Late Talking = Late Reading?
Heidi
Hello
I don't know if anyone remembers me at all. I peeked in here for a
few weeks in January/February. I've been reading with interest and
hope, the thread(s) on late starting talkers, and have a question for
you whose kids started speaking late: Did your late talkers also read
late?
My Katie was a late starting talker, incomprehensible before about
age 6, when she suddenly took off with all elements of her speech:
articulation, grammar, etc. And, at eight, she simply is not a
reader. My other kids all had reading down pat by 6 or 7, with one or
two lessons. Not my youngest. Oh! She knows her phonics, that's for
sure! But knowing phonics hasn't turned her into a reader.
I'm thinking, as with the speech, time will bring her around. Anyone
else have a late talker > late reader correlation? And eight probably
isn't late, anyway. It's just more than a year later than my other
kids.
thanks
Heidi C
I don't know if anyone remembers me at all. I peeked in here for a
few weeks in January/February. I've been reading with interest and
hope, the thread(s) on late starting talkers, and have a question for
you whose kids started speaking late: Did your late talkers also read
late?
My Katie was a late starting talker, incomprehensible before about
age 6, when she suddenly took off with all elements of her speech:
articulation, grammar, etc. And, at eight, she simply is not a
reader. My other kids all had reading down pat by 6 or 7, with one or
two lessons. Not my youngest. Oh! She knows her phonics, that's for
sure! But knowing phonics hasn't turned her into a reader.
I'm thinking, as with the speech, time will bring her around. Anyone
else have a late talker > late reader correlation? And eight probably
isn't late, anyway. It's just more than a year later than my other
kids.
thanks
Heidi C
sorcha_aisling
No, eight isn't late at all. Unless you're in public school. Then
the difference between 6 and 8 is tremendous.
I don't know whether my late talker will be a late reader, because
he's not quite 5. But I understand what you say about phonics not
leading to reading. Last night my son wanted to play a game where I
say a word, any word, and he tells me what letter it starts with.
And he did! Every time. He was so proud of himself, showing off,
even saying words that he wanted me to ask that I was holding back
because I didn't know he knew blends. But he can't read. Somehow
the letter sounds don't translate for him to paper.
He spent almost two weeks practicing the word "zebra". He typed it
over and over, from memory, and he knew what word it was. Then one
day we were playing with sidewalk chalk and wrote "zebra". I
said, "You know this word!" And he just stared blankly and
said, "What is it?"
There is one word that he knows in print and can spell out loud. And
it isn't his name. It's "poop". And it amuses him to no end.
But all the experts who say phonics are the key to reading are
missing a piece. My son knows the sound of every single letter, and
he recognizes by sight every single letter, and he simply doesn't
read. So much for that theory.
Sorcha
the difference between 6 and 8 is tremendous.
I don't know whether my late talker will be a late reader, because
he's not quite 5. But I understand what you say about phonics not
leading to reading. Last night my son wanted to play a game where I
say a word, any word, and he tells me what letter it starts with.
And he did! Every time. He was so proud of himself, showing off,
even saying words that he wanted me to ask that I was holding back
because I didn't know he knew blends. But he can't read. Somehow
the letter sounds don't translate for him to paper.
He spent almost two weeks practicing the word "zebra". He typed it
over and over, from memory, and he knew what word it was. Then one
day we were playing with sidewalk chalk and wrote "zebra". I
said, "You know this word!" And he just stared blankly and
said, "What is it?"
There is one word that he knows in print and can spell out loud. And
it isn't his name. It's "poop". And it amuses him to no end.
But all the experts who say phonics are the key to reading are
missing a piece. My son knows the sound of every single letter, and
he recognizes by sight every single letter, and he simply doesn't
read. So much for that theory.
Sorcha
Susan Fuerst
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Late Talking = Late Reading?
Three of my four children would be considered 'early' talkers, the third
was probably considered 'average age'. My oldest (11 in Dec) is just
beginning to read, so would be considered 'late'. The second dd turned
8 in Jan., she is the one who talked at probably average age. She is
also in the early reading stages, but it wouldn't surprise me if she
'takes off' with it soon....we'll see! Third dd just turned five. She
recognizes a few words from TV and computer games and 'pretends' to
read, but is not what I would call a reader. Simon is 2.5 and has
talked in full sentences since about 14-15 months.
Keep unschooling and those arbitrary expectations about reading,
talking, multiplying, etc will gradually fade away....and with them most
of your worries!
Susan.....who has to re-read the article about "waiting to exhale"
concerning reading so my worries will continue to fade. And who was
'late' as a baby/toddler with many things like talking and walking, but
was considered an 'early' reader.
Hello
I don't know if anyone remembers me at all. I peeked in here for a
few weeks in January/February. I've been reading with interest and
hope, the thread(s) on late starting talkers, and have a question for
you whose kids started speaking late: Did your late talkers also read
late?
My Katie was a late starting talker, incomprehensible before about
age 6, when she suddenly took off with all elements of her speech:
articulation, grammar, etc. And, at eight, she simply is not a
reader. My other kids all had reading down pat by 6 or 7, with one or
two lessons. Not my youngest. Oh! She knows her phonics, that's for
sure! But knowing phonics hasn't turned her into a reader.
