RE: Scientology and unschooling
[email protected]
>Sometimes. There's a difference between just taking a stranger's word forAnd you have every right in the world to do just that. But I'd hate to think
>something and having high regard for the opinion of someone who has earned
>your trust.
of something wonderful -- anything at all -- you may miss if the person you
trust so much just may be wrong about something. And even if they aren't,
you'll still miss the opportunity to really know it for yourself.
When my daughter, or ANYONE asks my opinion about something, I give it. But
I'll also tell them they should check it out for themselves as well. Nothing
educates like real experience and observation. Of course, you have to fit
the ability of the person with the subject, like I won't tell my daughter an
iron is hot and then say, "Go ahead and touch it and see for yourself." LOL!
But I may throw a few drops of water on it so she can see it hiss. It's
better than just saying, "It's hot and will hurt you, so get as far away as
you can!" All that does is blunt someone's ability to learn.
JenW
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/13/03 7:19:21 PM, JennWeed1@... writes:
<< When my daughter, or ANYONE asks my opinion about something, I give it.
But
I'll also tell them they should check it out for themselves as well. >>
This sounds really good and soothing, but it also sounds like rhetoric to win
this argument or to shush the opposition.
I doubt you tell your daughter or your friend to try lending money to someone
you KNOW hasn't paid you or others back. I doubt you told her what you
thought about drugs, and then said, "But you should use drugs yourself to
see."
<<And you have every right in the world to do just that. But I'd hate to
think
of something wonderful -- anything at all -- you may miss if the person you
trust so much just may be wrong about something. And even if they aren't,
you'll still miss the opportunity to really know it for yourself.>>
There's no one I trust enough to give them control of my life.
There are people I trust more than others.
And it's neither worth it nor possible to try everything in the whole world
and so people do tend to be discriminating with the time and resources they
have.
Aren't trust and credibility of any value?
I think they are.
Sandra
<< When my daughter, or ANYONE asks my opinion about something, I give it.
But
I'll also tell them they should check it out for themselves as well. >>
This sounds really good and soothing, but it also sounds like rhetoric to win
this argument or to shush the opposition.
I doubt you tell your daughter or your friend to try lending money to someone
you KNOW hasn't paid you or others back. I doubt you told her what you
thought about drugs, and then said, "But you should use drugs yourself to
see."
<<And you have every right in the world to do just that. But I'd hate to
think
of something wonderful -- anything at all -- you may miss if the person you
trust so much just may be wrong about something. And even if they aren't,
you'll still miss the opportunity to really know it for yourself.>>
There's no one I trust enough to give them control of my life.
There are people I trust more than others.
And it's neither worth it nor possible to try everything in the whole world
and so people do tend to be discriminating with the time and resources they
have.
Aren't trust and credibility of any value?
I think they are.
Sandra
Jennifer
--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
I could care less about shushing anyone, and in fact wouldn't want
other people to not say what they think is true. But I do feel
obligated to offer another viewpoint so that others will hopefully
think twice before completely dismissing things they know nothing
about for themselves, based on someone else's reaction. On an
unschooling list I think checking something out for oneself shouldn't
be frowned upon.
her what you thought about drugs, and then said, "But you should use
drugs yourself to see."
In my last post I specifically said I wouldn't tell my daughter to
touch a hot iron to see for herself. That's a limiting view on how
to go about learning something. There are other ways to discover and
observe than putting oneself in jeopardy. Nor does someone have to
do drugs to see the effects it has. And yes, if my daughter insisted
on lending someone money that I didn't think would pay it back, I'd
let her learn it for herself. I wouldn't give the okay to jump off a
bridge if she insisted on finding out what it's like (not without a
bungy cord), but I hardly think that learning more about a different
religious philosophy is dangerous. The lesson taught there is "Don't
learn... it's dangerous."
JenW
> This sounds really good and soothing, but it also sounds likerhetoric to win this argument or to shush the opposition.
I could care less about shushing anyone, and in fact wouldn't want
other people to not say what they think is true. But I do feel
obligated to offer another viewpoint so that others will hopefully
think twice before completely dismissing things they know nothing
about for themselves, based on someone else's reaction. On an
unschooling list I think checking something out for oneself shouldn't
be frowned upon.
