Great Idea
Gayle Bechtel
I think this explains a lot!!
Subject: Great Idea
Subject: Great Idea
>in
>
> >
> >Let's see, I think it started when Madeline Murray O'Hare complained
> >She didn't want any prayer in our schools, and we said OK..
> >
> >Then someone said you better not read the Bible in school, the Bible
> >that says thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal, and love your
> >neighbor as yourself. And we said, OK..
> >
> >Dr. Benjamin Spock said we shouldn't spank our children when they
> >misbehave because their little personalities would be warped and we
> >might damage their self-esteem. And we said, an expert should know
> >what he's talking about so we won't spank them anymore..
> >
> >Then someone said teachers and principals better not discipline our
> >children when they misbehave. And the school administrators said no
> >faculty member in this school better touch a student when they
> >misbehave because we don't want any bad publicity, and we surely
> >don't want to be sued. And we accepted their reasoning..
> >
> >Then someone said, let's let our daughters have abortions if they want,
> >and they won't even have to tell their parents. And we said, that's a
> >grand idea..
> >
> >Then some wise school board member said, since boys will be boys and
> >they're going to do it anyway, let's give our sons all the condoms
> >they want, so they can have all the fun they desire, and we won't have to
> >tell their parents they got them at school. And we said, that's another
> >great
> >idea..
> >
> >Then some of our top elected officials said it doesn't matter what we do
> >private as long as we do our jobs. And agreeing with them, we said itprivate
> >doesn't matter to me what anyone, including the President, does in
> >as longand
> >as I have a job and the economy is good..
> >
> >And then someone said let's print magazines with pictures of nude women
> >call it wholesome down-to-earth appreciation for the beauty of the femaleconscience,
> >body.
> >And we said we have no problem with that..
> >
> >And someone else took that appreciation a step further and published
> >pictures of
> >nude children and then stepped further still by making them available on
> >the internet. And we said they're entitled to their free speech..
> >
> >And the entertainment industry said, let's make TV shows and movies that
> >promote profanity, violence, and illicit sex. And let's record music that
> >encourages rape, drugs, murder, suicide, and satanic themes..
> >
> >And we said it's just entertainment, it has no adverse effect, and nobody
> >takes it seriously anyway, so go right ahead..
> >
> >Therefore, now we're asking ourselves why our children have no
> >why they don't know right from wrong, and why it doesn't bother them to
> kill
> >strangers, their classmates, and themselves..
> >
> >Probably, if we think about it long and hard enough, we can figure it
> >out. I think it has a great deal to do with... "we reap what we sow."
Weigner, Keith A.
Amen to that !!!!
Keith A. Weigner
Keith A. Weigner
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gayle Bechtel [SMTP:jbabi@...]
> Sent: Monday, February 14, 2000 10:10 AM
> To: weignerk@...
> Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Great Idea
>
> From: "Gayle Bechtel" <jbabi@...>
>
>
> I think this explains a lot!!
>
> Subject: Great Idea
> >
> >
> > >
> > >Let's see, I think it started when Madeline Murray O'Hare complained
> > >She didn't want any prayer in our schools, and we said OK..
> > >
> > >Then someone said you better not read the Bible in school, the Bible
> > >that says thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal, and love your
> > >neighbor as yourself. And we said, OK..
> > >
> > >Dr. Benjamin Spock said we shouldn't spank our children when they
> > >misbehave because their little personalities would be warped and we
> > >might damage their self-esteem. And we said, an expert should know
> > >what he's talking about so we won't spank them anymore..
> > >
> > >Then someone said teachers and principals better not discipline our
> > >children when they misbehave. And the school administrators said no
> > >faculty member in this school better touch a student when they
> > >misbehave because we don't want any bad publicity, and we surely
> > >don't want to be sued. And we accepted their reasoning..
> > >
> > >Then someone said, let's let our daughters have abortions if they want,
> > >and they won't even have to tell their parents. And we said, that's a
> > >grand idea..
> > >
> > >Then some wise school board member said, since boys will be boys and
> > >they're going to do it anyway, let's give our sons all the condoms
> > >they want, so they can have all the fun they desire, and we won't have
> to
> > >tell their parents they got them at school. And we said, that's another
> > >great
> > >idea..
