Heather

Thank you for the feedback on the praise bit, most of what you have offered
I already do, so I guess I'm on the right path. However I do like some of
Sandra's suggestions about asking how she came to make/build/plan something,
to give her a chance to to explain and understand how she came to make it.
And it makes sense to give her feedback as if she were an adult, I'll have
to remember that!
Thanks,
Heather
----- Original Message -----
From: <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2003 6:24 AM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Digest Number 3334



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------------------------------------------------------------------------

There are 15 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. Re: Praise
From: "kayb85" <sheran@...>
2. Re: Re: question about social help
From: Tim and Maureen <tmthomas@...>
3. Re: FLORIDA Intro
From: "joanna514" <Wilkinson6@...>
4. Re: FLORIDA Intro
From: "joanna514" <Wilkinson6@...>
5. Re: Re: kids and sensory needs
From: HaHaMommy@...
6. Re: Praise
From: "jmcseals SEALS" <jmcseals@...>
7. unschooling babies
From: starsuncloud@...
8. Re: Praise
From: "Mary" <mummy124@...>
9. Re: Praise
From: "Mary" <mummy124@...>
10. Re: unschooling babies
From: "jmcseals SEALS" <jmcseals@...>
11. Subject: Re: newbie here
From: Ann <anns@...>
12. words...was Subject: Bouncing list emails
From: Ann <anns@...>
13. Re: Praise
From: SandraDodd@...
14. RE: words...
From: "Sorcha" <sorcha-aisling@...>
15. Re: Definition of unschooling, ( preschool years)
From: grlynbl@...


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Message: 1
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 02:56:56 -0000
From: "kayb85" <sheran@...>
Subject: Re: Praise


When my little ones bring me something they made that they're very
pleased with, I make a fuss over them.


What I don't do is tell them that if they make their beds and brush
their teeth every day they get stickers or praise. They don't get
praised for things that I tell them to do in order for me to get them
to keep doing them, but they get encouraged when they do something on
their own that they're happy about.

I think that the thing you don't want to do with praise is try to get
them to do stuff by praising them. In other words, you don't want to
withhold kind, affirming, words that tell your child she's a
wonderful person until she does something that you consider
praiseworthy. You want to make sure she doesn't think she's worth
more as a person when she performs a certain way.

But when she says, "Look what I'm doing, Mom!", she's looking for you
to be excited with her. If my husband painted the windows while I
was out and I came home and he showed me, all excited about the work
he did, he would be a little disappointed if I didn't say, "Wow, you
did a really good job!"

Sheila


--- In [email protected], "Heather"
<moonlightmama@h...> wrote:
> Hi everyone,
> My daughter Kiele thrives on praise and I have heard two different
views about praise and how it affects children. The first view being
that it's good for their self esteem, it gives them pride in the work
that they have accomplished or with what ever they have done. The
second view is that a child who is always praised will only do things
to please adults rather than to please herself, to hear others talk
good about her. Kiele looks for praise constantly although I do see
the pride that she takes in her work whether it's building with
blocks or coloring a picture, however she looks for my approval to
see if I like what she has done. I know that this is normal for a 4
year old, but I was just wondering if giving her praise all the time
for everything that she does is good for her? If anyone has some
pointers on this I would appreciate it...
> Thanks
> Heather
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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Message: 2
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 19:59:26 -0700
From: Tim and Maureen <tmthomas@...>
Subject: Re: Re: question about social help


----- Original Message -----
From: zenmomma2kids
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, April 19, 2003 10:15 AM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: question about social help



>

He's also focused on making friendships through the activities that
he is good at (or at least enjoys), like computer gaming, D&D, etc.
Right now he is also finding that he can connect with older (16/17)
girls. He's got a couple of friends who are girls right now. He's
also always been better at connecting with adults than kids his own
age.

Thank you for your kind words. Funny how I couldn't think of focusing on
her strong points.Guess i was feeling a bit funky.Molly is still trying to
find what she is good at. She has a sister (the hypersensitive one)who is
mega quick and finds every activity easy and is noticed by others right away
for her immediate skill. Hard on Molly.Her sister does not rub this in at
all but molly notices it none the less. We have been focusing on accepting
herself for where she is at.



