Praise
Heather
Hi everyone,
My daughter Kiele thrives on praise and I have heard two different views about praise and how it affects children. The first view being that it's good for their self esteem, it gives them pride in the work that they have accomplished or with what ever they have done. The second view is that a child who is always praised will only do things to please adults rather than to please herself, to hear others talk good about her. Kiele looks for praise constantly although I do see the pride that she takes in her work whether it's building with blocks or coloring a picture, however she looks for my approval to see if I like what she has done. I know that this is normal for a 4 year old, but I was just wondering if giving her praise all the time for everything that she does is good for her? If anyone has some pointers on this I would appreciate it...
Thanks
Heather
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
My daughter Kiele thrives on praise and I have heard two different views about praise and how it affects children. The first view being that it's good for their self esteem, it gives them pride in the work that they have accomplished or with what ever they have done. The second view is that a child who is always praised will only do things to please adults rather than to please herself, to hear others talk good about her. Kiele looks for praise constantly although I do see the pride that she takes in her work whether it's building with blocks or coloring a picture, however she looks for my approval to see if I like what she has done. I know that this is normal for a 4 year old, but I was just wondering if giving her praise all the time for everything that she does is good for her? If anyone has some pointers on this I would appreciate it...
Thanks
Heather
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
kayb85
When my little ones bring me something they made that they're very
pleased with, I make a fuss over them.
What I don't do is tell them that if they make their beds and brush
their teeth every day they get stickers or praise. They don't get
praised for things that I tell them to do in order for me to get them
to keep doing them, but they get encouraged when they do something on
their own that they're happy about.
I think that the thing you don't want to do with praise is try to get
them to do stuff by praising them. In other words, you don't want to
withhold kind, affirming, words that tell your child she's a
wonderful person until she does something that you consider
praiseworthy. You want to make sure she doesn't think she's worth
more as a person when she performs a certain way.
But when she says, "Look what I'm doing, Mom!", she's looking for you
to be excited with her. If my husband painted the windows while I
was out and I came home and he showed me, all excited about the work
he did, he would be a little disappointed if I didn't say, "Wow, you
did a really good job!"
Sheila
--- In [email protected], "Heather"
<moonlightmama@h...> wrote:
that it's good for their self esteem, it gives them pride in the work
that they have accomplished or with what ever they have done. The
second view is that a child who is always praised will only do things
to please adults rather than to please herself, to hear others talk
good about her. Kiele looks for praise constantly although I do see
the pride that she takes in her work whether it's building with
blocks or coloring a picture, however she looks for my approval to
see if I like what she has done. I know that this is normal for a 4
year old, but I was just wondering if giving her praise all the time
for everything that she does is good for her? If anyone has some
pointers on this I would appreciate it...
pleased with, I make a fuss over them.
What I don't do is tell them that if they make their beds and brush
their teeth every day they get stickers or praise. They don't get
praised for things that I tell them to do in order for me to get them
to keep doing them, but they get encouraged when they do something on
their own that they're happy about.
I think that the thing you don't want to do with praise is try to get
them to do stuff by praising them. In other words, you don't want to
withhold kind, affirming, words that tell your child she's a
wonderful person until she does something that you consider
praiseworthy. You want to make sure she doesn't think she's worth
more as a person when she performs a certain way.
But when she says, "Look what I'm doing, Mom!", she's looking for you
to be excited with her. If my husband painted the windows while I
was out and I came home and he showed me, all excited about the work
he did, he would be a little disappointed if I didn't say, "Wow, you
did a really good job!"
Sheila
--- In [email protected], "Heather"
<moonlightmama@h...> wrote:
> Hi everyone,views about praise and how it affects children. The first view being
> My daughter Kiele thrives on praise and I have heard two different
that it's good for their self esteem, it gives them pride in the work
that they have accomplished or with what ever they have done. The
second view is that a child who is always praised will only do things
to please adults rather than to please herself, to hear others talk
good about her. Kiele looks for praise constantly although I do see
the pride that she takes in her work whether it's building with
blocks or coloring a picture, however she looks for my approval to
see if I like what she has done. I know that this is normal for a 4
year old, but I was just wondering if giving her praise all the time
for everything that she does is good for her? If anyone has some
pointers on this I would appreciate it...
> Thanks
> Heather
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
jmcseals SEALS
I think it often has to do with the type of praise being given. Truthful
praise, imho, can do no harm. I also think there is such a thing as
overdoing it, though. For example, pulling out the bells and whistles for
*every tiny little thing*. "WOW, you are the BEST child in the WHOLE ENTIRE
WORLD" is great here and there. We over did those type of statements with
our now 6 yr old and she went through quite a phase of letting EVERYONE know
just how incredibly wonderful she was at any opportunity. That tends to
turn people off, even their friends.
I take every opportunity to tell my children when they are doing something
right, nice, and so on. "Thanks for helping your sister with ________, that
was very nice of you." "I'm so proud of you for _____ all by yourself!"
Even using gentle parenting techniques, it is so easy to pay more attention
to the 'bad' things. I think the key is to *catch* our children being good
and doing well and honestly comment on those things. Offering unrealistic
praise *can* be detrimental to a child who *may* grow up thinking they can
do no wrong. There *may* also come a time, further down the road that they
become fearful of sharing important situations or times of bad judgment in
fear of what their parents might think of their *perfect* child.
I have a friend whose parents treated her as if she were THE best child on
earth. She became pregnant at 14 and went to her choir teacher at school to
confide because she was so terrified of letting her parents down. She truly
believed that they thought she was perfect.
I'm not trying to say this extreme situation is normal or even probable in
every circumstance. I just think we owe it to our children to be honest
with them and let them know that we ARE proud of them for their
accomplishments and will offer honest praise accordingly, but that they are
also allowed to make mistakes and that we will help them resolve their
mistakes and still love them regardless.
My 12 yr old made a rather large mistake recently and I calmly explained why
I was upset. A couple of days later, she wrote me a letter, apologizing,
suggesting a consequence very appropriate to the situation and offered an
appropriate solution. All on her own! When I told her how proud of her I
was and how impressed I was and kept going, she finally stopped me and said,
"Goolleeee Mom, you don't have to over do it or I might do it again!" Of
course, she was laughing but it was a wise lesson. I LOVE learning things
FROM my children! :)
Jennifer
Jennifer
_________________________________________________________________
Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
praise, imho, can do no harm. I also think there is such a thing as
overdoing it, though. For example, pulling out the bells and whistles for
*every tiny little thing*. "WOW, you are the BEST child in the WHOLE ENTIRE
WORLD" is great here and there. We over did those type of statements with
our now 6 yr old and she went through quite a phase of letting EVERYONE know
just how incredibly wonderful she was at any opportunity. That tends to
turn people off, even their friends.
I take every opportunity to tell my children when they are doing something
right, nice, and so on. "Thanks for helping your sister with ________, that
was very nice of you." "I'm so proud of you for _____ all by yourself!"
Even using gentle parenting techniques, it is so easy to pay more attention
to the 'bad' things. I think the key is to *catch* our children being good
and doing well and honestly comment on those things. Offering unrealistic
praise *can* be detrimental to a child who *may* grow up thinking they can
do no wrong. There *may* also come a time, further down the road that they
become fearful of sharing important situations or times of bad judgment in
fear of what their parents might think of their *perfect* child.
I have a friend whose parents treated her as if she were THE best child on
earth. She became pregnant at 14 and went to her choir teacher at school to
confide because she was so terrified of letting her parents down. She truly
believed that they thought she was perfect.
I'm not trying to say this extreme situation is normal or even probable in
every circumstance. I just think we owe it to our children to be honest
with them and let them know that we ARE proud of them for their
accomplishments and will offer honest praise accordingly, but that they are
also allowed to make mistakes and that we will help them resolve their
mistakes and still love them regardless.
My 12 yr old made a rather large mistake recently and I calmly explained why
I was upset. A couple of days later, she wrote me a letter, apologizing,
suggesting a consequence very appropriate to the situation and offered an
appropriate solution. All on her own! When I told her how proud of her I
was and how impressed I was and kept going, she finally stopped me and said,
"Goolleeee Mom, you don't have to over do it or I might do it again!" Of
course, she was laughing but it was a wise lesson. I LOVE learning things
FROM my children! :)
Jennifer
Jennifer
_________________________________________________________________
Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8.