> > >
> > >Then some of our top elected officials said it doesn't matter what we
> do
> in
> > >private as long as we do our jobs. And agreeing with them, we said it
> > >doesn't matter to me what anyone, including the President, does in
> private
> > >as long
> > >as I have a job and the economy is good..
> > >
> > >And then someone said let's print magazines with pictures of nude women
> and
> > >call it wholesome down-to-earth appreciation for the beauty of the
> female
> > >body.
> > >And we said we have no problem with that..
> > >
> > >And someone else took that appreciation a step further and published
> > >pictures of
> > >nude children and then stepped further still by making them available
> on
> > >the internet. And we said they're entitled to their free speech..
> > >
> > >And the entertainment industry said, let's make TV shows and movies
> that
> > >promote profanity, violence, and illicit sex. And let's record music
> that
> > >encourages rape, drugs, murder, suicide, and satanic themes..
> > >
> > >And we said it's just entertainment, it has no adverse effect, and
> nobody
> > >takes it seriously anyway, so go right ahead..
> > >
> > >Therefore, now we're asking ourselves why our children have no
> conscience,
> > >why they don't know right from wrong, and why it doesn't bother them to
> > kill
> > >strangers, their classmates, and themselves..
> > >
> > >Probably, if we think about it long and hard enough, we can figure it
> > >out. I think it has a great deal to do with... "we reap what we sow."
>
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>
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Brynn
I think classifying child pornography in with no bible at school is
ridiculous and narrow minded. This is spam in my inbox. "It doesn't matter
what we do in private"? What my family does in private SHOULD NOT matter to
anyone but us. So, once again people are blaming the TV for children
shooting other children, or maybe it's music? Or maybe it's the "crowd" they
are hanging out with. What garbage. Let us all look in the mirror and take
responsibility four ourselves and what influences we have on our families.
These, of course, are my OPINIONS, and even though they are just the tip of
the iceberg, these types of closed-minded "tales" should possibly be looked
at a little closer?
Brynn~
"To be nobody but yourself in a world which is doing its best night and day
to make you like everybody else means to fight the hardest battle any human
being can fight and never stop fighting."
--e.e. cummings
ridiculous and narrow minded. This is spam in my inbox. "It doesn't matter
what we do in private"? What my family does in private SHOULD NOT matter to
anyone but us. So, once again people are blaming the TV for children
shooting other children, or maybe it's music? Or maybe it's the "crowd" they
are hanging out with. What garbage. Let us all look in the mirror and take
responsibility four ourselves and what influences we have on our families.
These, of course, are my OPINIONS, and even though they are just the tip of
the iceberg, these types of closed-minded "tales" should possibly be looked
at a little closer?
Brynn~
"To be nobody but yourself in a world which is doing its best night and day
to make you like everybody else means to fight the hardest battle any human
being can fight and never stop fighting."
--e.e. cummings
David & Betsy Wright
BTW
I may be in the minority among Christians, but I don't want anyone teaching my kids religious beliefs in school either. It could never work. You would have to include everything from every faith to make it fair. That's not what they're there for. Families must take the responsiblility to raise their own, each according to their personal beliefs. We teach our own and also allow trusted Sunday school teachers etc at our church to teach them. Parents have given up on molding and training their kids and just expect the school or the gov't to take care of it. Which is probably why this country is such a mess.
What do you guys think?
Betsy Wright
The Wright Way To Homeschool
http://www.angelfire.com/fl3/homeschoolingwrights
email: deejay@... can do everything through Him who strengthens me. Phillipians 4:13
I may be in the minority among Christians, but I don't want anyone teaching my kids religious beliefs in school either. It could never work. You would have to include everything from every faith to make it fair. That's not what they're there for. Families must take the responsiblility to raise their own, each according to their personal beliefs. We teach our own and also allow trusted Sunday school teachers etc at our church to teach them. Parents have given up on molding and training their kids and just expect the school or the gov't to take care of it. Which is probably why this country is such a mess.
What do you guys think?