Has she always been unschooled? Does she have any school induced
stuff to get over?

Molly has been home now for 5 years and really unschooled for 2-3 years.
I'm not sure if she has stuff still to get over. I guess being put in
special reading and needing extra help always.

!


I like the idea of finding areas for her to use her body individually.
She so far loves rythmic gymnastics as there is no focus on others ability.
She has only been involved for about 1 month.She laughed with one girl over
a move they made and was very excited. This alone was social contact enough
for her. One girl is seeking her out .Molly is hesitant but we are working
on trying one visit and seeing how it goes. I am helping her with wording to
make the call.

>>

Help her find her strengths and don't focus too much attention on her
weaker points. Let her shine. That plus your support and love will
help her remain Whole.

Thank You again. I sometimes forget about this.

maureen

Yahoo! Groups Sponsor



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Message: 3
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 03:22:07 -0000
From: "joanna514" <Wilkinson6@...>
Subject: Re: FLORIDA Intro

> My in-laws are right near West Palm Beach in Lake Worth. We go down
> there, but not that often. Maybe once a year. I'll be sure to put
the
> word out next time we go. I love meeting other unschoolers!>>>


Cool! My parents live about 5 minutes from Lake Worth.
Also about 5 minutes from Dreher Park zoo. Dh and my dad took my
younger 2 to the zoo this past visit. I like to go there just to
climb the trees there in the park. I grew up climing trees like that.

>
> We have gone to the Dreher Park Zoo and Science Museum and
sometimes
> the Lion Country Safari. Our big find the last time we were down
was
> the Morikami Gardens. I'm not sure exactly where it was, but it was
> within 15 minutes of their house. It was this fabulous acreage of
zen
> gardens right in the middle of a bustling Florida avenue. Lots of
> information on the former Japanese settlers and gardens in general.
> Art work too. We loved it.


My Dad takes the grand kids to Lion Country Safari every Thankgiving.
The women go shopping that day. (We love Ross, TJ Max and Marshalls)
My mom has mentioned a garden that sounds like what you've
described. We'll have to check it out.

Let me know next time your heading down.
Joanna




>
> Life is good.
> ~Mary



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Message: 4
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 03:45:59 -0000
From: "joanna514" <Wilkinson6@...>
Subject: Re: FLORIDA Intro

--- In [email protected], "Maggy" <isaacray@b...>
wrote:
> I hear you and would love to get together! We are in West Palm
Beach, close to I-95 and Forest Hill Blvd. We will have to find a
place to meet, maybe Boca?
> Maggy


Hey!! My parents live right off of Forest Hill Blvd!
One block off the intercoastal, near S. Olive.
I grew up farther west, off Belvedere Rd., but they moved there about
5 years ago.
Hope to meet up with you in Nov.!
Joanna



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Message: 5
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 00:10:30 EDT
From: HaHaMommy@...
Subject: Re: Re: kids and sensory needs

In a message dated 4-18-2003 9:35:36 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
childe@... writes:

> >>I have a friend who tried "brushing" the skin of her kids before
> they took showers

I just wanted to throw in that this is also an incredible detox for your
system. Use long strokes that all lead toward your intestines. Try it on
yourself, it's AMAZING!
diana,
The wackiest widow westriver...
“I prefer to be true to myself, even at the hazard of incurring the ridicule
of others, rather than to be false, and to incur my own abhorrence.”
--Frederick Douglass


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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Message: 6
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 23:26:20 -0500
From: "jmcseals SEALS" <jmcseals@...>
Subject: Re: Praise

I think it often has to do with the type of praise being given. Truthful
praise, imho, can do no harm. I also think there is such a thing as
overdoing it, though. For example, pulling out the bells and whistles for
*every tiny little thing*. "WOW, you are the BEST child in the WHOLE ENTIRE
WORLD" is great here and there. We over did those type of statements with
our now 6 yr old and she went through quite a phase of letting EVERYONE know
just how incredibly wonderful she was at any opportunity. That tends to
turn people off, even their friends.