> I doubt you tell your daughter or your friend to try lending moneyto someone you KNOW hasn't paid you or others back. I doubt you told
her what you thought about drugs, and then said, "But you should use
drugs yourself to see."
In my last post I specifically said I wouldn't tell my daughter to
touch a hot iron to see for herself. That's a limiting view on how
to go about learning something. There are other ways to discover and
observe than putting oneself in jeopardy. Nor does someone have to
do drugs to see the effects it has. And yes, if my daughter insisted
on lending someone money that I didn't think would pay it back, I'd
let her learn it for herself. I wouldn't give the okay to jump off a
bridge if she insisted on finding out what it's like (not without a
bungy cord), but I hardly think that learning more about a different
religious philosophy is dangerous. The lesson taught there is "Don't
learn... it's dangerous."
JenW
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/14/03 7:37:41 AM, JennWeed1@... writes:
<< On an
unschooling list I think checking something out for oneself shouldn't
be frowned upon. >>
Definitely not. You're right.
It just seemed you were suggesting Tia was telling lies, and that seemed
beyond "check it out!"
Another friend of mine from childhood, Robert Torres, who survived teen
leukemia and then died in his 40s of the complications from the treatment,
was a Scientologist. Busy with the newness of it at first and quieter later,
he never said a bad thing about it. Everyone who knew him really loved him.
He only had one person he refused to deal with himself, and that was about
musical differences and integrity.
Sandra
<< On an
unschooling list I think checking something out for oneself shouldn't
be frowned upon. >>
Definitely not. You're right.
It just seemed you were suggesting Tia was telling lies, and that seemed
beyond "check it out!"
Another friend of mine from childhood, Robert Torres, who survived teen
leukemia and then died in his 40s of the complications from the treatment,
was a Scientologist. Busy with the newness of it at first and quieter later,
he never said a bad thing about it. Everyone who knew him really loved him.
He only had one person he refused to deal with himself, and that was about
musical differences and integrity.
Sandra
Tia Leschke
but I hardly think that learning more about a different
On the other hand, when I was growing up in Scientology, it was well known
that it was only a religion to bypass laws about practicing psychology
without a license. A minister's license gives one the right to do
"counselling".
Tia
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
saftety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Ben Franklin
leschke@...
> religious philosophy is dangerous. The lesson taught there is "Don'tThen again, some religious philosophies *are* dangerous. Think Jonestown.
> learn... it's dangerous."
On the other hand, when I was growing up in Scientology, it was well known
that it was only a religion to bypass laws about practicing psychology
without a license. A minister's license gives one the right to do
"counselling".
Tia
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
saftety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Ben Franklin
leschke@...
Tia Leschke
>later,
> Another friend of mine from childhood, Robert Torres, who survived teen
> leukemia and then died in his 40s of the complications from the treatment,
> was a Scientologist. Busy with the newness of it at first and quieter
> he never said a bad thing about it. Everyone who knew him really lovedhim.
> He only had one person he refused to deal with himself, and that wasabout
> musical differences and integrity.On another hand . . .
I should say that my mother always felt she had learned useful things for
her life from Scientology. It's the organization that she and I have huge
problems with. (Well, she probably doesn't even remember any of it anymore.
She doesn't remember much of anything these days, including my sister's name
right after a visit with her.) %^ (
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
saftety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Ben Franklin
leschke@...
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/14/03 11:30:58 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
like a lie. What I did say was that someone lied TO her (or her father) if
they said the auditing was a cancer cure.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
> It just seemed you were suggesting Tia was telling lies, and that seemedI see. I never intended to suggest that if I did. Nothing from Tia sounded
> beyond "check it out!"
>
like a lie. What I did say was that someone lied TO her (or her father) if
they said the auditing was a cancer cure.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/14/03 12:11:48 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
leschke@... writes:
rumor mill. Scientology has nothing to do with the field of psychology or
psychiatry, and anyone who makes an effort to find out the truth about
Scientology will know that from the get go. In your circle of associations
who didn't agree with it, something like that probably WAS well known. And I
could find a circle of people that thought unschooling was dangerous, and I
could get on a list like this one and tell anyone who asked that it's "well
known" unschooling hurts children. And I'd be right... according to the
company I keep.