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Mary
From: "Heather" <moonlightmama@...>
<<My daughter Kiele thrives on praise and I have heard two different views
about praise and how it affects children. The first view being that it's
good for their self esteem, it gives them pride in the work that they have
accomplished or with what ever they have done. The second view is that a
child who is always praised will only do things to please adults rather than
to please herself, to hear others talk good about her. Kiele looks for
praise constantly although I do see the pride that she takes in her work
whether it's building with blocks or coloring a picture, however she looks
for my approval to see if I like what she has done. I know that this is
normal for a 4 year old, but I was just wondering if giving her praise all
the time for everything that she does is good for her? If anyone has some
pointers on this I would appreciate it...>>
Of course when a child does something they are excited about, they want to
share and get a response back. One that will make them feel good. I also see
the point of how praising just everything isn't good either. I watch what I
say and how I say it. I make sure to comment on how much work it looks like
went into that picture they just did or how I love the way they used color.
Something else beside just "oh isn't that lovely, it's beautiful." Making
sure I praise the effort instead of just the picture. I think that makes a
big difference. Not just the result but the process to get there. I think
that helps so much with their self esteem and not always concentrating on
whether the end result will be to anyone else's satisfaction. I do this with
all comments, or I should say I try on most. Even with something like
cleaning up the playroom without me asking. Instead of just saying great
job, I will comment on how nice it was to do that because they know it makes
me feel good and how much time it took them and how organized everything
looks. Hope this helps some.
Mary B
<<My daughter Kiele thrives on praise and I have heard two different views
about praise and how it affects children. The first view being that it's
good for their self esteem, it gives them pride in the work that they have
accomplished or with what ever they have done. The second view is that a
child who is always praised will only do things to please adults rather than
to please herself, to hear others talk good about her. Kiele looks for
praise constantly although I do see the pride that she takes in her work
whether it's building with blocks or coloring a picture, however she looks
for my approval to see if I like what she has done. I know that this is
normal for a 4 year old, but I was just wondering if giving her praise all
the time for everything that she does is good for her? If anyone has some
pointers on this I would appreciate it...>>
Of course when a child does something they are excited about, they want to
share and get a response back. One that will make them feel good. I also see
the point of how praising just everything isn't good either. I watch what I
say and how I say it. I make sure to comment on how much work it looks like
went into that picture they just did or how I love the way they used color.
Something else beside just "oh isn't that lovely, it's beautiful." Making
sure I praise the effort instead of just the picture. I think that makes a
big difference. Not just the result but the process to get there. I think
that helps so much with their self esteem and not always concentrating on
whether the end result will be to anyone else's satisfaction. I do this with
all comments, or I should say I try on most. Even with something like
cleaning up the playroom without me asking. Instead of just saying great
job, I will comment on how nice it was to do that because they know it makes
me feel good and how much time it took them and how organized everything
looks. Hope this helps some.
Mary B
Mary
I also wanted to add to my last post that if it's something my child did
creatively, like a picture or making up a game, I always ask them how they
feel about what they did. Sometimes they are unhappy with it and just asking
to see what someone else thinks. If that's the case, I can hear why they
aren't satisfied and help them figure out a better way or point out other
good things they may have not seen.
Mary B
creatively, like a picture or making up a game, I always ask them how they
feel about what they did. Sometimes they are unhappy with it and just asking
to see what someone else thinks. If that's the case, I can hear why they
aren't satisfied and help them figure out a better way or point out other
good things they may have not seen.
Mary B
[email protected]
Too much gushing can cause the child to start not to really trust your
judgment, and so too much praise can prevent you from being able to honestly
praise them in the future.
When kids were little and would show me something I try to think what I would
do if it were an adult who was showing me some project or hobby of theirs. I
could converse with them about it, ask them questions to draw them out to
tell me more about how they did it, and what the characters are doing, or
where they got the idea, or something that creates more understanding and
appreciation for me, and gives them a chance to explain more about what they
made/built/wrote/planned.
Today some friends came over who hadn't been over for a few months, and Keith
was showing them his yard project. Then we ended up in the garage to get a
tool, and they saw his current wood carving. Thinking back on those
conversations, as candid examples of honest interaction involving praise,
they didn't gush, they didn't use "the poodle voice," and they didn't say
anything like "I'm so proud of you" or "This is WONderful." They asked
questions about what kind of gate he was going to use, what kind of tree one
tree was, and about the wood, they talked about poplar wood and carving
patterns and what he could do to make his knotwork horse look less
dragonlike. He told them about the bed he's making. We talked about
medieval tents (we've discovered a new Viking tent design).
There were no kids around. Keith was getting some very positive feedback,
but they were also drawing him out to teach them more about what he was doing.
Holly was doing some painting last week, and using nail polish for some of
her paint. We talked about textures and whether other paints and markers
could go with it or whether they chemically clashed.
I ask sometimes if she wants me to keep something for her, or if she wants to
put it up. Sometimes it's yes, and sometimes no.
I've seen some parents say "I LOVE this and I want to put it on the wall"
when the kid might not be finished with it, or might have just wanted someone
to say "I like the way you wrote your name on that picture."
As kids get older, one thing they're learning from us is how to act with
others, and so if we treat them like other people instead of like kids, we
model respect and interest instead of just praise.
When my husband shows me something he's making (or I show him something new,
like a webpage or a sewing project) we can TELL how the other person feels
about it, so saying "How do you feel about this?" seems to impersonal for
people who live together and can read each other already. If a kid brings a
picture she doesn't like, wouldn't the mom know?
One way I found to keep from just making mom-noises was to remember not to
say "This is good." I don't KNOW something is "good," and it makes better
sense (and better communication, and conversation) for me to say "I really
like this" ("I" messages) or "How pretty, especially the trees."
Sandra
judgment, and so too much praise can prevent you from being able to honestly
praise them in the future.
When kids were little and would show me something I try to think what I would
do if it were an adult who was showing me some project or hobby of theirs. I
could converse with them about it, ask them questions to draw them out to
tell me more about how they did it, and what the characters are doing, or
where they got the idea, or something that creates more understanding and
appreciation for me, and gives them a chance to explain more about what they
made/built/wrote/planned.
Today some friends came over who hadn't been over for a few months, and Keith
was showing them his yard project. Then we ended up in the garage to get a
tool, and they saw his current wood carving. Thinking back on those
conversations, as candid examples of honest interaction involving praise,
they didn't gush, they didn't use "the poodle voice," and they didn't say
anything like "I'm so proud of you" or "This is WONderful." They asked
questions about what kind of gate he was going to use, what kind of tree one
tree was, and about the wood, they talked about poplar wood and carving
patterns and what he could do to make his knotwork horse look less
dragonlike. He told them about the bed he's making. We talked about
medieval tents (we've discovered a new Viking tent design).
There were no kids around. Keith was getting some very positive feedback,
but they were also drawing him out to teach them more about what he was doing.
Holly was doing some painting last week, and using nail polish for some of
her paint. We talked about textures and whether other paints and markers
could go with it or whether they chemically clashed.
I ask sometimes if she wants me to keep something for her, or if she wants to
put it up. Sometimes it's yes, and sometimes no.
I've seen some parents say "I LOVE this and I want to put it on the wall"
when the kid might not be finished with it, or might have just wanted someone
to say "I like the way you wrote your name on that picture."
As kids get older, one thing they're learning from us is how to act with
others, and so if we treat them like other people instead of like kids, we
model respect and interest instead of just praise.
When my husband shows me something he's making (or I show him something new,
like a webpage or a sewing project) we can TELL how the other person feels
about it, so saying "How do you feel about this?" seems to impersonal for
people who live together and can read each other already. If a kid brings a
picture she doesn't like, wouldn't the mom know?
One way I found to keep from just making mom-noises was to remember not to
say "This is good." I don't KNOW something is "good," and it makes better
sense (and better communication, and conversation) for me to say "I really
like this" ("I" messages) or "How pretty, especially the trees."
Sandra
Angela
Heather,
The book Punished By Rewards by Alfie Kohn addresses this issue. You
might want to read check it out.
Angela in Maine
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
The book Punished By Rewards by Alfie Kohn addresses this issue. You
might want to read check it out.
Angela in Maine
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/20/03 12:27:29 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
jmcseals@... writes:
want to criticize a childs efforts by saying.. UHHG, that is awful, that is
so ugly, that is worthless.. BUT, I have also read ( and heard) that if you
constantly tell a child thier efforts are WONDERFUL, GREAT, THE BEST!, and
they know in thier hearts its really lousy, then that breaks down thier trust
in you. A good way to approach this and open up the lines of communication
is to ask the child what they think about the "thing", or how they feel about
it. For example, a child paints a picture and brings it to you, all
excited.. LOOK Mommy, LOOK! at my picture.. isn't it pretty? OH, let me see,
yes, I think it is pretty, what do you think? Do you like it? Maybe say,
my favorite part is the "X", what do you like best about it? Then you can
talk about the picture, maybe the kid will say, I love the "X" but, I think
the "Y" look stupid.. Ask why they think the Y looks stupid, how could they
fix it.. etc etc.
