Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Would you?
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/1/03 12:33:57 AM, pennacres@... writes:
<< Would you unschool if your child really likes public school? >>
No.
<<If you had done "school at home" and are moving towards unschooling
would that move you to keeping your child home from public school even when
they like it? >>
I don't understand that.
(After reading the rest of your post I began to understand it.)
<<If you knew your 7/8 year old would probably not be with you in 3 or 4
years would you still unschool? (knowing they would be def. going back to
public school then)>>
Depends why he would definitely be going back.
<<If you knew your 7/8 year old was a slow learner and would probably not
be at grade level for public school in 3 or 4 years would you still
homeschool?>>
School chews up and spits out kids who are slow learners. They destroy their
desire to learn and their self image.
Being at grade level in public school isn't among my top 300 or so hopes for
my children. Schools themselves can't get kids to grade level. But they
sure do some phenomenal damage to the many who fail to make "grade level."
Sandra
<< Would you unschool if your child really likes public school? >>
No.
<<If you had done "school at home" and are moving towards unschooling
would that move you to keeping your child home from public school even when
they like it? >>
I don't understand that.
(After reading the rest of your post I began to understand it.)
<<If you knew your 7/8 year old would probably not be with you in 3 or 4
years would you still unschool? (knowing they would be def. going back to
public school then)>>
Depends why he would definitely be going back.
<<If you knew your 7/8 year old was a slow learner and would probably not
be at grade level for public school in 3 or 4 years would you still
homeschool?>>
School chews up and spits out kids who are slow learners. They destroy their
desire to learn and their self image.
Being at grade level in public school isn't among my top 300 or so hopes for
my children. Schools themselves can't get kids to grade level. But they
sure do some phenomenal damage to the many who fail to make "grade level."
Sandra
Grace Penno
Would you unschool if your child really likes public school?
If you had done "school at home" and are moving towards unschooling would that move you to keeping your child home from public school even when they like it?
If you knew your 7/8 year old would probably not be with you in 3 or 4 years would you still unschool? (knowing they would be def. going back to public school then)
If you knew your 7/8 year old was a slow learner and would probably not be at grade level for public school in 3 or 4 years would you still homeschool?
Our grandchildren are almost 8. We took them out of public school half way thru kindergarten. Mostly we did relaxed homeschooling Sometimes it sure wasnt very "relaxed" when I would have sessions of "school at home". and then lose my cool when they balked.
One of the girls is a very "spirited" child- after losing my temper very badly with her during one of her more flaming tantrums I said in remorse that if she wished she could try public school again and she jumped at it. This was this past October. She has a great teacher-and enjoys school usually. If she wants she can stay home anytime and if home looks more interesting she occasionally does.
Her sister decided she wanted to try public school in February. She did not get a teacher who took time with her and she found herself confused and left aside. She was not where the rest of her class were and was hurt badly by being made aware of that.
She decided she had had enough after ten days and decided to go back to homeschooling-which actually is pretty relaxed. She actually feels worse now as she really would have liked to play with all the kids her twin sister does. There is only one Elementary school in the town. We live out of town. There are only a few kids homeschooling in the district and none anywhere near her age.
We really feel we should unschool-we are going to a Homeschooling Conference in a couple of weeks in Creston,BC and are looking forwards to hearing the two Unschooling speakers.
Of course I know it is strictly our call but after going up and down and around I am curious enough to see if any of you have been in similar circumstances and what your take is on it.
I havnt given much background-I tend to go on and on anyway.
Grace
{Miss Frizzle says "Take Chances-Get Messy-Make Mistakes"}
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
If you had done "school at home" and are moving towards unschooling would that move you to keeping your child home from public school even when they like it?
If you knew your 7/8 year old would probably not be with you in 3 or 4 years would you still unschool? (knowing they would be def. going back to public school then)
If you knew your 7/8 year old was a slow learner and would probably not be at grade level for public school in 3 or 4 years would you still homeschool?
Our grandchildren are almost 8. We took them out of public school half way thru kindergarten. Mostly we did relaxed homeschooling Sometimes it sure wasnt very "relaxed" when I would have sessions of "school at home". and then lose my cool when they balked.
One of the girls is a very "spirited" child- after losing my temper very badly with her during one of her more flaming tantrums I said in remorse that if she wished she could try public school again and she jumped at it. This was this past October. She has a great teacher-and enjoys school usually. If she wants she can stay home anytime and if home looks more interesting she occasionally does.
