Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Praise- Another Question- long
Heather Woodward
On this same issue of praise I just had an experience that I would like some ideas on. As I touched on briefly our church Sunday school is doing this reward thing - and the "RULES" are explicit. That is a whole subject in itself - what I had a question about was this:
I taught the kids class the last two evenings while adults had a special seminar. One child asked towards the cleanup time if he could do anything to help. I was pleasantly surprised and said "sure". He proceeded to sweep all under where we were working ( we made salt dough maps).
The following night the boys were fighting over who was going to do this. and then I overhear why ... apparently they are given "coins" by the Sunday School teacher when they do helpful things, etc. These coins can then be turned into prizes like matchbox cars, trinkets and such.
For my kids personally I really would like them to do helpful things for the intrinsic value of being helpful, kind etc. NOT because they will get a reward. However in real life - it does seem to work this way. If you do a good job you get a raise. ( or in my husbands case - get to keep your job;-)
So these same boys who would not normally have offered to help, much less done a decent clean-up job - now are more than willing to pitch in when given a reward.
I can't completely explain why - but I don't like this system. The other parents are fine with it - or don't want to rock the boat. Some of them even go so far as to say they will "call the Sunday School teacher if the child is "bad" - and then a "coin" will be taken away. The Sunday School teacher seems to feel that the kids don't have a problem with it - but I do. Which I do. I feel as if teaching children in this way - gives them the belief system that "one good deed gets a reward" What if there is no reward?
I think we all are motivated by "rewards" of one type or another. It may not be monetary - but emotional. So even if I just say to the child "Thanks for doing such a great job sweeping up. It really helped me out!" I have "rewarded" him in a sense.
I do have one child in this class - and luckily he is either too small to care - or in my opinion is not developmentally ready for most of the coin behavior. (i.e. Sitting in the seat throughout the whole meeting; no disobeying parents or adults; no running or rough playing; - and others which I can't remember) We always have to go to the bathroom - even if we've gone before. It's virtually impossible to sit in a straight backed chair the whole time, there is always something that is seen as disobeying - and in his exuberance - sometimes forgets not to run and hop in the building. At times he does feel excited that he has a "coin". And after I had it out with the teacher that the one coin that he had was taken away because he "saw him disobey me" the coins are no longer taken away once received. And my son seems to really enjoy this class. Chase doesn't have a problem with it - its me who feels it is a bit over the top. So is it wrong to interfere? ( Chase is 5)
What do you all think? In one sense the reward system appears to be working.... but is it right to instill stewardship within a person based upon what reward they will receive?
Thanks for your input.
I taught the kids class the last two evenings while adults had a special seminar. One child asked towards the cleanup time if he could do anything to help. I was pleasantly surprised and said "sure". He proceeded to sweep all under where we were working ( we made salt dough maps).
The following night the boys were fighting over who was going to do this. and then I overhear why ... apparently they are given "coins" by the Sunday School teacher when they do helpful things, etc. These coins can then be turned into prizes like matchbox cars, trinkets and such.
For my kids personally I really would like them to do helpful things for the intrinsic value of being helpful, kind etc. NOT because they will get a reward. However in real life - it does seem to work this way. If you do a good job you get a raise. ( or in my husbands case - get to keep your job;-)
So these same boys who would not normally have offered to help, much less done a decent clean-up job - now are more than willing to pitch in when given a reward.
I can't completely explain why - but I don't like this system. The other parents are fine with it - or don't want to rock the boat. Some of them even go so far as to say they will "call the Sunday School teacher if the child is "bad" - and then a "coin" will be taken away. The Sunday School teacher seems to feel that the kids don't have a problem with it - but I do. Which I do. I feel as if teaching children in this way - gives them the belief system that "one good deed gets a reward" What if there is no reward?
I think we all are motivated by "rewards" of one type or another. It may not be monetary - but emotional. So even if I just say to the child "Thanks for doing such a great job sweeping up. It really helped me out!" I have "rewarded" him in a sense.
I do have one child in this class - and luckily he is either too small to care - or in my opinion is not developmentally ready for most of the coin behavior. (i.e. Sitting in the seat throughout the whole meeting; no disobeying parents or adults; no running or rough playing; - and others which I can't remember) We always have to go to the bathroom - even if we've gone before. It's virtually impossible to sit in a straight backed chair the whole time, there is always something that is seen as disobeying - and in his exuberance - sometimes forgets not to run and hop in the building. At times he does feel excited that he has a "coin". And after I had it out with the teacher that the one coin that he had was taken away because he "saw him disobey me" the coins are no longer taken away once received. And my son seems to really enjoy this class. Chase doesn't have a problem with it - its me who feels it is a bit over the top. So is it wrong to interfere? ( Chase is 5)
What do you all think? In one sense the reward system appears to be working.... but is it right to instill stewardship within a person based upon what reward they will receive?
