Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] practice, was my unschooling journey
Alan & Brenda Leonard
4/30/03 03:52:
It's a rare thing that he plays more than once a week. But, somehow, oddly
enough, the connections are made. I hear some sort of progress every single
time, and that completely blows that theory for me. I've seen the same
thing you've noted about handwriting, too, btw.
I practiced piano every day as a child and went through long, frustrating
"plateau" periods where I really made no progress whatsoever. I wonder if
my son instinctivly knows something that I don't about the proportion of
time spent to progress.
Maybe, just maybe, we (the world in general) have a LOT to learn about
neurology and neural connections and such. Anybody else?
brenda
> one of the things I've had a difficult time "deschooling" has beenI've always believed that, too. But my son doesn't play piano every day.
> handwriting. Being a piano player, I know that practice is needed in
> order to get the neural connections to be at a reflex level, in order
> to play well. I was thinking the same thing about the writing: lots
> of practice in order to form letters well...
It's a rare thing that he plays more than once a week. But, somehow, oddly
enough, the connections are made. I hear some sort of progress every single
time, and that completely blows that theory for me. I've seen the same
thing you've noted about handwriting, too, btw.
I practiced piano every day as a child and went through long, frustrating
"plateau" periods where I really made no progress whatsoever. I wonder if
my son instinctivly knows something that I don't about the proportion of
time spent to progress.
Maybe, just maybe, we (the world in general) have a LOT to learn about
neurology and neural connections and such. Anybody else?
brenda
Heidi
Okay, let's talk about this.
I had two years of piano, from age 14 to 16. This is where I learned
how to read music and do scales. I NEVER practiced during this time.
Well, I didn't practice my scales or things like that. But I
memorized, and made it completely and fully my own, the opening
measures of Mozart's Piano Sonata(?) in Cmaj. because I LIKED IT. It
was INTERESTING TO ME and I WANTED TO LEARN IT. So, I practiced THAT
every single solitary day.
Then, I went through a 10 year period where I was hardly ever near a
piano. Finally settled down, and we moved my piano from my mom's
house to my newly established, married household. I bought a book of
piano classics. One of the pieces in that music book was "Maple Leaf
Rag" a VERY complex work, with rapid chord changes and a ragtime
rhythm. I taught myself to play the first movement. How? My, was I
focused! L My poor family must have gone nuts, as I practiced the
same chords over and over and over and over for hours. Literally.
Well, we moved. It would have cost more to move that old piano than
it was worth, so we sold it. Another ten years passed. And just a
year or so ago, we bought a Clavinova. I LOVE IT. It came with a book
of songs, and one of those was!!! Maple Leaf Rag! LOL I sat down with
that music and in five minutes, was playing that first movement as if
I'd never gone away from it. It just took looking again at the music,
and putting my fingers in their proper places...and they flew.
I now have the whole piece down pat, and have memorized the first two
movements. it is so much fun to play, but getting it down meant hours
and hours of practice. Drove the poor fam nuts, again.
But now that I "own" that song...I haven't sat down to the piano
again with such intense focus.
What I'd like to say was happening is this: when I was interested in
learning it, the knowledge soaked in like a sponge. I tend to focus
on one thing at a time, so the intensity of learning a complex piece
of music isn't something I can do every day, or want to do every day.
When I'd gotten Maple Leaf Rag down, I walked away.
Your son is most likely doing the same thing: getting lots and lots
of info into his brain and his fingers during times of "soaking it
up" i.e. high interest in the project. When he isn't interested, his
brain isn't "on" so he doesn't as readily soak it up.
Does that make sense? If someone had told me "Learn this song" I'd
NEVER have done it. Because of picking it up on my own, out of
intense interest and desire to conquer it, it came to me. It's like
having the desire and the interest opens up the brain to taking in
the thing you're learning.
But it still took HOURS. I'm an adult. Kids are quicker. Promise.
Myelin sheathing on the brain cells.
OOH! something else to add to my "everything I ever learned" List! LOL
Heidi
--- In [email protected], Alan & Brenda Leonard
<abtleo@e...> wrote:
I had two years of piano, from age 14 to 16. This is where I learned
how to read music and do scales. I NEVER practiced during this time.
Well, I didn't practice my scales or things like that. But I
memorized, and made it completely and fully my own, the opening
measures of Mozart's Piano Sonata(?) in Cmaj. because I LIKED IT. It
was INTERESTING TO ME and I WANTED TO LEARN IT. So, I practiced THAT
every single solitary day.