Her sister decided she wanted to try public school in February. She did not get a teacher who took time with her and she found herself confused and left aside. She was not where the rest of her class were and was hurt badly by being made aware of that.
She decided she had had enough after ten days and decided to go back to homeschooling-which actually is pretty relaxed. She actually feels worse now as she really would have liked to play with all the kids her twin sister does. There is only one Elementary school in the town. We live out of town. There are only a few kids homeschooling in the district and none anywhere near her age.
We really feel we should unschool-we are going to a Homeschooling Conference in a couple of weeks in Creston,BC and are looking forwards to hearing the two Unschooling speakers.
Of course I know it is strictly our call but after going up and down and around I am curious enough to see if any of you have been in similar circumstances and what your take is on it.
I havnt given much background-I tend to go on and on anyway.
Grace
{Miss Frizzle says "Take Chances-Get Messy-Make Mistakes"}
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Grace Penno
Thank you Sandra for your response.
We are in our mid sixties. The girls will go to their biological mother when we cannot look after them. What she will do with them is anyones guess. We hope she will ditch the alcoholic boyfriend and make a life for the girls. We hope we can look after them for many years.
Having one girl at school and one at home is really making my life miserable although my husband doesnt have the problems with it that I have.
No, having Kara at "grade level" is not a big deal for us. One of the reasons that we homeschool is to keep them and especially Kara from being forced to walk their walk.
It was very painful to see what happened in the ten days she did go back-and very painful and confusing for her.
Homeschooling is not looked on favourably by a lot of the teachers here. Some of what went down was actually about me- I have lived near this small town for 37 yearsOur five children and adopted grandaughter all went through the school system here. The -Only-remark her teacher made to me when I picked up her things was "-well I guess Kara probably found it very confusing-next time you might consider putting her in at the beginning of the year. "My" children are very advanced"....obviously Kara was not one of "her" children and I wasn't to think she had the time or interest for a homeschooled child who just came in after the middle of the year just because she wanted to try it.
Anyway.....
yes the schools certainly do chew up the children who prefer to learn differently. Sadly one of the coping mechanisms is to develop a hard veneer to protect themselves which is what Stephie does sometimes -and it takes most all of a weekend to get our real little girl back.
Mainly I am curious to hear if anyone has taken young children out, or back out, to unschool and also what other parents have seen when young unschooled children go back to school.
So , how can a family really unschool when they are tied to one young childs school schedule. ( well actually I know how to do it-we are...)
Grace
{Miss Frizzle says "Take Chances-Get Messy-Make Mistakes"}
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
We are in our mid sixties. The girls will go to their biological mother when we cannot look after them. What she will do with them is anyones guess. We hope she will ditch the alcoholic boyfriend and make a life for the girls. We hope we can look after them for many years.
Having one girl at school and one at home is really making my life miserable although my husband doesnt have the problems with it that I have.
No, having Kara at "grade level" is not a big deal for us. One of the reasons that we homeschool is to keep them and especially Kara from being forced to walk their walk.
It was very painful to see what happened in the ten days she did go back-and very painful and confusing for her.
Homeschooling is not looked on favourably by a lot of the teachers here. Some of what went down was actually about me- I have lived near this small town for 37 yearsOur five children and adopted grandaughter all went through the school system here. The -Only-remark her teacher made to me when I picked up her things was "-well I guess Kara probably found it very confusing-next time you might consider putting her in at the beginning of the year. "My" children are very advanced"....obviously Kara was not one of "her" children and I wasn't to think she had the time or interest for a homeschooled child who just came in after the middle of the year just because she wanted to try it.
Anyway.....
yes the schools certainly do chew up the children who prefer to learn differently. Sadly one of the coping mechanisms is to develop a hard veneer to protect themselves which is what Stephie does sometimes -and it takes most all of a weekend to get our real little girl back.
Mainly I am curious to hear if anyone has taken young children out, or back out, to unschool and also what other parents have seen when young unschooled children go back to school.
So , how can a family really unschool when they are tied to one young childs school schedule. ( well actually I know how to do it-we are...)
