his needs and wants and will try to
accomodate
him while still following through with the task at hand.
***And what exactly would the unschooling parent do to a willfully
misbehaving child?***
This unschooling mom would do all of the above while loving, listening,
accomodating when possible or offering something desireable afterwards
as an
alternative and never forget HUMOR! Laughter breaks up the worst of
times!
***The context of my statements are made entirely in an uninformed
viewpoint - please read it as me being inquisitive and wanting to
learn.***
I find that a highly respectable trait! I commend you on looking for
and be
open to better and more peaceful possibilities! Slowly, as you begin to
incorporate new strategies, you will see amazing changes and progress
and
see your children opening up and behaving in ways you neve thought
possible!
Peace and Joy!
Jennifer
_________________________________________________________________
MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I would never have left the consequences/behavior with the single action
of, for instance, taking the ball away. I didn't expand to include the
rest of similar actions as I think I assumed that would have been
natuarally what would have occurred IN ADDITION to the taking of the
ball.
I agree with everything you expanded on. I have raised my children with
the thought process that every action we take, there is an equal and
opposite reaction. Negative choices are rewarded with negative
consequences. Not punishment but logical consequences.
In the problem with the child that is behaving in a negative manner to
things that a family must do to survive and thrive.he is making the time
for his sibling to go to the park an unmanageable time for the entire
family. An equal reversal and logical consequence would be that he
forfeits HIS time that would be spent with a friend that day. I still do
not see this as a punishment.he used his brother's time to go to the
play date by being negative and ugly. So in exchange for mom spending
the effort to let him engage in his play date, he needs to forfeit it.
I would have thought that all the things suggested by you below would
have already been done.the mother already said, "Lately it seems like
I'm spending a lot of time making things that have to be done fun for
him." I took this to mean she had already tried the negotiating of
terms of play (your suggestion) and the well, find something to take
with you, and the other logical things. If she did and the son was still
rebuking going, at what point to you make him accountable for his
feelings and acting out about them?
I do want to apologize as I reread the original message - I
misunderstood her statement regarding the sending him to public school
next year part. I read it as though she THOUGHT it and when I reread it
just now, I read it correctly. I would address this as being most
profusely apologetic and explaining how frustrated you were as a mom
needing to balance the needs of her kids and meeting the stress point of
his choice to act up about going. Discussing how his choice to
misbehaves makes it difficult for you to meet his little brothers need
to socialize and you might even ask him some thoughts on how it could be
made better next time so that he might enjoy the time better. I
NATURALLY would have assumed that one would have tried to find the cause
for such behavior. I personally rarely need to delve into the mind of my
4 year old to get him to talk about his needs that aren't being met. I
AM NOT WITH EXPERIENCE in the older child's needs and frustrations yet
so I can only offer what I think I would do. But being an experienced
childcare provider for 12 years of in home care.I kept many children for
5-10 years each.that is what I would do.
Hope I didn't offend anyone - I still am a believer in consequences of
actions. I just don't think I expanded enough on my suggestions that
perhaps it was read mistakenly as reward good behavior/punish bad.and
that, I don't believe in.
Tracy
-----Original Message-----
From: jmcseals SEALS [mailto:jmcseals@...]
Sent: Monday, May 12, 2003 8:38 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: [Unschooling-dotcom] bad mommy moment
**How can consequences to one's choice of behavior cause nontrust
issues?
If a child knows that hitting a friend will result in that friend not
wanting to be around him - that is a consequence of his behavior
choice.***
True, that is a consequence of his behavior. There are other
possibilities.
One being that he is told that hitting people is not a way to keep
friends.
I'd discuss the reason he chose to hit, if possible in front of his
friend,
and ask if he might think of another way to solve the problem so they
can
get back to being friendly. I definitely wouldn't leave him to his
chosen
devices and lose the chance to learn peaceful conflict resolution skills
and
having friends.
**If my child throws a ball at me in anger, and I take the ball away
then
he knows that throwing an item out of anger will result in losing access
to that item until it is played with properly.**
The key here is "until it is played with properly". Honestly, if the
ball
is taken away, he doesn't have the chance to play with it, properly or
not.
You might try showing him how to play with the ball without harming
others
and if he is angry, looking at the reasoning behind his anger and
addressing
that. Hitting you with a ball is either an accident or a display of
emotion. I'd forgive the accidents and address the emotions.
<<< If my child willfully
misbehaves because he needs to attend a trip to a park so his sibling
can enjoy some bonding time, and that choice of his misbehavior causes
him to lose his time to play at his friend's later on.how does that
build mistrust?>>>
Because the punishment has nothing to do with the *crime*. They rarely
ever
do. Why not offer him something to take along to the park to keep
himself
busy? Offer to play with HIM while his brother or sister plays with the
other kids. I might also offer to do something of his choosing before
or
after the playdate so everyone has the chance to do something they want
to
do. He is more likely to be accomodating of the playdate if he knows he
can
choose something HE likes to do before or after. If his emotions behind
his
actions are addressed and acknowledged and alternatives suggested he has
the
ability to learn problem solving and *trusts* that you are with him, not
against him. He may not like the option still, but at least he can now
trust that Mom cares about his needs and wants and will try to
accomodate
him while still following through with the task at hand.
***And what exactly would the unschooling parent do to a willfully
misbehaving child?***
This unschooling mom would do all of the above while loving, listening,
accomodating when possible or offering something desireable afterwards
as an
alternative and never forget HUMOR! Laughter breaks up the worst of
times!
***The context of my statements are made entirely in an uninformed
viewpoint - please read it as me being inquisitive and wanting to
learn.***
I find that a highly respectable trait! I commend you on looking for
and be
open to better and more peaceful possibilities! Slowly, as you begin to
incorporate new strategies, you will see amazing changes and progress
and
see your children opening up and behaving in ways you neve thought
possible!
Peace and Joy!
Jennifer
_________________________________________________________________
MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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[email protected]
In a message dated 5/12/03 7:40:36 PM, jmcseals@... writes:
<< ***And what exactly would the unschooling parent do to a willfully
misbehaving child?*** >>
"Exactly" makes the question seem snarky to me.
For me, I neither use the word "willfully" nor "misbehaving."
Schools and parents used to be advised and instructed how to break a child's
will.
I do NOT want to "break my child's will."
"Willfully" means "because he wants to."
Why would a child want to do something mean or bad?
My kids don't.
It's not that they never did, it's that when they did we found better ways,
together, for them to express their frustration or disappointment or
whatever.
Lots of parents punish children for behaving rationally to bad parental
behavior. It's a shame. It has gone on a long time, but any family wanting
to stop can stop.
If a mom promises something and breaks her promise and the kids
understandably get angry or say something about it, how often are kids
punished instead of apologized to and appeased? How many parents express
remorse for their own bad behavior toward their children, yet don't set an
example of how to act when they've screwed up?
And "behaving" isn't the opposite of "misbehaving," except where "behave" has
become shorthand for "act the way I would like for you to or you'll be in
trouble."
Everyone is behaving all the time, every time they decide how to wipe their
nose or where to sit. How can on "mis"behave? By not matching a
pre-conceived pattern decided before they were born?
""<< ***And what exactly would the unschooling parent do to a willfully
misbehaving child?*** >>""
Maybe the question should just be "How would you treat someone you really
loved"?
I know it sounds irritating to people whose kids are older and who are new to
this whole principle/respect business, who have lived by rules and schedules,
but my kids don't misbehave. They're honest and helpful and considerate.
It's not because they're afraid they'll get in trouble because they don't.
It's because they choose to be honest and helpful and considerate, because
they see the direct value of it and the immediate usefulness and goodness of
it.
It didn't happen overnight, but it CAN happen. And if it can't happen with a
kid who's belt-trained, or 13 and really defiant (I would defy mean
rules-wielding parents who didn't think much of me too), that does NOT mean
it can't happen with families here whose kids are younger, who haven't been
told that bedtime and obedience are what will get them into college and/or
heaven.
Sandra
<< ***And what exactly would the unschooling parent do to a willfully
misbehaving child?*** >>
"Exactly" makes the question seem snarky to me.
For me, I neither use the word "willfully" nor "misbehaving."
Schools and parents used to be advised and instructed how to break a child's
will.
I do NOT want to "break my child's will."
"Willfully" means "because he wants to."
Why would a child want to do something mean or bad?
My kids don't.
It's not that they never did, it's that when they did we found better ways,
together, for them to express their frustration or disappointment or
whatever.
Lots of parents punish children for behaving rationally to bad parental
behavior. It's a shame. It has gone on a long time, but any family wanting
to stop can stop.
If a mom promises something and breaks her promise and the kids
understandably get angry or say something about it, how often are kids
punished instead of apologized to and appeased? How many parents express
remorse for their own bad behavior toward their children, yet don't set an
example of how to act when they've screwed up?
