Math phobia, again
gruvystarchild
Glena,
You say you never got a direct "NO" about the math and kept pushing,
and yet THIS was your first post on the topic:
"So I have the conversation about what you are going to do with your
life and
get the usual response that they are going to go to college and
become a
doctor. Always the same answer since this child was five. I expected
it
would change somewhere along the line but it hasn't. So am I helping
prepare
her to meet her dreams and hopes for the future?
I think I probably am, except maybe in math which she seems to lack
much
interest in so I don't bring it up. We've studied latin together,
we've
studied so much together actually BUT you HAVE to be strong in math
to get in
a premed program, you just have too.
So, I tell her maybe she would want to look at some Algebra stuff
that I
bought for the computer. And she doesn't. So I suggest maybe she look
online and see what kind of stuff google will offer her with the
typing of
Algebra. She doesn't care.
Then I have to go into a lengthy discussion that while I don't care
if she
ever learns algebra or not, that SHE wants to go to medical school
and at
some point if she can't bring herself to learn math she's just not
going to
see that dream realized, which is fine by me, but I want her to know
the
facts."
This sounds to me like a Mom that is pushing.
THAT is what we were responding to.
You also said that you hoped a book I suggested would MAKE her want
math. It was all about what you thought she needed and hoping she'd
learn a certain thing.
The fact that you keep using your dd's math resistance as ammo
against this list is more than slightly frustrating, in light of what
you wrote.
Strewing their paths is not about what we WANT them to absorb.
It's just about living interesting lives and sharing our passions
with each other.
I don't try to get math into my kids but I do expose them to lots of
opportunities.
There is a world of difference.
Can you not see that?
You say you never got a direct "NO" about the math and kept pushing,
and yet THIS was your first post on the topic:
"So I have the conversation about what you are going to do with your
life and
get the usual response that they are going to go to college and
become a
doctor. Always the same answer since this child was five. I expected
it
would change somewhere along the line but it hasn't. So am I helping
prepare
her to meet her dreams and hopes for the future?
I think I probably am, except maybe in math which she seems to lack
much
interest in so I don't bring it up. We've studied latin together,
we've
studied so much together actually BUT you HAVE to be strong in math
to get in
a premed program, you just have too.
So, I tell her maybe she would want to look at some Algebra stuff
that I
bought for the computer. And she doesn't. So I suggest maybe she look
online and see what kind of stuff google will offer her with the
typing of
Algebra. She doesn't care.
Then I have to go into a lengthy discussion that while I don't care
if she
ever learns algebra or not, that SHE wants to go to medical school
and at
some point if she can't bring herself to learn math she's just not
going to
see that dream realized, which is fine by me, but I want her to know
the
facts."
This sounds to me like a Mom that is pushing.
THAT is what we were responding to.
You also said that you hoped a book I suggested would MAKE her want
math. It was all about what you thought she needed and hoping she'd
learn a certain thing.
The fact that you keep using your dd's math resistance as ammo
against this list is more than slightly frustrating, in light of what
you wrote.
Strewing their paths is not about what we WANT them to absorb.
It's just about living interesting lives and sharing our passions
with each other.
I don't try to get math into my kids but I do expose them to lots of
opportunities.
There is a world of difference.
Can you not see that?
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/26/2003 1:37:01 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
starsuncloud@... writes:
around or buying a book of poetry and laying it around or a book about
science or a computer game about art and laying it around.
I really don't. Guess I'm just jealous that some of your children LOVE math
and I can't give that to my child and math IS important in the real world,
there is no denying it.
She wasn't interested, yep, I made that clear. My frustration and some of
you understood that and the responses I received helped, some didn't get it
and that's OK too.
It wasn't about pushing because I clearly said I didn't/don't. It WAS about
wanting to find ways to foster a love of something that is inevitably
important at some point in life, you can argue that if you choose but it's
important if she's going to college and she says she is.
Now, I KNOW now that math can be learned all at one time and not in layers,
it doesn't concern me, I WISH I had instilled a love of math in some great
fun way, but I haven't. I don't know how. I haven't found any great fun
love of math myself to model for her. I have found some new ways to lay
around and share with her but I'm not in the panic mode I was before.
I still wish I knew some magic math fun but I'm not panicking that I will
have failed her as a mother by not introducing her to it and helping her to
understand and love it.
glena
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
starsuncloud@... writes:
> Strewing their paths is not about what we WANT them to absorb.I don't see the difference in buying a math computer game and laying it
> It's just about living interesting lives and sharing our passions
> with each other.
> I don't try to get math into my kids but I do expose them to lots of
> opportunities.
> There is a world of difference.
> Can you not see that?
>
around or buying a book of poetry and laying it around or a book about
science or a computer game about art and laying it around.
I really don't. Guess I'm just jealous that some of your children LOVE math
and I can't give that to my child and math IS important in the real world,
there is no denying it.
She wasn't interested, yep, I made that clear. My frustration and some of
you understood that and the responses I received helped, some didn't get it
and that's OK too.
It wasn't about pushing because I clearly said I didn't/don't. It WAS about
wanting to find ways to foster a love of something that is inevitably
important at some point in life, you can argue that if you choose but it's
important if she's going to college and she says she is.
Now, I KNOW now that math can be learned all at one time and not in layers,
it doesn't concern me, I WISH I had instilled a love of math in some great
fun way, but I haven't. I don't know how. I haven't found any great fun
love of math myself to model for her. I have found some new ways to lay
around and share with her but I'm not in the panic mode I was before.
I still wish I knew some magic math fun but I'm not panicking that I will
have failed her as a mother by not introducing her to it and helping her to
understand and love it.
glena
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
> I still wish I knew some magic math fun but I'm not panicking that I willHere is one my son uses some times and there is also a movie on this site. I
> have failed her as a mother by not introducing her to it and helping her to
>
> understand and love it.
>
> glena
dont know what group this came through but I play it also.
<A HREF="http://www.missmaggie.org/">http://www.missmaggie.org/</A>
I just went to the site one day and he came over asking to play too. The 3
yr. old watched the movie and played also.
Laura
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Tim and Maureen
----- Original Message -----
From: rubyprincesstsg@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, April 28, 2003 7:11 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Math phobia, again
<I don't see the difference in buying a math computer game and laying it
around or buying a book of poetry and laying it around or a book about
science or a computer game about art and laying it around.>
I don't think the issue is laying the computer game out to be seen. The issue is that math is your issue not hers. If you want to foster a love or get her to be exposed go explore math yourself and do it for yourself not with the intent of manipulting her to like it. It seems like you are having trouble hearing on this topic. Explore within yourself why you want her to have math. Unschooling philosophy believes she will do it when it is important to her. This math thing to me sounds like your own insecurities or your fears for her or your dreams tied up in her life. Just a thought.
Maureen
I really don't. Guess I'm just jealous that some of your children LOVE math
and I can't give that to my child and math IS important in the real world,
there is no denying it.
She wasn't interested, yep, I made that clear. My frustration and some of
you understood that and the responses I received helped, some didn't get it
and that's OK too.
It wasn't about pushing because I clearly said I didn't/don't. It WAS about
wanting to find ways to foster a love of something that is inevitably
important at some point in life, you can argue that if you choose but it's
important if she's going to college and she says she is.
Now, I KNOW now that math can be learned all at one time and not in layers,
it doesn't concern me, I WISH I had instilled a love of math in some great
fun way, but I haven't. I don't know how. I haven't found any great fun
love of math myself to model for her. I have found some new ways to lay
around and share with her but I'm not in the panic mode I was before.
I still wish I knew some magic math fun but I'm not panicking that I will
have failed her as a mother by not introducing her to it and helping her to
understand and love it.
glena
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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[email protected]
In a message dated 4/28/2003 1:42:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
tmthomas@... writes:
would know. I never had a love of math, even though it WAS something I HAD
to learn.
I hear that you have things strewn around for your children to explore and
experience, things that you either KNOW your children are already interested
in or HOPE they might enjoy. AND (and I know you don't start a sentence with
a preposition but like I explained to my lit teacher, writing is a STYLE all
do it differently) when they show an interest in something, we/you foster
that interest and hopefully they are doing it because the LOVE/LIKE it and
WANT to do it.
That's still the point some aren't understanding. Some have and responded
very with very helpful advice.