I take every opportunity to tell my children when they are doing something
right, nice, and so on. "Thanks for helping your sister with ________, that
was very nice of you." "I'm so proud of you for _____ all by yourself!"

Even using gentle parenting techniques, it is so easy to pay more attention
to the 'bad' things. I think the key is to *catch* our children being good
and doing well and honestly comment on those things. Offering unrealistic
praise *can* be detrimental to a child who *may* grow up thinking they can
do no wrong. There *may* also come a time, further down the road that they
become fearful of sharing important situations or times of bad judgment in
fear of what their parents might think of their *perfect* child.

I have a friend whose parents treated her as if she were THE best child on
earth. She became pregnant at 14 and went to her choir teacher at school to
confide because she was so terrified of letting her parents down. She truly
believed that they thought she was perfect.

I'm not trying to say this extreme situation is normal or even probable in
every circumstance. I just think we owe it to our children to be honest
with them and let them know that we ARE proud of them for their
accomplishments and will offer honest praise accordingly, but that they are
also allowed to make mistakes and that we will help them resolve their
mistakes and still love them regardless.

My 12 yr old made a rather large mistake recently and I calmly explained why
I was upset. A couple of days later, she wrote me a letter, apologizing,
suggesting a consequence very appropriate to the situation and offered an
appropriate solution. All on her own! When I told her how proud of her I
was and how impressed I was and kept going, she finally stopped me and said,
"Goolleeee Mom, you don't have to over do it or I might do it again!" Of
course, she was laughing but it was a wise lesson. I LOVE learning things
FROM my children! :)

Jennifer

Jennifer








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Message: 7
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 00:31:33 EDT
From: starsuncloud@...
Subject: unschooling babies

In a message dated 4/19/03 9:54:01 PM Central Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:

<<
Weird. What good does it do for a baby to identify birds? What good would
it do a child in New Mexico to identify a cardinal, unless just for fun?
>>

It sounds like the program that guy started (you know the "teach your baby
to
read" guy) called "teach your baby encyclopedic knowledge" or something like
that.
I looked into it many years ago (silly me) and couldn't believe the
flashcards and memorization stuff they were pushing on little babies!! It
was
ridiculous.
All so the kid could recognize different birds, names of things and
definitions.
It's all about the parents, not the child.
They feel oh-so-good when little Johnny can show off his incredible
knowledge.
Only problem is, if you can look it up in an encyclopedia, why does the kid
need to memorize it at all? How silly.
Sick people.

Ren
"The sun is shining--the sun is shining. That is the magic. The flowers
are
growing--the roots are stirring. That is the magic. Being alive is the
magic--being strong is the magic The magic is in me--the magic is in
me....It's in every one of us."

----Frances Hodgson Burnett


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Message: 8
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 00:37:56 -0400
From: "Mary" <mummy124@...>
Subject: Re: Praise

From: "Heather" <moonlightmama@...>


<<My daughter Kiele thrives on praise and I have heard two different views
about praise and how it affects children. The first view being that it's
good for their self esteem, it gives them pride in the work that they have
accomplished or with what ever they have done. The second view is that a
child who is always praised will only do things to please adults rather than
to please herself, to hear others talk good about her. Kiele looks for
praise constantly although I do see the pride that she takes in her work
whether it's building with blocks or coloring a picture, however she looks
for my approval to see if I like what she has done. I know that this is
normal for a 4 year old, but I was just wondering if giving her praise all
the time for everything that she does is good for her? If anyone has some
pointers on this I would appreciate it...>>


Of course when a child does something they are excited about, they want to
share and get a response back. One that will make them feel good. I also see
the point of how praising just everything isn't good either. I watch what I
say and how I say it. I make sure to comment on how much work it looks like
went into that picture they just did or how I love the way they used color.
Something else beside just "oh isn't that lovely, it's beautiful." Making
sure I praise the effort instead of just the picture. I think that makes a
big difference. Not just the result but the process to get there. I think
that helps so much with their self esteem and not always concentrating on
whether the end result will be to anyone else's satisfaction. I do this with
all comments, or I should say I try on most. Even with something like
cleaning up the playroom without me asking. Instead of just saying great
job, I will comment on how nice it was to do that because they know it makes
me feel good and how much time it took them and how organized everything
looks. Hope this helps some.