Then, I went through a 10 year period where I was hardly ever near a
piano. Finally settled down, and we moved my piano from my mom's
house to my newly established, married household. I bought a book of
piano classics. One of the pieces in that music book was "Maple Leaf
Rag" a VERY complex work, with rapid chord changes and a ragtime
rhythm. I taught myself to play the first movement. How? My, was I
focused! L My poor family must have gone nuts, as I practiced the
same chords over and over and over and over for hours. Literally.
Well, we moved. It would have cost more to move that old piano than
it was worth, so we sold it. Another ten years passed. And just a
year or so ago, we bought a Clavinova. I LOVE IT. It came with a book
of songs, and one of those was!!! Maple Leaf Rag! LOL I sat down with
that music and in five minutes, was playing that first movement as if
I'd never gone away from it. It just took looking again at the music,
and putting my fingers in their proper places...and they flew.
I now have the whole piece down pat, and have memorized the first two
movements. it is so much fun to play, but getting it down meant hours
and hours of practice. Drove the poor fam nuts, again.
But now that I "own" that song...I haven't sat down to the piano
again with such intense focus.
What I'd like to say was happening is this: when I was interested in
learning it, the knowledge soaked in like a sponge. I tend to focus
on one thing at a time, so the intensity of learning a complex piece
of music isn't something I can do every day, or want to do every day.
When I'd gotten Maple Leaf Rag down, I walked away.
Your son is most likely doing the same thing: getting lots and lots
of info into his brain and his fingers during times of "soaking it
up" i.e. high interest in the project. When he isn't interested, his
brain isn't "on" so he doesn't as readily soak it up.
Does that make sense? If someone had told me "Learn this song" I'd
NEVER have done it. Because of picking it up on my own, out of
intense interest and desire to conquer it, it came to me. It's like
having the desire and the interest opens up the brain to taking in
the thing you're learning.
But it still took HOURS. I'm an adult. Kids are quicker. Promise.
Myelin sheathing on the brain cells.
OOH! something else to add to my "everything I ever learned" List! LOL
Heidi
--- In [email protected], Alan & Brenda Leonard
<abtleo@e...> wrote:
> 4/30/03 03:52:in
>
> > one of the things I've had a difficult time "deschooling" has been
> > handwriting. Being a piano player, I know that practice is needed
> > order to get the neural connections to be at a reflex level, inorder
> > to play well. I was thinking the same thing about the writing:lots
> > of practice in order to form letters well...every day.
>
> I've always believed that, too. But my son doesn't play piano
> It's a rare thing that he plays more than once a week. But,somehow, oddly
> enough, the connections are made. I hear some sort of progressevery single
> time, and that completely blows that theory for me. I've seen thesame
> thing you've noted about handwriting, too, btw.frustrating
>
> I practiced piano every day as a child and went through long,
> "plateau" periods where I really made no progress whatsoever. Iwonder if
> my son instinctivly knows something that I don't about theproportion of
> time spent to progress.about
>
> Maybe, just maybe, we (the world in general) have a LOT to learn
> neurology and neural connections and such. Anybody else?
>
> brenda
Tia Leschke
> Well, we moved. It would have cost more to move that old piano thanFunny. I played clarinet from age 10 to about 15, studied privately, etc.
> it was worth, so we sold it. Another ten years passed. And just a
> year or so ago, we bought a Clavinova. I LOVE IT. It came with a book
> of songs, and one of those was!!! Maple Leaf Rag! LOL I sat down with
> that music and in five minutes, was playing that first movement as if
> I'd never gone away from it. It just took looking again at the music,
> and putting my fingers in their proper places...and they flew.
I used to work on the Mozart concerto. I never played it well, but I could
play a lot of it. When my daughter started clarinet I showed her how to put
it together and stuff. Then I tried playing it. After a couple of minutes
of fooling around, the Mozart started to almost play itself. I couldn't
have told you what the actual notes were, but my fingers and ear remembered
how it should go.
Tia
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
saftety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Ben Franklin
leschke@...
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/30/2003 7:29:12 PM Central Daylight Time,
bunsofaluminum60@... writes:
recently found a bunch of new music for it online and I have learned about 17
different songs just since Friday. I'm having a ball playing it, and I even
did some duets with guitars at our camp-out last weekend.
My fingertips are RAW. The thumb joint in my left hand hurts like the
dickens, but just talking about it makes want to go in the next room and pick
it up again. There is nothing like being jazzed like that.