It's about FOSTERING a LOVE of math. Of course at some point she is going to
learn it and I would hope, even if it's because she HAS to, that she won't
have such reservations to think it a horrible chore. Hopefully because it's
something that at some point there was FUN in learning.
Sure, I've HEARD all about how when/if she HAS to learn it, she will but I
want more for her than that. I want her to have a love of all things
learning, not just because down the road it's a means to an end. That's the
way I learned. I learned because it was expected, required, mandatory, not
for the LOVE of learning.
No matter if it's poetry or algebra, art or geometry I want her to be able to
embrace each part of learning with enjoyment of absorbing and learning
something new.
I just didn't have any idea how MATH could possibly be FUN or enjoyable and
not just a task to be completed or learned. Others apparently KNOW how to
make math fun and to even LOVE math, that maybe is MY problem. Wanting her
to LOVE EVERY aspect of learning, even the things you need/want/have to learn
later in life to reach your goals.
I guess I just am not very good at explaining because I feel like I've tried
over and over again and for some that understand there is someone else who
thinks because I wanted to know what FUN things you do with MATH and want my
child to LOVE it when she chooses to do it that I'm being pushy.
I do thank those who for whatever reason are able to understand my point and
I thank you for the links and the suggestions and the advice you have
offered. Lots of things about math I have never been exposed to and lots of
good FUN things that will come in handy when she wants it. Not just a
horrible textbook that's hard to understand!
glena
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
tmthomas@... writes:
> If you want to foster a love or get her to be exposed go explore mathI don't WANT to explore math if I did it would be artificial and fake, she
> yourself and do it for yourself not with the intent of manipulting her to
> like it. It seems like you are having trouble hearing on this topic.
> Explore
would know. I never had a love of math, even though it WAS something I HAD
to learn.
I hear that you have things strewn around for your children to explore and
experience, things that you either KNOW your children are already interested
in or HOPE they might enjoy. AND (and I know you don't start a sentence with
a preposition but like I explained to my lit teacher, writing is a STYLE all
do it differently) when they show an interest in something, we/you foster
that interest and hopefully they are doing it because the LOVE/LIKE it and
WANT to do it.
That's still the point some aren't understanding. Some have and responded
very with very helpful advice.
It's about FOSTERING a LOVE of math. Of course at some point she is going to
learn it and I would hope, even if it's because she HAS to, that she won't
have such reservations to think it a horrible chore. Hopefully because it's
something that at some point there was FUN in learning.
Sure, I've HEARD all about how when/if she HAS to learn it, she will but I
want more for her than that. I want her to have a love of all things
learning, not just because down the road it's a means to an end. That's the
way I learned. I learned because it was expected, required, mandatory, not
for the LOVE of learning.
No matter if it's poetry or algebra, art or geometry I want her to be able to
embrace each part of learning with enjoyment of absorbing and learning
something new.
I just didn't have any idea how MATH could possibly be FUN or enjoyable and
not just a task to be completed or learned. Others apparently KNOW how to
make math fun and to even LOVE math, that maybe is MY problem. Wanting her
to LOVE EVERY aspect of learning, even the things you need/want/have to learn
later in life to reach your goals.
I guess I just am not very good at explaining because I feel like I've tried
over and over again and for some that understand there is someone else who
thinks because I wanted to know what FUN things you do with MATH and want my
child to LOVE it when she chooses to do it that I'm being pushy.
I do thank those who for whatever reason are able to understand my point and
I thank you for the links and the suggestions and the advice you have
offered. Lots of things about math I have never been exposed to and lots of
good FUN things that will come in handy when she wants it. Not just a
horrible textbook that's hard to understand!
glena
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
nellebelle
----- snip----- I want her to have a love of all things
fascinate me, and some bore me. Accept that in your daughter.
She may never need/want/care about more than very basic arithmetic to
balance her checkbook or do grocery shopping. She may someday get excited
about math and become a mathematician. Or something in between. She won't
NOT become a mathematician just because you didn't expose her to a FUN MATH!
computer game.
Mary Ellen
> learning, not just because down the road it's a means to an end.>>>>>>>We are all unique. Nobody loves everything. Some things interest me, some
fascinate me, and some bore me. Accept that in your daughter.
She may never need/want/care about more than very basic arithmetic to
balance her checkbook or do grocery shopping. She may someday get excited
about math and become a mathematician. Or something in between. She won't
NOT become a mathematician just because you didn't expose her to a FUN MATH!
computer game.
Mary Ellen
jmcseals SEALS
**** I want her to have a love of all things learning, not just because down
the road it's a means to an end. <<snip>> No matter if it's poetry or
algebra, art or geometry I want her to be able to
embrace each part of learning with enjoyment of absorbing and learning
something new.>>>snip<<< Others apparently KNOW how to
make math fun and to even LOVE math, that maybe is MY problem. Wanting her
to LOVE EVERY aspect of learning, even the things you need/want/have to
learn later in life to reach your goals.*****
What I think you are missing is that no one loves every aspect of learning.
EVEN when they WANT to learn it. I love food. Most of the time I love
cooking it, too. I want to learn more about cooking and healthy eating, but
I don't always enjoy every little aspect of it. I don't like cleaning the
dishes! I don't like how messy my kitchen gets just to cook a decent meal.
That doesn't stop me from wanting to learn better eating habits, better
recipes, etc.
I think it is highly unrealistic to want anyone to LOVE EVERY aspect of
learning. Even in the best of unschooling situations, completely child-led,
the child will come across something he doesn't enjoy, much less LOVE!
Sometimes, it IS the means to an end! I think perservering through the
yucky spots helps us take even more pride in our success!
If you can stop your brain tape of (Oh ick, how Dr. Phil of me!) what YOU
want for HER to love then you can begin to allow HER to find what SHE loves.
Does that make sense? I don't know how else to say it to help you
understand, I'm sorry.
Just hang in there and keep listening. Grab a pen and paper and write down
all YOUR wants, needs, desires for her and go back and see if it is in YOUR
interest, or hers. I think you may be a bit surprised.
We all want the best for our children. I think it is important to
understand they aren't us though. They can't make up for our failures,
shorcomings or relive our lives for us. It is perfectly ok to want better
for our children, but we have to stop our own brain baggage and let them
find their own way. She may very well grow up HATING math! What would that
mean to you? Does that mean she failed? Does that mean YOU failed? What
if she absorbs herself in writing and becomes an author someday, instead of
a doctor? She'll only need enough math to balance her checkbook and count
change and that should pretty well cover any other math skills needed for
the average person on an average day. I don't think that is such a bad
thing. I wonder if you do, though?
Jennifer
_________________________________________________________________
MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
the road it's a means to an end. <<snip>> No matter if it's poetry or
algebra, art or geometry I want her to be able to
embrace each part of learning with enjoyment of absorbing and learning
something new.>>>snip<<< Others apparently KNOW how to
make math fun and to even LOVE math, that maybe is MY problem. Wanting her
to LOVE EVERY aspect of learning, even the things you need/want/have to
learn later in life to reach your goals.*****
What I think you are missing is that no one loves every aspect of learning.
EVEN when they WANT to learn it. I love food. Most of the time I love
cooking it, too. I want to learn more about cooking and healthy eating, but
I don't always enjoy every little aspect of it. I don't like cleaning the
dishes! I don't like how messy my kitchen gets just to cook a decent meal.
That doesn't stop me from wanting to learn better eating habits, better
recipes, etc.
I think it is highly unrealistic to want anyone to LOVE EVERY aspect of
learning. Even in the best of unschooling situations, completely child-led,
the child will come across something he doesn't enjoy, much less LOVE!
Sometimes, it IS the means to an end! I think perservering through the
yucky spots helps us take even more pride in our success!
If you can stop your brain tape of (Oh ick, how Dr. Phil of me!) what YOU
want for HER to love then you can begin to allow HER to find what SHE loves.
Does that make sense? I don't know how else to say it to help you
understand, I'm sorry.
Just hang in there and keep listening. Grab a pen and paper and write down
all YOUR wants, needs, desires for her and go back and see if it is in YOUR
interest, or hers. I think you may be a bit surprised.
We all want the best for our children. I think it is important to
understand they aren't us though. They can't make up for our failures,
shorcomings or relive our lives for us. It is perfectly ok to want better
for our children, but we have to stop our own brain baggage and let them
find their own way. She may very well grow up HATING math! What would that
mean to you? Does that mean she failed? Does that mean YOU failed? What
if she absorbs herself in writing and becomes an author someday, instead of
a doctor? She'll only need enough math to balance her checkbook and count
change and that should pretty well cover any other math skills needed for
the average person on an average day. I don't think that is such a bad
thing. I wonder if you do, though?