But the point remains that people who care to know about something should
take the time to find out for themselves. Knowledge isn't dangerous. If it
were, we should all just pack it in and call it a life. It's what you do
with it that counts.
I'm apalled at the careless bashing of someone's personal beliefs on this
list. I wouldn't consider bashing anyone for believing in Christianity or
Buddhism or anything else, even if I didn't agree with it and even if I heard
some shocking rumors about it. Stating an opinion is one thing. The
downright hateful comments are another.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
leschke@... writes:
>That's the kind of bunk about Scientology I've seen countless times in the
> On the other hand, when I was growing up in Scientology, it was well known
> that it was only a religion to bypass laws about practicing psychology
> without a license. A minister's license gives one the right to do
> "counselling".
> Tia
rumor mill. Scientology has nothing to do with the field of psychology or
psychiatry, and anyone who makes an effort to find out the truth about
Scientology will know that from the get go. In your circle of associations
who didn't agree with it, something like that probably WAS well known. And I
could find a circle of people that thought unschooling was dangerous, and I
could get on a list like this one and tell anyone who asked that it's "well
known" unschooling hurts children. And I'd be right... according to the
company I keep.
But the point remains that people who care to know about something should
take the time to find out for themselves. Knowledge isn't dangerous. If it
were, we should all just pack it in and call it a life. It's what you do
with it that counts.
I'm apalled at the careless bashing of someone's personal beliefs on this
list. I wouldn't consider bashing anyone for believing in Christianity or
Buddhism or anything else, even if I didn't agree with it and even if I heard
some shocking rumors about it. Stating an opinion is one thing. The
downright hateful comments are another.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Tia Leschke
>associations
> That's the kind of bunk about Scientology I've seen countless times in the
> rumor mill. Scientology has nothing to do with the field of psychology or
> psychiatry, and anyone who makes an effort to find out the truth about
> Scientology will know that from the get go. In your circle of
> who didn't agree with it, something like that probably WAS well known.And I
> could find a circle of people that thought unschooling was dangerous, andI
> could get on a list like this one and tell anyone who asked that it's"well
> known" unschooling hurts children. And I'd be right... according to theSorry Jenn, but this was the circle of people who *were* very involved with
> company I keep.
Scientology, who believed it was a good thing. It was *long* before my
mother was kicked out. In fact most of them dutifully "disconnected" from
my mother, even close friends, when told to by the org.
>heard
>
> I'm apalled at the careless bashing of someone's personal beliefs on this
> list. I wouldn't consider bashing anyone for believing in Christianity or
> Buddhism or anything else, even if I didn't agree with it and even if I
> some shocking rumors about it. Stating an opinion is one thing. TheThey're all based on my personal experiences, Jenn. It was a hateful
> downright hateful comments are another.
experience for me, all the way around. I personally would hate to see
someone else hurt. Some of the ideas are good, though I wouldn't go so far
as to call them beliefs, but the org *was* a dictatorship. And what I heard
from people was from very involved individuals, not shocking rumours from
someone univolved in the organization.
Just out of curiosity, how long have you been involved, and how high up the
hierarchy are you? Are you an auditor? Have you spent any time in their
org?
Tia
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
saftety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Ben Franklin
leschke@...
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/14/03 12:13:24 PM, JennWeed1@... writes:
<< But the point remains that people who care to know about something should
take the time to find out for themselves. Knowledge isn't dangerous. If it
were, we should all just pack it in and call it a life. >>
Why isn't that knowledge free, if it's so good for people?
<<I'm apalled at the careless bashing of someone's personal beliefs on this
list. I wouldn't consider bashing anyone for believing in Christianity or
Buddhism or anything else, even if I didn't agree with it and even if I heard
some shocking rumors about it. .>
Do you consider Scientology to be the equal of Christianity or Buddhism?
If filing with the IRS for religious-organization status for tax purposes is
the definition of a religion (that is, if the U.S. Internal Revenue Service
creates religions by approving a form) then maybe it is!