Thanks for your input.
----- Original Message -----
From: treegoddess@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, April 21, 2003 9:25 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Praise
I have lots of friends that give stickers, candy, trinkets as
rewards/praise for their toilet trainees to use the bathroom. Some even
put sad faces on a calendar if the child didn't make it to the bathroom
and stuff like that. I've seen their kids get pretty upset and have a
fit when they didn't get goodies anymore, and I've seen the poor things
have the wind knocked out of their sails with the sad face on the
calendar. So sad.
My 2yo DD is potty training herself and when she uses the toilet and/or
wakes up with a dry bed we give wild applaud as her own personal
cheerleading squad. Stuff like, "Hooray! You did it! Go Fifi! Go
Fifi! You must be so proud of yourself!!" Happy smiles all around.
Her 4yo big brother is her biggest supporter. ;)
I like to think that less is more, and I wasn't going to gift-give with
my children every time they pooped. LOL I can see how that could
backfire. Our way may not be perfect, but it works for us.
TreeGoddess
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Tracy and Gilbert Valdez
Hi, new here! Just liked this line of questioning.my two cents -
Reward systems are good for certain children and only at certain
situations. In particular - if a child seems to be a little
disinterested in accomplishing a behavior - biting fingernails for
example.the reward system might work because it serves to correct a
specific behavior and will only last until the modifications are
completed. Once the child's habit in this instance is broken, one would
not continue to reward the corrected behavior.
Reward systems in this instance are going to fail. Why? Because they
will only last until the newness wears off or the reward no longer
justifies the act of the required behavior. What does the teacher plan
on using once the coin is no longer enough incentive to behave? 2 coins?
3 coins?
If the teacher truly wanted to elicit better behavior, then usually a
higher set of standards with positive reinforcement is required. If a
child wiggles during a service, work together to see what can challenge
the child until service is over.have him count hats, flowers, sneezes,
or the number of times the word "Amen" is spoken - that one tricks many
into paying attention (grin).
Many creative and unusual techniques can be adapted to fit different
situations. Reward systems are good for specific instances with short
term goals and quick achievements. Long term goals, like character
development take different approaches. I have discovered that other
children monitoring good behavior in their peers is *very* influencing.
Maybe the teacher could give the children lots of tickets or coins and
tell them they must try to notice positive behavior in their peers and
when they do, give them a coin. The goal is to give your coins away as
well as earn them from your peers. No reward system for the most coins
is necessary - we've turned it into a game now. Again, this is not a
long term technique but a short term attention getter. Many of these
type games can be started back up every so often when the situation
calls for it.
Well - I chatted on longer than I planned! LOL!
HTH!
Tracy Valdez
-----Original Message-----
From: Heather Woodward [mailto:bacwoodz@...]
Sent: Friday, May 02, 2003 1:34 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Praise- Another Question- long
On this same issue of praise I just had an experience that I would like
some ideas on. As I touched on briefly our church Sunday school is doing
this reward thing - and the "RULES" are explicit. That is a whole
subject in itself - what I had a question about was this:
I taught the kids class the last two evenings while adults had a special
seminar. One child asked towards the cleanup time if he could do
anything to help. I was pleasantly surprised and said "sure". He
proceeded to sweep all under where we were working ( we made salt dough
maps).
The following night the boys were fighting over who was going to do
this. and then I overhear why ... apparently they are given "coins" by
the Sunday School teacher when they do helpful things, etc. These coins
can then be turned into prizes like matchbox cars, trinkets and such.
For my kids personally I really would like them to do helpful things
for the intrinsic value of being helpful, kind etc. NOT because they
will get a reward. However in real life - it does seem to work this way.
If you do a good job you get a raise. ( or in my husbands case - get to
keep your job;-)
So these same boys who would not normally have offered to help, much
less done a decent clean-up job - now are more than willing to pitch in
when given a reward.
I can't completely explain why - but I don't like this system. The other
parents are fine with it - or don't want to rock the boat. Some of them
even go so far as to say they will "call the Sunday School teacher if
the child is "bad" - and then a "coin" will be taken away. The Sunday
School teacher seems to feel that the kids don't have a problem with it
- but I do. Which I do. I feel as if teaching children in this way -
gives them the belief system that "one good deed gets a reward" What if
there is no reward?
I think we all are motivated by "rewards" of one type or another. It may
not be monetary - but emotional. So even if I just say to the child
"Thanks for doing such a great job sweeping up. It really helped me
out!" I have "rewarded" him in a sense.