Another good way to encourage children without "labeling" them is to
praise them with a variety of adjectives. Instead of always saying.. "good,
great, wonderful, smart", use more direct and descriptive words .. For
instance, instead of saying. "oh that is a great picture".. say.. Oh, you are
so creative and expressive with your paints". Instead of saying, "you are
so smart for figuring that out", say, "that took some real logic and
calcuation to solve" Say a child picks up all of thier toys and tidys a room
up without being asked to help. Instead of saying, oh, what a good boy,
thank you so much.. Say, Thank you, you are so considerate and helpful. You
are an excellent organizer.
I have always tried to express to my children what wonderful qualities they
have without lumping them all under "good or smart" categories. I think it
strengthens thier sense of self and uniqueness and boosts their self esteem.
Teresa
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
jmcseals@... writes:
> TruthfulI think this is very important.. the "truthful" part. Of course, you don't
> praise, imho, can do no harm.
want to criticize a childs efforts by saying.. UHHG, that is awful, that is
so ugly, that is worthless.. BUT, I have also read ( and heard) that if you
constantly tell a child thier efforts are WONDERFUL, GREAT, THE BEST!, and
they know in thier hearts its really lousy, then that breaks down thier trust
in you. A good way to approach this and open up the lines of communication
is to ask the child what they think about the "thing", or how they feel about
it. For example, a child paints a picture and brings it to you, all
excited.. LOOK Mommy, LOOK! at my picture.. isn't it pretty? OH, let me see,
yes, I think it is pretty, what do you think? Do you like it? Maybe say,
my favorite part is the "X", what do you like best about it? Then you can
talk about the picture, maybe the kid will say, I love the "X" but, I think
the "Y" look stupid.. Ask why they think the Y looks stupid, how could they
fix it.. etc etc.
Another good way to encourage children without "labeling" them is to
praise them with a variety of adjectives. Instead of always saying.. "good,
great, wonderful, smart", use more direct and descriptive words .. For
instance, instead of saying. "oh that is a great picture".. say.. Oh, you are
so creative and expressive with your paints". Instead of saying, "you are
so smart for figuring that out", say, "that took some real logic and
calcuation to solve" Say a child picks up all of thier toys and tidys a room
up without being asked to help. Instead of saying, oh, what a good boy,
thank you so much.. Say, Thank you, you are so considerate and helpful. You
are an excellent organizer.
I have always tried to express to my children what wonderful qualities they
have without lumping them all under "good or smart" categories. I think it
strengthens thier sense of self and uniqueness and boosts their self esteem.
Teresa
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/20/03 12:42:57 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
mummy124@... writes:
should have read all the responses before I made mine.. I could have just
said.> DITTO to Mary :-)
.. Well, I can say.. "Great minds think alike"
Teresa
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
mummy124@... writes:
> I also wanted to add to my last post that if it's something my child didWell, I just basically said the same thing that Mary did.. LOL.. I guess I
> creatively, like a picture or making up a game, I always ask them how they
> feel about what they did.
should have read all the responses before I made mine.. I could have just
said.> DITTO to Mary :-)
.. Well, I can say.. "Great minds think alike"
Teresa
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kelli Traaseth
Heather,
I don't know if you're familiar with Life Learning Magazine? In the last few months they have run a series of articles on praising your child. I think they've been very interesting and helpful. They are on the same tone as Punished by Rewards, that someone else suggested. This author is Naomi Aldort. It says also that your can read her articles at www.naturalchild.org and other sites.
Kelli
I don't know if you're familiar with Life Learning Magazine? In the last few months they have run a series of articles on praising your child. I think they've been very interesting and helpful. They are on the same tone as Punished by Rewards, that someone else suggested. This author is Naomi Aldort. It says also that your can read her articles at www.naturalchild.org and other sites.
Kelli
----- Original Message -----
From: Heather
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, April 19, 2003 9:43 PM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Praise
Hi everyone,
My daughter Kiele thrives on praise and I have heard two different views about praise and how it affects children. The first view being that it's good for their self esteem, it gives them pride in the work that they have accomplished or with what ever they have done. The second view is that a child who is always praised will only do things to please adults rather than to please herself, to hear others talk good about her. Kiele looks for praise constantly although I do see the pride that she takes in her work whether it's building with blocks or coloring a picture, however she looks for my approval to see if I like what she has done. I know that this is normal for a 4 year old, but I was just wondering if giving her praise all the time for everything that she does is good for her? If anyone has some pointers on this I would appreciate it...
Thanks
Heather
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/20/03 10:41:30 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
treegoddess@... writes:
Pam G.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
treegoddess@... writes:
> Ooooh! I *love* that magazineMe too me too.
Pam G.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Heather
Thank your for the links for the Life Learning Magazine and the Natural
child, both look great and I can't wait to check them out further. I'm
going to look fo the book by Alfie Kohn too...
Heather
child, both look great and I can't wait to check them out further. I'm
going to look fo the book by Alfie Kohn too...
Heather
----- Original Message -----
From: <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2003 11:57 PM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Digest Number 3335
~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email the
moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list owner,
Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address an
email to:
[email protected]
Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------
There are 25 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. RE: Praise
From: "Angela" <unschooling@...>
2. RE: Kids' Favorite books?
From: "Angela" <unschooling@...>
3. Re: Digest Number 3334
From: "Heather" <moonlightmama@...>
4. Re: Definition of unschooling, was; FLORIDA Intro
From: "coyote's corner" <jana@...>
5. Re: unschooling babies
From: "coyote's corner" <jana@...>
6. Re: Kids' Favorite books?
From: Shyrley <shyrley.williams@...>
7. Re: Kids' Favorite books?
From: Deborah Lewis <ddzimlew@...>
8. Re: Kids' Favorite books?
From: "24hrmom" <24hrmom@...>
9. Re: Praise
From: grlynbl@...
10. Re: Praise
From: grlynbl@...
11. Re: Kids' Favorite books?
From: "zenmomma2kids" <zenmomma@...>
12. Re: mary re prozac
From: "zenmomma2kids" <zenmomma@...>
13. Re: question about social help
From: "zenmomma2kids" <zenmomma@...>
14. Re: Kids' Favorite books?
From: "zenmomma2kids" <zenmomma@...>
15. words
From: starsuncloud@...
16. Re: Re: mary re prozac
From: Tim and Maureen <tmthomas@...>
17. Re: Re: question about social help
From: Tim and Maureen <tmthomas@...>
18. Re: Re: Kids' Favorite books?
From: CelticFrau@...
19. a part that was deleted....
From: "coyote's corner" <jana@...>
20. Re: Praise
From: "Kelli Traaseth" <tktraas@...>
21. Silent Running
From: Shyrley <shyrley.williams@...>
22. Re: Praise
From: "odrade7" <treegoddess@...>
23. Re: Re: Praise
From: genant2@...
24. Life Learning magazine
From: "Bronwen" <felesina@...>
25. Re: Life Learning magazine
From: "Kelli Traaseth" <tktraas@...>
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Message: 1
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 06:50:07 -0400
From: "Angela" <unschooling@...>
Subject: RE: Praise
Heather,
The book Punished By Rewards by Alfie Kohn addresses this issue. You
might want to read check it out.
Angela in Maine
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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Message: 2
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 08:59:12 -0400
From: "Angela" <unschooling@...>
Subject: RE: Kids' Favorite books?
kids are 6 and 8.
Favorites are The Anne of Green Gables Series by LM Montgomery and The
Series of Unfortunate Events series by Lemony Snicket.
Angela in Maine
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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Message: 3
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 08:54:54 -0400
From: "Heather" <moonlightmama@...>
Subject: Re: Digest Number 3334
Thank you for the feedback on the praise bit, most of what you have offered
I already do, so I guess I'm on the right path. However I do like some of
Sandra's suggestions about asking how she came to make/build/plan something,
to give her a chance to to explain and understand how she came to make it.
And it makes sense to give her feedback as if she were an adult, I'll have
to remember that!
Thanks,
Heather
----- Original Message -----
From: <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2003 6:24 AM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Digest Number 3334
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------------------------------------------------------------------------
There are 15 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Re: Praise
From: "kayb85" <sheran@...>
2. Re: Re: question about social help
From: Tim and Maureen <tmthomas@...>
3. Re: FLORIDA Intro
From: "joanna514" <Wilkinson6@...>
4. Re: FLORIDA Intro
From: "joanna514" <Wilkinson6@...>
5. Re: Re: kids and sensory needs
From: HaHaMommy@...