Jennifer
_________________________________________________________________
MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*.
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/28/03 12:27:28 PM, rubyprincesstsg@... writes:
<< Of course at some point she is going to
learn it and I would hope, even if it's because she HAS to, that she won't
have such reservations to think it a horrible chore. >>
What makes you think she will?
Did you?
Was it a chore?
Your attitude toward math, if you decide solidly NOT to try to change your
attitude toward math, will be apparent to your daughter.
<<That's still the point some aren't understanding. >>
Tiresome.
<<No matter if it's poetry or algebra, art or geometry I want her to be able
to
embrace each part of learning with enjoyment of absorbing and learning
something new.>>
What if it's tree pollen or the Napoleonic Wars or macrame or calypso?
You're still very schoolish in your thinking and many people have tried many
ways to point that out to you.
<< Others apparently KNOW how to
make math fun and to even LOVE math, that maybe is MY problem. >>
It's your problem, but you're looking at the wrong solutions.
<I guess I just am not very good at explaining because I feel like I've tried
over and over again>>
It's not that you're not explaining well, it's that you're trying to write
what others want to hear without doing what others think you need to do,
which is post less and BE with your kids more. See what they're already
doing, and disassemble the model in your head which has lists of things you
think they need to learn. Whether they love it or not, whether they wait
until they "need" to know it or not, those aren't the issues. The issue is
your own need to deschool yourself, to come to a new model of learning inside
your own mind and your own soul.
Your explanations are pretty clear, but you're having a hard time seeing them
the way others are seeing them. No matter how many words I spin to describe
to you the German Shepherd we own, and how much I'm SURE it's a German
Shepherd and yes, I'm proud to own one, fact that the dog we have is actually
an Australian Cattle Dog. Ten or twenty similarities don't make it what
it's not. Me saying "Well, I guess I know my own dog better than anyone
else" wouldn't change the delusion.
Sandra
<< Of course at some point she is going to
learn it and I would hope, even if it's because she HAS to, that she won't
have such reservations to think it a horrible chore. >>
What makes you think she will?
Did you?
Was it a chore?
Your attitude toward math, if you decide solidly NOT to try to change your
attitude toward math, will be apparent to your daughter.
<<That's still the point some aren't understanding. >>
Tiresome.
<<No matter if it's poetry or algebra, art or geometry I want her to be able
to
embrace each part of learning with enjoyment of absorbing and learning
something new.>>
What if it's tree pollen or the Napoleonic Wars or macrame or calypso?
You're still very schoolish in your thinking and many people have tried many
ways to point that out to you.
<< Others apparently KNOW how to
make math fun and to even LOVE math, that maybe is MY problem. >>
It's your problem, but you're looking at the wrong solutions.
<I guess I just am not very good at explaining because I feel like I've tried
over and over again>>
It's not that you're not explaining well, it's that you're trying to write
what others want to hear without doing what others think you need to do,
which is post less and BE with your kids more. See what they're already
doing, and disassemble the model in your head which has lists of things you
think they need to learn. Whether they love it or not, whether they wait
until they "need" to know it or not, those aren't the issues. The issue is
your own need to deschool yourself, to come to a new model of learning inside
your own mind and your own soul.
Your explanations are pretty clear, but you're having a hard time seeing them
the way others are seeing them. No matter how many words I spin to describe
to you the German Shepherd we own, and how much I'm SURE it's a German
Shepherd and yes, I'm proud to own one, fact that the dog we have is actually
an Australian Cattle Dog. Ten or twenty similarities don't make it what
it's not. Me saying "Well, I guess I know my own dog better than anyone
else" wouldn't change the delusion.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/28/2003 10:17:33 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
rubyprincesstsg@... writes:
Maybe one day I will. Maybe not.
Will the lack of love for Shakespeare hinder my life?. No. (And I do get many
of the jokes! <g> 'cause I DID suffer through reading it!)
Why is it important to YOU that she love math? Can she be passionate about
other things (and never math) and it still be OK? Some people just don't like
math. Some people just hate grammar. I'm the Grammar Nazi. What if *I* decide
that everyone should LOVE grammar? Where does that put everyone who HATES it
---or is indifferent to it?
Some people love math. Some don't. Whether they're unschooled or not. Or
whether they have YEARS of schooling behind them. Will more kids learn to
love math by being unschooled? Maybe. But it doesn't really matter. Let her
love what she loves.
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
rubyprincesstsg@... writes:
> Now, I KNOW now that math can be learned all at one time and not in layers,Do you think it's important for someone to LOVE Shakespeare? Because I don't.
> it doesn't concern me, I WISH I had instilled a love of math in some great
> fun way, but I haven't. I don't know how. I haven't found any great fun
> love of math myself to model for her. I have found some new ways to lay
> around and share with her but I'm not in the panic mode I was before.
Maybe one day I will. Maybe not.
Will the lack of love for Shakespeare hinder my life?. No. (And I do get many
of the jokes! <g> 'cause I DID suffer through reading it!)
Why is it important to YOU that she love math? Can she be passionate about
other things (and never math) and it still be OK? Some people just don't like
math. Some people just hate grammar. I'm the Grammar Nazi. What if *I* decide
that everyone should LOVE grammar? Where does that put everyone who HATES it
---or is indifferent to it?
Some people love math. Some don't. Whether they're unschooled or not. Or
whether they have YEARS of schooling behind them. Will more kids learn to
love math by being unschooled? Maybe. But it doesn't really matter. Let her
love what she loves.
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
sorcha_aisling
Glena,
Maybe thinking about it like this will help (yes, I'm endlessly full
of analogies):
Schools are making gingerbread cookies
Unschoolers are making chocolate chip cookies
Ginger is teaching what you think kids should learn
Chocolate chips are interesting things you strew their paths with
You keep asking us when we're going to add the ginger, and how to add
the ginger, and how much ginger to add, and how to avoid adding so
much ginger that they're inedible. We're answering that we don't add
ginger at all. We stir in some chocolate chips now and then, but
they have a different flavor than ginger. You keep insisting that at
some point these cookies will need ginger. And gingerbread cookies
will. But chocolate chip cookies never will. You can't get past
wondering how the ginger will get in there if you don't add it.
Sorcha
Maybe thinking about it like this will help (yes, I'm endlessly full
of analogies):
Schools are making gingerbread cookies
Unschoolers are making chocolate chip cookies
Ginger is teaching what you think kids should learn
Chocolate chips are interesting things you strew their paths with
You keep asking us when we're going to add the ginger, and how to add
the ginger, and how much ginger to add, and how to avoid adding so
much ginger that they're inedible. We're answering that we don't add
ginger at all. We stir in some chocolate chips now and then, but
they have a different flavor than ginger. You keep insisting that at
some point these cookies will need ginger. And gingerbread cookies
will. But chocolate chip cookies never will. You can't get past
wondering how the ginger will get in there if you don't add it.
Sorcha
coyote's corner
wow, that's great!!
Thanks so much.
Janis
Thanks so much.
Janis
----- Original Message -----
From: sorcha_aisling
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, April 28, 2003 5:02 PM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Math phobia, again
Glena,
Maybe thinking about it like this will help (yes, I'm endlessly full
of analogies):
Schools are making gingerbread cookies
Unschoolers are making chocolate chip cookies
Ginger is teaching what you think kids should learn
Chocolate chips are interesting things you strew their paths with
You keep asking us when we're going to add the ginger, and how to add
the ginger, and how much ginger to add, and how to avoid adding so
much ginger that they're inedible. We're answering that we don't add
ginger at all. We stir in some chocolate chips now and then, but
they have a different flavor than ginger. You keep insisting that at
some point these cookies will need ginger. And gingerbread cookies
will. But chocolate chip cookies never will. You can't get past
wondering how the ginger will get in there if you don't add it.
Sorcha
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In a message dated 4/28/03 2:49:21 PM, kbcdlovejo@... writes:
<< I'm the Grammar Nazi. What if *I* decide
that everyone should LOVE grammar? Where does that put everyone who HATES it
---or is indifferent to it? >>
Watching Shakespeare videos, confident that you'll stay away from that?