I'm thinking, as with the speech, time will bring her around. Anyone
else have a late talker > late reader correlation? And eight probably
isn't late, anyway. It's just more than a year later than my other
kids.
thanks
Heidi C
~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email
the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list
owner, Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address
an email to:
[email protected]
Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Three of my four children would be considered 'early' talkers, the third
was probably considered 'average age'. My oldest (11 in Dec) is just
beginning to read, so would be considered 'late'. The second dd turned
8 in Jan., she is the one who talked at probably average age. She is
also in the early reading stages, but it wouldn't surprise me if she
'takes off' with it soon....we'll see! Third dd just turned five. She
recognizes a few words from TV and computer games and 'pretends' to
read, but is not what I would call a reader. Simon is 2.5 and has
talked in full sentences since about 14-15 months.
Keep unschooling and those arbitrary expectations about reading,
talking, multiplying, etc will gradually fade away....and with them most
of your worries!
Susan.....who has to re-read the article about "waiting to exhale"
concerning reading so my worries will continue to fade. And who was
'late' as a baby/toddler with many things like talking and walking, but
was considered an 'early' reader.
Hello
I don't know if anyone remembers me at all. I peeked in here for a
few weeks in January/February. I've been reading with interest and
hope, the thread(s) on late starting talkers, and have a question for
you whose kids started speaking late: Did your late talkers also read
late?
My Katie was a late starting talker, incomprehensible before about
age 6, when she suddenly took off with all elements of her speech:
articulation, grammar, etc. And, at eight, she simply is not a
reader. My other kids all had reading down pat by 6 or 7, with one or
two lessons. Not my youngest. Oh! She knows her phonics, that's for
sure! But knowing phonics hasn't turned her into a reader.
I'm thinking, as with the speech, time will bring her around. Anyone
else have a late talker > late reader correlation? And eight probably
isn't late, anyway. It's just more than a year later than my other
kids.
thanks
Heidi C
~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email
the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list
owner, Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address
an email to:
[email protected]
Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/25/2003 8:47:36 AM Central Daylight Time,
sorcha-aisling@... writes:
the sounds before he was 3. He spent the next 4 years gathering more and
more information. At 7 and one month, he read Green Eggs and Ham with no
assistance. I was just patient and didn't push the issue. I never tested him
or quizzed him or tried to get him to read. If he became interested in
knowing what something said, I would let him know I was present to him and he
could ask me if he needed help. I trusted him and knew that he wanted to
read, and that it would just be a matter of brain development.
I didn't "teach" him anything about reading. We lived our life and words and
letters and ideas attached to them occurred (and still occur) as a part of it
every day. I shared with him about letters and reading the same way I shared
how to cut up his pancakes. I read to him when he asked and interpreted
signs for him and didn't push. I made sure I affirmed to him that reading
was something he would develop into, just like getting better at baseball (in
which he is intensely interested).
My son doesn't like to be read to, by the way. That's a standard thing
people say about kids and education, both schoolers and homeschoolers--just
read to them, that's the best thing you can do for their education. When he
was a toddler, I read to him all the regular books, but he had little
patience for all the words. He wanted to see the pictures. If I wanted to
read it all, I had to read FAST! Now that he is reading fluently and longer
books, he still doesn't want to be read to. But he will listen to books on
tape, especially if they are acted instead of read. He doesn't always pay
attention to those, either.
Each child is different. We just have to trust them to know themselves.
Tuck
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
sorcha-aisling@... writes:
> But all the experts who say phonics are the key to reading areMy experience was similar to yours. My son knew all the letters and many of
> missing a piece. My son knows the sound of every single letter, and
> he recognizes by sight every single letter, and he simply doesn't
> read. So much for that theory.
>
the sounds before he was 3. He spent the next 4 years gathering more and
more information. At 7 and one month, he read Green Eggs and Ham with no
assistance. I was just patient and didn't push the issue. I never tested him
or quizzed him or tried to get him to read. If he became interested in
knowing what something said, I would let him know I was present to him and he
could ask me if he needed help. I trusted him and knew that he wanted to
read, and that it would just be a matter of brain development.
I didn't "teach" him anything about reading. We lived our life and words and
letters and ideas attached to them occurred (and still occur) as a part of it
every day. I shared with him about letters and reading the same way I shared
how to cut up his pancakes. I read to him when he asked and interpreted
signs for him and didn't push. I made sure I affirmed to him that reading
was something he would develop into, just like getting better at baseball (in
which he is intensely interested).
My son doesn't like to be read to, by the way. That's a standard thing
people say about kids and education, both schoolers and homeschoolers--just
read to them, that's the best thing you can do for their education. When he
was a toddler, I read to him all the regular books, but he had little
patience for all the words. He wanted to see the pictures. If I wanted to
read it all, I had to read FAST! Now that he is reading fluently and longer
books, he still doesn't want to be read to. But he will listen to books on
tape, especially if they are acted instead of read. He doesn't always pay
attention to those, either.
Each child is different. We just have to trust them to know themselves.
Tuck
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/25/03 6:41:36 AM, bunsofaluminum60@... writes:
<< I've been reading with interest and
hope, the thread(s) on late starting talkers, and have a question for
you whose kids started speaking late: Did your late talkers also read
late? >>
Yes.
Now that you mention it, Holly was preemie, talked later than the boys, and
read later.