6. Re: Praise
From: "jmcseals SEALS" <jmcseals@...>
7. unschooling babies
From: starsuncloud@...
8. Re: Praise
From: "Mary" <mummy124@...>
9. Re: Praise
From: "Mary" <mummy124@...>
10. Re: unschooling babies
From: "jmcseals SEALS" <jmcseals@...>
11. Subject: Re: newbie here
From: Ann <anns@...>
12. words...was Subject: Bouncing list emails
From: Ann <anns@...>
13. Re: Praise
From: SandraDodd@...
14. RE: words...
From: "Sorcha" <sorcha-aisling@...>
15. Re: Definition of unschooling, ( preschool years)
From: grlynbl@...
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Message: 1
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 02:56:56 -0000
From: "kayb85" <sheran@...>
Subject: Re: Praise
When my little ones bring me something they made that they're very
pleased with, I make a fuss over them.
What I don't do is tell them that if they make their beds and brush
their teeth every day they get stickers or praise. They don't get
praised for things that I tell them to do in order for me to get them
to keep doing them, but they get encouraged when they do something on
their own that they're happy about.
I think that the thing you don't want to do with praise is try to get
them to do stuff by praising them. In other words, you don't want to
withhold kind, affirming, words that tell your child she's a
wonderful person until she does something that you consider
praiseworthy. You want to make sure she doesn't think she's worth
more as a person when she performs a certain way.
But when she says, "Look what I'm doing, Mom!", she's looking for you
to be excited with her. If my husband painted the windows while I
was out and I came home and he showed me, all excited about the work
he did, he would be a little disappointed if I didn't say, "Wow, you
did a really good job!"
Sheila
--- In [email protected], "Heather"
<moonlightmama@h...> wrote:
> Hi everyone,
> My daughter Kiele thrives on praise and I have heard two different
views about praise and how it affects children. The first view being
that it's good for their self esteem, it gives them pride in the work
that they have accomplished or with what ever they have done. The
second view is that a child who is always praised will only do things
to please adults rather than to please herself, to hear others talk
good about her. Kiele looks for praise constantly although I do see
the pride that she takes in her work whether it's building with
blocks or coloring a picture, however she looks for my approval to
see if I like what she has done. I know that this is normal for a 4
year old, but I was just wondering if giving her praise all the time
for everything that she does is good for her? If anyone has some
pointers on this I would appreciate it...
> Thanks
> Heather
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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Message: 2
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 19:59:26 -0700
From: Tim and Maureen <tmthomas@...>
Subject: Re: Re: question about social help
----- Original Message -----
From: zenmomma2kids
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, April 19, 2003 10:15 AM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: question about social help
>
He's also focused on making friendships through the activities that
he is good at (or at least enjoys), like computer gaming, D&D, etc.
Right now he is also finding that he can connect with older (16/17)
girls. He's got a couple of friends who are girls right now. He's
also always been better at connecting with adults than kids his own
age.
Thank you for your kind words. Funny how I couldn't think of focusing on
her strong points.Guess i was feeling a bit funky.Molly is still trying to
find what she is good at. She has a sister (the hypersensitive one)who is
mega quick and finds every activity easy and is noticed by others right away
for her immediate skill. Hard on Molly.Her sister does not rub this in at
all but molly notices it none the less. We have been focusing on accepting
herself for where she is at.
Has she always been unschooled? Does she have any school induced
stuff to get over?
Molly has been home now for 5 years and really unschooled for 2-3 years.
I'm not sure if she has stuff still to get over. I guess being put in
special reading and needing extra help always.
!
I like the idea of finding areas for her to use her body individually.
She so far loves rythmic gymnastics as there is no focus on others ability.
She has only been involved for about 1 month.She laughed with one girl over
a move they made and was very excited. This alone was social contact enough
for her. One girl is seeking her out .Molly is hesitant but we are working
on trying one visit and seeing how it goes. I am helping her with wording to
make the call.
>>
Help her find her strengths and don't focus too much attention on her
weaker points. Let her shine. That plus your support and love will
help her remain Whole.
Thank You again. I sometimes forget about this.
maureen
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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Message: 3
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 03:22:07 -0000
From: "joanna514" <Wilkinson6@...>
Subject: Re: FLORIDA Intro
> My in-laws are right near West Palm Beach in Lake Worth. We go down
> there, but not that often. Maybe once a year. I'll be sure to put
the
> word out next time we go. I love meeting other unschoolers!>>>
Cool! My parents live about 5 minutes from Lake Worth.
Also about 5 minutes from Dreher Park zoo. Dh and my dad took my
younger 2 to the zoo this past visit. I like to go there just to
climb the trees there in the park. I grew up climing trees like that.
>
> We have gone to the Dreher Park Zoo and Science Museum and
sometimes
> the Lion Country Safari. Our big find the last time we were down
was
> the Morikami Gardens. I'm not sure exactly where it was, but it was
> within 15 minutes of their house. It was this fabulous acreage of
zen
> gardens right in the middle of a bustling Florida avenue. Lots of
> information on the former Japanese settlers and gardens in general.
> Art work too. We loved it.
My Dad takes the grand kids to Lion Country Safari every Thankgiving.
The women go shopping that day. (We love Ross, TJ Max and Marshalls)
My mom has mentioned a garden that sounds like what you've
described. We'll have to check it out.
Let me know next time your heading down.
Joanna
>
> Life is good.
> ~Mary
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Message: 4
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 03:45:59 -0000
From: "joanna514" <Wilkinson6@...>
Subject: Re: FLORIDA Intro
--- In [email protected], "Maggy" <isaacray@b...>
wrote:
> I hear you and would love to get together! We are in West Palm
Beach, close to I-95 and Forest Hill Blvd. We will have to find a
place to meet, maybe Boca?
> Maggy
Hey!! My parents live right off of Forest Hill Blvd!
One block off the intercoastal, near S. Olive.
I grew up farther west, off Belvedere Rd., but they moved there about
5 years ago.
Hope to meet up with you in Nov.!
Joanna
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Message: 5
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 00:10:30 EDT
From: HaHaMommy@...
Subject: Re: Re: kids and sensory needs
In a message dated 4-18-2003 9:35:36 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
childe@... writes:
> >>I have a friend who tried "brushing" the skin of her kids before
> they took showers
I just wanted to throw in that this is also an incredible detox for your
system. Use long strokes that all lead toward your intestines. Try it on
yourself, it's AMAZING!
diana,
The wackiest widow westriver...
“I prefer to be true to myself, even at the hazard of incurring the ridicule
of others, rather than to be false, and to incur my own abhorrence.”
--Frederick Douglass
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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Message: 6
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 23:26:20 -0500
From: "jmcseals SEALS" <jmcseals@...>
Subject: Re: Praise
I think it often has to do with the type of praise being given. Truthful
praise, imho, can do no harm. I also think there is such a thing as
overdoing it, though. For example, pulling out the bells and whistles for
*every tiny little thing*. "WOW, you are the BEST child in the WHOLE ENTIRE
WORLD" is great here and there. We over did those type of statements with
our now 6 yr old and she went through quite a phase of letting EVERYONE know
just how incredibly wonderful she was at any opportunity. That tends to
turn people off, even their friends.
I take every opportunity to tell my children when they are doing something
right, nice, and so on. "Thanks for helping your sister with ________, that
was very nice of you." "I'm so proud of you for _____ all by yourself!"
Even using gentle parenting techniques, it is so easy to pay more attention
to the 'bad' things. I think the key is to *catch* our children being good
and doing well and honestly comment on those things. Offering unrealistic
praise *can* be detrimental to a child who *may* grow up thinking they can
do no wrong. There *may* also come a time, further down the road that they
become fearful of sharing important situations or times of bad judgment in
fear of what their parents might think of their *perfect* child.
I have a friend whose parents treated her as if she were THE best child on
earth. She became pregnant at 14 and went to her choir teacher at school to
confide because she was so terrified of letting her parents down. She truly
believed that they thought she was perfect.
I'm not trying to say this extreme situation is normal or even probable in
every circumstance. I just think we owe it to our children to be honest
with them and let them know that we ARE proud of them for their
accomplishments and will offer honest praise accordingly, but that they are
also allowed to make mistakes and that we will help them resolve their
mistakes and still love them regardless.
My 12 yr old made a rather large mistake recently and I calmly explained why
I was upset. A couple of days later, she wrote me a letter, apologizing,
suggesting a consequence very appropriate to the situation and offered an
appropriate solution. All on her own! When I told her how proud of her I
was and how impressed I was and kept going, she finally stopped me and said,
"Goolleeee Mom, you don't have to over do it or I might do it again!" Of
course, she was laughing but it was a wise lesson. I LOVE learning things
FROM my children! :)
Jennifer
Jennifer
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Message: 7
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 00:31:33 EDT
From: starsuncloud@...