I do have one child in this class - and luckily he is either too small
to care - or in my opinion is not developmentally ready for most of the
coin behavior. (i.e. Sitting in the seat throughout the whole meeting;
no disobeying parents or adults; no running or rough playing; - and
others which I can't remember) We always have to go to the bathroom -
even if we've gone before. It's virtually impossible to sit in a
straight backed chair the whole time, there is always something that is
seen as disobeying - and in his exuberance - sometimes forgets not to
run and hop in the building. At times he does feel excited that he has a
"coin". And after I had it out with the teacher that the one coin that
he had was taken away because he "saw him disobey me" the coins are no
longer taken away once received. And my son seems to really enjoy this
class. Chase doesn't have a problem with it - its me who feels it is a
bit over the top. So is it wrong to interfere? ( Chase is 5)
What do you all think? In one sense the reward system appears to be
working.... but is it right to instill stewardship within a person based
upon what reward they will receive?
Thanks for your input.
Reward systems are good for certain children and only at certain
situations. In particular - if a child seems to be a little
disinterested in accomplishing a behavior - biting fingernails for
example.the reward system might work because it serves to correct a
specific behavior and will only last until the modifications are
completed. Once the child's habit in this instance is broken, one would
not continue to reward the corrected behavior.
Reward systems in this instance are going to fail. Why? Because they
will only last until the newness wears off or the reward no longer
justifies the act of the required behavior. What does the teacher plan
on using once the coin is no longer enough incentive to behave? 2 coins?
3 coins?
If the teacher truly wanted to elicit better behavior, then usually a
higher set of standards with positive reinforcement is required. If a
child wiggles during a service, work together to see what can challenge
the child until service is over.have him count hats, flowers, sneezes,
or the number of times the word "Amen" is spoken - that one tricks many
into paying attention (grin).
Many creative and unusual techniques can be adapted to fit different
situations. Reward systems are good for specific instances with short
term goals and quick achievements. Long term goals, like character
development take different approaches. I have discovered that other
children monitoring good behavior in their peers is *very* influencing.
Maybe the teacher could give the children lots of tickets or coins and
tell them they must try to notice positive behavior in their peers and
when they do, give them a coin. The goal is to give your coins away as
well as earn them from your peers. No reward system for the most coins
is necessary - we've turned it into a game now. Again, this is not a
long term technique but a short term attention getter. Many of these
type games can be started back up every so often when the situation
calls for it.
Well - I chatted on longer than I planned! LOL!
HTH!
Tracy Valdez
-----Original Message-----
From: Heather Woodward [mailto:bacwoodz@...]
Sent: Friday, May 02, 2003 1:34 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Praise- Another Question- long
On this same issue of praise I just had an experience that I would like
some ideas on. As I touched on briefly our church Sunday school is doing
this reward thing - and the "RULES" are explicit. That is a whole
subject in itself - what I had a question about was this:
I taught the kids class the last two evenings while adults had a special
seminar. One child asked towards the cleanup time if he could do
anything to help. I was pleasantly surprised and said "sure". He
proceeded to sweep all under where we were working ( we made salt dough
maps).
The following night the boys were fighting over who was going to do
this. and then I overhear why ... apparently they are given "coins" by
the Sunday School teacher when they do helpful things, etc. These coins
can then be turned into prizes like matchbox cars, trinkets and such.
For my kids personally I really would like them to do helpful things
for the intrinsic value of being helpful, kind etc. NOT because they
will get a reward. However in real life - it does seem to work this way.
If you do a good job you get a raise. ( or in my husbands case - get to
keep your job;-)
So these same boys who would not normally have offered to help, much
less done a decent clean-up job - now are more than willing to pitch in
when given a reward.
I can't completely explain why - but I don't like this system. The other
parents are fine with it - or don't want to rock the boat. Some of them
even go so far as to say they will "call the Sunday School teacher if
the child is "bad" - and then a "coin" will be taken away. The Sunday
School teacher seems to feel that the kids don't have a problem with it
- but I do. Which I do. I feel as if teaching children in this way -
gives them the belief system that "one good deed gets a reward" What if
there is no reward?
I think we all are motivated by "rewards" of one type or another. It may
not be monetary - but emotional. So even if I just say to the child
"Thanks for doing such a great job sweeping up. It really helped me
out!" I have "rewarded" him in a sense.
I do have one child in this class - and luckily he is either too small
to care - or in my opinion is not developmentally ready for most of the
coin behavior. (i.e. Sitting in the seat throughout the whole meeting;
no disobeying parents or adults; no running or rough playing; - and
others which I can't remember) We always have to go to the bathroom -
even if we've gone before. It's virtually impossible to sit in a
straight backed chair the whole time, there is always something that is
seen as disobeying - and in his exuberance - sometimes forgets not to
run and hop in the building. At times he does feel excited that he has a
"coin". And after I had it out with the teacher that the one coin that
he had was taken away because he "saw him disobey me" the coins are no
longer taken away once received. And my son seems to really enjoy this
class. Chase doesn't have a problem with it - its me who feels it is a
bit over the top. So is it wrong to interfere? ( Chase is 5)
What do you all think? In one sense the reward system appears to be
working.... but is it right to instill stewardship within a person based
upon what reward they will receive?