And "behaving" isn't the opposite of "misbehaving," except where "behave" has
become shorthand for "act the way I would like for you to or you'll be in
trouble."
Everyone is behaving all the time, every time they decide how to wipe their
nose or where to sit. How can on "mis"behave? By not matching a
pre-conceived pattern decided before they were born?
""<< ***And what exactly would the unschooling parent do to a willfully
misbehaving child?*** >>""
Maybe the question should just be "How would you treat someone you really
loved"?
I know it sounds irritating to people whose kids are older and who are new to
this whole principle/respect business, who have lived by rules and schedules,
but my kids don't misbehave. They're honest and helpful and considerate.
It's not because they're afraid they'll get in trouble because they don't.
It's because they choose to be honest and helpful and considerate, because
they see the direct value of it and the immediate usefulness and goodness of
it.
It didn't happen overnight, but it CAN happen. And if it can't happen with a
kid who's belt-trained, or 13 and really defiant (I would defy mean
rules-wielding parents who didn't think much of me too), that does NOT mean
it can't happen with families here whose kids are younger, who haven't been
told that bedtime and obedience are what will get them into college and/or
heaven.
Sandra
Tracy and Gilbert Valdez
(a little humor here) I would not have taken the ball away from him -
he just threw it at me so it was already in my possession therefore the
consequence is still logical.I do not like balls that are thrown at me
in anger and my action would be to put this ball outside so it doesn't
hit me again.
I see your point and position. In my 4 year old - I know he is aware of
the consequences of a thrown-in-anger ball. He KNOWS that hurts and if
he just threw it out of anger, the ball would be put outside, "where it
won't hurt me again." And then we'd sit and talk. And discuss
rationally: 1) what is bothering him; 2) a solution for what is
bothering him; and 3) what actions he can take next time his feelings
are in this realm of emotions.and what actions he would choose to not do
again.
If this scenario happened at my home, what I mentioned about would occur
- he wouldn't be punished for throwing the ball in anger or hitting or
hurting me. He wouldn't be grounded from the ball. It would be outside
should he want to play with it again.
Tracy
-----Original Message-----
From: jmcseals SEALS [mailto:jmcseals@...]
Sent: Monday, May 12, 2003 8:49 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: [Unschooling-dotcom] bad mommy moment
**I don't see anything I suggested as punishment - I see them as logical
consequences to his misbehavior - and the rewards are again based on the
system of earning the priviledge of something he would like to do.not a
gift or monetary or tangent thing as a reward. ***
Take throwing a ball at you for the example I'm giving here.....
When he throws the ball at you and you take it away from him, the
consequence of *your* action of removing the ball from his possesion is
that
*he* can't play with it. He hasn't learned anything other than the fact
that you are bigger and better at taking things away. He needs to
understand that throwing a ball at someone hurts. *His* consequence of
his
actions is seeing you hurt. If you offer a safe alternative to his
reason
for throwing the ball and model safe ball throwing for him and with him,
his
reward is learning that he can learn peaceful outlets for his emotions
and
safe ball playing while still feeling peace with mom. He trusts that
you
love him and respect his feelings and will help him resolve his
mistakes.
Taking the ball away doesn't resolve the fact that he hit you with the
ball.
It only resolves the fact that he won't get to do it again...for the
moment.
I hope that flows and makes sense!
Jennifer
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
he just threw it at me so it was already in my possession therefore the
consequence is still logical.I do not like balls that are thrown at me
in anger and my action would be to put this ball outside so it doesn't
hit me again.
I see your point and position. In my 4 year old - I know he is aware of
the consequences of a thrown-in-anger ball. He KNOWS that hurts and if
he just threw it out of anger, the ball would be put outside, "where it
won't hurt me again." And then we'd sit and talk. And discuss
rationally: 1) what is bothering him; 2) a solution for what is
bothering him; and 3) what actions he can take next time his feelings
are in this realm of emotions.and what actions he would choose to not do
again.
If this scenario happened at my home, what I mentioned about would occur
- he wouldn't be punished for throwing the ball in anger or hitting or
hurting me. He wouldn't be grounded from the ball. It would be outside
should he want to play with it again.
Tracy
-----Original Message-----
From: jmcseals SEALS [mailto:jmcseals@...]
Sent: Monday, May 12, 2003 8:49 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: [Unschooling-dotcom] bad mommy moment
**I don't see anything I suggested as punishment - I see them as logical
consequences to his misbehavior - and the rewards are again based on the
system of earning the priviledge of something he would like to do.not a
gift or monetary or tangent thing as a reward. ***
Take throwing a ball at you for the example I'm giving here.....
When he throws the ball at you and you take it away from him, the
consequence of *your* action of removing the ball from his possesion is
that
*he* can't play with it. He hasn't learned anything other than the fact
that you are bigger and better at taking things away. He needs to
understand that throwing a ball at someone hurts. *His* consequence of
his
actions is seeing you hurt. If you offer a safe alternative to his
reason
for throwing the ball and model safe ball throwing for him and with him,
his
reward is learning that he can learn peaceful outlets for his emotions
and
safe ball playing while still feeling peace with mom. He trusts that
you
love him and respect his feelings and will help him resolve his
mistakes.
Taking the ball away doesn't resolve the fact that he hit you with the
ball.
It only resolves the fact that he won't get to do it again...for the
moment.
I hope that flows and makes sense!
Jennifer
_________________________________________________________________
Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Tracy and Gilbert Valdez
If he acts negatively and argues about getting ready to go to younger
brother's play date.and he's been given choices of other material to
work/play on while there, offered to play with him there myself, and all
the other things that the mom said she tried to do to make this a fun
outing. AND the 7 year old is still acting up and saying he is NOT going
and making it a difficult time for me as the mom and the other child to
go to this play date, then he is using up all my energy that I would
need to help him make his play date at his choosing later on. I
naturally wouldn't want to make the effort for his play date a happy
occurrence if he chooses to make his brother's a wretched affair.
The reward for attending a brother's play date without making it a
horrid hassle? If I HAVE to label it a reward - then the reward would be
that I as the now unhassled mom would love to make the effort it took to
make his choice of a play date with his friend's a festive affair.
Tracy
-----Original Message-----
From: SandraDodd@... [mailto:SandraDodd@...]
Sent: Monday, May 12, 2003 9:04 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] bad mommy moment
In a message dated 5/12/03 7:27:15 PM, gtvaldez@... writes:
<< I don't see anything I suggested as punishment - I see them as
logical
consequences to his misbehavior - >>
Same thing.
Natural consequences are things that happen naturally.
"Logical consequence" is a fancified name for "punishment."
<< and the rewards are again based on the
system of earning the priviledge of something he would like to do>>
Like what?
Sandra
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
brother's play date.and he's been given choices of other material to
work/play on while there, offered to play with him there myself, and all
the other things that the mom said she tried to do to make this a fun
outing. AND the 7 year old is still acting up and saying he is NOT going
and making it a difficult time for me as the mom and the other child to
go to this play date, then he is using up all my energy that I would
need to help him make his play date at his choosing later on. I
naturally wouldn't want to make the effort for his play date a happy
occurrence if he chooses to make his brother's a wretched affair.
The reward for attending a brother's play date without making it a
horrid hassle? If I HAVE to label it a reward - then the reward would be
that I as the now unhassled mom would love to make the effort it took to
make his choice of a play date with his friend's a festive affair.
Tracy
-----Original Message-----
From: SandraDodd@... [mailto:SandraDodd@...]
Sent: Monday, May 12, 2003 9:04 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] bad mommy moment
In a message dated 5/12/03 7:27:15 PM, gtvaldez@... writes:
<< I don't see anything I suggested as punishment - I see them as
logical
consequences to his misbehavior - >>
Same thing.
Natural consequences are things that happen naturally.
"Logical consequence" is a fancified name for "punishment."
<< and the rewards are again based on the
system of earning the priviledge of something he would like to do>>
Like what?
Sandra
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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Lincoln Lotus Mazda Mazda Truck Mercedes-Benz Mercury Mitsubishi
Nissan Nissan Truck Oldsmobile Plymouth Pontiac Porsche
Rolls-Royce Saab Saturn Subaru Suzuki Toyota Toyota Truck
Volkswagen Volvo
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/12/03 8:07:12 PM, gtvaldez@... writes:
<< An equal reversal and logical consequence would be that he
forfeits HIS time that would be spent with a friend that day. >>
This is conditioning. It's even out of style among psychologists.
It's for rat training, not for helping people grow happy and healthy.
If you think of children more as trees and less as bad rats, the best you can
do for them is provide good water and soil and keep the weeds away and let
the sun shine on them. Don't let cats scratch their bark up. Don't kick
them, and don't climb in them until they're big and strong.