Subject: unschooling babies
In a message dated 4/19/03 9:54:01 PM Central Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:
<<
Weird. What good does it do for a baby to identify birds? What good would
it do a child in New Mexico to identify a cardinal, unless just for fun?
>>
It sounds like the program that guy started (you know the "teach your baby
to
read" guy) called "teach your baby encyclopedic knowledge" or something like
that.
I looked into it many years ago (silly me) and couldn't believe the
flashcards and memorization stuff they were pushing on little babies!! It
was
ridiculous.
All so the kid could recognize different birds, names of things and
definitions.
It's all about the parents, not the child.
They feel oh-so-good when little Johnny can show off his incredible
knowledge.
Only problem is, if you can look it up in an encyclopedia, why does the kid
need to memorize it at all? How silly.
Sick people.
Ren
"The sun is shining--the sun is shining. That is the magic. The flowers
are
growing--the roots are stirring. That is the magic. Being alive is the
magic--being strong is the magic The magic is in me--the magic is in
me....It's in every one of us."
----Frances Hodgson Burnett
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Message: 8
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 00:37:56 -0400
From: "Mary" <mummy124@...>
Subject: Re: Praise
From: "Heather" <moonlightmama@...>
<<My daughter Kiele thrives on praise and I have heard two different views
about praise and how it affects children. The first view being that it's
good for their self esteem, it gives them pride in the work that they have
accomplished or with what ever they have done. The second view is that a
child who is always praised will only do things to please adults rather than
to please herself, to hear others talk good about her. Kiele looks for
praise constantly although I do see the pride that she takes in her work
whether it's building with blocks or coloring a picture, however she looks
for my approval to see if I like what she has done. I know that this is
normal for a 4 year old, but I was just wondering if giving her praise all
the time for everything that she does is good for her? If anyone has some
pointers on this I would appreciate it...>>
Of course when a child does something they are excited about, they want to
share and get a response back. One that will make them feel good. I also see
the point of how praising just everything isn't good either. I watch what I
say and how I say it. I make sure to comment on how much work it looks like
went into that picture they just did or how I love the way they used color.
Something else beside just "oh isn't that lovely, it's beautiful." Making
sure I praise the effort instead of just the picture. I think that makes a
big difference. Not just the result but the process to get there. I think
that helps so much with their self esteem and not always concentrating on
whether the end result will be to anyone else's satisfaction. I do this with
all comments, or I should say I try on most. Even with something like
cleaning up the playroom without me asking. Instead of just saying great
job, I will comment on how nice it was to do that because they know it makes
me feel good and how much time it took them and how organized everything
looks. Hope this helps some.
Mary B
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Message: 9
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 00:40:11 -0400
From: "Mary" <mummy124@...>
Subject: Re: Praise
I also wanted to add to my last post that if it's something my child did
creatively, like a picture or making up a game, I always ask them how they
feel about what they did. Sometimes they are unhappy with it and just asking
to see what someone else thinks. If that's the case, I can hear why they
aren't satisfied and help them figure out a better way or point out other
good things they may have not seen.
Mary B
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Message: 10
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 23:59:01 -0500
From: "jmcseals SEALS" <jmcseals@...>
Subject: Re: unschooling babies
Yes, all I could think of was "Keeping up with the Joneses". Quite sad.
Some of the things people put these poor children through is just insane!
Don't you just know those poor babies are sitting there wondering how to
roll their eyes in the back of their little heads! >BG<
I saw a similar program called 'teach your baby math' or something to that
effect. They have these flash cards almost a foot square with different
patterns of red dots and the baby is supposedly supposed to learn how to do
the four math facts by looking at random dot pictures. Looks like a head
start to blindness to me! I always wonder if those kids were the ones who
started those pictures you have to stare past to actually see the form
through all the muck. Ah well, I'm rambling again...
Jennifer
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Message: 11
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 01:06:30 -0400
From: Ann <anns@...>
Subject: Subject: Re: newbie here
Sandra, When I tell my daughter she's "stuck with me" it's in the
context of we, her family, will not abandon her. No matter what. She's
come up with some rather interesting "Even if..." questions, and
sometimes that becomes a game, but it's also very very serious. With
her recent query into belief systems (swim team locker room discussions
with a "fundy" teammate has triggered a rash of conversations!) plus our
current health issues (my cancer recurrence/current chemo & DH's
upcoming major surgery), the "stuck with me" has expanded into
discussing what will/may happen after death does separate us. <sigh>
We've had some really amazing talks. Yes, including running, suicide,
murder, going to jail, heaven/hell/reincarnation/etc, how would I
feel/what would I do if she died, she'd like to live with Aunt P but
Aunt P's even older and what if she dies, wills & inheritance, oh my, on
and on. Addressing a lot of things, curiosity, security, laws, her
sib's trials growing up (one legal name change at 18) and my own (my
father died when I was 4), what it takes (& means) to earn a living...
Ann
<< He tested us unbelievably,...my husband (ex-marine) finally looked
him straight in his eyes, after a major
meltdown on son's part, and said, "get it all out, give us all you've
got, but you're not going anywhere. You're stuck with us." >>
I missed the original of this, but wanted to point out just on principle
that
kids are NOT stuck. They can run or they can kill themselves. I've
known
kids who've done both. Trapping and holding them too hard isn't
guaranteed
to raise them to adulthood.
Sandra
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Message: 12
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 01:18:28 -0400
From: Ann <anns@...>
Subject: words...was Subject: Bouncing list emails
And then there are those "massive fires" so frequently in the news.
And the huge sign (up year-round) near here: Christmas Tree's.
And our people in our family tends to respond to requests to "Please
move" by wiggling.
Do any of you wear out dictionaries? We do.
Ann
>>"literally tons"? "Tons" is a weight, not a volume. "Literally" should
not be
there if the "tons" is referring to volume (which it is)! :-)
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Message: 13
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 01:22:49 EDT
From: SandraDodd@...
Subject: Re: Praise
Too much gushing can cause the child to start not to really trust your
judgment, and so too much praise can prevent you from being able to honestly
praise them in the future.
When kids were little and would show me something I try to think what I
would
do if it were an adult who was showing me some project or hobby of theirs.
I
could converse with them about it, ask them questions to draw them out to
tell me more about how they did it, and what the characters are doing, or
where they got the idea, or something that creates more understanding and
appreciation for me, and gives them a chance to explain more about what they
made/built/wrote/planned.
Today some friends came over who hadn't been over for a few months, and
Keith
was showing them his yard project. Then we ended up in the garage to get a
tool, and they saw his current wood carving. Thinking back on those
conversations, as candid examples of honest interaction involving praise,
they didn't gush, they didn't use "the poodle voice," and they didn't say
anything like "I'm so proud of you" or "This is WONderful." They asked
questions about what kind of gate he was going to use, what kind of tree one
tree was, and about the wood, they talked about poplar wood and carving
patterns and what he could do to make his knotwork horse look less
dragonlike. He told them about the bed he's making. We talked about
medieval tents (we've discovered a new Viking tent design).
There were no kids around. Keith was getting some very positive feedback,
but they were also drawing him out to teach them more about what he was
doing.
Holly was doing some painting last week, and using nail polish for some of
her paint. We talked about textures and whether other paints and markers
could go with it or whether they chemically clashed.
I ask sometimes if she wants me to keep something for her, or if she wants
to
put it up. Sometimes it's yes, and sometimes no.
I've seen some parents say "I LOVE this and I want to put it on the wall"
when the kid might not be finished with it, or might have just wanted
someone
to say "I like the way you wrote your name on that picture."
As kids get older, one thing they're learning from us is how to act with
others, and so if we treat them like other people instead of like kids, we
model respect and interest instead of just praise.
When my husband shows me something he's making (or I show him something new,
like a webpage or a sewing project) we can TELL how the other person feels
about it, so saying "How do you feel about this?" seems to impersonal for
people who live together and can read each other already. If a kid brings a
picture she doesn't like, wouldn't the mom know?
One way I found to keep from just making mom-noises was to remember not to
say "This is good." I don't KNOW something is "good," and it makes better
sense (and better communication, and conversation) for me to say "I really
like this" ("I" messages) or "How pretty, especially the trees."
Sandra
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Message: 14
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 02:08:30 -0400
From: "Sorcha" <sorcha-aisling@...>
Subject: RE: words...
My pet peeve is the "ten items or less" aisles.
Sorcha
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Message: 15
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 20:41:43 EDT
From: grlynbl@...