And the famous-in-a-reading-article Liam McClure talked REALLY late and read
VERY late. And he's totally fine.
http://sandradodd.com/r/carol
(it's also in the library at www.unschooling.com but that address is much
longer, and I've just moved it because I added more at the reading page and
it had to be rearranged,
http://sandradodd.com/reading
)
Sandra
<< I've been reading with interest and
hope, the thread(s) on late starting talkers, and have a question for
you whose kids started speaking late: Did your late talkers also read
late? >>
Yes.
Now that you mention it, Holly was preemie, talked later than the boys, and
read later.
And the famous-in-a-reading-article Liam McClure talked REALLY late and read
VERY late. And he's totally fine.
http://sandradodd.com/r/carol
(it's also in the library at www.unschooling.com but that address is much
longer, and I've just moved it because I added more at the reading page and
it had to be rearranged,
http://sandradodd.com/reading
)
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/25/03 8:06:54 AM, tuckervill@... writes:
<< Each child is different. We just have to trust them to know themselves.
back and forth. She's in a "read to me" stage but has been in "don't" stage
many times. For long stretches she will want to go to sleep to music, but
then sometimes (currently) I need to read. She will boot me again at some
point for some new video or CD. <g>
And soon I hope she'll be up to reading herself to sleep.
She has tried a couple of chapter books, but isn't up to long-term reading
without assistance with a word here or there and she isn't willing to skip
words. I skipped words when I was first reading. It didn't bother me.
They're all different.
Sandra
<< Each child is different. We just have to trust them to know themselves.
>>And they change! Kirby liked to be read to, Marty didn't much, Holly goes
back and forth. She's in a "read to me" stage but has been in "don't" stage
many times. For long stretches she will want to go to sleep to music, but
then sometimes (currently) I need to read. She will boot me again at some
point for some new video or CD. <g>
And soon I hope she'll be up to reading herself to sleep.
She has tried a couple of chapter books, but isn't up to long-term reading
without assistance with a word here or there and she isn't willing to skip
words. I skipped words when I was first reading. It didn't bother me.
They're all different.
Sandra
Susan Fuerst
>> I was just patient and didn't push the issue. I never tested himor quizzed him or tried to get him to read. If he became interested in
knowing what something said, I would let him know I was present to him
and he
could ask me if he needed help. I trusted him and knew that he wanted
to
read, and that it would just be a matter of brain development. <<
<snip> Each child is different. We just have to trust them to know
themselves.
Tuck<snip>
I daresay I was *not* patient and *did* push my oldest dd. I expected
her to read early and to love reading. As a child, I was an early
reader. This and society has this message that "Reading is the key to
education and education is the key to success. Knowledge is power."
I found unschooling.com very early in my homeschooling decision. Katy
went to kindergarten and we decided during that year to homeschool. I
met someone who had started homeschooling that year, and unschooled. I
read at the website and began reading at this e-list. That was almost 6
years ago.
And even after reading and thinking I understood unschooling ideas, I
found myself in periods of frustration and impatience about reading. I
found within my mind all the ideas that had been ingrained: if you
don't read early, you are less intelligent, without reading you cannot
gain knowledge. I *knew* on some levels (through reading mostly LOL)
that there are other forms of intelligence. But the idea of reading
late and all the little goblins society had planted in my psyche about
it have haunted me for years.
I have gradually let them go as I become aware of them. I believe my
younger children will benefit most. I believe my attitudes, mental
fears and creepy doubts have hindered Katy in learning to read. And I
believe she will read well at some point.
I find my own journey in unschooling as powerful in enabling me to work
toward what Maslow would call self actualization. Two recent things
have brought me even further on this journey in regard to reading.
First, my parents died last fall. (each of separate illnesses, nine
days apart) And we moved to a new home/neighborhood. The drama and
busyness of real life consumed me and there was no time to read. After
the deaths and funerals, etc. I found several what I call "grief
handicaps". One was that I was not capable of reading. Oh, I could
read words, but I didn't care to, and had little to no comprehension.
More than a few paragraphs on something absolutely pertinent to my needs
did not compute.
But I have learned more in some ways in the past 6 months than I can
even explain. I have learned how *I* am capable of learning in other
ways besides reading. And how limiting it is to learn primarily through
reading.
The other mental breakthrough came through Sandra. Her descriptions of
Holly being in the theater production. Sandra explained how Holly
memorized her lines (this came up here again recently). And Sandra's
description of Holly doing a presentation with her Girl Scout Troop was
a big "AHA" thing for me. To paraphrase and summarize, Sandra
described how Holly, though she wasn't reading, was able to present her
topic in a lively way. Holly really *knew* her stuff. Whereas, most
of the 'reading' scouts read reports in a monotone and showed little
depth of knowledge or real enjoyment of the subject.
(Thanks, Sandra....one more example of how you impact others for the
greater good.)
An interesting note, during the past 6 months, Katy has begun to show
an interest and growth in reading. And I know it has been wonderful for
us all for me to not have the shadows of my often unconscious pressure
and expectation to hinder her (and her siblings).
For anyone who stayed with me...thanks ;-)
Susan.....who is surprised to see this tome come out of her! I suppose
confession is good for the soul.
Tim and Maureen
*Each child is different. We just have to trust them to know themselves.*
Absolutely. This has been my experience. My late talkers were late readers and found it harder to get going. My oldest was an early talker but school really did demotivate her so that when she came home from grade 4 she really didn't read things for at least 6 months even though she was able to.