If your son's development into a bright, happy and compassionate person
becomes your primary goal, you will see that playing with his friend might be
the best time of his whole week, and maybe the time when he learns the most
and has the best chance to practice his interpersonal skills. Taking that
time away from him could cause some real loss, and some true resentment which
will NOT make it easier to get him to cooperate with you about the park next
time.
<<I still do
not see this as a punishment.he used his brother's time to go to the
play date by being negative and ugly. >>
Do you really think of your child as ugly?
Do you think of his honest expressions as negative?
<<So in exchange for mom spending
the effort to let him engage in his play date, he needs to forfeit it.>>
What do you forfeit when you make a bad judgment call as a mom then?
If you do something that causes them grief, how do you impose consequences on
yourself so you will do better next time?
<<If she did and the son was still
rebuking going, >>
BUZZWORD ALERT.
Rebuke?
As people rebuke Satan?
You don't "rebuke" going. You rebuke a person.
You can avoid going, or balk at going.
-=-at what point to you make him accountable for his
feelings and acting out about them? -=-
People are accountable for their actions. Moms more than anyone.
Accountable for his feelings?
Is he sinning in his heart?
-=I personally rarely need to delve into the mind of my
4 year old to get him to talk about his needs that aren't being met. I
AM NOT WITH EXPERIENCE in the older child's needs and frustrations yet
so I can only offer what I think I would do. -=-
Maybe there was a word missing there. I didn't get the second part.
What kids SAY they're unhappy about isn't always what they're really unhappy
about. Sometimes they say very little, and they DO need someone to help them
delve into what they're feeling and needing.
Sandra
<< An equal reversal and logical consequence would be that he
forfeits HIS time that would be spent with a friend that day. >>
This is conditioning. It's even out of style among psychologists.
It's for rat training, not for helping people grow happy and healthy.
If you think of children more as trees and less as bad rats, the best you can
do for them is provide good water and soil and keep the weeds away and let
the sun shine on them. Don't let cats scratch their bark up. Don't kick
them, and don't climb in them until they're big and strong.
If your son's development into a bright, happy and compassionate person
becomes your primary goal, you will see that playing with his friend might be
the best time of his whole week, and maybe the time when he learns the most
and has the best chance to practice his interpersonal skills. Taking that
time away from him could cause some real loss, and some true resentment which
will NOT make it easier to get him to cooperate with you about the park next
time.
<<I still do
not see this as a punishment.he used his brother's time to go to the
play date by being negative and ugly. >>
Do you really think of your child as ugly?
Do you think of his honest expressions as negative?
<<So in exchange for mom spending
the effort to let him engage in his play date, he needs to forfeit it.>>
What do you forfeit when you make a bad judgment call as a mom then?
If you do something that causes them grief, how do you impose consequences on
yourself so you will do better next time?
<<If she did and the son was still
rebuking going, >>
BUZZWORD ALERT.
Rebuke?
As people rebuke Satan?
You don't "rebuke" going. You rebuke a person.
You can avoid going, or balk at going.
-=-at what point to you make him accountable for his
feelings and acting out about them? -=-
People are accountable for their actions. Moms more than anyone.
Accountable for his feelings?
Is he sinning in his heart?
-=I personally rarely need to delve into the mind of my
4 year old to get him to talk about his needs that aren't being met. I
AM NOT WITH EXPERIENCE in the older child's needs and frustrations yet
so I can only offer what I think I would do. -=-
Maybe there was a word missing there. I didn't get the second part.
What kids SAY they're unhappy about isn't always what they're really unhappy
about. Sometimes they say very little, and they DO need someone to help them
delve into what they're feeling and needing.
Sandra
Tracy and Gilbert Valdez
I used the term "exactly" because I wanted to read an exact example - I
did NOT mean it "snarky" and I apologize if you read it as such. I wrote
I was inexperienced and wanted to read everyone's explanations.and
hence, the term "exactly" meaning it literally - an exact explanation of
specific examples. I did not join this list to harold the positiveness
of schooling.I joined to learn. Please don't be so defensive without
asking first the literal meaning behind the language.
This is a 7 year old child that was told he was going to a park so his
brother could get some socializing time in. He tells mom no, he's not
going and mom is at her wit's end because he is doing this more and
more. She said she already tried making things fun for him it was
wearing her thin. I ASSUME she's already tried to address the cause of
the behavior with him. Maybe I assumed too much. I, again, apologized
for that.
I expect my kids to be well behaved - meaning I want them to choose
behavior that is positive, helpful, considerate. If they choose to
misbehave, which is anything that isn't positive, helpful or
considerate, then they will "reap what they sow" - the logical
consequence of their actions. Not punishment in my eyes.
Tracy
-----Original Message-----
From: SandraDodd@... [mailto:SandraDodd@...]
Sent: Monday, May 12, 2003 9:16 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] bad mommy moment
In a message dated 5/12/03 7:40:36 PM, jmcseals@... writes:
<< ***And what exactly would the unschooling parent do to a willfully
misbehaving child?*** >>
"Exactly" makes the question seem snarky to me.
For me, I neither use the word "willfully" nor "misbehaving."
Schools and parents used to be advised and instructed how to break a
child's
will.
I do NOT want to "break my child's will."
"Willfully" means "because he wants to."
Why would a child want to do something mean or bad?
My kids don't.
It's not that they never did, it's that when they did we found better
ways,
together, for them to express their frustration or disappointment or
whatever.
Lots of parents punish children for behaving rationally to bad parental
behavior. It's a shame. It has gone on a long time, but any family
wanting
to stop can stop.
If a mom promises something and breaks her promise and the kids
understandably get angry or say something about it, how often are kids
punished instead of apologized to and appeased? How many parents
express
remorse for their own bad behavior toward their children, yet don't set
an
example of how to act when they've screwed up?
And "behaving" isn't the opposite of "misbehaving," except where
"behave" has
become shorthand for "act the way I would like for you to or you'll be
in
trouble."
Everyone is behaving all the time, every time they decide how to wipe
their
nose or where to sit. How can on "mis"behave? By not matching a
pre-conceived pattern decided before they were born?
""<< ***And what exactly would the unschooling parent do to a willfully
misbehaving child?*** >>""
Maybe the question should just be "How would you treat someone you
really
loved"?
I know it sounds irritating to people whose kids are older and who are
new to
this whole principle/respect business, who have lived by rules and
schedules,
but my kids don't misbehave. They're honest and helpful and
considerate.
It's not because they're afraid they'll get in trouble because they
don't.
It's because they choose to be honest and helpful and considerate,
because
they see the direct value of it and the immediate usefulness and
goodness of
it.
It didn't happen overnight, but it CAN happen. And if it can't happen
with a
kid who's belt-trained, or 13 and really defiant (I would defy mean
rules-wielding parents who didn't think much of me too), that does NOT
mean
it can't happen with families here whose kids are younger, who haven't
been
told that bedtime and obedience are what will get them into college
and/or
heaven.
Sandra
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
did NOT mean it "snarky" and I apologize if you read it as such. I wrote
I was inexperienced and wanted to read everyone's explanations.and
hence, the term "exactly" meaning it literally - an exact explanation of
specific examples. I did not join this list to harold the positiveness
of schooling.I joined to learn. Please don't be so defensive without
asking first the literal meaning behind the language.
This is a 7 year old child that was told he was going to a park so his
brother could get some socializing time in. He tells mom no, he's not
going and mom is at her wit's end because he is doing this more and
more. She said she already tried making things fun for him it was
wearing her thin. I ASSUME she's already tried to address the cause of
the behavior with him. Maybe I assumed too much. I, again, apologized
for that.
I expect my kids to be well behaved - meaning I want them to choose
behavior that is positive, helpful, considerate. If they choose to
misbehave, which is anything that isn't positive, helpful or
considerate, then they will "reap what they sow" - the logical
consequence of their actions. Not punishment in my eyes.
Tracy
-----Original Message-----
From: SandraDodd@... [mailto:SandraDodd@...]
Sent: Monday, May 12, 2003 9:16 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] bad mommy moment
In a message dated 5/12/03 7:40:36 PM, jmcseals@... writes:
<< ***And what exactly would the unschooling parent do to a willfully
misbehaving child?*** >>
"Exactly" makes the question seem snarky to me.
For me, I neither use the word "willfully" nor "misbehaving."
Schools and parents used to be advised and instructed how to break a
child's
will.
I do NOT want to "break my child's will."
"Willfully" means "because he wants to."
Why would a child want to do something mean or bad?
My kids don't.
It's not that they never did, it's that when they did we found better
ways,
together, for them to express their frustration or disappointment or
whatever.