Subject: Re: Definition of unschooling, ( preschool years)
In a message dated 4/19/03 8:13:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
heidi@...
writes:
> I'd have to say, as opposed enrolling the kid in my next door neighbor's
> licensed-for-12-we-do-activities-at-10am and
> 3pm-and-structure-everything-else-too day care. She's practically got a
> preschool running over there, complete with 'everyone sit down and glue
the
>
> pom-poms on the xerox'd picture of a rabbit for easter' and "everyone sing
> the alphabet song!"
>
Anna ( my 13 yo dd) and I were just talking about preschool and daycare the
other day. I used to work in a preschool, and it was just like you
describe.
I loved being around the kids, but I HATED the "make out your lesson plan"
demands from the director ( who was really just operating under the command
of the preschool Board of Directors) Anna and I talked about how totally
ludicrous it was to try to mold those little kids to such a structured day.
We talked about ways to nurture and "take care" of 10 2 yos at one time.
How to handle "nap/quiet" time for kids who need and want to sleep and kids
who don't, meal times, outside time.. all the standard daycare routines.
Anna had solutions and ideas that were so wise and sensitive to children.
I
said, "Anna, you are so wise, you must have lived 3 lives" .. :-)
I know that some parents have to work. They have to put thier children in
daycare. Everything I have learned about children in my own experiences,
coupled with my recent embracing of unschooling, has confirmed to me that
the
Montessori method of preschool/daycare is the best alternative IF a parent
has to put thier child in an out of the home child care situation. My neice
and nephew go to a public Montessori school and they absolutely love it. If
they didnt go there, my sister would most likely homeschool.
As we discussed Montessori methods, Anna said that she wants to have a
Montessori preschool, and maybe even a Montessori "grade" school, when she
grows up. I am going to call our local Montessori school next week and see
if she can volunteer. She is VERY excited!
Teresa
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Message: 4
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 09:02:22 -0400
From: "coyote's corner" <jana@...>
Subject: Re: Definition of unschooling, was; FLORIDA Intro
Good Morning,
I find that in some areas of Providence, this mentality applies.. When I was
first awarded placement of Brianna, I searched for day care. (I was
finishing a degree program and working.) The competition for some of the
'pre-school enrichment & learning centers' was fierce!!
The state was helping me pay for this, so I thought that with the state
money and what I could afford, Brianna would be in a great day care program.
My college courses were 4 days per week. 9AM-11:45AM. I found a day care
that was seemingly okay. They concentrated on organized activities. They
promised "learning adventures" This day care was one of the most desired in
the area!
I would drop her off at around 8:20 AM and usually I was there by noon. I
must say that the day care required payment for a full day (7AM-5:30PM).
One day, due to a major traffic problem, I arrived there at approx 12:45 PM.
I had called the office and explained the traffic situation. The office
person put me on hold. The director came on and asked me when I would be
there. I honestly couldn't give an answer. I was in traffic, it was beyond
my control. She informed me that our agreement was that I pick Brianna up
around noon. I pointed out that the center was getting paid for full time
day care and had been, in fact, providing part time day care, I also said
that this was very unusual for me to be late and that I really didn't see
the problem.
When I arrived, Brianna was sitting out by the double locked doors - by
herself- with her little school bag and jacket. She was frightened. Just a
few feet away - in her classroom, the kids were playing.
When the secretary came to open the door for me, I was pissed! I wanted to
speak to the administrator, but was told she was busy. I could see the
office, the woman was eating a salad & reading Cosmo.
I picked Brianna up and walked into the administrators office. I fired them.
Not only did I pull Brianna out, I put a stop payment on the check and had
this daycare stricken from the state rolls so the state wouldn't pay for
them anymore.
Looking back, this action of theirs was part & parcel of training the kids.
The administrator told me that Brianna needed to be disciplined, trained -
that she was spoiled. (At this time, Brianna had seen goddess knows what
while in custody of her bio-mom who was an iv drug user.) Brianna was &
remains a rather quiet kid. Back then, she was very quiet. kids used to take
her snacks, her toys and she would say & do nothing. I couldn't understand
what this cosmos reading woman was talking about!!
For the rest of the semester, Brianna went into another day care that was so
much better, however, it was serendipitous that I got her in there!! It was
also over $100.00 per week more!! (thank goddess for the state help!)
For a long time after the experience w/ the first day care, Brianna was very
wary of doing ANYTHING!!! w/o asking! She would get visibly upset over
"being wrong" in writing, etc.
all in all - it was terrible for Brianna.
Janis
----- Original Message -----
From: Heidi Wordhouse-Dykema
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, April 19, 2003 8:01 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Definition of unschooling, was; FLORIDA
Intro
>When someone with a one year old says "unschooling" the question is "as
>opposed to what?"
I'd have to say, as opposed enrolling the kid in my next door neighbor's
licensed-for-12-we-do-activities-at-10am and
3pm-and-structure-everything-else-too day care. She's practically got a
preschool running over there, complete with 'everyone sit down and glue
the
pom-poms on the xerox'd picture of a rabbit for easter' and "everyone sing
the alphabet song!"
Kids start their 'schooling' around here WAY before they hit
kindergarten. Back in the days when I was doing day care (10 years ago
now), parents had me driving their kids to 'enrichment' courses so they
wouldn't be behind when they got to kindergarten. It was a serious
concern
of theirs, no matter what I thought of it. (I ran a very non-academic,
muddy, messy, yummy child care. How are they going to learn their ABC's
from that?)
In my opinion, unschooling can start from year one, if they've made the
conscious decision to not push their child in a schoolish way during their
'preschool career' or to prep for kindergarten.
The whole parenting/education competition gets pretty crazy in this neck
of
the woods sometimes.
HeidiWD
"You can no more win a war than you can win an earthquake." -Jeannette
Rankin
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Message: 5
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 09:31:52 -0400
From: "coyote's corner" <jana@...>
Subject: Re: unschooling babies
I wonder if someone isn't sitting around - laughing all the way to the bank!
I recall an old joke;
What does Pokemom translate in to?
Americans will buy anything.
Janis
----- Original Message -----
From: jmcseals SEALS
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2003 12:59 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] unschooling babies
Yes, all I could think of was "Keeping up with the Joneses". Quite sad.
Some of the things people put these poor children through is just insane!
Don't you just know those poor babies are sitting there wondering how to
roll their eyes in the back of their little heads! >BG<
I saw a similar program called 'teach your baby math' or something to that
effect. They have these flash cards almost a foot square with different
patterns of red dots and the baby is supposedly supposed to learn how to
do
the four math facts by looking at random dot pictures. Looks like a head
start to blindness to me! I always wonder if those kids were the ones who
started those pictures you have to stare past to actually see the form
through all the muck. Ah well, I'm rambling again...
Jennifer
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Message: 6
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 11:35:45 -0400
From: Shyrley <shyrley.williams@...>
Subject: Re: Kids' Favorite books?
"Have a Nice Day!" wrote:
> Can you guys give me a list of your kids' favorite books.
>
> My kids are 14, 11, and 7.
>
> So far, I've heard Calvin and Hobbes. Any others?
>
> Kristen
well, the books lying round the floor open today are
Garfield
Artemis Fowl
Various Roald Dahl books
Harry Potter
Marvel Super-Heroes comic books
Dragon Lance books
My brood are 10, 9 and 7
Shyrley
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Message: 7
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 08:27:32 -0600
From: Deborah Lewis <ddzimlew@...>
Subject: Re: Kids' Favorite books?
Dylan at seven liked anything Thornton Burgess. He still likes those and
we sometimes read them at breakfast. Dylan will be eleven next month.
He likes Ray Bradbury, "The Illustrated Man" "Something Wicked This way
Comes", "The Martian Chronicles" and others.
He's liking H.P. Lovecraft lately, the old science fiction and horror
stories.
He likes Peanuts.
He likes the magazine Muse and National Geographic.
Deb L
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Message: 8
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 11:35:03 -0700
From: "24hrmom" <24hrmom@...>
Subject: Re: Kids' Favorite books?
For the last year it's been the Harry Potter series. Last night I started
reading them the fourth book for the fourth time. We have June 21st on our
calendar!
The only other books they have been interested in me reading to them this
past year are from the Edward Eager series. Half Magic, Knight's Castle,
The Time Garden etc.
My eldest has been very interested in mythology the last few months so he
has been reading various books on this subject. He also can't wait for his
Nintendo Power magazine to show up each month, and is often be seen with his
nose in a player's guide!