Mary B





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Message: 9
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 00:40:11 -0400
From: "Mary" <mummy124@...>
Subject: Re: Praise

I also wanted to add to my last post that if it's something my child did
creatively, like a picture or making up a game, I always ask them how they
feel about what they did. Sometimes they are unhappy with it and just asking
to see what someone else thinks. If that's the case, I can hear why they
aren't satisfied and help them figure out a better way or point out other
good things they may have not seen.

Mary B




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Message: 10
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 23:59:01 -0500
From: "jmcseals SEALS" <jmcseals@...>
Subject: Re: unschooling babies

Yes, all I could think of was "Keeping up with the Joneses". Quite sad.
Some of the things people put these poor children through is just insane!
Don't you just know those poor babies are sitting there wondering how to
roll their eyes in the back of their little heads! >BG<

I saw a similar program called 'teach your baby math' or something to that
effect. They have these flash cards almost a foot square with different
patterns of red dots and the baby is supposedly supposed to learn how to do
the four math facts by looking at random dot pictures. Looks like a head
start to blindness to me! I always wonder if those kids were the ones who
started those pictures you have to stare past to actually see the form
through all the muck. Ah well, I'm rambling again...

Jennifer

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Message: 11
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 01:06:30 -0400
From: Ann <anns@...>
Subject: Subject: Re: newbie here

Sandra, When I tell my daughter she's "stuck with me" it's in the
context of we, her family, will not abandon her. No matter what. She's
come up with some rather interesting "Even if..." questions, and
sometimes that becomes a game, but it's also very very serious. With
her recent query into belief systems (swim team locker room discussions
with a "fundy" teammate has triggered a rash of conversations!) plus our
current health issues (my cancer recurrence/current chemo & DH's
upcoming major surgery), the "stuck with me" has expanded into
discussing what will/may happen after death does separate us. <sigh>
We've had some really amazing talks. Yes, including running, suicide,
murder, going to jail, heaven/hell/reincarnation/etc, how would I
feel/what would I do if she died, she'd like to live with Aunt P but
Aunt P's even older and what if she dies, wills & inheritance, oh my, on
and on. Addressing a lot of things, curiosity, security, laws, her
sib's trials growing up (one legal name change at 18) and my own (my
father died when I was 4), what it takes (& means) to earn a living...

Ann

<< He tested us unbelievably,...my husband (ex-marine) finally looked
him straight in his eyes, after a major
meltdown on son's part, and said, "get it all out, give us all you've
got, but you're not going anywhere. You're stuck with us." >>

I missed the original of this, but wanted to point out just on principle
that
kids are NOT stuck. They can run or they can kill themselves. I've
known
kids who've done both. Trapping and holding them too hard isn't
guaranteed
to raise them to adulthood.

Sandra


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Message: 12
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 01:18:28 -0400
From: Ann <anns@...>
Subject: words...was Subject: Bouncing list emails

And then there are those "massive fires" so frequently in the news.

And the huge sign (up year-round) near here: Christmas Tree's.

And our people in our family tends to respond to requests to "Please
move" by wiggling.


Do any of you wear out dictionaries? We do.

Ann


>>"literally tons"? "Tons" is a weight, not a volume. "Literally" should
not be
there if the "tons" is referring to volume (which it is)! :-)



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Message: 13
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 01:22:49 EDT
From: SandraDodd@...
Subject: Re: Praise

Too much gushing can cause the child to start not to really trust your
judgment, and so too much praise can prevent you from being able to honestly
praise them in the future.

When kids were little and would show me something I try to think what I
would
do if it were an adult who was showing me some project or hobby of theirs.
I
could converse with them about it, ask them questions to draw them out to
tell me more about how they did it, and what the characters are doing, or
where they got the idea, or something that creates more understanding and
appreciation for me, and gives them a chance to explain more about what they
made/built/wrote/planned.