Lots of parents punish children for behaving rationally to bad parental
behavior. It's a shame. It has gone on a long time, but any family
wanting
to stop can stop.
If a mom promises something and breaks her promise and the kids
understandably get angry or say something about it, how often are kids
punished instead of apologized to and appeased? How many parents
express
remorse for their own bad behavior toward their children, yet don't set
an
example of how to act when they've screwed up?
And "behaving" isn't the opposite of "misbehaving," except where
"behave" has
become shorthand for "act the way I would like for you to or you'll be
in
trouble."
Everyone is behaving all the time, every time they decide how to wipe
their
nose or where to sit. How can on "mis"behave? By not matching a
pre-conceived pattern decided before they were born?
""<< ***And what exactly would the unschooling parent do to a willfully
misbehaving child?*** >>""
Maybe the question should just be "How would you treat someone you
really
loved"?
I know it sounds irritating to people whose kids are older and who are
new to
this whole principle/respect business, who have lived by rules and
schedules,
but my kids don't misbehave. They're honest and helpful and
considerate.
It's not because they're afraid they'll get in trouble because they
don't.
It's because they choose to be honest and helpful and considerate,
because
they see the direct value of it and the immediate usefulness and
goodness of
it.
It didn't happen overnight, but it CAN happen. And if it can't happen
with a
kid who's belt-trained, or 13 and really defiant (I would defy mean
rules-wielding parents who didn't think much of me too), that does NOT
mean
it can't happen with families here whose kids are younger, who haven't
been
told that bedtime and obedience are what will get them into college
and/or
heaven.
Sandra
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[email protected]
In a message dated 5/12/2003 10:21:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, mina@...
writes:
like you said, it will always escalate to something more..."hmmm...what can I
get out of her this time???"
Nancy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
writes:
> I've been doing this and it seems like it is escalating. I've even paid himKinda sounds like a bribe to me anyhow. I hate bribes...they don't work, and
> money to go along with erands we have to run. I was bothered by it for a
> while, but frankly, I treat myself at moments like that. I just can't
> afford him anymore.
>
like you said, it will always escalate to something more..."hmmm...what can I
get out of her this time???"
Nancy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Tracy and Gilbert Valdez
How is it rat training - I don't understand that.
I said I thought his actions of choosing to react that was was
ugly.never said my child was ugly. And yes, if a child is speaking in an
ugly tone of voice and saying ugly things, then he is acting ugly.
An honest expression of anger or frustration is a positive action.
Continually choosing to speak ugly words to the mother each time an
errand needs to be run is a negative reaction. We should not have to
have the same argument each time an errand needs to be run.
I forfeit a lot - each time I make a mistake I have to own up to it. I
have apologized many times to my 2 year old and my 4 year old and my
husband and all the people I have wronged. I recognize my mistakes as
often as I can and make necessary adjustments to my surroundings and
attitude and thought processes to not make the mistake again.
Rebuking - so I choose the wrong wording here. It's called a mistake. I
will not make that mistake again - I see the logical consequence of an
ill-choosen word cause angst in others so I won't make that mistake a
second time. I will choose instead to look up the words I think I want
to use before using it. You were correct - the word I meant to use was
balk.
I do not let problems with my children go long enough to have to search
for the answers to behavior problems. I don't think my kids have any
problems with the way the choose to behave. They are sweet, thoughtful,
considerate, caring people and when they display a behavior that doesn't
seem happy or comfortable to them, we see what it is and work them
through it. I haven't hit a problem yet that we haven't been able to
clear up. My kids are bright, energetic, inquisitive and sweet.
My kids are 2 and 4 - I have not experienced a child of 7 years yet - so
the problems more associated with that age range are unfamiliar to me. I
was reiterating my inexperience with this age group.
Tracy
-----Original Message-----
From: SandraDodd@... [mailto:SandraDodd@...]
Sent: Monday, May 12, 2003 9:32 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] bad mommy moment
In a message dated 5/12/03 8:07:12 PM, gtvaldez@... writes:
<< An equal reversal and logical consequence would be that he
forfeits HIS time that would be spent with a friend that day. >>
This is conditioning. It's even out of style among psychologists.
It's for rat training, not for helping people grow happy and healthy.
If you think of children more as trees and less as bad rats, the best
you can
do for them is provide good water and soil and keep the weeds away and
let
the sun shine on them. Don't let cats scratch their bark up. Don't
kick
them, and don't climb in them until they're big and strong.
If your son's development into a bright, happy and compassionate person
becomes your primary goal, you will see that playing with his friend
might be
the best time of his whole week, and maybe the time when he learns the
most
and has the best chance to practice his interpersonal skills. Taking
that
time away from him could cause some real loss, and some true resentment
which
will NOT make it easier to get him to cooperate with you about the park
next
time.
<<I still do
not see this as a punishment.he used his brother's time to go to the
play date by being negative and ugly. >>
Do you really think of your child as ugly?
Do you think of his honest expressions as negative?
<<So in exchange for mom spending
the effort to let him engage in his play date, he needs to forfeit it.>>
What do you forfeit when you make a bad judgment call as a mom then?
If you do something that causes them grief, how do you impose
consequences on
yourself so you will do better next time?
<<If she did and the son was still
rebuking going, >>
BUZZWORD ALERT.
Rebuke?
As people rebuke Satan?
You don't "rebuke" going. You rebuke a person.
You can avoid going, or balk at going.
-=-at what point to you make him accountable for his
feelings and acting out about them? -=-
People are accountable for their actions. Moms more than anyone.
Accountable for his feelings?
Is he sinning in his heart?
-=I personally rarely need to delve into the mind of my
4 year old to get him to talk about his needs that aren't being met. I
AM NOT WITH EXPERIENCE in the older child's needs and frustrations yet
so I can only offer what I think I would do. -=-
Maybe there was a word missing there. I didn't get the second part.
What kids SAY they're unhappy about isn't always what they're really
unhappy
about. Sometimes they say very little, and they DO need someone to help
them
delve into what they're feeling and needing.
Sandra
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I said I thought his actions of choosing to react that was was
ugly.never said my child was ugly. And yes, if a child is speaking in an
ugly tone of voice and saying ugly things, then he is acting ugly.
An honest expression of anger or frustration is a positive action.
Continually choosing to speak ugly words to the mother each time an
errand needs to be run is a negative reaction. We should not have to
have the same argument each time an errand needs to be run.
I forfeit a lot - each time I make a mistake I have to own up to it. I
have apologized many times to my 2 year old and my 4 year old and my
husband and all the people I have wronged. I recognize my mistakes as
often as I can and make necessary adjustments to my surroundings and
attitude and thought processes to not make the mistake again.
Rebuking - so I choose the wrong wording here. It's called a mistake. I
will not make that mistake again - I see the logical consequence of an
ill-choosen word cause angst in others so I won't make that mistake a
second time. I will choose instead to look up the words I think I want
to use before using it. You were correct - the word I meant to use was
balk.
I do not let problems with my children go long enough to have to search
for the answers to behavior problems. I don't think my kids have any
problems with the way the choose to behave. They are sweet, thoughtful,
considerate, caring people and when they display a behavior that doesn't
seem happy or comfortable to them, we see what it is and work them
through it. I haven't hit a problem yet that we haven't been able to
clear up. My kids are bright, energetic, inquisitive and sweet.
My kids are 2 and 4 - I have not experienced a child of 7 years yet - so
the problems more associated with that age range are unfamiliar to me. I
was reiterating my inexperience with this age group.
Tracy
-----Original Message-----
From: SandraDodd@... [mailto:SandraDodd@...]
Sent: Monday, May 12, 2003 9:32 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] bad mommy moment
In a message dated 5/12/03 8:07:12 PM, gtvaldez@... writes:
<< An equal reversal and logical consequence would be that he
forfeits HIS time that would be spent with a friend that day. >>
This is conditioning. It's even out of style among psychologists.
It's for rat training, not for helping people grow happy and healthy.
If you think of children more as trees and less as bad rats, the best
you can
do for them is provide good water and soil and keep the weeds away and
let
the sun shine on them. Don't let cats scratch their bark up. Don't
kick
them, and don't climb in them until they're big and strong.
If your son's development into a bright, happy and compassionate person
becomes your primary goal, you will see that playing with his friend
might be
the best time of his whole week, and maybe the time when he learns the
most
and has the best chance to practice his interpersonal skills. Taking
that
time away from him could cause some real loss, and some true resentment
which
will NOT make it easier to get him to cooperate with you about the park
next
time.
<<I still do
not see this as a punishment.he used his brother's time to go to the
play date by being negative and ugly. >>
Do you really think of your child as ugly?
Do you think of his honest expressions as negative?