Sandra, who watched part of "Much Ado About Nothing" JUST for fun
<< I'm the Grammar Nazi. What if *I* decide
that everyone should LOVE grammar? Where does that put everyone who HATES it
---or is indifferent to it? >>
Watching Shakespeare videos, confident that you'll stay away from that?
Sandra, who watched part of "Much Ado About Nothing" JUST for fun
Have a Nice Day!
It's about FOSTERING a LOVE of math. <<<<<
Well, yes and no. Your job is to EXPOSE her to things by being interested yourself, but its up to HER to decide if she's interested or not.
There is nothing wrong with learning it just becuase it fills a practical need. Why does it HAVE to be more than that? Why is learning solely for a practical need "less than"? Do you LOVE Grocery shopping? I don't. It fills a practical need and thats about it. But there ARE people who love to grocery shop becasue they also love to cook and they love to plan that for themselves and their families, or the love to be thrifty and see how much they can save.
But here again...this is what YOU want. YOU want her to have a love of all things learning......
This is what you are not getting. If you are going to unschool successfully you've got to stop projecting what YOU want onto her and accept what SHE wants even if it means she NEVER cares about math, other than to fill a practical need in her life.
Kristen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Well, yes and no. Your job is to EXPOSE her to things by being interested yourself, but its up to HER to decide if she's interested or not.
>>Sure, I've HEARD all about how when/if she HAS to learn it, she will but Iwant more for her than that.<<<
There is nothing wrong with learning it just becuase it fills a practical need. Why does it HAVE to be more than that? Why is learning solely for a practical need "less than"? Do you LOVE Grocery shopping? I don't. It fills a practical need and thats about it. But there ARE people who love to grocery shop becasue they also love to cook and they love to plan that for themselves and their families, or the love to be thrifty and see how much they can save.
>>I want her to have a love of all thingslearning, not just because down the road it's a means to an end. <<<
But here again...this is what YOU want. YOU want her to have a love of all things learning......
This is what you are not getting. If you are going to unschool successfully you've got to stop projecting what YOU want onto her and accept what SHE wants even if it means she NEVER cares about math, other than to fill a practical need in her life.
Kristen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Have a Nice Day!
I've tried
over and over again and for some that understand there is someone else who
thinks because I wanted to know what FUN things you do with MATH and want my
child to LOVE it when she chooses to do it that I'm being pushy.<<<
She has indicated that she is NOT interested but you keep seeking ideas about math. Why? Why do you have to have these ideas now? Why not wait until she IS interested, and then you won't NEED our ideas! She'll have ideas of her OWN.
Anything other than total acceptance of her disinterest IS being pushy.
Kristen
over and over again and for some that understand there is someone else who
thinks because I wanted to know what FUN things you do with MATH and want my
child to LOVE it when she chooses to do it that I'm being pushy.<<<
She has indicated that she is NOT interested but you keep seeking ideas about math. Why? Why do you have to have these ideas now? Why not wait until she IS interested, and then you won't NEED our ideas! She'll have ideas of her OWN.
Anything other than total acceptance of her disinterest IS being pushy.
Kristen
----- Original Message -----
From: rubyprincesstsg@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, April 28, 2003 2:23 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Math phobia, again
In a message dated 4/28/2003 1:42:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
tmthomas@... writes:
> If you want to foster a love or get her to be exposed go explore math
> yourself and do it for yourself not with the intent of manipulting her to
> like it. It seems like you are having trouble hearing on this topic.
> Explore
I don't WANT to explore math if I did it would be artificial and fake, she
would know. I never had a love of math, even though it WAS something I HAD
to learn.
I hear that you have things strewn around for your children to explore and
experience, things that you either KNOW your children are already interested
in or HOPE they might enjoy. AND (and I know you don't start a sentence with
a preposition but like I explained to my lit teacher, writing is a STYLE all
do it differently) when they show an interest in something, we/you foster
that interest and hopefully they are doing it because the LOVE/LIKE it and
WANT to do it.
That's still the point some aren't understanding. Some have and responded
very with very helpful advice.
It's about FOSTERING a LOVE of math. Of course at some point she is going to
learn it and I would hope, even if it's because she HAS to, that she won't
have such reservations to think it a horrible chore. Hopefully because it's
something that at some point there was FUN in learning.
Sure, I've HEARD all about how when/if she HAS to learn it, she will but I
want more for her than that. I want her to have a love of all things
learning, not just because down the road it's a means to an end. That's the
way I learned. I learned because it was expected, required, mandatory, not
for the LOVE of learning.
No matter if it's poetry or algebra, art or geometry I want her to be able to
embrace each part of learning with enjoyment of absorbing and learning
something new.
I just didn't have any idea how MATH could possibly be FUN or enjoyable and
not just a task to be completed or learned. Others apparently KNOW how to
make math fun and to even LOVE math, that maybe is MY problem. Wanting her
to LOVE EVERY aspect of learning, even the things you need/want/have to learn
later in life to reach your goals.
I guess I just am not very good at explaining because I feel like I've tried
over and over again and for some that understand there is someone else who
thinks because I wanted to know what FUN things you do with MATH and want my
child to LOVE it when she chooses to do it that I'm being pushy.
I do thank those who for whatever reason are able to understand my point and
I thank you for the links and the suggestions and the advice you have
offered. Lots of things about math I have never been exposed to and lots of
good FUN things that will come in handy when she wants it. Not just a
horrible textbook that's hard to understand!
glena
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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In a message dated 4/28/2003 5:03:30 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
sorcha-aisling@... writes:
Maybe instead of completely different types of cookies, they are the slice
and bakes or microwaved instead of a conventional oven.
Isn't in the end the result/goal the same? Happy productive citizens? I
don't agree with HOW they do it in school, or I guess I'd have them educating
my children, but it's that it is DONE differently, not truly a different
animal is it?
Actually it's not DONE at all, it's child led but it's still learning just in
a different better way (much better).
I'm not disputing or arguing your analogy, just sharing with you what I am
thinking so maybe you can see the flaw in my thinking and share with me about
being a better facilitator of unschooling for my daughter.
Kinda like "this" is how I am seeing it, what exactly is the difference. I
see it as sorta the same end, as in children grow up, go on to college or to
their futures as whatever they choose to be and they are gonna get there,
nothing is going to change that, but the way they end up there makes a big
difference.
Gingerbread or chocolate chips? Maybe, but I'm just see it as a different
way, a much better way of course but the goal is learning isn't it? Just the
unschooling way turns out much better chocolate chips with much less burning
and scorching and pain than the schooling cookies, they all may not look as
uniform as the ones sliced from the roll, but they are SO much better even if
it takes a different route to get them that way.
OK, I'm going to bed, it was a LONG, but great weekend and I think I am
rambling and making no sense, even to myself... sorry...
Thanks again for making me THINK, I LOVE it!
glena
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
sorcha-aisling@... writes:
> Glena,see the comparison, but I'm trying to get it.
>
> Maybe thinking about it like this will help (yes, I'm endlessly full
> of analogies):
> Schools are making gingerbread cookies
> Unschoolers are making chocolate chip cookies
> Ginger is teaching what you think kids should learn
> Chocolate chips are interesting things you strew their paths with
> You keep asking us when we're going to add the ginger, and how to add
> the ginger, and how much ginger to add, and how to avoid adding so
> much ginger that they're inedible. We're answering that we don't add
> ginger at all. We stir in some chocolate chips now and then, but
> they have a different flavor than ginger. You keep insisting that at
> some point these cookies will need ginger. And gingerbread cookies
> will. But chocolate chip cookies never will. You can't get past
> wondering how the ginger will get in there if you don't add it.
>
> Sorcha
>
> Thanks for the food for thought, I've been thinking about it but can't yet
Maybe instead of completely different types of cookies, they are the slice
and bakes or microwaved instead of a conventional oven.
Isn't in the end the result/goal the same? Happy productive citizens? I
don't agree with HOW they do it in school, or I guess I'd have them educating
my children, but it's that it is DONE differently, not truly a different
animal is it?
Actually it's not DONE at all, it's child led but it's still learning just in
a different better way (much better).
I'm not disputing or arguing your analogy, just sharing with you what I am
thinking so maybe you can see the flaw in my thinking and share with me about
being a better facilitator of unschooling for my daughter.
Kinda like "this" is how I am seeing it, what exactly is the difference. I
see it as sorta the same end, as in children grow up, go on to college or to
their futures as whatever they choose to be and they are gonna get there,
nothing is going to change that, but the way they end up there makes a big
difference.