Can people learn all about Scientology for free?
Sandra
<< But the point remains that people who care to know about something should
take the time to find out for themselves. Knowledge isn't dangerous. If it
were, we should all just pack it in and call it a life. >>
Why isn't that knowledge free, if it's so good for people?
<<I'm apalled at the careless bashing of someone's personal beliefs on this
list. I wouldn't consider bashing anyone for believing in Christianity or
Buddhism or anything else, even if I didn't agree with it and even if I heard
some shocking rumors about it. .>
Do you consider Scientology to be the equal of Christianity or Buddhism?
If filing with the IRS for religious-organization status for tax purposes is
the definition of a religion (that is, if the U.S. Internal Revenue Service
creates religions by approving a form) then maybe it is!
Can people learn all about Scientology for free?
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/14/03 7:18:23 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
the official site, but other sites like "Liveandgrow.org". And wouldn't it
be nice if *everything* that's good for you was free?
compare religions in general as far as specific beliefs are concerned, and I
really don't know much about other religions to be honest.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
> Why isn't that knowledge free, if it's so good for people?There is a ton of free info on the internet for anyone to read. Not only on
the official site, but other sites like "Liveandgrow.org". And wouldn't it
be nice if *everything* that's good for you was free?
> Do you consider Scientology to be the equal of Christianity or Buddhism?I consider Scientology a religion, if that's what you're asking. I don't
compare religions in general as far as specific beliefs are concerned, and I
really don't know much about other religions to be honest.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/14/03 2:28:40 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
leschke@... writes:
only intended to hurt. Even if they aren't *your* beliefs it doesn't
disqualify them as beliefs.
a bit of time in several orgs, and I've had several auditors. I've just
begun training and have completed the course in how to study, which has
helped tremendously in many areas of life. Non-training (personal) -wise
I've done the purification program and have seen a positive difference in
mental clarity and physical health after getting rid of toxins, drugs, etc.
in my body. I've also learned a great deal from books, lectures and whatnot.
Some of it has been a challenging journey, but once through it, there was no
mistaking the permanent gains I got and the clarity was priceless. So far
these are my personal experiences with it.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
leschke@... writes:
> Some of the ideas are good, though I wouldn't go so far as to call themThat's the type of statement I'm referring to. It doesn't make sense and is
> beliefs,
only intended to hurt. Even if they aren't *your* beliefs it doesn't
disqualify them as beliefs.
> Just out of curiosity, how long have you been involved, and how high up theI've been a Scientologist over 6 years. I'm not an auditor yet. I've spent
> hierarchy are you? Are you an auditor? Have you spent any time in their
> org?
> Tia
>
a bit of time in several orgs, and I've had several auditors. I've just
begun training and have completed the course in how to study, which has
helped tremendously in many areas of life. Non-training (personal) -wise
I've done the purification program and have seen a positive difference in
mental clarity and physical health after getting rid of toxins, drugs, etc.
in my body. I've also learned a great deal from books, lectures and whatnot.
Some of it has been a challenging journey, but once through it, there was no
mistaking the permanent gains I got and the clarity was priceless. So far
these are my personal experiences with it.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/14/03 7:35:30 PM, JennWeed1@... writes:
<< And wouldn't it be nice if *everything* that's good for you was free?>>
I don't expect free food, or free musical instruments.
But information is nice to share.
I don't expect free books, but I'm suspicious when information itself is only
available to those who pay for it.
Every single day I provide free information to people about unschooling.
Just about the only days I don't are when I'm at a conference speaking.
Sometimes people pay to go to the conferences, but they're not forbidden to
pass on what they learn there, and most of the expense is the hotel and food.
So to share information in person with other families costs money, but to
join this list or to go to sites online, that's all free.
If you don't know much about religions, how do you know Scientology is like
or unlike other religions? It seems to be a business, and not a religion.
And by "seems to be" I mean shares characteristics with businesses and not
with religions. So why are they considered a religion? Are there meeting
places people can show up to and join in worship or study?
Sandra
<< And wouldn't it be nice if *everything* that's good for you was free?>>
I don't expect free food, or free musical instruments.
But information is nice to share.