<<So in exchange for mom spending
the effort to let him engage in his play date, he needs to forfeit it.>>
What do you forfeit when you make a bad judgment call as a mom then?
If you do something that causes them grief, how do you impose
consequences on
yourself so you will do better next time?
<<If she did and the son was still
rebuking going, >>
BUZZWORD ALERT.
Rebuke?
As people rebuke Satan?
You don't "rebuke" going. You rebuke a person.
You can avoid going, or balk at going.
-=-at what point to you make him accountable for his
feelings and acting out about them? -=-
People are accountable for their actions. Moms more than anyone.
Accountable for his feelings?
Is he sinning in his heart?
-=I personally rarely need to delve into the mind of my
4 year old to get him to talk about his needs that aren't being met. I
AM NOT WITH EXPERIENCE in the older child's needs and frustrations yet
so I can only offer what I think I would do. -=-
Maybe there was a word missing there. I didn't get the second part.
What kids SAY they're unhappy about isn't always what they're really
unhappy
about. Sometimes they say very little, and they DO need someone to help
them
delve into what they're feeling and needing.
Sandra
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[email protected]
In a message dated 5/12/03 8:25:45 PM, gtvaldez@... writes:
<< AND the 7 year old is still acting up and saying he is NOT going
and making it a difficult time for me as the mom and the other child to
go to this play date, then he is using up all my energy that I would
need to help him make his play date at his choosing later on. >>
But the point is if you're not figuring WHY the 7 year old is unhappy and
"acting" the way he is acting, you're part of the problem. Depriving him is
not going to be a solution. Then he'll be unhappy AND deprived.
He's not "using up your energy." You're not apportioning your energy wisely.
<<I
naturally wouldn't want to make the effort for his play date a happy
occurrence if he chooses to make his brother's a wretched affair. >>
This doesn't sound like love. It sounds like resentment and control.
"A wretched affair"?
I have never thought such words about my children and their lives, let alone
written them down for othes.
This is some serious negativity you have going in your visions of children's
motives and actions.
<<I naturally wouldn't want to make the effort for his play date a happy
occurrence ...>>
I don't know if I "naturally" want to make effort for my kids. I had
children by choice. I want to do a better job at parenting than my mom did.
I want to do the best I can do for these people, because what I give them
they will pass on to others. It's an investment in the future, and in the
world around us. If I give them pissiness, they will be pissy. If I give
them resentment, they will be resentful. If I give them patience, they will
be patient. I see it work. They ARE patient. They are thoughtful. They're
compassionate.
Why I want to make an effort to make ALL their days happy occurrences is
because their happiness and their peace and their comfort is very high on my
list of priorities. And when I had a broken leg, they were pretty
considerate of me. And when I'm just tired, they'll get me things, and do
things for me. Because when they're just tired, I do for them, willingly.
-=-<<I
naturally wouldn't want to make the effort for his play date a happy
occurrence if he chooses to make his brother's a wretched affair. >>-=-
You're an adult and he's seven. Are you expecting him to have your level of
understanding, or are you acting on a seven year old's level?
Just as a seven year old should have more responsibility in a situation with
a two year old, and more understanding, an adult should have more
responsibility and understanding than a seven year old.
Sandra
<< AND the 7 year old is still acting up and saying he is NOT going
and making it a difficult time for me as the mom and the other child to
go to this play date, then he is using up all my energy that I would
need to help him make his play date at his choosing later on. >>
But the point is if you're not figuring WHY the 7 year old is unhappy and
"acting" the way he is acting, you're part of the problem. Depriving him is
not going to be a solution. Then he'll be unhappy AND deprived.
He's not "using up your energy." You're not apportioning your energy wisely.
<<I
naturally wouldn't want to make the effort for his play date a happy
occurrence if he chooses to make his brother's a wretched affair. >>
This doesn't sound like love. It sounds like resentment and control.
"A wretched affair"?
I have never thought such words about my children and their lives, let alone
written them down for othes.
This is some serious negativity you have going in your visions of children's
motives and actions.
<<I naturally wouldn't want to make the effort for his play date a happy
occurrence ...>>
I don't know if I "naturally" want to make effort for my kids. I had
children by choice. I want to do a better job at parenting than my mom did.
I want to do the best I can do for these people, because what I give them
they will pass on to others. It's an investment in the future, and in the
world around us. If I give them pissiness, they will be pissy. If I give
them resentment, they will be resentful. If I give them patience, they will
be patient. I see it work. They ARE patient. They are thoughtful. They're
compassionate.
Why I want to make an effort to make ALL their days happy occurrences is
because their happiness and their peace and their comfort is very high on my
list of priorities. And when I had a broken leg, they were pretty
considerate of me. And when I'm just tired, they'll get me things, and do
things for me. Because when they're just tired, I do for them, willingly.
-=-<<I
naturally wouldn't want to make the effort for his play date a happy
occurrence if he chooses to make his brother's a wretched affair. >>-=-
You're an adult and he's seven. Are you expecting him to have your level of
understanding, or are you acting on a seven year old's level?
Just as a seven year old should have more responsibility in a situation with
a two year old, and more understanding, an adult should have more
responsibility and understanding than a seven year old.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/12/03 8:40:30 PM, gtvaldez@... writes:
<< Please don't be so defensive without
asking first the literal meaning behind the language. >>
I don't need to ask the literal meaning behind English. I know it pretty
well.
What exactly did you think I meant?
That's different from "What did you think I meant?"
It's different in tone.
"Exactly" what unschoolers would do is not a question anyone can answer.
An example of what an unschooler MIGHT do, hundreds of people could answer.
<<I expect my kids to be well behaved>>
I expect mine to be kids, but we have always talked through things and they
don't feel ignored or managed or controlled, and yet they are positive,
helpful, and considerate. They act better than other kids their age. That's
not just my opinion. Other kids their age say so. Adults say so.
<< If they choose to
misbehave, which is anything that isn't positive, helpful or
considerate, then they will "reap what they sow" - >>
This is not loving or friendly. This is vengeful.
Children don't "choose" to misbehave in many cases, especially the little
ones. They are frustrated and end up doing things they regret, or losing
control of their emotions. That's not choice, that's often a direct result
of a parent not paying attention to their needs for attention, food, warmth,
touch, rest, peace.
Sandra
<< Please don't be so defensive without
asking first the literal meaning behind the language. >>
I don't need to ask the literal meaning behind English. I know it pretty
well.
What exactly did you think I meant?
That's different from "What did you think I meant?"
It's different in tone.
"Exactly" what unschoolers would do is not a question anyone can answer.
An example of what an unschooler MIGHT do, hundreds of people could answer.
<<I expect my kids to be well behaved>>
I expect mine to be kids, but we have always talked through things and they
don't feel ignored or managed or controlled, and yet they are positive,
helpful, and considerate. They act better than other kids their age. That's
not just my opinion. Other kids their age say so. Adults say so.
<< If they choose to
misbehave, which is anything that isn't positive, helpful or
considerate, then they will "reap what they sow" - >>
This is not loving or friendly. This is vengeful.
Children don't "choose" to misbehave in many cases, especially the little
ones. They are frustrated and end up doing things they regret, or losing
control of their emotions. That's not choice, that's often a direct result
of a parent not paying attention to their needs for attention, food, warmth,
touch, rest, peace.
Sandra
jmcseals SEALS
***Negative choices are rewarded with negative
consequences. Not punishment but logical consequences.***
Wow. That's a pretty powerful statement filled with mistrust and
misunderstanding. How is taking away a ball from a child for throwing it at
somone a reward? What is being rewarded? It is a logical consequence in a
punishing frame of mind.
***In the problem with the child that is behaving in a negative manner to
things that a family must do to survive and thrive.he is making the time
for his sibling to go to the park an unmanageable time for the entire
family. An equal reversal and logical consequence would be that he
forfeits HIS time that would be spent with a friend that day.***
Two wrongs don't make it right. Especially for the child. In this case, he
is being rewarded for his negative behavior. It creates the possibility of
an endless cycle.....He makes life miserable for the family, so Mom or Dad
makes his life miserable. Well, next time he'll make SURE he is even worse
to get you back. I've been there. I have seven children. It happens.
When children need attention and cannot find positive ways to get it, they
will seek out negative behaviors that are "rewarded" with increased
attention. Even if it is negative.
***I still do not see this as a punishment.he used his brother's time to go
to the
play date by being negative and ugly. So in exchange for mom spending
the effort to let him engage in his play date, he needs to forfeit it.***
I'm not following the logic in this. Isn't the desired result a happy,
trusting child??? Or is it a mother who 'got even'??