My 7 year old who never experienced any form of school,no formal intro to letters,words etc... was reading and none of us,him included were aware he could read.We discovered it by chance one day when his Grandma was visiting and he was looking at a book with her. He started telling her what it said. She was surprised he was reading as he was just 6. He turned to me in amazement and said"I'm reading? I didn't know I could read." It was quite amusing and quite a plug for unschooling in front of the doubting granny. Her next comment was Yes but what about math? YEESH!!!
maureen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list owner, Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address an email to:
[email protected]
Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Absolutely. This has been my experience. My late talkers were late readers and found it harder to get going. My oldest was an early talker but school really did demotivate her so that when she came home from grade 4 she really didn't read things for at least 6 months even though she was able to.
My 7 year old who never experienced any form of school,no formal intro to letters,words etc... was reading and none of us,him included were aware he could read.We discovered it by chance one day when his Grandma was visiting and he was looking at a book with her. He started telling her what it said. She was surprised he was reading as he was just 6. He turned to me in amazement and said"I'm reading? I didn't know I could read." It was quite amusing and quite a plug for unschooling in front of the doubting granny. Her next comment was Yes but what about math? YEESH!!!
maureen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list owner, Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address an email to:
[email protected]
Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Tia Leschke
> I don't know if anyone remembers me at all. I peeked in here for aMine did. Barely or not quite understandable at 3, reading at 12 (and only
> few weeks in January/February. I've been reading with interest and
> hope, the thread(s) on late starting talkers, and have a question for
> you whose kids started speaking late: Did your late talkers also read
> late?
then because of a panicked, pushy mother).
Tia
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
saftety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Ben Franklin
leschke@...
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/25/03 9:52:56 AM, fuerst@... writes:
<< I daresay I was *not* patient and *did* push my oldest dd. I expected
her to read early and to love reading. As a child, I was an early
reader. This and society has this message that "Reading is the key to
education and education is the key to success. Knowledge is power." >>
Me too, Kirby.
Two and a half reading lessons.
Not because I thought he couldn't learn but I thought he would be happier and
I would be more relieved and the grandparents would praise him...
He cried. He thumped his head down on the book and cried.
I promised him a Ninja Turtle toy he really wanted if he would finish another
session (AND my sessions were being too long!!! Why didn't I just go with
five minute sessions!? I was stupid.)
He said he didn't want that toy anymore. I saw the depth of his pain and
despair and realized I could make him hate reading AND me, and hugged him and
rocked him and apologized and said never again.
So the younger ones were spared.
<<I find my own journey in unschooling as powerful in enabling me to work
toward what Maslow would call self actualization. >>
Yes.
Just this morning another mom I've known for years was saying she doesn't
know how I can keep helping other homeschoolers. We were laughing about it,
but I have to think this: "How can I not?"
It has become part of what and who I am at this stage of my life. Other
stages and things will come, but for now I'm helping others come where my
kids have passed.
<<The other mental breakthrough came through Sandra. Her descriptions of
Holly being in the theater production. Sandra explained how Holly
memorized her lines (this came up here again recently). >>
y* did that without being clear what I was trying to convey--that there is an
advantage to not reading sometimes.
With all our history of hearing and feeling "if you
don't read early, you are less intelligent, without reading you cannot
gain knowledge" it is almost impossible to see advantages to older kids not
reading, and it undoubtedly sounds like lame-o justification to those whose
four year olds picked up a book and read, but I saw Holly learn clearly and
deeply BECAUSE she couldn't read, and learn in ways that bypass reading, that
are not in the least dependent on her finding her old notes to check her
facts, or finding her 3x5 cards to see if she still remembers her speech, etc.
I could never and still can't listen to poetry. It starts to sound like just
noise, soon, and I can't comprehend it.
Holly has been asking me to read poetry and she really gets it, follows, can
quote back, can ask questions. My feeling when people read poetry aloud is
never anything but "Are you done yet? Can I go?" I love song lyrics but
somehow aloud-poetry fritzes me out. I can read it visually. I see
disadvantages from my fairly-early reading (not pre-school, but fluent by
seven and reading anything by nine). I am dependent on reading, and I often
cannot remember what I read (I just remember where it was) and I cannot hear
and remember without taking notes.
Sandra
<< I daresay I was *not* patient and *did* push my oldest dd. I expected
her to read early and to love reading. As a child, I was an early
reader. This and society has this message that "Reading is the key to
education and education is the key to success. Knowledge is power." >>
Me too, Kirby.
Two and a half reading lessons.
Not because I thought he couldn't learn but I thought he would be happier and
I would be more relieved and the grandparents would praise him...
He cried. He thumped his head down on the book and cried.
I promised him a Ninja Turtle toy he really wanted if he would finish another
session (AND my sessions were being too long!!! Why didn't I just go with
five minute sessions!? I was stupid.)
He said he didn't want that toy anymore. I saw the depth of his pain and
despair and realized I could make him hate reading AND me, and hugged him and
rocked him and apologized and said never again.
So the younger ones were spared.
<<I find my own journey in unschooling as powerful in enabling me to work
toward what Maslow would call self actualization. >>
Yes.
Just this morning another mom I've known for years was saying she doesn't
know how I can keep helping other homeschoolers. We were laughing about it,
but I have to think this: "How can I not?"