Gingerbread or chocolate chips? Maybe, but I'm just see it as a different
way, a much better way of course but the goal is learning isn't it? Just the
unschooling way turns out much better chocolate chips with much less burning
and scorching and pain than the schooling cookies, they all may not look as
uniform as the ones sliced from the roll, but they are SO much better even if
it takes a different route to get them that way.
OK, I'm going to bed, it was a LONG, but great weekend and I think I am
rambling and making no sense, even to myself... sorry...
Thanks again for making me THINK, I LOVE it!
glena
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/28/2003 4:48:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
kbcdlovejo@... writes:
rather it be a relaxed enjoyable part of her life instead of an "OH GOD I
HATE MATH WHY DO I HAVE TO LEARN THIS" event.
No, she doesn't HAVE to love it and want to be a math wizard or something, I
just don't want to have her look at it as something she HAS to do. I want
her to enjoy learning and to be excited about it, if it's NOW or if it's five
years from now and a college requirement or twenty years from now when her
own children come to her and want to know HOW.
Maybe it's stupid of me, but I think it would be great to love to learn math
as much as one loves any other aspect of learning. Not to have the dreaded
fear I've seen repeated over and over with others when it comes to the
"math".
But as promised it isn't even an issue here at the present. I have found
some pretty interesting and fun things that we've looked at and enjoyed for a
moment or more (thanks to those who sent along suggestions!) but poetry is
definitely taking precedent at the present time, and that's fine with me.
Thanks again to everyone who offers me their wisdom and thoughts to help me
along this journey.
glena
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
kbcdlovejo@... writes:
> Why is it important to YOU that she love math? Can she be passionate aboutAt some point it's going to happen, she's going to deal with it, I would
> other things (and never math) and it still be OK? Some people just don't
> like
> math. Some people just hate grammar. I'm the Grammar Nazi. What if *I*
> decide
> that everyone should LOVE grammar? Where does that put everyone who HATES
> it
> ---or is indifferent to it?
>
rather it be a relaxed enjoyable part of her life instead of an "OH GOD I
HATE MATH WHY DO I HAVE TO LEARN THIS" event.
No, she doesn't HAVE to love it and want to be a math wizard or something, I
just don't want to have her look at it as something she HAS to do. I want
her to enjoy learning and to be excited about it, if it's NOW or if it's five
years from now and a college requirement or twenty years from now when her
own children come to her and want to know HOW.
Maybe it's stupid of me, but I think it would be great to love to learn math
as much as one loves any other aspect of learning. Not to have the dreaded
fear I've seen repeated over and over with others when it comes to the
"math".
But as promised it isn't even an issue here at the present. I have found
some pretty interesting and fun things that we've looked at and enjoyed for a
moment or more (thanks to those who sent along suggestions!) but poetry is
definitely taking precedent at the present time, and that's fine with me.
Thanks again to everyone who offers me their wisdom and thoughts to help me
along this journey.
glena
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/28/2003 3:44:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
deeply search my motives and I can appreciate that you can know the meaning
in my words beyond even my own comprehension.
I send just as much time with my child as is required or accepted by her but
thank you for thinking of me and letting me know once again that my questions
and posts have become tiresome to you. I'll think about it, might not change
anything as far as questioning because I think I get GREAT advice and LOTS to
think about and explore but I do appreciate you pointing out yet again that
you think I post too much.
You telling me you have a German Shepherd and having an Australian Cattle dog
is not a very good analogy of me stating what I KNOW to be a fact in my life,
asking about it, or discussing it with others who might have more insight
than I do.
If I say I would love for my daughter to enjoy learning about EVERYTHING in
her life, guess what? I mean that I would LOVE for my daughter to enjoy
learning about EVERYTHING that she learns. Nothing less, nothing more.
Please point out to me how that is flawed thinking? That because I WANT her
to ENJOY learning and I look or ask about fun or exciting things that I might
never know about it's somehow a different reality than you experience? Of
course it is, it's MY reality.
I get some really GOOD ADVICE here. If I don't ask, if I don't talk about or
discuss where I am and what my thinking is, how will anyone ever point out to
me the flaws in my thinking and help me to find this nirvana that you have?
glena who is forever grateful for those with the kindness of heart and
patience of soul to discuss and suggest, nurture and guide me to be the best
I can be at unschooling
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
> It's not that you're not explaining well, it's that you're trying to writeSandra, thank you so much for taking such an active role in helping me to so
> what others want to hear without doing what others think you need to do,
> which is post less and BE with your kids more. See what they're already
> doing, and disassemble the model in your head which has lists of things you
>
> think they need to learn. Whether they love it or not, whether they wait
> until they "need" to know it or not, those aren't the issues. The issue is
>
> your own need to deschool yourself, to come to a new model of learning
> inside
> your own mind and your own soul.
>
deeply search my motives and I can appreciate that you can know the meaning
in my words beyond even my own comprehension.
I send just as much time with my child as is required or accepted by her but
thank you for thinking of me and letting me know once again that my questions
and posts have become tiresome to you. I'll think about it, might not change
anything as far as questioning because I think I get GREAT advice and LOTS to
think about and explore but I do appreciate you pointing out yet again that
you think I post too much.
You telling me you have a German Shepherd and having an Australian Cattle dog
is not a very good analogy of me stating what I KNOW to be a fact in my life,
asking about it, or discussing it with others who might have more insight
than I do.
If I say I would love for my daughter to enjoy learning about EVERYTHING in
her life, guess what? I mean that I would LOVE for my daughter to enjoy
learning about EVERYTHING that she learns. Nothing less, nothing more.
Please point out to me how that is flawed thinking? That because I WANT her
to ENJOY learning and I look or ask about fun or exciting things that I might
never know about it's somehow a different reality than you experience? Of
course it is, it's MY reality.
I get some really GOOD ADVICE here. If I don't ask, if I don't talk about or
discuss where I am and what my thinking is, how will anyone ever point out to
me the flaws in my thinking and help me to find this nirvana that you have?
glena who is forever grateful for those with the kindness of heart and
patience of soul to discuss and suggest, nurture and guide me to be the best
I can be at unschooling
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Have a Nice Day!
At some point it's going to happen, she's going to deal with it, I would
rather it be a relaxed enjoyable part of her life instead of an "OH GOD I
HATE MATH WHY DO I HAVE TO LEARN THIS" event.<<<<
Thats the point we are trying to make.
It WILL be a relaxed and enjoyable thing for her if she comes into it at her own time in her own way. You don't need to "make" it that way.
You don't need to be worrying about it right now because she is not interested...so drop it. When she is interested, THEN come back and ask about it.
Kristen
rather it be a relaxed enjoyable part of her life instead of an "OH GOD I
HATE MATH WHY DO I HAVE TO LEARN THIS" event.<<<<
Thats the point we are trying to make.
It WILL be a relaxed and enjoyable thing for her if she comes into it at her own time in her own way. You don't need to "make" it that way.
You don't need to be worrying about it right now because she is not interested...so drop it. When she is interested, THEN come back and ask about it.
Kristen
----- Original Message -----
From: rubyprincesstsg@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, April 28, 2003 10:01 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Math phobia, again
In a message dated 4/28/2003 4:48:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
kbcdlovejo@... writes:
> Why is it important to YOU that she love math? Can she be passionate about
> other things (and never math) and it still be OK? Some people just don't
> like
> math. Some people just hate grammar. I'm the Grammar Nazi. What if *I*
> decide
> that everyone should LOVE grammar? Where does that put everyone who HATES
> it
> ---or is indifferent to it?
>
At some point it's going to happen, she's going to deal with it, I would
rather it be a relaxed enjoyable part of her life instead of an "OH GOD I
HATE MATH WHY DO I HAVE TO LEARN THIS" event.
No, she doesn't HAVE to love it and want to be a math wizard or something, I
just don't want to have her look at it as something she HAS to do. I want
her to enjoy learning and to be excited about it, if it's NOW or if it's five
years from now and a college requirement or twenty years from now when her
own children come to her and want to know HOW.
Maybe it's stupid of me, but I think it would be great to love to learn math
as much as one loves any other aspect of learning. Not to have the dreaded
fear I've seen repeated over and over with others when it comes to the
"math".