***I would have thought that all the things suggested by you below would
have already been done.the mother already said, "Lately it seems like
I'm spending a lot of time making things that have to be done fun for
him." I took this to mean she had already tried the negotiating of
terms of play (your suggestion) and the well, find something to take
with you, and the other logical things. If she did and the son was still
rebuking going, at what point to you make him accountable for his
feelings and acting out about them? ***
In my own experience, a child who does not respond to the suggestions I
mentioned is a child who *needs* positive attention, patience and
understanding. Children *want* to please their parents and be happy. At
that point, I would be looking at *my* past and present behaviors and how
they are affecting my child. I would look for inconsistancy and negativity
in my actions. Am I acting in peaceful trusting and loving ways, or am I
expecting and modeling negative, distrusting, and unloving behaviors. It's
not an easy thing to confront but it often reveals so much if we are open
and honest with ourselves.
Jennifer
_________________________________________________________________
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
consequences. Not punishment but logical consequences.***
Wow. That's a pretty powerful statement filled with mistrust and
misunderstanding. How is taking away a ball from a child for throwing it at
somone a reward? What is being rewarded? It is a logical consequence in a
punishing frame of mind.
***In the problem with the child that is behaving in a negative manner to
things that a family must do to survive and thrive.he is making the time
for his sibling to go to the park an unmanageable time for the entire
family. An equal reversal and logical consequence would be that he
forfeits HIS time that would be spent with a friend that day.***
Two wrongs don't make it right. Especially for the child. In this case, he
is being rewarded for his negative behavior. It creates the possibility of
an endless cycle.....He makes life miserable for the family, so Mom or Dad
makes his life miserable. Well, next time he'll make SURE he is even worse
to get you back. I've been there. I have seven children. It happens.
When children need attention and cannot find positive ways to get it, they
will seek out negative behaviors that are "rewarded" with increased
attention. Even if it is negative.
***I still do not see this as a punishment.he used his brother's time to go
to the
play date by being negative and ugly. So in exchange for mom spending
the effort to let him engage in his play date, he needs to forfeit it.***
I'm not following the logic in this. Isn't the desired result a happy,
trusting child??? Or is it a mother who 'got even'??
***I would have thought that all the things suggested by you below would
have already been done.the mother already said, "Lately it seems like
I'm spending a lot of time making things that have to be done fun for
him." I took this to mean she had already tried the negotiating of
terms of play (your suggestion) and the well, find something to take
with you, and the other logical things. If she did and the son was still
rebuking going, at what point to you make him accountable for his
feelings and acting out about them? ***
In my own experience, a child who does not respond to the suggestions I
mentioned is a child who *needs* positive attention, patience and
understanding. Children *want* to please their parents and be happy. At
that point, I would be looking at *my* past and present behaviors and how
they are affecting my child. I would look for inconsistancy and negativity
in my actions. Am I acting in peaceful trusting and loving ways, or am I
expecting and modeling negative, distrusting, and unloving behaviors. It's
not an easy thing to confront but it often reveals so much if we are open
and honest with ourselves.
Jennifer
_________________________________________________________________
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
jmcseals SEALS
**I've been doing this and it seems like it is escalating. I've even paid
him
money to go along with erands we have to run. I was bothered by it for a
while, but frankly, I treat myself at moments like that. I just can't
afford him anymore.***
LOL! (whispering kindly) maybe that's the problem. Money makes us all
greedy at times. He's probably expecting a raise now. <bg> Not to pick on
you but this is a perfect example of how rewards fail.
***> He may not like the option still, but at least he can now
do it. I've pointed out that I've trucked along with him on things I didn't
want to do, just so he could do them, too. But, true as that is, when I
bring it up at moments like that it seems like guilt.***
You hit the nail on the head. Naturally, we feel guilty when we see that
our previous ways don't work. The key is to let go of the guilt so you can
move on to better days. It takes time to break old habits. For you and
him. Give yourself time. Breath. Rub your bloomin' belly, literally
<BWG>! And give HIM time, patience and do everything in your power to be
understanding. This will pass and your efforts will be rewarded in the most
beautiful yet intangible ways. A happy, peaceful, cooperative little boy!!
Jennifer
_________________________________________________________________
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
him
money to go along with erands we have to run. I was bothered by it for a
while, but frankly, I treat myself at moments like that. I just can't
afford him anymore.***
LOL! (whispering kindly) maybe that's the problem. Money makes us all
greedy at times. He's probably expecting a raise now. <bg> Not to pick on
you but this is a perfect example of how rewards fail.
***> He may not like the option still, but at least he can now
>trust that Mom cares about his needs and wants and will try to accomodateI honestly HAVE been working on this. I just don't like the way I sometimes
>him while still following through with the task at hand.
do it. I've pointed out that I've trucked along with him on things I didn't
want to do, just so he could do them, too. But, true as that is, when I
bring it up at moments like that it seems like guilt.***
You hit the nail on the head. Naturally, we feel guilty when we see that
our previous ways don't work. The key is to let go of the guilt so you can
move on to better days. It takes time to break old habits. For you and
him. Give yourself time. Breath. Rub your bloomin' belly, literally
<BWG>! And give HIM time, patience and do everything in your power to be
understanding. This will pass and your efforts will be rewarded in the most
beautiful yet intangible ways. A happy, peaceful, cooperative little boy!!
Jennifer
_________________________________________________________________
Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
jmcseals SEALS
Again, this appears to be about you and your energy and comfort levels. Not
about addressing your sons and his needs. To truly live and understand
peaceful, positive, gentle parenting, you need to look at what you are
trying to achieve with this thought/action process. What you have described
below is punishment. He cannot use up your energy. You choose to let the
situation escalate to the point that peace is denied in favor of 'winning'.
If the goal is a peaceful child, then the battles have to stop. As the
adult, that process would naturally begin with you and gradually reflect in
your child.
Jennifer
If he acts negatively and argues about getting ready to go to younger
brother's play date.and he's been given choices of other material to
work/play on while there, offered to play with him there myself, and all
the other things that the mom said she tried to do to make this a fun
outing. AND the 7 year old is still acting up and saying he is NOT going
and making it a difficult time for me as the mom and the other child to
go to this play date, then he is using up all my energy that I would
need to help him make his play date at his choosing later on. I
naturally wouldn't want to make the effort for his play date a happy
occurrence if he chooses to make his brother's a wretched affair.
The reward for attending a brother's play date without making it a
horrid hassle? If I HAVE to label it a reward - then the reward would be
that I as the now unhassled mom would love to make the effort it took to
make his choice of a play date with his friend's a festive affair.
Tracy
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
about addressing your sons and his needs. To truly live and understand
peaceful, positive, gentle parenting, you need to look at what you are
trying to achieve with this thought/action process. What you have described
below is punishment. He cannot use up your energy. You choose to let the
situation escalate to the point that peace is denied in favor of 'winning'.
If the goal is a peaceful child, then the battles have to stop. As the
adult, that process would naturally begin with you and gradually reflect in
your child.
Jennifer
If he acts negatively and argues about getting ready to go to younger
brother's play date.and he's been given choices of other material to
work/play on while there, offered to play with him there myself, and all
the other things that the mom said she tried to do to make this a fun
outing. AND the 7 year old is still acting up and saying he is NOT going
and making it a difficult time for me as the mom and the other child to
go to this play date, then he is using up all my energy that I would
need to help him make his play date at his choosing later on. I
naturally wouldn't want to make the effort for his play date a happy
occurrence if he chooses to make his brother's a wretched affair.
The reward for attending a brother's play date without making it a
horrid hassle? If I HAVE to label it a reward - then the reward would be
that I as the now unhassled mom would love to make the effort it took to
make his choice of a play date with his friend's a festive affair.
Tracy
_________________________________________________________________
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Deborah Lewis
***I told him that there was a local homeschooling for little kids. That
the
kids would be from his bother's age (2) up to his age (7) and it would be
at
a playground.
His response? "I'm not going." ***
My first thought was, was this play date so important to the two year old
that it was worth all this pain and guilt?
My second thought was, it's a very bad idea to tell kids there are things
in life they have to do even if they don't want to. Lot's of really
bad people have done lots of really bad things to kids because kids
believed stuff like this.
It's ok to be considerate of a seven year old.<g> He's not trying to
take advantage of you. Kids don't do that stuff unless it's been
demonstrated to them. Your patience with and consideration for him
will be what encourages him to have consideration of others.
My friend was here yesterday with her seven year old and I had forgotten
how little and sweet seven is. Maybe because you have a two year old
seven looks pretty big to you. From here, seven is little.<g>
Would it help to tell him your plan of action the day before and let him
get used to the idea? Dylan never liked to have things sprung on him.
And with a few hours to talk it over and answer his questions about how
much time it will take, etc, maybe you can make arrangements to fit in
something he'd like to do too.
It sounds like you're doing that, but maybe more time to hash it over
would help.