Grace
{Miss Frizzle says "Take Chances-Get Messy-Make Mistakes"}
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
jmcseals SEALS
Dear Grace,
May I just say what a wonderful thing you are doing? Your grandchildren are
so blessed to have you in their lives! My grandparents raised me and I
would give anything for them to have been as involved in my learning and
growth.
Bravo!!! For being a loving grandmother and having an open mind!
Jennifer
PS. My grandmother is 63, would you like to give her a buzz and let her know
it's not just my 'wacky generation'?? <big wide grin!>
_________________________________________________________________
Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online
http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
May I just say what a wonderful thing you are doing? Your grandchildren are
so blessed to have you in their lives! My grandparents raised me and I
would give anything for them to have been as involved in my learning and
growth.
Bravo!!! For being a loving grandmother and having an open mind!
Jennifer
PS. My grandmother is 63, would you like to give her a buzz and let her know
it's not just my 'wacky generation'?? <big wide grin!>
_________________________________________________________________
Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online
http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Tim and Maureen
That teacher should read John Gatto's "Dumbing Us Down." Award winning teacher who despises the school system, advocates for home learning, and/or massive reform of schools - mostly because of on teachers that end up sounding like that passive-aggressive twit.
My (angry) thots
Tim Thomas
My (angry) thots
Tim Thomas
----- Original Message -----
From: Grace Penno
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2003 1:05 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Would you?
Thank you Sandra for your response.
We are in our mid sixties. The girls will go to their biological mother when we cannot look after them. What she will do with them is anyones guess. We hope she will ditch the alcoholic boyfriend and make a life for the girls. We hope we can look after them for many years.
Having one girl at school and one at home is really making my life miserable although my husband doesnt have the problems with it that I have.
No, having Kara at "grade level" is not a big deal for us. One of the reasons that we homeschool is to keep them and especially Kara from being forced to walk their walk.
It was very painful to see what happened in the ten days she did go back-and very painful and confusing for her.
Homeschooling is not looked on favourably by a lot of the teachers here. Some of what went down was actually about me- I have lived near this small town for 37 yearsOur five children and adopted grandaughter all went through the school system here. The -Only-remark her teacher made to me when I picked up her things was "-well I guess Kara probably found it very confusing-next time you might consider putting her in at the beginning of the year. "My" children are very advanced"....obviously Kara was not one of "her" children and I wasn't to think she had the time or interest for a homeschooled child who just came in after the middle of the year just because she wanted to try it.
Anyway.....
yes the schools certainly do chew up the children who prefer to learn differently. Sadly one of the coping mechanisms is to develop a hard veneer to protect themselves which is what Stephie does sometimes -and it takes most all of a weekend to get our real little girl back.
Mainly I am curious to hear if anyone has taken young children out, or back out, to unschool and also what other parents have seen when young unschooled children go back to school.
So , how can a family really unschool when they are tied to one young childs school schedule. ( well actually I know how to do it-we are...)
Grace
{Miss Frizzle says "Take Chances-Get Messy-Make Mistakes"}
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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Heidi
--- In [email protected], Tim and Maureen
<tmthomas@s...> wrote:
learning, and/or massive reform of schools - mostly because of on
teachers that end up sounding like that passive-aggressive twit.
has to say! Every parent, too. His writings are the first inroad in
my own thinking, that a person MUST have at least a diploma, to
succeed at all in life. The anecdotes and stories he tells of some of
his students, who flourish under their self-directed lives!
HeidiC
<tmthomas@s...> wrote:
> That teacher should read John Gatto's "Dumbing Us Down." Awardwinning teacher who despises the school system, advocates for home
learning, and/or massive reform of schools - mostly because of on
teachers that end up sounding like that passive-aggressive twit.
>John Gatto!!! I think every teacher in America should hear what he
> My (angry) thots
>
has to say! Every parent, too. His writings are the first inroad in
my own thinking, that a person MUST have at least a diploma, to
succeed at all in life. The anecdotes and stories he tells of some of
his students, who flourish under their self-directed lives!
HeidiC
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/1/03 1:35:24 AM, pennacres@... writes:
<< So , how can a family really unschool when they are tied to one young
childs school schedule. ( well actually I know how to do it-we are...) >>
I made a comment about this one time and got jumped HARD (behind my back, in
print, by an Alaskan homeschooling newsletter). Here's my bit (from an
interview):
You believe that unschooling cannot be a part-time affair. Given that, is it
possible to unschool one child while another is using a structured
curriculum? What if one child wants to go to school?