Tuck
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
bunsofaluminum60@... writes:
> But II took up ukulele this year. (Go ahead, LAUGH! That's why I chose it!) I
> memorized, and made it completely and fully my own, the opening
> measures of Mozart's Piano Sonata(?) in Cmaj. because I LIKED IT. It
> was INTERESTING TO ME and I WANTED TO LEARN IT. So, I practiced THAT
> every single solitary day.
>
recently found a bunch of new music for it online and I have learned about 17
different songs just since Friday. I'm having a ball playing it, and I even
did some duets with guitars at our camp-out last weekend.
My fingertips are RAW. The thumb joint in my left hand hurts like the
dickens, but just talking about it makes want to go in the next room and pick
it up again. There is nothing like being jazzed like that.
Tuck
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/30/03 4:02:12 PM, abtleo@... writes:
<< I practiced piano every day as a child and went through long, frustrating
"plateau" periods where I really made no progress whatsoever. I wonder if
my son instinctivly knows something that I don't about the proportion of
time spent to progress.
<<Maybe, just maybe, we (the world in general) have a LOT to learn about
neurology and neural connections and such. Anybody else?
lessons. The teacher tried half a dozen ways to convince her to stay and do
a lame-o day of presentations for nursing homes. (Last time, they cut one
short because people were falling asleep.)
One of the things the teacher said was because it's so physical, if she stops
for a while it will be starting completely over.
That makes no sense to me because my own life's experiences disprove it. I
might not play guitar for months, and when I pick it up I know everything I
knew the last time, including that my fingers are going to hurt after an
hour. We've put down recorders for a long time (my husband not as much, as
he tends to carry one around) and can still play when we pick them up. I can
sing a song I haven't sung for years, and still remember it.
It's possible that there is a genetic component that teachers won't take into
consideration because it keeps them from being the source and sole reason
someone can do music. And maybe in SOME cases someone forgets everything and
doesn't pick up again like riding a bike.
Things involving big muscles will be different, I'm sure. but the muscles I
use to play guitar get a lot of exercise from typing and braiding hair and
writing and messing with the yard.
I think it's more of discipline and suffering than any REAL demonstrable
reality.
Sandra
<< I practiced piano every day as a child and went through long, frustrating
"plateau" periods where I really made no progress whatsoever. I wonder if
my son instinctivly knows something that I don't about the proportion of
time spent to progress.
<<Maybe, just maybe, we (the world in general) have a LOT to learn about
neurology and neural connections and such. Anybody else?
>>Holly's just successfully negotiated a monthlong break from violin/fiddle
lessons. The teacher tried half a dozen ways to convince her to stay and do
a lame-o day of presentations for nursing homes. (Last time, they cut one
short because people were falling asleep.)
One of the things the teacher said was because it's so physical, if she stops
for a while it will be starting completely over.
That makes no sense to me because my own life's experiences disprove it. I
might not play guitar for months, and when I pick it up I know everything I
knew the last time, including that my fingers are going to hurt after an
hour. We've put down recorders for a long time (my husband not as much, as
he tends to carry one around) and can still play when we pick them up. I can
sing a song I haven't sung for years, and still remember it.
It's possible that there is a genetic component that teachers won't take into
consideration because it keeps them from being the source and sole reason
someone can do music. And maybe in SOME cases someone forgets everything and
doesn't pick up again like riding a bike.
Things involving big muscles will be different, I'm sure. but the muscles I
use to play guitar get a lot of exercise from typing and braiding hair and
writing and messing with the yard.
I think it's more of discipline and suffering than any REAL demonstrable
reality.
Sandra
Have a Nice Day!
Along these same lines, a friend and I had a discussion about early music education and late music education and the studies that say that early music education will get someone farther (sorry, I'm really stretching a paraphrase here).
My question to those who tout those studies is: Are there any studies done on adults who have just begun learning an instrument? Is there really any proof that starting later means you can't learn as well?
Don't jump on me about the studies :o). I don't care about studies anymore than anyone else does, except to refute someone else's touting of studies LOL.
But its interesting that people draw conclusions from these kinds of studies, when they aren't asking the right questions in the first place.
If an adult is interested in learning something (like Holt did with the cello), then that interest might propell them further than a child who isn't interested but is very talented.
Oh, and as far as neurology goes...I can tell you that there are *new* studies out there that say that neuro cells *can* be regenerated. It used to be thought that neurons just die and thats that. Now they are finding thats not really the case. In fact, and this from vague memory so don't quote me, I think they are finding that the old adage "if you don't use it, you lose it" is true (and so is its opposite).