It has become part of what and who I am at this stage of my life. Other
stages and things will come, but for now I'm helping others come where my
kids have passed.
<<The other mental breakthrough came through Sandra. Her descriptions of
Holly being in the theater production. Sandra explained how Holly
memorized her lines (this came up here again recently). >>
y* did that without being clear what I was trying to convey--that there is an
advantage to not reading sometimes.
With all our history of hearing and feeling "if you
don't read early, you are less intelligent, without reading you cannot
gain knowledge" it is almost impossible to see advantages to older kids not
reading, and it undoubtedly sounds like lame-o justification to those whose
four year olds picked up a book and read, but I saw Holly learn clearly and
deeply BECAUSE she couldn't read, and learn in ways that bypass reading, that
are not in the least dependent on her finding her old notes to check her
facts, or finding her 3x5 cards to see if she still remembers her speech, etc.
I could never and still can't listen to poetry. It starts to sound like just
noise, soon, and I can't comprehend it.
Holly has been asking me to read poetry and she really gets it, follows, can
quote back, can ask questions. My feeling when people read poetry aloud is
never anything but "Are you done yet? Can I go?" I love song lyrics but
somehow aloud-poetry fritzes me out. I can read it visually. I see
disadvantages from my fairly-early reading (not pre-school, but fluent by
seven and reading anything by nine). I am dependent on reading, and I often
cannot remember what I read (I just remember where it was) and I cannot hear
and remember without taking notes.
Sandra
Bronwen
> y* did that without being clear what I was trying to convey--that there isan
> advantage to not reading sometimes.not
>
> With all our history of hearing and feeling "if you
> don't read early, you are less intelligent, without reading you cannot
> gain knowledge" it is almost impossible to see advantages to older kids
> reading, and it undoubtedly sounds like lame-o justification to thosewhose
> four year olds picked up a book and read, but I saw Holly learn clearlyand
> deeply BECAUSE she couldn't read, and learn in ways that bypass reading,that
> are not in the least dependent on her finding her old notes to check heretc.
> facts, or finding her 3x5 cards to see if she still remembers her speech,
>Gosh! I totally know what you mean- I feel like my sons memory is so
developed (he is a non-reader 10)- like I can read him his Yu-Gi-oh cards
once, and he remembers them. I dont even try to remember things- I just
have to reread everything- and write everything down- I wonder if many "good
readers" in school also have this "handi cap" and I wonder what I would have
been like if I had not been pushed to read on someone else's timetable.
Also, about the late reading- I think on some level, the men in my family
realize the pain they had about reading in their child hood. My fil will
ask "how is your reading" or try to bribe ds and stuff (oooh! that chapped
my hide!), but then comes up with a story, out of the blue about him being
in fourth grade and being put up in front of the class with his teacher
announcing to the whole class how he was failing each subject. and he laughs
"I didnt care!" - and I think he must look at my sweet happy wonderful son
and be in awe that a child can have a life like his, and that his own life
was full of allot of pain.
~Bronwen
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/25/2003 10:05:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
tuckervill@... writes:
reading.
Someone said that, if a child is interested in golf or skiing or polo, he
would need "lessons". And reading is the same way.
I agree with Tuck that "sharing" is how he'll get there. I feel QUITE
confident that Tiger Woods' kids won't need "lessons"---'cause those children
will be SURROUNDED by golf and it will seep in through their pores. IF they
want to learn golf, it'll be kind of through osmosis. Peekaboo Street's
children will "be" on skis from birth (and before) and will "understand the
motion involved in staying on skis (IF they're interested). I know "horsey"
children who could ride before they could walk! They were more comfortable on
top of a horse than off---they needed no "lessons".
If a child is lovingly surrounded by whatever it is he wants to learn, he
will learn it almost effortlessly. My boys know all about dogs and training,
although they've done none of it. They could start immediately just because
they're surrounded by trained and untrained dogs---it would just "flow". And
I'd be there to answer questions and lower the frustration factor.
Duncan learned to swim last year. We have a pool. No lessons. Just A LOT of
time in the water. He's learning the read the same way---lots of reading
material around with folks that like to read.
Being surrounded by books and reading and numbers and math and nature and
music and golf and horses and snow..... will NATURALLY make it easier to pick
up the skill. Children who are allowed and encouraged to LEARN on their own
will be more comfortable LATER learning things that might be more foreign to
them---with or withOUT lessons.
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
tuckervill@... writes:
> I didn't "teach" him anything about reading. We lived our life and wordsI've been stewing over this for a few days since the last HEM spat over
> and
> letters and ideas attached to them occurred (and still occur) as a part of
> it
> every day. I shared with him about letters and reading the same way I
> shared
> how to cut up his pancakes. I read to him when he asked and interpreted
> signs for him and didn't push. I made sure I affirmed to him that
> reading
> was something he would develop into, just like getting better at baseball
> (in
> which he is intensely interested).
reading.
Someone said that, if a child is interested in golf or skiing or polo, he
would need "lessons". And reading is the same way.
I agree with Tuck that "sharing" is how he'll get there. I feel QUITE
confident that Tiger Woods' kids won't need "lessons"---'cause those children
will be SURROUNDED by golf and it will seep in through their pores. IF they
want to learn golf, it'll be kind of through osmosis. Peekaboo Street's
children will "be" on skis from birth (and before) and will "understand the
motion involved in staying on skis (IF they're interested). I know "horsey"
children who could ride before they could walk! They were more comfortable on
top of a horse than off---they needed no "lessons".