But as promised it isn't even an issue here at the present. I have found
some pretty interesting and fun things that we've looked at and enjoyed for a
moment or more (thanks to those who sent along suggestions!) but poetry is
definitely taking precedent at the present time, and that's fine with me.
Thanks again to everyone who offers me their wisdom and thoughts to help me
along this journey.
glena
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list owner, Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address an email to:
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Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Have a Nice Day!
If I say I would love for my daughter to enjoy learning about EVERYTHING in
her life, guess what? I mean that I would LOVE for my daughter to enjoy
learning about EVERYTHING that she learns. Nothing less, nothing more.
Please point out to me how that is flawed thinking? <<<<
I'm not Sandra, but here is how that is flawed thinking from an unschooling perspective:
Its all about what YOU want.
Kristen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
her life, guess what? I mean that I would LOVE for my daughter to enjoy
learning about EVERYTHING that she learns. Nothing less, nothing more.
Please point out to me how that is flawed thinking? <<<<
I'm not Sandra, but here is how that is flawed thinking from an unschooling perspective:
Its all about what YOU want.
Kristen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/28/2003 3:09:09 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
jmcseals@... writes:
goal for me anyway. I think she has much higher expectations than I do.
Ever since she's been a tiny little girl, everyone has noticed how nurturing
she is. Her older siblings often comment that they would not be surprise if
she turns out to be a SAHM of a dozen children. I don't care what they
become as long as they are happy.
One of my children has a college degree, one works in the construction
industry, one is currently a college student, not wholeheartedly but for the
"experience" and to play baseball, to him it's not about learning from books
at all, it's about having more life experiences and for him to do what he
wants (play college ball) he HAS to pass classes so he does. I know he
doesn't LOVE the "schooling" part at all, but he DOES love the baseball and
the frats and all that stuff.
The only thing that is about ME, is being the best mother I can possibly be,
learning and growing and providing whatever it takes to meet their needs and
help them on their journey in life.
glena
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
jmcseals@... writes:
> Does that mean she failed? Does that mean YOU failed? WhatI don't care what Cait becomes as long as she is happy at it. That's the
> if she absorbs herself in writing and becomes an author someday, instead of
>
> a doctor? She'll only need enough math to balance her checkbook and count
> change and that should pretty well cover any other math skills needed for
> the average person on an average day. I don't think that is such a bad
> thing. I wonder if you do, though?
>
goal for me anyway. I think she has much higher expectations than I do.
Ever since she's been a tiny little girl, everyone has noticed how nurturing
she is. Her older siblings often comment that they would not be surprise if
she turns out to be a SAHM of a dozen children. I don't care what they
become as long as they are happy.
One of my children has a college degree, one works in the construction
industry, one is currently a college student, not wholeheartedly but for the
"experience" and to play baseball, to him it's not about learning from books
at all, it's about having more life experiences and for him to do what he
wants (play college ball) he HAS to pass classes so he does. I know he
doesn't LOVE the "schooling" part at all, but he DOES love the baseball and
the frats and all that stuff.
The only thing that is about ME, is being the best mother I can possibly be,
learning and growing and providing whatever it takes to meet their needs and
help them on their journey in life.
glena
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/28/03 1:32:31 PM Central Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:
<< It's about FOSTERING a LOVE of math. >>
But Glena, THAT is exactly why we were telling you that the way you were
handling it was not the best way to acheive this.
PLEASE read this again:
"BUT you HAVE to be strong in math to get in
a premed program, you just have too.
So, I tell her maybe she would want to look at some Algebra stuff that I
bought for the computer. And she doesn't. So I suggest maybe she look
online and see what kind of stuff google will offer her with the typing of
Algebra. She doesn't care.
Then I have to go into a lengthy discussion that while I don't care if she
ever learns algebra or not, that SHE wants to go to medical school and at
some point if she can't bring herself to learn math she's just not going to
see that dream realized, which is fine by me, but I want her to know the
facts."
Those were your very own words about you, your dd and math!!
This is NOT jiving with what you're saying now, which is that you never, ever
pushed her or kept offering something after she showed no interest.
I just don't understand why you can't just admit you handled it differently
than the way you would now and move on.
We all make mistakes with our children, we all learn and hopefully admit it
could have been handled better.
What you were doing was NOT strewing, it was pushing. And what we're saying
is the BEST way to foster a love of anything in your children is to be a
shining example.
If it would be fake for you to even show an interest in anything math
related, then they probably are going to pick up on that. You are sending a
message.
If you don't want to heal your own math phobia, then you might pass it to
your child.
That's just how it very often works out.
I chose to get interested in math concepts for ME. So I wouldn't feel so
frustrated and I would learn to enjoy something that would help open doors in
both my world and my childrens.
Ren
"They dined on mince, and slices of quince, Which they ate with a runcible
spoon;
And hand in hand, on the edge of the sand, they danced by the light of the
moon."
--The Owl and the Pussycat
Edward Lear
[email protected] writes:
<< It's about FOSTERING a LOVE of math. >>
But Glena, THAT is exactly why we were telling you that the way you were
handling it was not the best way to acheive this.
PLEASE read this again:
"BUT you HAVE to be strong in math to get in
a premed program, you just have too.
So, I tell her maybe she would want to look at some Algebra stuff that I
bought for the computer. And she doesn't. So I suggest maybe she look
online and see what kind of stuff google will offer her with the typing of
Algebra. She doesn't care.
Then I have to go into a lengthy discussion that while I don't care if she
ever learns algebra or not, that SHE wants to go to medical school and at
some point if she can't bring herself to learn math she's just not going to
see that dream realized, which is fine by me, but I want her to know the
facts."
Those were your very own words about you, your dd and math!!
This is NOT jiving with what you're saying now, which is that you never, ever
pushed her or kept offering something after she showed no interest.
I just don't understand why you can't just admit you handled it differently
than the way you would now and move on.
We all make mistakes with our children, we all learn and hopefully admit it
could have been handled better.
What you were doing was NOT strewing, it was pushing. And what we're saying
is the BEST way to foster a love of anything in your children is to be a
shining example.
If it would be fake for you to even show an interest in anything math
related, then they probably are going to pick up on that. You are sending a
message.
If you don't want to heal your own math phobia, then you might pass it to
your child.
That's just how it very often works out.
I chose to get interested in math concepts for ME. So I wouldn't feel so
frustrated and I would learn to enjoy something that would help open doors in
both my world and my childrens.
Ren
"They dined on mince, and slices of quince, Which they ate with a runcible
spoon;
And hand in hand, on the edge of the sand, they danced by the light of the
moon."
--The Owl and the Pussycat
Edward Lear
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/28/2003 10:18:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
litlrooh@... writes:
dessert and I take all day doing it to perfection because I want her to just
LOVE it, then it's all about ME?
I want to offer her a full plate of whatever is her choosing, whichever meal
she chooses, I want to spend the time to present it to her in a pleasing way,
not just a frozen version of it with a store baked cake.
glena
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
litlrooh@... writes:
> I'm not Sandra, but here is how that is flawed thinking from an unschoolingSo if I want to prepare my child's very favorite meal and her very favorite
> perspective:
>
> Its all about what YOU want.
>
dessert and I take all day doing it to perfection because I want her to just
LOVE it, then it's all about ME?
I want to offer her a full plate of whatever is her choosing, whichever meal
she chooses, I want to spend the time to present it to her in a pleasing way,
not just a frozen version of it with a store baked cake.
glena
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/28/2003 9:53:34 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
litlrooh@... writes:
so, guess we will leave it as I'm that helpless hopeless faking unschooler
that someone sent me the private post that I am.
WHATEVER, I am here for the same reasons that everyone else is, well that
many are here for, to learn and grow and help my children on their journey in
life.
Someone else brought it up yet again and maybe they want to make an example I
don't know. Someone always brings it up when I ask about most anything. I
haven't asked about the math at all since previously, but it keeps getting
brought up and things are said that are not at all what is happening in my
life. I hope to explain that and move on or have someone offer advice but it
seems to be that I posted about wanting my daughter, no NEEDING my daughter
to learn math so, in the eyes of many it seems condemns me to never moving
forward.
I don't care, I'm doing the best I can and asking for help when I need it.
Trying to incorporate ideas and move forward on the unschooling journey,
Like it was pointed out, take what you need from the list, use the delete key
and for heavens sake quit judging me from one post that seems to go on and
on.