Thanks for your input.
----- Original Message -----
From: treegoddess@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, April 21, 2003 9:25 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Praise
I have lots of friends that give stickers, candy, trinkets as
rewards/praise for their toilet trainees to use the bathroom. Some
even
put sad faces on a calendar if the child didn't make it to the
bathroom
and stuff like that. I've seen their kids get pretty upset and have a
fit when they didn't get goodies anymore, and I've seen the poor
things
have the wind knocked out of their sails with the sad face on the
calendar. So sad.
My 2yo DD is potty training herself and when she uses the toilet
and/or
wakes up with a dry bed we give wild applaud as her own personal
cheerleading squad. Stuff like, "Hooray! You did it! Go Fifi! Go
Fifi! You must be so proud of yourself!!" Happy smiles all around.
Her 4yo big brother is her biggest supporter. ;)
I like to think that less is more, and I wasn't going to gift-give
with
my children every time they pooped. LOL I can see how that could
backfire. Our way may not be perfect, but it works for us.
TreeGoddess
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Angela
Hi Heather,
The situation you described would bother me too. But I am sure that it
wouldn't bother most of the people I know because they are lost deep in
the culture of rewards based behavior and can't even see how it could be
bad. (That's how schools are set up, but instead of coins, you get good
grades or little slips of paper to trade in for a pencil at the end of
the week.) I think you'll have hard time getting people to change the
program because it works (temporarily) while the kids are there. The
teachers feel like they have some sense of control that way. But for my
own kids, I wouldn't want them to be a part of it. I don't want my kids
helping others for a prize or coin. I want them to learn to listen to
their heart and follow it. I want them to be free of that whole system
of thinking. That said, if my child wanted to continue with the
program, I would stress to them at home the real reasons we help people
and tell him they give prizes just to remind the kids to be helpful more
often.
YMMV,
Angela
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
The situation you described would bother me too. But I am sure that it
wouldn't bother most of the people I know because they are lost deep in
the culture of rewards based behavior and can't even see how it could be
bad. (That's how schools are set up, but instead of coins, you get good
grades or little slips of paper to trade in for a pencil at the end of
the week.) I think you'll have hard time getting people to change the
program because it works (temporarily) while the kids are there. The
teachers feel like they have some sense of control that way. But for my
own kids, I wouldn't want them to be a part of it. I don't want my kids
helping others for a prize or coin. I want them to learn to listen to
their heart and follow it. I want them to be free of that whole system
of thinking. That said, if my child wanted to continue with the
program, I would stress to them at home the real reasons we help people
and tell him they give prizes just to remind the kids to be helpful more
often.
YMMV,
Angela
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/2/03 2:56:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
gtvaldez@... writes:
biting my nails and then I would go behind her back and bite them.
Pam G.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
gtvaldez@... writes:
> biting fingernails forThe reward thing never worked for me and my Mom. She would reward me for not
> example.the reward system might work because it serves to correct a
> specific behavior and will only last until the modifications are
> completed. Once the child's habit in this instance is broken, one would
> not continue to reward the corrected behavior.
>
>
biting my nails and then I would go behind her back and bite them.
Pam G.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
jmcseals SEALS
***I feel as if teaching children in this way - gives them the belief system
that "one good deed gets a reward" What if there is no reward?***
Oh! But there's always a reward! While it may not be tangible, there is
the reward of happiness, pride and joy in doing a good deed! Perhaps you
could explain it that way to the kids next time you are teaching class?
(Probably wouldn't hurt to let the parents in on the secret as well! <bwg>)
Jennifer
_________________________________________________________________
MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
that "one good deed gets a reward" What if there is no reward?***
Oh! But there's always a reward! While it may not be tangible, there is
the reward of happiness, pride and joy in doing a good deed! Perhaps you
could explain it that way to the kids next time you are teaching class?
(Probably wouldn't hurt to let the parents in on the secret as well! <bwg>)
Jennifer
_________________________________________________________________
MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Heather Woodward
Thanks - that is a very good suggestion ;-)
----- Original Message -----
From: jmcseals SEALS
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, May 02, 2003 4:24 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Praise- Another Question- long
***I feel as if teaching children in this way - gives them the belief system
that "one good deed gets a reward" What if there is no reward?***
Oh! But there's always a reward! While it may not be tangible, there is
the reward of happiness, pride and joy in doing a good deed! Perhaps you
could explain it that way to the kids next time you are teaching class?
(Probably wouldn't hurt to let the parents in on the secret as well! <bwg>)
Jennifer
_________________________________________________________________
MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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