I think that spoils the integrity of the set-of-everything, to say, "Math we
won't risk, but the rest of that you can learn on your own, or not." It
creates an object and a field. Math is a Must-Know, and the rest is less
valuable.
I think setting "academics" apart from the rest of cool stuff to know is
just as bad. Is science more important than auto-mechanics? Hey, it is
auto-mechanics, everywhere but at school, where auto-mechanics is in one
building, and science is in another building, different teacher, different
book, different line on the report card. In real life there are thousands of
buildings, and teachers, and books.
If one child in a family is using a curriculum because he or she wants to,
and the work is done her own way, that's not as disruptive as I think it
would be if the parent were inflicting a curriculum on one child while
claiming or attempting to leave another child free to learn naturally. How
could one prevent comparing?
What I have recommended and can't get out of is that if one of my children
wanted to go to school, I would go along with it. I think the worst thing
about school is the powerlessness of the students. They have to be there
whether they want to or not. There's no virtue in those who want to be there,
and no joy in those who do not want to be. When families force their children
home when the children would rather have stayed in school, the same
powerlessness exists. Part of the reason I would go with it is that I would
not expect it to last. I've made their home-life fun. School would have to be
fantasyland to compete with what they have at home.
If the parent has separated learning from school in his or her mind, the
pressure on a school-kid will be much lower than if the parent really
believes school is the source of knowledge and success.
While it's luxuriously easy if everyone in a family is committed to
unschooling, I don't think life will be over for them if some of them are
involved in formal learning. I think where unschooling and formality are side
by side, unschooling will win out every time, because it's joyous and
friendly.
--------------------------------------------------------
The harsh criticism was over my use of "inflicted." They would've burned me
at the stake had I been a local, I guess.
Another school-related thing I have pre-written is here:
http://sandradodd.com/schoolchoice
and the interview is on the HEM site
http://secure.addy.com/mhegener/HEM/HEM151.98/151.98_art_sd.html
Both are linked from
sandradodd.com/articles
Sandra
<< So , how can a family really unschool when they are tied to one young
childs school schedule. ( well actually I know how to do it-we are...) >>
I made a comment about this one time and got jumped HARD (behind my back, in
print, by an Alaskan homeschooling newsletter). Here's my bit (from an
interview):
You believe that unschooling cannot be a part-time affair. Given that, is it
possible to unschool one child while another is using a structured
curriculum? What if one child wants to go to school?
I think that spoils the integrity of the set-of-everything, to say, "Math we
won't risk, but the rest of that you can learn on your own, or not." It
creates an object and a field. Math is a Must-Know, and the rest is less
valuable.
I think setting "academics" apart from the rest of cool stuff to know is
just as bad. Is science more important than auto-mechanics? Hey, it is
auto-mechanics, everywhere but at school, where auto-mechanics is in one
building, and science is in another building, different teacher, different
book, different line on the report card. In real life there are thousands of
buildings, and teachers, and books.
If one child in a family is using a curriculum because he or she wants to,
and the work is done her own way, that's not as disruptive as I think it
would be if the parent were inflicting a curriculum on one child while
claiming or attempting to leave another child free to learn naturally. How
could one prevent comparing?
What I have recommended and can't get out of is that if one of my children
wanted to go to school, I would go along with it. I think the worst thing
about school is the powerlessness of the students. They have to be there
whether they want to or not. There's no virtue in those who want to be there,
and no joy in those who do not want to be. When families force their children
home when the children would rather have stayed in school, the same
powerlessness exists. Part of the reason I would go with it is that I would
not expect it to last. I've made their home-life fun. School would have to be
fantasyland to compete with what they have at home.
If the parent has separated learning from school in his or her mind, the
pressure on a school-kid will be much lower than if the parent really
believes school is the source of knowledge and success.
While it's luxuriously easy if everyone in a family is committed to
unschooling, I don't think life will be over for them if some of them are
involved in formal learning. I think where unschooling and formality are side
by side, unschooling will win out every time, because it's joyous and
friendly.
--------------------------------------------------------
The harsh criticism was over my use of "inflicted." They would've burned me
at the stake had I been a local, I guess.