For my youngest when we're reading alone it's anything Scooby-Doo. :)
I picked up the Chronicles of Narnia book series and though nobody has been
interested in hearing me read them, they really enjoyed the Lion, the Witch,
and the Wardrobe video (a BBC production) I found at the library. They
liked it so much I picked up the DVDs a few weeks ago that has the BBC
productions of 4 of the 7 books (3 DVDs). The older two loved it and sat
through the last 3 in a row, about 6-7 hours I think it was, including
popcorn breaks ;)
My kids are 11, 9, and 5.
Pam L.
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Message: 9
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 12:03:48 EDT
From: grlynbl@...
Subject: Re: Praise
In a message dated 4/20/03 12:27:29 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
jmcseals@... writes:
> Truthful
> praise, imho, can do no harm.
I think this is very important.. the "truthful" part. Of course, you don't
want to criticize a childs efforts by saying.. UHHG, that is awful, that is
so ugly, that is worthless.. BUT, I have also read ( and heard) that if you
constantly tell a child thier efforts are WONDERFUL, GREAT, THE BEST!, and
they know in thier hearts its really lousy, then that breaks down thier
trust
in you. A good way to approach this and open up the lines of
communication
is to ask the child what they think about the "thing", or how they feel
about
it. For example, a child paints a picture and brings it to you, all
excited.. LOOK Mommy, LOOK! at my picture.. isn't it pretty? OH, let me
see,
yes, I think it is pretty, what do you think? Do you like it? Maybe say,
my favorite part is the "X", what do you like best about it? Then you can
talk about the picture, maybe the kid will say, I love the "X" but, I think
the "Y" look stupid.. Ask why they think the Y looks stupid, how could
they
fix it.. etc etc.
Another good way to encourage children without "labeling" them is to
praise them with a variety of adjectives. Instead of always saying.. "good,
great, wonderful, smart", use more direct and descriptive words .. For
instance, instead of saying. "oh that is a great picture".. say.. Oh, you
are
so creative and expressive with your paints". Instead of saying, "you are
so smart for figuring that out", say, "that took some real logic and
calcuation to solve" Say a child picks up all of thier toys and tidys a
room
up without being asked to help. Instead of saying, oh, what a good boy,
thank you so much.. Say, Thank you, you are so considerate and helpful.
You
are an excellent organizer.
I have always tried to express to my children what wonderful qualities they
have without lumping them all under "good or smart" categories. I think
it
strengthens thier sense of self and uniqueness and boosts their self esteem.
Teresa
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Message: 10
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 12:05:42 EDT
From: grlynbl@...
Subject: Re: Praise
In a message dated 4/20/03 12:42:57 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
mummy124@... writes:
> I also wanted to add to my last post that if it's something my child did
> creatively, like a picture or making up a game, I always ask them how they
> feel about what they did.
Well, I just basically said the same thing that Mary did.. LOL.. I guess I
should have read all the responses before I made mine.. I could have just
said.> DITTO to Mary :-)
.. Well, I can say.. "Great minds think alike"
Teresa
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Message: 11
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 17:33:06 -0000
From: "zenmomma2kids" <zenmomma@...>
Subject: Re: Kids' Favorite books?
>> Can you guys give me a list of your kids' favorite books.
>
> My kids are 14, 11, and 7.
>
> So far, I've heard Calvin and Hobbes. Any others?>>
Oh sure. :o) There are lots. Here are some I can think of off the top
of my head.
A Series of Unfortunate Events series by Lemony Snicket
Harry Potter series by JK Rowling
The Witches by Roald Dahl (others by him too)
Holes by Louis Sachar
Wayside School series by Louis Sachar
Jeremy Thatcher, Dragon hatcher by Bruce Coville (others by him too)
The House With The The Clock in its Walls by ?
Watership Down by Richard Adams
The Secret Garden by Francis Hodgsen Burnett (could be wrong on the
author)
The Hobbit, Lord of the Rings Trilogy by JKK Tolkien
The Dark is Rising series
Skellig
The Golden Compass, His Dark Materials series by Philip Pullman
There's more, but my brain is tired. My kids are 9 and 14. Happy
reading!
Life is good.
~Mary
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Message: 12
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 17:47:43 -0000
From: "zenmomma2kids" <zenmomma@...>
Subject: Re: mary re prozac
>>We never had the learning problems other than high distraction and
the classroom sounded like a loud echoing place always for her. She
would come home from school and cry for 1-2 hours just screaming and
biting and hitting.I was always told I was to soft and needed to be
firmer etc...>>
People have all sorts of advice, don't they. :-P~~~~~ Conor once told
me that the classroom felt like a war going on, only no one would
come help him. <ouch> Glad I rescued him when I did even though I
wish he had never gone at all. How long was your daughter in school?
How long has she been out?
>> I have never heard of sensory integration.>>
Look for the book The Out of Sync Child by Carol Kranowitz. It gives
a great explanation and overview of the whole topic.
>> One thing about this personality was it sure made me explore
parenting,my own issues, marriage and listening to each individual.>>
I definitely feel blessed by each my kid's "quirks." They have
brought me to a place I may never have found otherwise.
Life is good.
~Mary
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Message: 13
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 18:08:35 -0000
From: "zenmomma2kids" <zenmomma@...>
Subject: Re: question about social help
>>Thank you for your kind words. Funny how I couldn't think of
focusing on her strong points.Guess i was feeling a bit funky.>>
It happens. :o) It can happen to them even more. That's why it's so
important for us to remind them and help them and encourage them
towards what *is* working for them. And every child has those
qualities that make them shine. Schools only appreciate one or two
qualities in a "good" student. We have the ability to open up the
whole world of possibilities for our kids to shine in their own
unique way.
>>Molly is still trying to find what she is good at. She has a sister
(the hypersensitive one)who is mega quick and finds every activity
easy and is noticed by others right away for her immediate skill.>>
Sounds a lot like my two kids.
>>Hard on Molly.Her sister does not rub this in at all but molly
notices it none the less. We have been focusing on accepting herself
for where she is at.>>
And where she is, is exactly where she needs to be right now. She has
amazing gifts and her gifts will be unlike her sister's or anyone
else's. It's not just a matter of accepting herself as less than
someone else (not saying that's what you're encouraging BTW), but
understanding that there are other qualities that are *her*
strengths. Qualities she can bring to the world unlike any other's.
>>Molly has been home now for 5 years and really unschooled for 2-3
years. I'm not sure if she has stuff still to get over. I guess being
put in special reading and needing extra help always.>>
I think that can definitely give a kid the feeling of being "less
than." The more places she has to shine, the more successes she has
NOW, the less that old school stuff will matter.
>>I like the idea of finding areas for her to use her body
individually. She so far loves rythmic gymnastics as there is no
focus on others ability. She has only been involved for about 1
month.She laughed with one girl over a move they made and was very
excited. This alone was social contact enough for her.>>
Great!
>>One girl is seeking her out .Molly is hesitant but we are working
on trying one visit and seeing how it goes. I am helping her with
wording to make the call.>>
I still make the phone calls for both of my kids when they ask or
need me to. Sometimes that's needed to get the ball rolling.
Good luck!
Life is good.
~Mary
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Message: 14
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 18:32:41 -0000
From: "zenmomma2kids" <zenmomma@...>
Subject: Re: Kids' Favorite books?
>> There's more, but my brain is tired. My kids are 9 and 14. Happy
> reading!>>
Oh and anything from anime. Conor has a few favorite series of
Japanese manga that he likes. Ranma 1/2 is a favorite as is Osagi
Yojimbo. Casey just LOVED the books from the Spirited Away movie.
> Life is good.
> ~Mary
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Message: 15
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 15:19:32 EDT
From: starsuncloud@...
Subject: words
In a message dated 4/20/03 5:25:09 AM Central Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:
<< Do any of you wear out dictionaries? We do. >>
Oh YES!! Ours has the back binding flapping around right now, it looks very
well loved.
Ren
"The sun is shining--the sun is shining. That is the magic. The flowers
are
growing--the roots are stirring. That is the magic. Being alive is the
magic--being strong is the magic The magic is in me--the magic is in
me....It's in every one of us."
----Frances Hodgson Burnett
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Message: 16
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 13:38:16 -0700
From: Tim and Maureen <tmthomas@...>
Subject: Re: Re: mary re prozac
----- Original Message -----
From: zenmomma2kids
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2003 10:47 AM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: mary re prozac
>>
How long was your daughter in school?
How long has she been out?
She was in kindergarten,then I curriculum homeschooled her for grade 1.
Lots of damage done there for her and I.Then in grade 2-41/2 in montessori.
She has been out for 5 years.
Look for the book The Out of Sync Child by Carol Kranowitz. It gives
a great explanation and overview of the whole topic.
Thanks, I will.
I definitely feel blessed by each my kid's "quirks." They have
brought me to a place I may never have found otherwise.