If a child is lovingly surrounded by whatever it is he wants to learn, he
will learn it almost effortlessly. My boys know all about dogs and training,
although they've done none of it. They could start immediately just because
they're surrounded by trained and untrained dogs---it would just "flow". And
I'd be there to answer questions and lower the frustration factor.
Duncan learned to swim last year. We have a pool. No lessons. Just A LOT of
time in the water. He's learning the read the same way---lots of reading
material around with folks that like to read.
Being surrounded by books and reading and numbers and math and nature and
music and golf and horses and snow..... will NATURALLY make it easier to pick
up the skill. Children who are allowed and encouraged to LEARN on their own
will be more comfortable LATER learning things that might be more foreign to
them---with or withOUT lessons.
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/25/03 12:33:33 PM, kbcdlovejo@... writes:
<< My boys know all about dogs and training,
although they've done none of it. They could start immediately just because
they're surrounded by trained and untrained dogs---it would just "flow". >>
I could tune a guitar the minute I picked one up, from hearing my mom tune
hers for years.
I've said before I had one guitar lesson and then played, but I should amend
that to I had one lesson to find out how to read chord charts and how to
fingerpick and THEN I just played. My mom read nothing, and she played with
a flat pick, country style. I wanted to learn finger picking.
Sandra
<< My boys know all about dogs and training,
although they've done none of it. They could start immediately just because
they're surrounded by trained and untrained dogs---it would just "flow". >>
I could tune a guitar the minute I picked one up, from hearing my mom tune
hers for years.
I've said before I had one guitar lesson and then played, but I should amend
that to I had one lesson to find out how to read chord charts and how to
fingerpick and THEN I just played. My mom read nothing, and she played with
a flat pick, country style. I wanted to learn finger picking.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/25/2003 2:33:59 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
kbcdlovejo@... writes:
be some "private coaches" involved. In my personal experience no matter how
much you "know" something (baseball) you still will need extra coaching
besides what you get on the field during a game or a regular practice. This
is particularly true if your child has a "gift" for the sport and is looking
to pursue it as a career as in the case of Tiger Woods. I bet he would find
the absolute best coach for his child he could.
Call it by any name and if you want to be REALLY good at something it takes
more than just game time to get that way.
In my personal experience anyway. I know we have had private coaches for
different things the children were interested in, because they WANTED them
and wanted to give extra time and attention to a particular sport or whatever
it was at the time they really wanted to excel in.
So, if kids want/ask, I would say it's a good thing for them.
glena
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
kbcdlovejo@... writes:
> I agree with Tuck that "sharing" is how he'll get there. I feel QUITEThey might not call it "lessons" but I would bet almost anything there would
> confident that Tiger Woods' kids won't need "lessons"---'cause those
> children
> will be SURROUNDED by golf and it will seep in through their pores. IF they
>
> want to learn golf, it'll be kind of through osmosis. Peekaboo Street's
> children will "be" on skis from birth (and before) and will "understand the
>
> motion involved in staying on skis (IF they're interested). I know "horsey"
>
> children who could ride before they could walk! They were more comfortable
> on
> top of a horse than off---they needed no "lessons".
>
be some "private coaches" involved. In my personal experience no matter how
much you "know" something (baseball) you still will need extra coaching
besides what you get on the field during a game or a regular practice. This
is particularly true if your child has a "gift" for the sport and is looking
to pursue it as a career as in the case of Tiger Woods. I bet he would find
the absolute best coach for his child he could.
Call it by any name and if you want to be REALLY good at something it takes
more than just game time to get that way.
In my personal experience anyway. I know we have had private coaches for
different things the children were interested in, because they WANTED them
and wanted to give extra time and attention to a particular sport or whatever
it was at the time they really wanted to excel in.
So, if kids want/ask, I would say it's a good thing for them.
glena
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/25/03 2:11:00 PM, rubyprincesstsg@... writes:
<< Call it by any name and if you want to be REALLY good at something it
takes
more than just game time to get that way. >>
There will be teachers and teacherly people who will observe my kids reading
and writing and say "Somewhere in there they had lessons."
You seem determined NOT to believe that people can learn by observation and
trial and error.
<<They might not call it "lessons" but I would bet almost anything there
would
be some "private coaches" involved. . . . . as in the case of Tiger Woods. I
bet he would find
the absolute best coach for his child he could.>>
Why would Tiger Woods need to find a coach for his child? If his kids play
golf with him, his friends, his opponents, his students, won't they pick up
one bit at a time all kinds of advice, grips, stances, and overhear
discussions of all that?
My kids have been around SCA combat (on foot, medieval armored combat) since
they were born. They've played with boffers. They have started fighting in
armor. They "are naturals." We're not finding the absolute best coaches we
can find for them. They are involved with people they have known for years
who are throwing ideas at them in the course of their actual participation in
the sport.
<<So, if kids want/ask, I would say it's a good thing for them.>>
If you've always provided them private coaches, they might assume there is no
other way, and so they will want it and ask for it.
This parallels a child who thinks his mother taught him to speak and whose
mother is sure she taught him to read waiting for his mother to teach him to
add and subtract and multiply, because learning comes from mothers' teaching.