I don't expect free books, but I'm suspicious when information itself is only
available to those who pay for it.
Every single day I provide free information to people about unschooling.
Just about the only days I don't are when I'm at a conference speaking.
Sometimes people pay to go to the conferences, but they're not forbidden to
pass on what they learn there, and most of the expense is the hotel and food.
So to share information in person with other families costs money, but to
join this list or to go to sites online, that's all free.
If you don't know much about religions, how do you know Scientology is like
or unlike other religions? It seems to be a business, and not a religion.
And by "seems to be" I mean shares characteristics with businesses and not
with religions. So why are they considered a religion? Are there meeting
places people can show up to and join in worship or study?
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/14/03 8:17:40 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
the thrift store.....
I have also picked up some Gideon's pocket bibles at the thrift store to keep
in my car and my purse. I didn't know that the inside said they were not to
be sold...oops LOL...anyway the sale benefitted the thrift store's charity so
i hope it is okay!
Ang
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
> Can people learn all about Scientology for free?this probably is not what you meant, but I have seen L Ron Hubbard books at
>
> Sandra
>
the thrift store.....
I have also picked up some Gideon's pocket bibles at the thrift store to keep
in my car and my purse. I didn't know that the inside said they were not to
be sold...oops LOL...anyway the sale benefitted the thrift store's charity so
i hope it is okay!
Ang
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/14/2003 8:44:09 PM Eastern Standard Time, SandraDodd writes:
Scientology frowns on passing on "verbal" information since it is subject to the opinions and/or interpretation of the individual. It has often been observed that "verbal data" has been passed on with vital pieces missing or with false interpretations, prejudices or misunderstandings, and this has only served to distort the subject from its original intention, making it seem conflicting, incomprehensible or unusable. Since Scientology's only goal is to help people, they only want to ensure info is passed on correctly without alteration so that people can benefit from it.
JenW
> I don't expect free books, but I'm suspicious when iformation itself is only available to those who pay for it.Actually, I know already of at least one Scientology book on the internet that IS free. There is a lot of info free out there including hundreds if not thousands of Hubbard's writings as well.
Scientology frowns on passing on "verbal" information since it is subject to the opinions and/or interpretation of the individual. It has often been observed that "verbal data" has been passed on with vital pieces missing or with false interpretations, prejudices or misunderstandings, and this has only served to distort the subject from its original intention, making it seem conflicting, incomprehensible or unusable. Since Scientology's only goal is to help people, they only want to ensure info is passed on correctly without alteration so that people can benefit from it.
> If you don't know much about religions, how do you know Scientology is like or unlike other religions?I never said I knew if Scientology is like or unlike other religions. I do feel though, that a religion should address the spirit or spiritual growth, and it's my belief that Scientology does this. It has business-like aspects, of course, as it takes money and an entire administrative system to run a church, organization, courseroom, stock materials and staff, etc. But I'd say every religion has a business-aspect to it. They do have a courseroom for study and Sunday Service in most churches.
JenW
Tia Leschke
> > I don't expect free books, but I'm suspicious when iformation itself isonly available to those who pay for it.
>that IS free. There is a lot of info free out there including hundreds if
> Actually, I know already of at least one Scientology book on the internet
not thousands of Hubbard's writings as well.
There's lots of free information out there, but in what other religion does
it cost money for just about every step of spiritual advancement?
Tia
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
saftety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Ben Franklin
leschke@...
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/15/03 8:46:08 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
leschke@... writes:
is non-profit, and it takes a good sized staff effectively trained to run a
church that can deliver all the services they provide. That's not accounting
for all the money that goes toward helping improve the environment. For one
example, they recently set up a purification program in New York City for the
9/11 firefighters. So many of these firefighters were literally dying of
toxins they were exposed to at the World Trade Center, and no one and no
doctors could help them. We had to literally fight to be allowed to set this
program up for these guys to help them... even though it was entirely out of
pocket for Scientology. And after completing the program, people who were
previously very sick are walking out of the program feeling in better health
than they did even before 9/11. (How evil of us.) I don't know of anyone
getting rich in Scientology. Not financially. But I do know a lot of people
in Scientology who really bust their asses everyday to help people.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
leschke@... writes:
> There's lots of free information out there, but in what other religion doesI honestly don't know about other religions. But I do know that Scientology
> it cost money for just about every step of spiritual advancement?