Isn't that the truth. Can't imagine life without this journey. I was very
compliant and mainstream until I had kids.
I actually consider myself lucky that they found me to guide me in my
journey or maybe we found each other.
Maureen
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Message: 17
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 13:40:46 -0700
From: Tim and Maureen <tmthomas@...>
Subject: Re: Re: question about social help
Mary
thanks for your support!! Appreciated more than you know. This road has been
really hard some days.
----- Original Message -----
From: zenmomma2kids
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2003 11:08 AM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: question about social help
>>Thank you for your kind words. Funny how I couldn't think of
focusing on her strong points.Guess i was feeling a bit funky.>>
It happens. :o) It can happen to them even more. That's why it's so
important for us to remind them and help them and encourage them
towards what *is* working for them. And every child has those
qualities that make them shine. Schools only appreciate one or two
qualities in a "good" student. We have the ability to open up the
whole world of possibilities for our kids to shine in their own
unique way.
>>Molly is still trying to find what she is good at. She has a sister
(the hypersensitive one)who is mega quick and finds every activity
easy and is noticed by others right away for her immediate skill.>>
Sounds a lot like my two kids.
>>Hard on Molly.Her sister does not rub this in at all but molly
notices it none the less. We have been focusing on accepting herself
for where she is at.>>
And where she is, is exactly where she needs to be right now. She has
amazing gifts and her gifts will be unlike her sister's or anyone
else's. It's not just a matter of accepting herself as less than
someone else (not saying that's what you're encouraging BTW), but
understanding that there are other qualities that are *her*
strengths. Qualities she can bring to the world unlike any other's.
>>Molly has been home now for 5 years and really unschooled for 2-3
years. I'm not sure if she has stuff still to get over. I guess being
put in special reading and needing extra help always.>>
I think that can definitely give a kid the feeling of being "less
than." The more places she has to shine, the more successes she has
NOW, the less that old school stuff will matter.
>>I like the idea of finding areas for her to use her body
individually. She so far loves rythmic gymnastics as there is no
focus on others ability. She has only been involved for about 1
month.She laughed with one girl over a move they made and was very
excited. This alone was social contact enough for her.>>
Great!
>>One girl is seeking her out .Molly is hesitant but we are working
on trying one visit and seeing how it goes. I am helping her with
wording to make the call.>>
I still make the phone calls for both of my kids when they ask or
need me to. Sometimes that's needed to get the ball rolling.
Good luck!
Life is good.
~Mary
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Message: 18
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 16:42:11 EDT
From: CelticFrau@...
Subject: Re: Re: Kids' Favorite books?
In a message dated 4/20/2003 1:39:38 PM Eastern Standard Time,
zenmomma@... writes:
> >> Can you guys give me a list of your kids' favorite books.
> >
> > My kids are 14, 11, and 7.
> >
> > So far, I've heard Calvin and Hobbes. Any others?>>
>
>
I haven't heard the Redwall series mentioned. My kids love them.
Nancy B
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Message: 19
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 19:05:46 -0400
From: "coyote's corner" <jana@...>
Subject: a part that was deleted....
I just re-read a long post I sent regarding Brianna & day care. What was
somehow cut off was the paragraph explaining that the reason Brianna was put
outside of her classroom was because of the schedule, the routine.
It was a discipline mindset kind of thing.
Thanks friends, for being here, being cool......
Janis
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Message: 20
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 20:49:54 -0500
From: "Kelli Traaseth" <tktraas@...>
Subject: Re: Praise
Heather,
I don't know if you're familiar with Life Learning Magazine? In the last
few months they have run a series of articles on praising your child. I
think they've been very interesting and helpful. They are on the same tone
as Punished by Rewards, that someone else suggested. This author is Naomi
Aldort. It says also that your can read her articles at
www.naturalchild.org and other sites.
Kelli
----- Original Message -----
From: Heather
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, April 19, 2003 9:43 PM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Praise
Hi everyone,
My daughter Kiele thrives on praise and I have heard two different views
about praise and how it affects children. The first view being that it's
good for their self esteem, it gives them pride in the work that they have
accomplished or with what ever they have done. The second view is that a
child who is always praised will only do things to please adults rather than
to please herself, to hear others talk good about her. Kiele looks for
praise constantly although I do see the pride that she takes in her work
whether it's building with blocks or coloring a picture, however she looks
for my approval to see if I like what she has done. I know that this is
normal for a 4 year old, but I was just wondering if giving her praise all
the time for everything that she does is good for her? If anyone has some
pointers on this I would appreciate it...
Thanks
Heather
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Message: 21
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 23:16:00 -0400
From: Shyrley <shyrley.williams@...>
Subject: Silent Running
We just watched the movie Silent Running. It's so sad. My two boys have been
deeply affected :-(
That man could have left Huey to keep Duey company even if he was a bit
broken :-(
Shyrley with tissues
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Message: 22
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 02:40:32 -0000
From: "odrade7" <treegoddess@...>
Subject: Re: Praise
--- In [email protected], "Kelli Traaseth"
<tktraas@p...> wrote:
[I don't know if you're familiar with Life Learning Magazine?]
Ooooh! I *love* that magazine! I just got the new issue and can't
wait to read it. If you haven't seen it check it out at
http://www.lifelearningmagazine.com (and no, I'm not affiliated with
them;)
TreeGoddess
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Message: 23
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 23:23:15 EDT
From: genant2@...
Subject: Re: Re: Praise
In a message dated 4/20/03 10:41:30 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
treegoddess@... writes:
> Ooooh! I *love* that magazine
Me too me too.
Pam G.
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Message: 24
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 20:39:28 -0700
From: "Bronwen" <felesina@...>
Subject: Life Learning magazine
I got sent a sample copy and found it too "schooly" for me-( I really wanted
to like it too, because of GWS withdrawls).
Is that not the case? maybe it was a "bad" issue I read?
Bronwen
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Message: 25
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 22:57:01 -0500
From: "Kelli Traaseth" <tktraas@...>
Subject: Re: Life Learning magazine
I have found it quite unschoolish. They refer to unschooling quite a bit
and self-directed learning. I've thoroughly enjoyed reading the articles.
**I got sent a sample copy**
I don't know, was this a while ago? I've had my subscription for about
a year now. They have had quite a few articles written by unschooled
young adults; which I have really enjoyed reading. Last issue also had an
article by David Albert in it.
Kelli
----- Original Message -----
From: Bronwen
To: Unschoo<br/><br/>(Message over 64 KB, truncated)
Heather Woodward
Thanks Kelli -
I did some reading at naturalchild.org. I especially liked the Maxims about childhood behavior.
Some Maxims About Childhood Behavior
a.. Children aren't adults, so don't expect them to behave as though they were.
b.. Children learn by doing, so don't expect to approve of everything they do.
c.. It is a rare child whose behavior equals his parents' expectations.
d.. Children are more likely to do as you do than to do as you say.
e.. It is often less important for parents to control their children's behavior than it is for them to control their own.
f.. Children react to anger; they respond to love and affection.
I printed them out and they serve to remind me ;-)
Heather
I did some reading at naturalchild.org. I especially liked the Maxims about childhood behavior.
Some Maxims About Childhood Behavior
a.. Children aren't adults, so don't expect them to behave as though they were.
b.. Children learn by doing, so don't expect to approve of everything they do.
c.. It is a rare child whose behavior equals his parents' expectations.
d.. Children are more likely to do as you do than to do as you say.
e.. It is often less important for parents to control their children's behavior than it is for them to control their own.
f.. Children react to anger; they respond to love and affection.
I printed them out and they serve to remind me ;-)
Heather
----- Original Message -----
From: Kelli Traaseth
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2003 9:49 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Praise
Heather,
I don't know if you're familiar with Life Learning Magazine? In the last few months they have run a series of articles on praising your child. I think they've been very interesting and helpful. They are on the same tone as Punished by Rewards, that someone else suggested. This author is Naomi Aldort. It says also that your can read her articles at www.naturalchild.org and other sites.
Kelli
----- Original Message -----
From: Heather
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, April 19, 2003 9:43 PM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Praise
Hi everyone,
My daughter Kiele thrives on praise and I have heard two different views about praise and how it affects children. The first view being that it's good for their self esteem, it gives them pride in the work that they have accomplished or with what ever they have done. The second view is that a child who is always praised will only do things to please adults rather than to please herself, to hear others talk good about her. Kiele looks for praise constantly although I do see the pride that she takes in her work whether it's building with blocks or coloring a picture, however she looks for my approval to see if I like what she has done. I know that this is normal for a 4 year old, but I was just wondering if giving her praise all the time for everything that she does is good for her? If anyone has some pointers on this I would appreciate it...
Thanks
Heather
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