And for those of you who have the time to check, please do so, you can
clearly see that once again someone ELSE brought up the math, I did discuss
it yet again though.
glena
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
litlrooh@... writes:
> Anything other than total acceptance of her disinterest IS being pushy.Nope it's not disinterest, I got LOTS of great ideas, but this is tiresome
>
so, guess we will leave it as I'm that helpless hopeless faking unschooler
that someone sent me the private post that I am.
WHATEVER, I am here for the same reasons that everyone else is, well that
many are here for, to learn and grow and help my children on their journey in
life.
Someone else brought it up yet again and maybe they want to make an example I
don't know. Someone always brings it up when I ask about most anything. I
haven't asked about the math at all since previously, but it keeps getting
brought up and things are said that are not at all what is happening in my
life. I hope to explain that and move on or have someone offer advice but it
seems to be that I posted about wanting my daughter, no NEEDING my daughter
to learn math so, in the eyes of many it seems condemns me to never moving
forward.
I don't care, I'm doing the best I can and asking for help when I need it.
Trying to incorporate ideas and move forward on the unschooling journey,
Like it was pointed out, take what you need from the list, use the delete key
and for heavens sake quit judging me from one post that seems to go on and
on.
And for those of you who have the time to check, please do so, you can
clearly see that once again someone ELSE brought up the math, I did discuss
it yet again though.
glena
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
Glena,
When I brought my son home he hated math. Now, he doesn't mind it at all so
long as it is life math. He hates any pushed on math, book math or question
math. If he is living life and stumbles along to a math thing like cooking
measurements or shopping or how long he will have to save now per week to get
the car he wants at 16 he does it.
My son could not do simple math to save his life 2 1/2 years ago cuz it was
pushed math/book math. What I found out is that they where using "set"
formulas to get the answers and he was frustrated because he knew his own way
and they would not let him do it.
A child that could not do math on paper in school now does it in his head
faster than I ever could!
Glena, my son was tested LD, labeled and stuffed in the resource room at
school. They told me he will always have math and reading issues. He is doing
wonderful now!
I dont know if this helped you but I want you to know, I hear you, I had the
same worries last year. Maybe if you set a date to recheck your concerns.
Give her a year, I bet you both will feel much different next year.
(((((((((((((GLENA)))))))))))))))))) Hugs for Glena from Maine
Laura
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
When I brought my son home he hated math. Now, he doesn't mind it at all so
long as it is life math. He hates any pushed on math, book math or question
math. If he is living life and stumbles along to a math thing like cooking
measurements or shopping or how long he will have to save now per week to get
the car he wants at 16 he does it.
My son could not do simple math to save his life 2 1/2 years ago cuz it was
pushed math/book math. What I found out is that they where using "set"
formulas to get the answers and he was frustrated because he knew his own way
and they would not let him do it.
A child that could not do math on paper in school now does it in his head
faster than I ever could!
Glena, my son was tested LD, labeled and stuffed in the resource room at
school. They told me he will always have math and reading issues. He is doing
wonderful now!
I dont know if this helped you but I want you to know, I hear you, I had the
same worries last year. Maybe if you set a date to recheck your concerns.
Give her a year, I bet you both will feel much different next year.
(((((((((((((GLENA)))))))))))))))))) Hugs for Glena from Maine
Laura
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/28/2003 10:38:06 PM Eastern Daylight Time, HMSL2@...
writes:
her right back to school. Apparently because I want learning to be fun and
exciting and to be the best it's just a lie that I haven't even yet let
myself admit.
I don't even bring math up, I REALLY don't but apparently that's all I can be
judged on and judged I am for sure.
I was just ready to say forget it, obviously I am NEVER going to get this if
those "in the know" think I am some fake liar, well, I must be harming my
child right? That is the VERY LAST thing I would ever want to do.
So if someone is going to harm her, let it be the school system right?
Thank you for your kind post, I can't tell you how much I needed it this very
minute.
glena
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
writes:
> (((((((((((((GLENA)))))))))))))))))) Hugs for Glena from MaineThank you, I can tell you it almost (yep almost) makes me just want to send
>
>
her right back to school. Apparently because I want learning to be fun and
exciting and to be the best it's just a lie that I haven't even yet let
myself admit.
I don't even bring math up, I REALLY don't but apparently that's all I can be
judged on and judged I am for sure.
I was just ready to say forget it, obviously I am NEVER going to get this if
those "in the know" think I am some fake liar, well, I must be harming my
child right? That is the VERY LAST thing I would ever want to do.
So if someone is going to harm her, let it be the school system right?
Thank you for your kind post, I can't tell you how much I needed it this very
minute.
glena
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
Dear Sir or Madam,
Please unsubscribe me to these emails. You send a ridiculous amount of
emails over the course of the day and I wind up having to delete them all
because there are too many.
Thank you.
Sincerely, Mrs. O'Malley
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Please unsubscribe me to these emails. You send a ridiculous amount of
emails over the course of the day and I wind up having to delete them all
because there are too many.
Thank you.
Sincerely, Mrs. O'Malley
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/28/2003 10:29:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
starsuncloud@... writes:
shrugged, that was the end of it, EXCEPT for my panic that maybe it was the
WRONG stuff.
I NEVER sat her down and demanded she do ANYTHING much less math related
stuff.
Since that round of posts I try NOT to think about math but somehow it keeps
coming up that because of that one incident which I repeatedly say I've
learned from, keeps me from doing anything in an unschooling manner.
I admitted I was scared, I admitted that my friend, a high school principal
had told me in no uncertain words the irreparable harm I was doing by
avoiding math all together because she didn't ask about it. I admitted I
didn't love math, I just did it. I said I wished a better experience for
her.
All of that is wrong. I get it, that you tell me I am forever doomed because
of this ONE instance, I get it that no matter what I ask about or discuss
someone will ALWAYS find the post about MATH and say "see, you know nothing,
you can't do this, you will NEVER do this".
So, I accept that. I also accept that in between those posts I get posts
from those who really LISTEN and don't jump back to a page that might have
been taken out of context and try to skew it to fit the current discussion
and put me back into the hole someone has carved for me. Those are the posts
that help, those are the posts that point out ways to think or do differently
or offer advice on how to do something not just tell me that I'm NOT doing
it.
That is the help that I stay here for and I try to always say how grateful I
am for it.
glena
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
starsuncloud@... writes:
> Those were your very own words about you, your dd and math!!I didn't push or keep offering. The panic was MINE alone. She looked at it
> This is NOT jiving with what you're saying now, which is that you never,
> ever
> pushed her or kept offering something after she showed no interest.
>
shrugged, that was the end of it, EXCEPT for my panic that maybe it was the
WRONG stuff.
I NEVER sat her down and demanded she do ANYTHING much less math related
stuff.
Since that round of posts I try NOT to think about math but somehow it keeps
coming up that because of that one incident which I repeatedly say I've
learned from, keeps me from doing anything in an unschooling manner.
I admitted I was scared, I admitted that my friend, a high school principal
had told me in no uncertain words the irreparable harm I was doing by
avoiding math all together because she didn't ask about it. I admitted I
didn't love math, I just did it. I said I wished a better experience for
her.
All of that is wrong. I get it, that you tell me I am forever doomed because
of this ONE instance, I get it that no matter what I ask about or discuss
someone will ALWAYS find the post about MATH and say "see, you know nothing,
you can't do this, you will NEVER do this".
So, I accept that. I also accept that in between those posts I get posts
from those who really LISTEN and don't jump back to a page that might have
been taken out of context and try to skew it to fit the current discussion
and put me back into the hole someone has carved for me. Those are the posts
that help, those are the posts that point out ways to think or do differently
or offer advice on how to do something not just tell me that I'm NOT doing
it.
That is the help that I stay here for and I try to always say how grateful I
am for it.
glena
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/28/2003 10:45:16 PM Eastern Standard Time,
rubyprincesstsg@... writes:
I have got to say this!
Glena asked a question that some others including my self would have asked.
As a matter a fact I asked a group that question last year.
We Unschool our children and allow them their own directions and tell adults
not to control, push, etc., whatever words where used. But some are attacking
this person who joined this group for support and encouragement.
I think advice is fine but when it is email after email of attacking her and
her motherhood it's doing nothing but driving her away.
Glena please do not leave and please dont put your daughter back in ps
because of math.
My understanding of this group is:
To assist others in their Unschooling goals
To help those who need support
To ...hey.... ((((give a hug)))) when someone needs it why not!