> Tia
>
is non-profit, and it takes a good sized staff effectively trained to run a
church that can deliver all the services they provide. That's not accounting
for all the money that goes toward helping improve the environment. For one
example, they recently set up a purification program in New York City for the
9/11 firefighters. So many of these firefighters were literally dying of
toxins they were exposed to at the World Trade Center, and no one and no
doctors could help them. We had to literally fight to be allowed to set this
program up for these guys to help them... even though it was entirely out of
pocket for Scientology. And after completing the program, people who were
previously very sick are walking out of the program feeling in better health
than they did even before 9/11. (How evil of us.) I don't know of anyone
getting rich in Scientology. Not financially. But I do know a lot of people
in Scientology who really bust their asses everyday to help people.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/15/2003 9:45:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
leschke@... writes:
to tithe 10% of your income to the church every week. Of course there are
special collections for missionaries the church supports and stuff. So all
Churches collect money on some level. They have to in order to sustain
themselves and their buildings and furnishings and educational materials and
such.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
leschke@... writes:
> There's lots of free information out there, but in what other religion doesI think in almost all Christian churches, if one is a member one is expected
> it cost money for just about every step of spiritual advancement?
>
to tithe 10% of your income to the church every week. Of course there are
special collections for missionaries the church supports and stuff. So all
Churches collect money on some level. They have to in order to sustain
themselves and their buildings and furnishings and educational materials and
such.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Fetteroll
on 4/16/03 8:31 AM, rubyprincesstsg@... at rubyprincesstsg@...
wrote:
the information and support a member needs is available for free. Money
supports the institution that allows the information to be available for
free, but the information and support is available regardless of whether
someone pays or not.
Joyce
wrote:
> I think in almost all Christian churches, if one is a member one is expectedBut money isn't tied into spiritual advancement in mainstream religions. All
> to tithe 10% of your income to the church every week. Of course there are
> special collections for missionaries the church supports and stuff. So all
> Churches collect money on some level. They have to in order to sustain
> themselves and their buildings and furnishings and educational materials and
> such.
the information and support a member needs is available for free. Money
supports the institution that allows the information to be available for
free, but the information and support is available regardless of whether
someone pays or not.
Joyce
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/15/03 10:28:20 PM, JennWeed1@... writes:
<< And after completing the program, people who were
previously very sick are walking out of the program feeling in better health
than they did even before 9/11. (How evil of us.) >>
Is this sarcasm Scientology-approved?
I didn't ever say "evil," I was just questioning whether it could be so clear
that Tia was wrong and everything had changed and that it was not psychology
but religion. "Walking out of the program feeling in better health" sounds
much like counselling. Giving it away to victims of a disaster isn't the
same as making it available free to just anyone.
There is a principle they teach in applied psychology. I've forgotten its
name, but the way undergrads used to run the test to prove it was to show
people something (a movie was typical) or let them participate in some
activity. Some groups were not charged money. Some were charged a little
bit. Some were charged quite a bit. Then they reviewed the activity or movie
to tell how much they liked it. The middle group liked it best, no matter
what it was.
When someone gets something for free, they put little value on it. When
someone pays a LOT for something, they're justifiably critical if it's not
fabulous. If they pay some money they want to justify paying that money, and
if they can find their $2 worth, then they declare themselves satisfied, and
they think they got a good deal.
If it's true that Scientology is based in psychology, then the founders
probably knew that principle and that could be some of their justification
for charging money. If they charge enough to make it seem important but not
enough to make people really critical and embarrassed to have spent so much,
it will be "just right."
Sandra
<< And after completing the program, people who were
previously very sick are walking out of the program feeling in better health
than they did even before 9/11. (How evil of us.) >>
Is this sarcasm Scientology-approved?
I didn't ever say "evil," I was just questioning whether it could be so clear
that Tia was wrong and everything had changed and that it was not psychology
but religion. "Walking out of the program feeling in better health" sounds
much like counselling. Giving it away to victims of a disaster isn't the
same as making it available free to just anyone.