I'll have to look it up to make sure.
Well, sorry for the ramble, just thinking out loud here.
Kristen
My question to those who tout those studies is: Are there any studies done on adults who have just begun learning an instrument? Is there really any proof that starting later means you can't learn as well?
Don't jump on me about the studies :o). I don't care about studies anymore than anyone else does, except to refute someone else's touting of studies LOL.
But its interesting that people draw conclusions from these kinds of studies, when they aren't asking the right questions in the first place.
If an adult is interested in learning something (like Holt did with the cello), then that interest might propell them further than a child who isn't interested but is very talented.
Oh, and as far as neurology goes...I can tell you that there are *new* studies out there that say that neuro cells *can* be regenerated. It used to be thought that neurons just die and thats that. Now they are finding thats not really the case. In fact, and this from vague memory so don't quote me, I think they are finding that the old adage "if you don't use it, you lose it" is true (and so is its opposite).
I'll have to look it up to make sure.
Well, sorry for the ramble, just thinking out loud here.
Kristen
----- Original Message -----
From: SandraDodd@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2003 2:08 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] practice, was my unschooling journey
In a message dated 4/30/03 4:02:12 PM, abtleo@... writes:
<< I practiced piano every day as a child and went through long, frustrating
"plateau" periods where I really made no progress whatsoever. I wonder if
my son instinctivly knows something that I don't about the proportion of
time spent to progress.
<<Maybe, just maybe, we (the world in general) have a LOT to learn about
neurology and neural connections and such. Anybody else?
>>
Holly's just successfully negotiated a monthlong break from violin/fiddle
lessons. The teacher tried half a dozen ways to convince her to stay and do
a lame-o day of presentations for nursing homes. (Last time, they cut one
short because people were falling asleep.)
One of the things the teacher said was because it's so physical, if she stops
for a while it will be starting completely over.
That makes no sense to me because my own life's experiences disprove it. I
might not play guitar for months, and when I pick it up I know everything I
knew the last time, including that my fingers are going to hurt after an
hour. We've put down recorders for a long time (my husband not as much, as
he tends to carry one around) and can still play when we pick them up. I can
sing a song I haven't sung for years, and still remember it.
It's possible that there is a genetic component that teachers won't take into
consideration because it keeps them from being the source and sole reason
someone can do music. And maybe in SOME cases someone forgets everything and
doesn't pick up again like riding a bike.
Things involving big muscles will be different, I'm sure. but the muscles I
use to play guitar get a lot of exercise from typing and braiding hair and
writing and messing with the yard.
I think it's more of discipline and suffering than any REAL demonstrable
reality.
Sandra
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Tia Leschke
> One of the things the teacher said was because it's so physical, if shestops
> for a while it will be starting completely over.I
>
> That makes no sense to me because my own life's experiences disprove it.
> might not play guitar for months, and when I pick it up I know everythingI
> knew the last time, including that my fingers are going to hurt after anas
> hour. We've put down recorders for a long time (my husband not as much,
> he tends to carry one around) and can still play when we pick them up. Ican
> sing a song I haven't sung for years, and still remember it.Yes, that argument is bogus. I think you do lose *some* when you don't play
for a while. I go through periods of not playing my horn. When I pick it
up, I can play. I just can't play with the same skill and finesse as when I
put it down. But it doesn't take long to get it back. And then there's the
example of the clarinet that I posted yesterday. That was after a period of
about 25 years!
>I
> Things involving big muscles will be different, I'm sure. but the muscles
> use to play guitar get a lot of exercise from typing and braiding hair andIt's not a matter so much of *exercising* the muscles, though, as the muscle
> writing and messing with the yard.
memory of *specific* movements that you lose when you don't play for a
while. I mean, my lips get lots of exercise talking, eating, and kissing
<g> when I'm not playing my horn, but I still lose the stamina and
flexibility I have when I play almost every day.
Tia
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
saftety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Ben Franklin
leschke@...
heidic40
from what I understand, the cells in children's brains are lacking
in a substance called Myelin. The myelin forms a sheath over the
axon (the arm part of a neuron, I think) at about puberty. This sort
of solidifies the connections that have been made, and makes it
harder to break them, or form new ones. Not impossible, though. I
learned a difficult piano piece in my early 40's :)
One theory I've heard about why there is a higher percentage of boys
who go further in math, than girls, is that schools are getting into
the higher mathematics at about puberty age FOR GIRLS (grade 7 and
8? does that sound right?) and that the myelinization of the brain
cells is beginning for girls just when more difficult cncepts are
coming to them via the system. Boys, otoh, are still pre-puberty for
the most part, in 7-8 grades, so the new concepts are being given to
brains that are more receptive.
anyway, that's one theory. Personally, I think...if you're gonna be
good at math, you're going to go farther in math than those who
aren't good at math. And it doesn't really matter, the age, either.