I just read about an hour ago to calm an upset child is to bring them close
to you, give them a hug. We are all human and sometimes, yes even as adults
we need a hug.
To meet other Unschooling families
(((((Glena))))))
Laura
Maine
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
rubyprincesstsg@... writes:
> Nope it's not disinterest, I got LOTS of great ideas, but this is tiresomeOK,
> so, guess we will leave it as I'm that helpless hopeless faking unschooler
> that someone sent me the private post that I am.
>
I have got to say this!
Glena asked a question that some others including my self would have asked.
As a matter a fact I asked a group that question last year.
We Unschool our children and allow them their own directions and tell adults
not to control, push, etc., whatever words where used. But some are attacking
this person who joined this group for support and encouragement.
I think advice is fine but when it is email after email of attacking her and
her motherhood it's doing nothing but driving her away.
Glena please do not leave and please dont put your daughter back in ps
because of math.
My understanding of this group is:
To assist others in their Unschooling goals
To help those who need support
To ...hey.... ((((give a hug)))) when someone needs it why not!
I just read about an hour ago to calm an upset child is to bring them close
to you, give them a hug. We are all human and sometimes, yes even as adults
we need a hug.
To meet other Unschooling families
(((((Glena))))))
Laura
Maine
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/28/03 8:12:25 PM, rubyprincesstsg@... writes:
<< Sandra, thank you so much for taking such an active role in helping me to
so
deeply search my motives and I can appreciate that you can know the meaning
in my words beyond even my own comprehension. >>
No problem! I'm not the only one.
<<thank you for thinking of me and letting me know once again that my
questions
and posts have become tiresome to you. >>
Well others have said the same, but it pleases you to single me out.
<<I do appreciate you pointing out yet again that
you think I post too much.>>
Yet again? How many times you think that is so far? And yet I'm not the
only one!
<If I say I would love for my daughter to enjoy learning about EVERYTHING in
her life, guess what? I mean that I would LOVE for my daughter to enjoy
learning about EVERYTHING that she learns. Nothing less, nothing more.
<<Please point out to me how that is flawed thinking? >>
The examples you gave were schoolish. They were academic. No more, no less.
<<I get some really GOOD ADVICE here. >>
Yes, you do. LOTS of good advice. And you choose a litte bit of it to
accept and a huge amount to reject, repeatedly, repetitively.
<<If I don't ask, if I don't talk about or discuss where I am and what my
thinking is, how will anyone ever point out to me the flaws in my thinking
and help me to find this nirvana that you have?>>
Lots of people find unschooling nirvana by reading and thinking, but nobody
finds it without changing their own thinking and actions.
Sandra
<< Sandra, thank you so much for taking such an active role in helping me to
so
deeply search my motives and I can appreciate that you can know the meaning
in my words beyond even my own comprehension. >>
No problem! I'm not the only one.
<<thank you for thinking of me and letting me know once again that my
questions
and posts have become tiresome to you. >>
Well others have said the same, but it pleases you to single me out.
<<I do appreciate you pointing out yet again that
you think I post too much.>>
Yet again? How many times you think that is so far? And yet I'm not the
only one!
<If I say I would love for my daughter to enjoy learning about EVERYTHING in
her life, guess what? I mean that I would LOVE for my daughter to enjoy
learning about EVERYTHING that she learns. Nothing less, nothing more.
<<Please point out to me how that is flawed thinking? >>
The examples you gave were schoolish. They were academic. No more, no less.
<<I get some really GOOD ADVICE here. >>
Yes, you do. LOTS of good advice. And you choose a litte bit of it to
accept and a huge amount to reject, repeatedly, repetitively.
<<If I don't ask, if I don't talk about or discuss where I am and what my
thinking is, how will anyone ever point out to me the flaws in my thinking
and help me to find this nirvana that you have?>>
Lots of people find unschooling nirvana by reading and thinking, but nobody
finds it without changing their own thinking and actions.
Sandra
Heidi
Hi Glena
commisserating (sp?) with you, since I've been in your boat. "HOw
will they ever get along if they don't learn (Fill in the blank)?"
I recommended the Sudbury site for you to click around in, and now
I'm going to prescribe: John Holt's writings. Also, John Taylor
Gatto. These authors rocked my world, and redefined education (it's
about learning, not teaching) for me.
I used to post lots of questions here, similar to yours, then I went
away for a few months, and read the above authors and learned this:
There IS no core knowledge that everyone must have in order to
succeed. Many successful, happy people move along in life just fine
without (fill in the blank).
Every human being needs to know different things, and each human
being will learn the things he needs to know. In an unschooling
scenario, when the need comes up, the learner will find someone to
teach it to him. And then! it'll be like a sponge sucking up
moisture, the learning will come so easy and so fast and the kid will
love it...until he masters it, or turns to something else.
It's happening with my eight year old whose "formal math education"
amounted to my teaching her how to write her numbers when she was
five. While I was busy fretting about her late verbal abilities, she
was figuring out how to subtract, how many quarters in $1.00, .50,
and .75, how to count by two, five, ten, and heh 25, how to tell time
without any help from me. That, even more than Holt and Gatto, is
what brought me back to this group. The fact that my kid was picking
up math without me teaching it to her, thus proving not only what is
being said here and at several unschooling pages (articles), but also
what Holt and Gatto say in their writings: the human brain will take
up knowledge. It's part of us.
The point is, when your girl is ready to get into algebra, she will.
But she might not ever, and that's okay. But if you let her come to
algebra on her own, so that she is learning it because she needs it
or wants it, she will be more likely to learn it well, than if she is
told she needs it, reminded that she needs it, hinted at that she
should learn it, etc. and finally gives in and forces herself to
learn it, in order to please someone else besides herself.
sheesh. I didn't mean to go on so long. I'm at the very beginning of
trusting this, myself. I'm going to be biting my tongue IN HALF while
my middle child (by far the most "schooled" of the three) deschools.
But I do know that they'll learn what life teaches them they need to
learn.
peace, heidiC who is just at the beginning of this unschooling thing,
herself.
commisserating (sp?) with you, since I've been in your boat. "HOw
will they ever get along if they don't learn (Fill in the blank)?"
I recommended the Sudbury site for you to click around in, and now
I'm going to prescribe: John Holt's writings. Also, John Taylor
Gatto. These authors rocked my world, and redefined education (it's
about learning, not teaching) for me.
I used to post lots of questions here, similar to yours, then I went
away for a few months, and read the above authors and learned this:
There IS no core knowledge that everyone must have in order to
succeed. Many successful, happy people move along in life just fine
without (fill in the blank).
Every human being needs to know different things, and each human
being will learn the things he needs to know. In an unschooling
scenario, when the need comes up, the learner will find someone to
teach it to him. And then! it'll be like a sponge sucking up
moisture, the learning will come so easy and so fast and the kid will
love it...until he masters it, or turns to something else.
It's happening with my eight year old whose "formal math education"
amounted to my teaching her how to write her numbers when she was
five. While I was busy fretting about her late verbal abilities, she
was figuring out how to subtract, how many quarters in $1.00, .50,
and .75, how to count by two, five, ten, and heh 25, how to tell time
without any help from me. That, even more than Holt and Gatto, is
what brought me back to this group. The fact that my kid was picking
up math without me teaching it to her, thus proving not only what is
being said here and at several unschooling pages (articles), but also
what Holt and Gatto say in their writings: the human brain will take
up knowledge. It's part of us.
The point is, when your girl is ready to get into algebra, she will.
But she might not ever, and that's okay. But if you let her come to
algebra on her own, so that she is learning it because she needs it
or wants it, she will be more likely to learn it well, than if she is
told she needs it, reminded that she needs it, hinted at that she
should learn it, etc. and finally gives in and forces herself to
learn it, in order to please someone else besides herself.
sheesh. I didn't mean to go on so long. I'm at the very beginning of
trusting this, myself. I'm going to be biting my tongue IN HALF while
my middle child (by far the most "schooled" of the three) deschools.
But I do know that they'll learn what life teaches them they need to
learn.
peace, heidiC who is just at the beginning of this unschooling thing,
herself.
> > Thanks for the food for thought, I've been thinking about it butcan't yet
> see the comparison, but I'm trying to get it.the slice
>
> Maybe instead of completely different types of cookies, they are
> and bakes or microwaved instead of a conventional oven.
>
> Thanks again for making me THINK, I LOVE it!
>
> glena
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]