"Private coaches" are teachers.
If you have always gotten your kids coaches, it will be that much harder for
you to trust that unschooling can work.
That is not the same as saying you should never get a coach.
Try to look at the range from never having a coached moment and always have a
full time coach, and THERE is the answer.
Sandra
<< Call it by any name and if you want to be REALLY good at something it
takes
more than just game time to get that way. >>
There will be teachers and teacherly people who will observe my kids reading
and writing and say "Somewhere in there they had lessons."
You seem determined NOT to believe that people can learn by observation and
trial and error.
<<They might not call it "lessons" but I would bet almost anything there
would
be some "private coaches" involved. . . . . as in the case of Tiger Woods. I
bet he would find
the absolute best coach for his child he could.>>
Why would Tiger Woods need to find a coach for his child? If his kids play
golf with him, his friends, his opponents, his students, won't they pick up
one bit at a time all kinds of advice, grips, stances, and overhear
discussions of all that?
My kids have been around SCA combat (on foot, medieval armored combat) since
they were born. They've played with boffers. They have started fighting in
armor. They "are naturals." We're not finding the absolute best coaches we
can find for them. They are involved with people they have known for years
who are throwing ideas at them in the course of their actual participation in
the sport.
<<So, if kids want/ask, I would say it's a good thing for them.>>
If you've always provided them private coaches, they might assume there is no
other way, and so they will want it and ask for it.
This parallels a child who thinks his mother taught him to speak and whose
mother is sure she taught him to read waiting for his mother to teach him to
add and subtract and multiply, because learning comes from mothers' teaching.
"Private coaches" are teachers.
If you have always gotten your kids coaches, it will be that much harder for
you to trust that unschooling can work.
That is not the same as saying you should never get a coach.
Try to look at the range from never having a coached moment and always have a
full time coach, and THERE is the answer.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/25/03 2:33:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
kbcdlovejo@... writes:
it up by watching dad. He doesn't correct their stance or how they hold the
club, not one word. Except don't hit the ball when your brother is in front
of you. They just watch and have no fear of failure. No fear about trying
it.
Pam G.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
kbcdlovejo@... writes:
> Someone said that, if a child is interested in golf or skiing or polo, heJackson loves golf and the boys are very good at it for their age. Just pick
> would need "lessons". And reading is the same way.
>
>
it up by watching dad. He doesn't correct their stance or how they hold the
club, not one word. Except don't hit the ball when your brother is in front
of you. They just watch and have no fear of failure. No fear about trying
it.
Pam G.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/25/03 2:33:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
kbcdlovejo@... writes:
swim on my back I take them. When they want to hang on me I let them. They
have never asked me to help them swim.
Pam G.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
kbcdlovejo@... writes:
> Duncan learned to swim last year. We have a pool. No lessons. Just A LOT ofSame with my boys. Not a lesson. Not a word from me. When they want to
> time in the water. He's learning the read the same way---lots of reading
> material around with folks that like to read.
>
>
swim on my back I take them. When they want to hang on me I let them. They
have never asked me to help them swim.
Pam G.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
kayb85
> It has become part of what and who I am at this stage of my life.Other
> stages and things will come, but for now I'm helping others comewhere my
> kids have passed.And we really appreciate it!!
Sheila
Robin Clevenger
> From: SandraDodd@...just
> I could never and still can't listen to poetry. It starts to sound like
> noise, soon, and I can't comprehend it.Wondering if you have you ever listened to Viggo Mortensen reading his own
poetry??? Yummy. And so much better than that boring old professor in my
English Lit class ;-)
Blue Skies!
-Robin-
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/25/03 6:26:33 PM, diamondair@... writes:
<< Wondering if you have you ever listened to Viggo Mortensen reading his own
poetry??? >>
No, but I'd be willing to try.
Sandra
<< Wondering if you have you ever listened to Viggo Mortensen reading his own
poetry??? >>
No, but I'd be willing to try.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/25/2003 4:11:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
rubyprincesstsg@... writes:
A child surrounded by books and the written word and speaking parents will
NATURALLY pick up language and reading. A child surrounded by signing parents
will NATURALLY pick up sign language. A child surrounded by numbers and
"math-out-loud" will NATURALLY pick up math. A child surrounded by golf
courses and balls and clubs and the best golfer around will NATURALLY pick up
golf from watching, asking, trying, watching some more, etc. (Hell---a child
with Tiger for a dad---why would he NEED a coach?!)
Children who think that everything must be spoon-fed to them may ALWAYS be
looking for a teacher. We're trying to raise children who love learning and
who are naturally GOOD at it. Who aren't searching for teachers for every
little thing. If they KNOW they learned to read and do math on their own (THE
two biggies for SCHOOL), they'll know they can do anything---although mine
both know that now---and one can't read! <G>
Maybe THAT'S IT! That school has brainwashed people to believe that those two
things are SO difficult--- that children MUST have a "trained" teacher to do
it TO them? What unschoolers learn is that those two things are actually JUST
as easy as walking and talking and anything else they want to do!
That's it! DAMN!
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
rubyprincesstsg@... writes:
> They might not call it "lessons" but I would bet almost anything there wouldIt was an analogy---maybe not as good as I thought it was.
>
> be some "private coaches" involved. In my personal experience no matter
> how
> much you "know" something (baseball) you still will need extra coaching
> besides what you get on the field during a game or a regular practice.