Today some friends came over who hadn't been over for a few months, and
Keith
was showing them his yard project. Then we ended up in the garage to get a
tool, and they saw his current wood carving. Thinking back on those
conversations, as candid examples of honest interaction involving praise,
they didn't gush, they didn't use "the poodle voice," and they didn't say
anything like "I'm so proud of you" or "This is WONderful." They asked
questions about what kind of gate he was going to use, what kind of tree one
tree was, and about the wood, they talked about poplar wood and carving
patterns and what he could do to make his knotwork horse look less
dragonlike. He told them about the bed he's making. We talked about
medieval tents (we've discovered a new Viking tent design).

There were no kids around. Keith was getting some very positive feedback,
but they were also drawing him out to teach them more about what he was
doing.

Holly was doing some painting last week, and using nail polish for some of
her paint. We talked about textures and whether other paints and markers
could go with it or whether they chemically clashed.

I ask sometimes if she wants me to keep something for her, or if she wants
to
put it up. Sometimes it's yes, and sometimes no.

I've seen some parents say "I LOVE this and I want to put it on the wall"
when the kid might not be finished with it, or might have just wanted
someone
to say "I like the way you wrote your name on that picture."

As kids get older, one thing they're learning from us is how to act with
others, and so if we treat them like other people instead of like kids, we
model respect and interest instead of just praise.

When my husband shows me something he's making (or I show him something new,
like a webpage or a sewing project) we can TELL how the other person feels
about it, so saying "How do you feel about this?" seems to impersonal for
people who live together and can read each other already. If a kid brings a
picture she doesn't like, wouldn't the mom know?

One way I found to keep from just making mom-noises was to remember not to
say "This is good." I don't KNOW something is "good," and it makes better
sense (and better communication, and conversation) for me to say "I really
like this" ("I" messages) or "How pretty, especially the trees."

Sandra






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Message: 14
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 02:08:30 -0400
From: "Sorcha" <sorcha-aisling@...>
Subject: RE: words...

My pet peeve is the "ten items or less" aisles.

Sorcha




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Message: 15
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 20:41:43 EDT
From: grlynbl@...
Subject: Re: Definition of unschooling, ( preschool years)

In a message dated 4/19/03 8:13:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
heidi@...
writes:

> I'd have to say, as opposed enrolling the kid in my next door neighbor's
> licensed-for-12-we-do-activities-at-10am and
> 3pm-and-structure-everything-else-too day care. She's practically got a
> preschool running over there, complete with 'everyone sit down and glue
the
>
> pom-poms on the xerox'd picture of a rabbit for easter' and "everyone sing
> the alphabet song!"
>

Anna ( my 13 yo dd) and I were just talking about preschool and daycare the
other day. I used to work in a preschool, and it was just like you
describe.
I loved being around the kids, but I HATED the "make out your lesson plan"
demands from the director ( who was really just operating under the command
of the preschool Board of Directors) Anna and I talked about how totally
ludicrous it was to try to mold those little kids to such a structured day.
We talked about ways to nurture and "take care" of 10 2 yos at one time.
How to handle "nap/quiet" time for kids who need and want to sleep and kids
who don't, meal times, outside time.. all the standard daycare routines.
Anna had solutions and ideas that were so wise and sensitive to children.
I
said, "Anna, you are so wise, you must have lived 3 lives" .. :-)

I know that some parents have to work. They have to put thier children in
daycare. Everything I have learned about children in my own experiences,
coupled with my recent embracing of unschooling, has confirmed to me that
the
Montessori method of preschool/daycare is the best alternative IF a parent
has to put thier child in an out of the home child care situation. My neice
and nephew go to a public Montessori school and they absolutely love it. If
they didnt go there, my sister would most likely homeschool.

As we discussed Montessori methods, Anna said that she wants to have a
Montessori preschool, and maybe even a Montessori "grade" school, when she
grows up. I am going to call our local Montessori school next week and see
if she can volunteer. She is VERY excited!

Teresa


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