Sometimes a snuggly night and soft apologies can get rid of those bad
moments.
Deb L
the
kids would be from his bother's age (2) up to his age (7) and it would be
at
a playground.
His response? "I'm not going." ***
My first thought was, was this play date so important to the two year old
that it was worth all this pain and guilt?
My second thought was, it's a very bad idea to tell kids there are things
in life they have to do even if they don't want to. Lot's of really
bad people have done lots of really bad things to kids because kids
believed stuff like this.
It's ok to be considerate of a seven year old.<g> He's not trying to
take advantage of you. Kids don't do that stuff unless it's been
demonstrated to them. Your patience with and consideration for him
will be what encourages him to have consideration of others.
My friend was here yesterday with her seven year old and I had forgotten
how little and sweet seven is. Maybe because you have a two year old
seven looks pretty big to you. From here, seven is little.<g>
Would it help to tell him your plan of action the day before and let him
get used to the idea? Dylan never liked to have things sprung on him.
And with a few hours to talk it over and answer his questions about how
much time it will take, etc, maybe you can make arrangements to fit in
something he'd like to do too.
It sounds like you're doing that, but maybe more time to hash it over
would help.
Sometimes a snuggly night and soft apologies can get rid of those bad
moments.
Deb L
Mary
From: "Tracy and Gilbert Valdez" <gtvaldez@...>
<<If my child willfully misbehaves because he needs to attend a trip to a
park so his sibling
can enjoy some bonding time, and that choice of his misbehavior causes
him to lose his time to play at his friend's later on.how does that
build mistrust?>>
This one kind of caught my attention. First of all, the child doesn't "need"
to attend a trip to the park. He doesn't need it or want it. You (the
parent) need him to go to make things smoother for you. (hypothetical here)
And the misbehaving part, well the term gets me. He's not trying to be bad,
he just doesn't want to be there! He's miserable before he even gets there
and making him go makes it worse if there's no compromise or communication.
Then making him miss a play date with a friend later has nothing to do with
the parent making him go someplace he didn't want to go and then punish him
for showing how upset he was to be there. It's not at all like the
consequence of being mean to a friend and having that friend not want to
play with him later because of it. He's not trusting you to listen to him
when he expresses his needs because yours or someone else's are more
important. And he's also not trusting that you will help him figure out a
solution so you can all be happy.
I had a day at the water park today with my friend and her son. We plan on
going every week until school lets out. Last time we went, Alyssa was not
having fun after a half hour. She loves the pool but not water slides and
sprinklers and shallow water. She wanted to go home. The other 2 didn't. I
made up my mind that I would do whatever I had to so that everyone would end
up happy. It ended up that I got in touch with my mom and she came to pick
up the baby. Alyssa was happy to leave and spend time at home with grandma
and the other two were happy to stay. Then after a couple of hours, Sierra
wanted to leave and Joseph didn't. So we made an agreement, Joseph would
decide this time when to leave and next time Sierra would decide. So today,
Joseph wanted to leave first but also knew he agreed to the decision last
time around. He knew Sierra stayed longer than she wanted to for him. So he
walked around and then sat and played alone in the shade and then sat with
me and talked for awhile. He waited patiently for Sierra like she had the
week before for him. I then said next time we would stay until closing
because that's what I wanted to do. I know one of them, probably both will
enjoy that. But the decision is off both of them for that one. They both
mentioned bringing their gameboys so that if one gets tired of water play,
they still have something to do. And in all honesty, if both get tired, we
would leave before closing. It's not like I really need to be there until
5:00!!!
I must also mention now that the baby stays home when we go and has no
problem doing so. This all went very smoothly and certainly didn't take just
one time to get it that way. A lot of communicating from when they were
little brings us to this time and problem solving now. They don't see it as
one "having" to stay but as cutting a deal with each other. A lot of deals
go on here with them on a daily basis. They figure it out for themselves and
it works well. Sometimes they need some help, most times they don't.
On a last note, one mom that was going to meet us there today cancelled. She
wrote me late Sunday night that her 10 year old son did something and she
grounded him for today. I can guarantee you that whatever he did had nothing
to do with the impending day at the water park. And his mother also lamented
how his grounding punished her as she really wanted to join us. I mean
really, what's the point and what did he learn?
And a PS that I know I am very fortunate to have my mom here and available
and very willing to help out when I need her. Some aren't so lucky. I was
also willing to call my husband or leave with the baby until my oldest was
home and could watch her and then I would go back to the park. Not the
easiest thing for me, but certainly the best for all the kids. And that's
really why I went to the park in the first place, for them.
Mary B
<<If my child willfully misbehaves because he needs to attend a trip to a
park so his sibling
can enjoy some bonding time, and that choice of his misbehavior causes
him to lose his time to play at his friend's later on.how does that
build mistrust?>>
This one kind of caught my attention. First of all, the child doesn't "need"
to attend a trip to the park. He doesn't need it or want it. You (the
parent) need him to go to make things smoother for you. (hypothetical here)
And the misbehaving part, well the term gets me. He's not trying to be bad,
he just doesn't want to be there! He's miserable before he even gets there
and making him go makes it worse if there's no compromise or communication.
Then making him miss a play date with a friend later has nothing to do with
the parent making him go someplace he didn't want to go and then punish him
for showing how upset he was to be there. It's not at all like the
consequence of being mean to a friend and having that friend not want to
play with him later because of it. He's not trusting you to listen to him
when he expresses his needs because yours or someone else's are more
important. And he's also not trusting that you will help him figure out a
solution so you can all be happy.
I had a day at the water park today with my friend and her son. We plan on
going every week until school lets out. Last time we went, Alyssa was not
having fun after a half hour. She loves the pool but not water slides and
sprinklers and shallow water. She wanted to go home. The other 2 didn't. I
made up my mind that I would do whatever I had to so that everyone would end
up happy. It ended up that I got in touch with my mom and she came to pick
up the baby. Alyssa was happy to leave and spend time at home with grandma
and the other two were happy to stay. Then after a couple of hours, Sierra
wanted to leave and Joseph didn't. So we made an agreement, Joseph would
decide this time when to leave and next time Sierra would decide. So today,
Joseph wanted to leave first but also knew he agreed to the decision last
time around. He knew Sierra stayed longer than she wanted to for him. So he
walked around and then sat and played alone in the shade and then sat with
me and talked for awhile. He waited patiently for Sierra like she had the
week before for him. I then said next time we would stay until closing
because that's what I wanted to do. I know one of them, probably both will
enjoy that. But the decision is off both of them for that one. They both
mentioned bringing their gameboys so that if one gets tired of water play,
they still have something to do. And in all honesty, if both get tired, we
would leave before closing. It's not like I really need to be there until
5:00!!!
I must also mention now that the baby stays home when we go and has no
problem doing so. This all went very smoothly and certainly didn't take just
one time to get it that way. A lot of communicating from when they were
little brings us to this time and problem solving now. They don't see it as
one "having" to stay but as cutting a deal with each other. A lot of deals
go on here with them on a daily basis. They figure it out for themselves and
it works well. Sometimes they need some help, most times they don't.
On a last note, one mom that was going to meet us there today cancelled. She
wrote me late Sunday night that her 10 year old son did something and she
grounded him for today. I can guarantee you that whatever he did had nothing
to do with the impending day at the water park. And his mother also lamented
how his grounding punished her as she really wanted to join us. I mean
really, what's the point and what did he learn?
And a PS that I know I am very fortunate to have my mom here and available
and very willing to help out when I need her. Some aren't so lucky. I was
also willing to call my husband or leave with the baby until my oldest was
home and could watch her and then I would go back to the park. Not the
easiest thing for me, but certainly the best for all the kids. And that's
really why I went to the park in the first place, for them.
Mary B
Tracy and Gilbert Valdez
Thank you, Mary - for a most informative point of view. I feel a little
like I am getting attacked for requesting more information, however you
explained your point of view without that feeling or tone in your email
and I most sincerely enjoyed reading your post.
And I learned more of the unschooling technique - which was the point of
joining in the first place.
Thanks again,
Tracy
-----Original Message-----
From: Mary [mailto:mummy124@...]
Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2003 12:37 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] bad mommy moment
From: "Tracy and Gilbert Valdez" <gtvaldez@...>
<<If my child willfully misbehaves because he needs to attend a trip to
a
park so his sibling
can enjoy some bonding time, and that choice of his misbehavior causes
him to lose his time to play at his friend's later on.how does that
build mistrust?>>
This one kind of caught my attention. First of all, the child doesn't
"need"
to attend a trip to the park. He doesn't need it or want it. You (the
parent) need him to go to make things smoother for you. (hypothetical
here)
And the misbehaving part, well the term gets me. He's not trying to be
bad,
he just doesn't want to be there! He's miserable before he even gets
there
and making him go makes it worse if there's no compromise or
communication.