> This
> is particularly true if your child has a "gift" for the sport and is
> looking
> to pursue it as a career as in the case of Tiger Woods. I bet he would
> find
> the absolute best coach for his child he could.
>
> Call it by any name and if you want to be REALLY good at something it takes
>
> more than just game time to get that way.
>
A child surrounded by books and the written word and speaking parents will
NATURALLY pick up language and reading. A child surrounded by signing parents
will NATURALLY pick up sign language. A child surrounded by numbers and
"math-out-loud" will NATURALLY pick up math. A child surrounded by golf
courses and balls and clubs and the best golfer around will NATURALLY pick up
golf from watching, asking, trying, watching some more, etc. (Hell---a child
with Tiger for a dad---why would he NEED a coach?!)
Children who think that everything must be spoon-fed to them may ALWAYS be
looking for a teacher. We're trying to raise children who love learning and
who are naturally GOOD at it. Who aren't searching for teachers for every
little thing. If they KNOW they learned to read and do math on their own (THE
two biggies for SCHOOL), they'll know they can do anything---although mine
both know that now---and one can't read! <G>
Maybe THAT'S IT! That school has brainwashed people to believe that those two
things are SO difficult--- that children MUST have a "trained" teacher to do
it TO them? What unschoolers learn is that those two things are actually JUST
as easy as walking and talking and anything else they want to do!
That's it! DAMN!
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 25/04/2003 17:26:28 Pacific Daylight Time,
diamondair@... writes:
please)
where do is see it or hear it,Robyn??
Nancy, drooling in BC
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
diamondair@... writes:
> Wondering if you have you ever listened to Viggo Mortensen reading his ownOk where do I sign up for this??????? Is this on tape, on video(Oh please
> poetry??? Yummy. And so much better than that boring old professor in my
> English Lit class ;-)
>
please)
where do is see it or hear it,Robyn??
Nancy, drooling in BC
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Tia Leschke
>They just watch and have no fear of failure. No fear about trying*That's* the key!
> it.
Tia
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
saftety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Ben Franklin
leschke@...
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/25/2003 5:09:14 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
give you one reason that golfing or baseball or basketball MIGHT require a
coach and SCA combat (which I am completely unfamiliar with but trust your
judgment that it doesn't require a coach) the one BIG difference, THOUSANDS
of dollars in scholarships, endorsements, and a possible pro career. I'm not
saying it's good or bad but if your child appears to have a natural talent
and loves something that could very well lead to a multi million dollar
career, to me that would be reasons parents choose private coaches. Again,
not my judgment as to whether it's right or wrong.
I've already said we've had private coaches for different things my children
wanted to do, even the child who was practically born with a baseball in his
hand wanted private coaches at some point, he got them.
Maybe it's just simply about what the child WANTS. If they ask, then it's OK
to provide that for them, but if the parent is PUSHING it, it's probably not
a good thing.
I think sometimes it just a play on words. If you child had the opportunity
to study/play with someone they highly looked up to for their skill at what
ever you child enjoys and your child spent a given amount of time with them
say playing games or SCA or whatever, it would be like mentoring and a good
thing. Basically with some coaches it's the same thing, you get to spend
time with them learning the things YOU want so much to like them but sports
people charge you for it and call it coaching. Some don't charge all the
time though, if they think you're good enough, they're glad to have the
opportunity to say they coached __________________.
So while a lot of changing in thinking has to be done to get to the point
some of you are in your unschooling journey, sometimes I'm finding out it's
just different words for the same thing. I'm learning to sort out the
differences.
Thank you all for your input, I greatly appreciate it.
glena
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
> Try to look at the range from never having a coached moment and always haveSo some things MIGHT require or desire a coach and something don't? I can
> a
> full time coach, and THERE is the answer.
>
give you one reason that golfing or baseball or basketball MIGHT require a
coach and SCA combat (which I am completely unfamiliar with but trust your
judgment that it doesn't require a coach) the one BIG difference, THOUSANDS
of dollars in scholarships, endorsements, and a possible pro career. I'm not
saying it's good or bad but if your child appears to have a natural talent
and loves something that could very well lead to a multi million dollar
career, to me that would be reasons parents choose private coaches. Again,
not my judgment as to whether it's right or wrong.
I've already said we've had private coaches for different things my children
wanted to do, even the child who was practically born with a baseball in his
hand wanted private coaches at some point, he got them.
Maybe it's just simply about what the child WANTS. If they ask, then it's OK
to provide that for them, but if the parent is PUSHING it, it's probably not
a good thing.
I think sometimes it just a play on words. If you child had the opportunity
to study/play with someone they highly looked up to for their skill at what
ever you child enjoys and your child spent a given amount of time with them
say playing games or SCA or whatever, it would be like mentoring and a good
thing. Basically with some coaches it's the same thing, you get to spend
time with them learning the things YOU want so much to like them but sports
people charge you for it and call it coaching. Some don't charge all the
time though, if they think you're good enough, they're glad to have the
opportunity to say they coached __________________.
So while a lot of changing in thinking has to be done to get to the point
some of you are in your unschooling journey, sometimes I'm finding out it's
just different words for the same thing. I'm learning to sort out the
differences.
Thank you all for your input, I greatly appreciate it.
glena
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]