There is a principle they teach in applied psychology. I've forgotten its
name, but the way undergrads used to run the test to prove it was to show
people something (a movie was typical) or let them participate in some
activity. Some groups were not charged money. Some were charged a little
bit. Some were charged quite a bit. Then they reviewed the activity or movie
to tell how much they liked it. The middle group liked it best, no matter
what it was.
When someone gets something for free, they put little value on it. When
someone pays a LOT for something, they're justifiably critical if it's not
fabulous. If they pay some money they want to justify paying that money, and
if they can find their $2 worth, then they declare themselves satisfied, and
they think they got a good deal.
If it's true that Scientology is based in psychology, then the founders
probably knew that principle and that could be some of their justification
for charging money. If they charge enough to make it seem important but not
enough to make people really critical and embarrassed to have spent so much,
it will be "just right."
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/16/03 6:32:36 AM, rubyprincesstsg@... writes:
<< I think in almost all Christian churches, if one is a member one is
expected
to tithe 10% of your income to the church every week. Of course there are
special collections for missionaries the church supports and stuff. So all
Churches collect money on some level. They have to in order to sustain
themselves and their buildings and furnishings and educational materials and
such. >>
I've never heard of any family being stopped at the door because they were
behind on their tithing. Some families never tithe. Some people just go
occasionally and don't become members.
Sandra
<< I think in almost all Christian churches, if one is a member one is
expected
to tithe 10% of your income to the church every week. Of course there are
special collections for missionaries the church supports and stuff. So all
Churches collect money on some level. They have to in order to sustain
themselves and their buildings and furnishings and educational materials and
such. >>
I've never heard of any family being stopped at the door because they were
behind on their tithing. Some families never tithe. Some people just go
occasionally and don't become members.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/16/2003 12:33:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
reading some on the subject and obviously it's better to get your information
from someone first hand than just the "party line" on a website!
Either way, doesn't really affect me, that's their religion and they can do
it however they please, even if it does seem foreign to me. It does seem
interesting when you are reading about it though.
glena
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
> I've never heard of any family being stopped at the door because they wereSo they collect money at the door if you are a scientologist? I've been
> behind on their tithing. Some families never tithe.
reading some on the subject and obviously it's better to get your information
from someone first hand than just the "party line" on a website!
Either way, doesn't really affect me, that's their religion and they can do
it however they please, even if it does seem foreign to me. It does seem
interesting when you are reading about it though.
glena
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jennifer
--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
some people actually think we're evil. Sometimes in writing I get
caught up in my own thoughts and forget you (or anyone) may be seeing
everything as being directed at you. Sorry about that.
It isn't counselling. It's a purification program to get rid of
toxins and drugs accumulated in the body. It is laid out in full
detail in the book Clear Body Clear Mind, and anyone can read it and
use the program for free on themselves.
>(How evil of us.) >>
> In a message dated 4/15/03 10:28:20 PM, JennWeed1@a... writes:
>
>Whoa...it wasn't directed at you. I was making light of the fact
> Is this sarcasm Scientology-approved?
> I didn't ever say "evil,"
some people actually think we're evil. Sometimes in writing I get
caught up in my own thoughts and forget you (or anyone) may be seeing
everything as being directed at you. Sorry about that.
>"Walking out of the program feeling in better health" soundsisn't the same as making it available free to just anyone.
> much like counselling. Giving it away to victims of a disaster
It isn't counselling. It's a purification program to get rid of
toxins and drugs accumulated in the body. It is laid out in full
detail in the book Clear Body Clear Mind, and anyone can read it and
use the program for free on themselves.
Tia Leschke
> > I think in almost all Christian churches, if one is a member one isexpected
> > to tithe 10% of your income to the church every week. Of course thereare
> > special collections for missionaries the church supports and stuff. Soall
> > Churches collect money on some level. They have to in order to sustainand
> > themselves and their buildings and furnishings and educational materials
> > such.All
>
> But money isn't tied into spiritual advancement in mainstream religions.