Then making him miss a play date with a friend later has nothing to do
with
the parent making him go someplace he didn't want to go and then punish
him
for showing how upset he was to be there. It's not at all like the
consequence of being mean to a friend and having that friend not want to
play with him later because of it. He's not trusting you to listen to
him
when he expresses his needs because yours or someone else's are more
important. And he's also not trusting that you will help him figure out
a
solution so you can all be happy.
I had a day at the water park today with my friend and her son. We plan
on
going every week until school lets out. Last time we went, Alyssa was
not
having fun after a half hour. She loves the pool but not water slides
and
sprinklers and shallow water. She wanted to go home. The other 2 didn't.
I
made up my mind that I would do whatever I had to so that everyone would
end
up happy. It ended up that I got in touch with my mom and she came to
pick
up the baby. Alyssa was happy to leave and spend time at home with
grandma
and the other two were happy to stay. Then after a couple of hours,
Sierra
wanted to leave and Joseph didn't. So we made an agreement, Joseph would
decide this time when to leave and next time Sierra would decide. So
today,
Joseph wanted to leave first but also knew he agreed to the decision
last
time around. He knew Sierra stayed longer than she wanted to for him. So
he
walked around and then sat and played alone in the shade and then sat
with
me and talked for awhile. He waited patiently for Sierra like she had
the
week before for him. I then said next time we would stay until closing
because that's what I wanted to do. I know one of them, probably both
will
enjoy that. But the decision is off both of them for that one. They both
mentioned bringing their gameboys so that if one gets tired of water
play,
they still have something to do. And in all honesty, if both get tired,
we
would leave before closing. It's not like I really need to be there
until
5:00!!!
I must also mention now that the baby stays home when we go and has no
problem doing so. This all went very smoothly and certainly didn't take
just
one time to get it that way. A lot of communicating from when they were
little brings us to this time and problem solving now. They don't see it
as
one "having" to stay but as cutting a deal with each other. A lot of
deals
go on here with them on a daily basis. They figure it out for themselves
and
it works well. Sometimes they need some help, most times they don't.
On a last note, one mom that was going to meet us there today cancelled.
She
wrote me late Sunday night that her 10 year old son did something and
she
grounded him for today. I can guarantee you that whatever he did had
nothing
to do with the impending day at the water park. And his mother also
lamented
how his grounding punished her as she really wanted to join us. I mean
really, what's the point and what did he learn?
And a PS that I know I am very fortunate to have my mom here and
available
and very willing to help out when I need her. Some aren't so lucky. I
was
also willing to call my husband or leave with the baby until my oldest
was
home and could watch her and then I would go back to the park. Not the
easiest thing for me, but certainly the best for all the kids. And
that's
really why I went to the park in the first place, for them.
Mary B
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
like I am getting attacked for requesting more information, however you
explained your point of view without that feeling or tone in your email
and I most sincerely enjoyed reading your post.
And I learned more of the unschooling technique - which was the point of
joining in the first place.
Thanks again,
Tracy
-----Original Message-----
From: Mary [mailto:mummy124@...]
Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2003 12:37 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] bad mommy moment
From: "Tracy and Gilbert Valdez" <gtvaldez@...>
<<If my child willfully misbehaves because he needs to attend a trip to
a
park so his sibling
can enjoy some bonding time, and that choice of his misbehavior causes
him to lose his time to play at his friend's later on.how does that
build mistrust?>>
This one kind of caught my attention. First of all, the child doesn't
"need"
to attend a trip to the park. He doesn't need it or want it. You (the
parent) need him to go to make things smoother for you. (hypothetical
here)
And the misbehaving part, well the term gets me. He's not trying to be
bad,
he just doesn't want to be there! He's miserable before he even gets
there
and making him go makes it worse if there's no compromise or
communication.
Then making him miss a play date with a friend later has nothing to do
with
the parent making him go someplace he didn't want to go and then punish
him
for showing how upset he was to be there. It's not at all like the
consequence of being mean to a friend and having that friend not want to
play with him later because of it. He's not trusting you to listen to
him
when he expresses his needs because yours or someone else's are more
important. And he's also not trusting that you will help him figure out
a
solution so you can all be happy.
I had a day at the water park today with my friend and her son. We plan
on
going every week until school lets out. Last time we went, Alyssa was
not
having fun after a half hour. She loves the pool but not water slides
and
sprinklers and shallow water. She wanted to go home. The other 2 didn't.
I
made up my mind that I would do whatever I had to so that everyone would
end
up happy. It ended up that I got in touch with my mom and she came to
pick
up the baby. Alyssa was happy to leave and spend time at home with
grandma
and the other two were happy to stay. Then after a couple of hours,
Sierra
wanted to leave and Joseph didn't. So we made an agreement, Joseph would
decide this time when to leave and next time Sierra would decide. So
today,
Joseph wanted to leave first but also knew he agreed to the decision
last
time around. He knew Sierra stayed longer than she wanted to for him. So
he
walked around and then sat and played alone in the shade and then sat
with
me and talked for awhile. He waited patiently for Sierra like she had
the
week before for him. I then said next time we would stay until closing
because that's what I wanted to do. I know one of them, probably both
will
enjoy that. But the decision is off both of them for that one. They both
mentioned bringing their gameboys so that if one gets tired of water
play,
they still have something to do. And in all honesty, if both get tired,
we
would leave before closing. It's not like I really need to be there
until
5:00!!!
I must also mention now that the baby stays home when we go and has no
problem doing so. This all went very smoothly and certainly didn't take
just
one time to get it that way. A lot of communicating from when they were
little brings us to this time and problem solving now. They don't see it
as
one "having" to stay but as cutting a deal with each other. A lot of
deals
go on here with them on a daily basis. They figure it out for themselves
and
it works well. Sometimes they need some help, most times they don't.
On a last note, one mom that was going to meet us there today cancelled.
She
wrote me late Sunday night that her 10 year old son did something and
she
grounded him for today. I can guarantee you that whatever he did had
nothing
to do with the impending day at the water park. And his mother also
lamented
how his grounding punished her as she really wanted to join us. I mean
really, what's the point and what did he learn?
And a PS that I know I am very fortunate to have my mom here and
available
and very willing to help out when I need her. Some aren't so lucky. I
was
also willing to call my husband or leave with the baby until my oldest
was
home and could watch her and then I would go back to the park. Not the
easiest thing for me, but certainly the best for all the kids. And
that's
really why I went to the park in the first place, for them.
Mary B
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
<http://rd.yahoo.com/M=253843.3292484.4586262.1261774/D=egroupweb/S=1705
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~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
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Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kelli Traaseth
----- Original Message -----
From: "jmcseals SEALS" <jmcseals@...>
**Again, this appears to be about you and your energy and comfort levels.
Not
about addressing your sons and his needs. **
Exactly! I usually can trace a bad time with small children to me
being inflexible, or me being focussed on what I wanted. Which I've
learned doesn't work very well with young children. Like what Deb
said, I can trace it to my parenting.
Thank you Jennifer, Sandra, Kelli, Deb, others who posted on the "bad mommy
moment". I threw out the Alfie Kohn suggestion and then had to run to play
Stratego with my son and watch some movies. Then evening was gone!
What wonderful suggestions! Even though my kids are getting older I still
learn so much from reading this list.
I've learned from this list that peace and joy can be things to experience
in parenting.
Kelli
averyschmidt
> I expect my kids to be well behaved - meaning I want them to chooseWhen my kids were two and four I probably would have said something
> behavior that is positive, helpful, considerate. If they choose to
> misbehave, which is anything that isn't positive, helpful or
> considerate, then they will "reap what they sow" - the logical
> consequence of their actions. Not punishment in my eyes.
similar to this, but now that they're a little older and my youngest
is a toddler I can see how cold and unhelpful that attitude was. My
third child is reaping the benefits of my trials and errors with his
brothers and my years of thought and self-reflection. I never see
he and I as anything but on the same side. If he doesn't want to be
in the car to do errands I consider that thoughtfully since his
happiness is as important to me as my own. I don't see him as a
stubborn little will who isn't letting me get on with the more
important things in life, I see *him* as the important thing in
life. Everything else can take a back seat. Mabye it's the result
of this paradigm shift I've made, or mabye he's just got a different
toddler-temperament than his brothers had, but my relationship with
him is almost totally effortless and joyful. I never need to look
at him and calculate what the "logical consequences" of his actions
should be or that he should "get what he deserves" or "reap what he
sows." I honestly can't imagine seeing him through revenge--colored
glasses.
BTW, how exactly is a "logical consequence" different from
punishment, in your opinion?
Patti