Another school-related thing I have pre-written is here:
http://sandradodd.com/schoolchoice
and the interview is on the HEM site
http://secure.addy.com/mhegener/HEM/HEM151.98/151.98_art_sd.html
Both are linked from
sandradodd.com/articles
Sandra
Tia Leschke
>are
> May I just say what a wonderful thing you are doing? Your grandchildren
> so blessed to have you in their lives! My grandparents raised me and IActually, what Grace didn't say but did on another list, is that these are
> would give anything for them to have been as involved in my learning and
> growth.
>
> Bravo!!! For being a loving grandmother and having an open mind!
> Jennifer
her *great-grandkids*, children of the adopted granddaughter. I think she's
quite amazing!
Tia
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
saftety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Ben Franklin
leschke@...
Tia Leschke
> That teacher should read John Gatto's "Dumbing Us Down." Award winningteacher who despises the school system, advocates for home learning, and/or
massive reform of schools - mostly because of on teachers that end up
sounding like that passive-aggressive twit.
Absolutely! And "her children" (I'm assuming she means her class) are not
likely *all* advanced anyway. That's just so unlikely in a classroom.
Nice to hear from you as well as Maureen, Tim.
Tia
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
saftety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Ben Franklin
leschke@...
Christina Morrissey
Hey Grace...
Kudos for your daily efforts...just keep slugging away..
My only contribution would be to focus on those elements that your great
grand daughter liked about school. Probably the social..."playing with
friends." My 10 1/2 dd was taken out of public at the end of second grade
(7 1/2). Over the last 3 years she has had a number of complaints about
being at home. Its usually about not having any friends to play with or
not being with her friends. (They are either at school or doing homework!)
Translate that to mean, "being in the presence of kids or girls at least 7
hours a day." When I ask her about the specifics of those hours and what
would she be doing if she were in school and explain what the consequences
would be (homework, spelling tests, etc), she immediately states that she
wants nothing to do with that! She just wants the company! She would
prefer to have someone to play with 24 hours a day and this change has been
very hard for her.
Unlike her brother who has "buds" that have remained the same since he met
them, my daughter (girls?) doesn't seem to have that one or two loyal,
reliable friend(s) that she can always call upon in a time of need. She
feels insecure, shy and yet at the same time demanding of her
friends. Still very wet behind the ears in social skills, and feeling
still "odd-girl-out" being homeschooled, she feels at a disadvantage among
the neighborhood and her school friends . So they change every day and I
can see where that would be a relatively insecure social arena, unlike the
structure of public school (good or bad). So we discuss how we can make
that up in other ways, work around the school schedule with her school
friends, and try to meet other homeschool friends. But in the end I figure
there is only so much that can be done, and she will have to learn to be a
little more by herself and develop her own interests during those times
when other friends are not available.
Christina in Seattle
Kudos for your daily efforts...just keep slugging away..
My only contribution would be to focus on those elements that your great
grand daughter liked about school. Probably the social..."playing with
friends." My 10 1/2 dd was taken out of public at the end of second grade
(7 1/2). Over the last 3 years she has had a number of complaints about
being at home. Its usually about not having any friends to play with or
not being with her friends. (They are either at school or doing homework!)
Translate that to mean, "being in the presence of kids or girls at least 7
hours a day." When I ask her about the specifics of those hours and what
would she be doing if she were in school and explain what the consequences
would be (homework, spelling tests, etc), she immediately states that she
wants nothing to do with that! She just wants the company! She would
prefer to have someone to play with 24 hours a day and this change has been
very hard for her.
Unlike her brother who has "buds" that have remained the same since he met
them, my daughter (girls?) doesn't seem to have that one or two loyal,
reliable friend(s) that she can always call upon in a time of need. She
feels insecure, shy and yet at the same time demanding of her
friends. Still very wet behind the ears in social skills, and feeling
still "odd-girl-out" being homeschooled, she feels at a disadvantage among
the neighborhood and her school friends . So they change every day and I
can see where that would be a relatively insecure social arena, unlike the
structure of public school (good or bad). So we discuss how we can make
that up in other ways, work around the school schedule with her school
friends, and try to meet other homeschool friends. But in the end I figure
there is only so much that can be done, and she will have to learn to be a
little more by herself and develop her own interests during those times
when other friends are not available.
Christina in Seattle
><<Mainly I am curious to hear if anyone has taken young children out, >>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>