My brother was a C student, including math, and took a pre-algebra
course in college...and completely GOT IT, engineering level
mathematics, the formulas for graphing an inclined plane or what
EVER. He took math class after math class, and just plain GOT IT. In
his late 20's.
peace, HeidiC
--- In [email protected], Have a Nice Day!
<litlrooh@c...> wrote:
say that early music education will get someone farther (sorry, I'm
really stretching a paraphrase here).
Is there really any proof that starting later means you can't learn
as well?
in a substance called Myelin. The myelin forms a sheath over the
axon (the arm part of a neuron, I think) at about puberty. This sort
of solidifies the connections that have been made, and makes it
harder to break them, or form new ones. Not impossible, though. I
learned a difficult piano piece in my early 40's :)
One theory I've heard about why there is a higher percentage of boys
who go further in math, than girls, is that schools are getting into
the higher mathematics at about puberty age FOR GIRLS (grade 7 and
8? does that sound right?) and that the myelinization of the brain
cells is beginning for girls just when more difficult cncepts are
coming to them via the system. Boys, otoh, are still pre-puberty for
the most part, in 7-8 grades, so the new concepts are being given to
brains that are more receptive.
anyway, that's one theory. Personally, I think...if you're gonna be
good at math, you're going to go farther in math than those who
aren't good at math. And it doesn't really matter, the age, either.
My brother was a C student, including math, and took a pre-algebra
course in college...and completely GOT IT, engineering level
mathematics, the formulas for graphing an inclined plane or what
EVER. He took math class after math class, and just plain GOT IT. In
his late 20's.
peace, HeidiC
--- In [email protected], Have a Nice Day!
<litlrooh@c...> wrote:
> Along these same lines, a friend and I had a discussion aboutearly music education and late music education and the studies that
say that early music education will get someone farther (sorry, I'm
really stretching a paraphrase here).
>studies done on adults who have just begun learning an instrument?
> My question to those who tout those studies is: Are there any
Is there really any proof that starting later means you can't learn
as well?
>
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/1/03 11:02:20 AM, litlrooh@... writes:
<< Along these same lines, a friend and I had a discussion about early music
education and late music education and the studies that say that early music
education will get someone farther (sorry, I'm really stretching a paraphrase
here).
who started lately are new to it, but those who started earlier have more
years of experience."
Something brilliant like that. <bwg>
AND I'm guessing it came from either private teachers fishing for more
students, or school teachers fishing for more positions and funding.
Am I cynical?
Maybe.
I learned to read music when I was five, though, so early that I don't recall
much of HOW I learned, but I'm pretty good at it. It seems natural. I quit
taking lessons while I was six but picked it all up again at ten (or rather
kept messing with the books I had, studying the hymnals at church). Yet I'm
not a great musician. But I like it a lot and am busier with it than most
non-musicians. <g> (Non professionals, I guess I mean.)
So it's hypocritical for me to say it doesn't matter. No telling, from my
personal experience. But as to who would cite stats and when, it would be
someone wanting money or a job, and I doubt they're studying ANYONE past high
school age.
Sandra
<< Along these same lines, a friend and I had a discussion about early music
education and late music education and the studies that say that early music
education will get someone farther (sorry, I'm really stretching a paraphrase
here).
>>I'm guessing they were looking at kids at 15 or 16 and saying "Huh! Those
who started lately are new to it, but those who started earlier have more
years of experience."
Something brilliant like that. <bwg>
AND I'm guessing it came from either private teachers fishing for more
students, or school teachers fishing for more positions and funding.
Am I cynical?
Maybe.
I learned to read music when I was five, though, so early that I don't recall
much of HOW I learned, but I'm pretty good at it. It seems natural. I quit
taking lessons while I was six but picked it all up again at ten (or rather
kept messing with the books I had, studying the hymnals at church). Yet I'm
not a great musician. But I like it a lot and am busier with it than most
non-musicians. <g> (Non professionals, I guess I mean.)
So it's hypocritical for me to say it doesn't matter. No telling, from my
personal experience. But as to who would cite stats and when, it would be
someone wanting money or a job, and I doubt they're studying ANYONE past high
school age.
Sandra