> the information and support a member needs is available for free. MoneyThere's also a difference between "one is expected to tithe 10%" and "this
> supports the institution that allows the information to be available for
> free, but the information and support is available regardless of whether
> someone pays or not.
test shows you need x to advance. That will be x dollars please."
Tia
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
saftety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Ben Franklin
leschke@...
Mary
From: <JennWeed1@...>
<<For one example, they recently set up a purification program in New York
City for the
9/11 firefighters. So many of these firefighters were literally dying of
toxins they were exposed to at the World Trade Center, and no one and no
doctors could help them. We had to literally fight to be allowed to set
this
program up for these guys to help them... even though it was entirely out of
pocket for Scientology. And after completing the program, people who were
previously very sick are walking out of the program feeling in better health
than they did even before 9/11>>
I heard John Travolta talking about this on tv. Sounded like a wonderful
thing to do.
Mary B
<<For one example, they recently set up a purification program in New York
City for the
9/11 firefighters. So many of these firefighters were literally dying of
toxins they were exposed to at the World Trade Center, and no one and no
doctors could help them. We had to literally fight to be allowed to set
this
program up for these guys to help them... even though it was entirely out of
pocket for Scientology. And after completing the program, people who were
previously very sick are walking out of the program feeling in better health
than they did even before 9/11>>
I heard John Travolta talking about this on tv. Sounded like a wonderful
thing to do.
Mary B
Tia Leschke
>not
> If it's true that Scientology is based in psychology, then the founders
> probably knew that principle and that could be some of their justification
> for charging money. If they charge enough to make it seem important but
> enough to make people really critical and embarrassed to have spent somuch,
> it will be "just right."They say that it isn't based in psychology.
I guess it would depend on what "enough to seem important" would be for each
person, but it was thousands of dollars back in the 60s.
Tia
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
saftety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Ben Franklin
leschke@...
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/16/03 11:54:02 AM Central Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:
<< I've never heard of any family being stopped at the door because they were
behind on their tithing. Some families never tithe. Some people just go
occasionally and don't become members. >>
Yes. Exactly.
Unity does not push membership and if they DID ask for 10% upon becoming a
member, I'd run.
So far, all of the classes they offer are open to anyone, whether you go to
the church or not. And the class I just finished was "love offerings" for
payment. I think I gave a total of $15 for a 6wk. course. I wanted to give
more, it was worth it, but just didn't have it at the time.
I've gone for several months and never felt any pressure about money.
All the classes and spiritual teachings are available to anyone that wants it.
I was raised in a church that was very secretive about money. NEVER again.
Honesty is important to me. A church that charges for spiritual information
would have me running the other direction.
Ren
"The sun is shining--the sun is shining. That is the magic. The flowers are
growing--the roots are stirring. That is the magic. Being alive is the
magic--being strong is the magic The magic is in me--the magic is in
me....It's in every one of us."
----Frances Hodgson Burnett
[email protected] writes:
<< I've never heard of any family being stopped at the door because they were
behind on their tithing. Some families never tithe. Some people just go
occasionally and don't become members. >>
Yes. Exactly.
Unity does not push membership and if they DID ask for 10% upon becoming a
member, I'd run.
So far, all of the classes they offer are open to anyone, whether you go to
the church or not. And the class I just finished was "love offerings" for
payment. I think I gave a total of $15 for a 6wk. course. I wanted to give
more, it was worth it, but just didn't have it at the time.
I've gone for several months and never felt any pressure about money.
All the classes and spiritual teachings are available to anyone that wants it.
I was raised in a church that was very secretive about money. NEVER again.
Honesty is important to me. A church that charges for spiritual information
would have me running the other direction.
Ren
"The sun is shining--the sun is shining. That is the magic. The flowers are
growing--the roots are stirring. That is the magic. Being alive is the
magic--being strong is the magic The magic is in me--the magic is in
me....It's in every one of us."
----Frances Hodgson Burnett
Tia Leschke
>information
> So they collect money at the door if you are a scientologist? I've been
> reading some on the subject and obviously it's better to get your
> from someone first hand than just the "party line" on a website!I don't know about their church services. That's new since my time. But
they offer processing and training. That costs money and is the only way to
advance spiritually.
Tia
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
saftety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Ben Franklin
leschke@...