Betsy Wright
The Wright Way To Homeschool
http://www.angelfire.com/fl3/homeschoolingwrights
email: deejay@... can do everything through Him who strengthens me. Phillipians 4:13
Weigner, Keith A.
Certainly not blaming TV or music for the actions of children. But, I do
hold "PARENTS" accountable for training their children in the way they are
to go (Proverbs 22:6)
As the saying goes " garbage in, garbage out"
Yes, we all have the "right" to privacy, but what we do in private is who we
truely are, and will become..
Futhermore, don't take my word, but the word of God (Leviticus 11:44)
Before knowing Christ as my savior, when I would look in the mirror, I saw a
good person. But the Bible says that the heart of man is desperately wicked.
So I guess I not to good after all. Know when I look in the mirror, I see
the blood of Jesus covering all my sin that I have committed against him (1
John 1:9)
These are not my opinions, these are the words of God, and if we do take a
closer look at the true God of the Bible, we will either praise him for what
he has done on our account, or we will seek a god that pleases our own
feelings.
Keith
hold "PARENTS" accountable for training their children in the way they are
to go (Proverbs 22:6)
As the saying goes " garbage in, garbage out"
Yes, we all have the "right" to privacy, but what we do in private is who we
truely are, and will become..
Futhermore, don't take my word, but the word of God (Leviticus 11:44)
Before knowing Christ as my savior, when I would look in the mirror, I saw a
good person. But the Bible says that the heart of man is desperately wicked.
So I guess I not to good after all. Know when I look in the mirror, I see
the blood of Jesus covering all my sin that I have committed against him (1
John 1:9)
These are not my opinions, these are the words of God, and if we do take a
closer look at the true God of the Bible, we will either praise him for what
he has done on our account, or we will seek a god that pleases our own
feelings.
Keith
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Brynn [SMTP:panchot@...]
> Sent: Monday, February 14, 2000 12:36 PM
> To: weignerk@...
> Subject: RE: [Unschooling-dotcom] Great Idea
>
> From: "Brynn" <panchot@...>
>
>
> I think classifying child pornography in with no bible at school is
> ridiculous and narrow minded. This is spam in my inbox. "It doesn't matter
> what we do in private"? What my family does in private SHOULD NOT matter
> to anyone but us. So, once again people are blaming the TV for children
> shooting other children, or maybe it's music? Or maybe it's the "crowd"
> they are hanging out with. What garbage. Let us all look in the mirror and
> take responsibility four ourselves and what influences we have on our
> families. These, of course, are my OPINIONS, and even though they are just
> the tip of the iceberg, these types of closed-minded "tales" should
> possibly be looked at a little closer?
>
>
> Brynn~
> "To be nobody but yourself in a world which is doing its best night and
> day to make you like everybody else means to fight the hardest battle any
> human being can fight and never stop fighting."
> --e.e. cummings
>
> _____
>
> ONElist Sponsor
> <http://adforce.imgis.com/?adlink|2.0|2|82093|1|1|misc=6734;loc=300;>
> Please click above to support our sponsor
>
> _____
>
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> Check it all out at: <http://www.unschooling.com>
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>
Tom & Nanci Kuykendall
At 10:09 AM 02/14/2000 -0500, you wrote:
I think it's inflamatory and very finger pointing, and the problems are not
this simple. It's real nice and comfy and convienient to say it's someone
else's fault. It's the evil non Christians who don't qoute the scriptures,
it's those OTHER people! They are destroying the fabric of our lives!
Please tell me you were being facetious.
Nanci K.
>From: ""<>I don't....
>
> I think this explains a lot!! Subject: Great Idea
I think it's inflamatory and very finger pointing, and the problems are not
this simple. It's real nice and comfy and convienient to say it's someone
else's fault. It's the evil non Christians who don't qoute the scriptures,
it's those OTHER people! They are destroying the fabric of our lives!
Please tell me you were being facetious.
Nanci K.
Brown
Thanks Brynn - my version was going to be a lot ruder, so I thought I
better keep quiet <g>, but I agree totally with what you say.
Carol
in New Zealand
Brynn wrote:
better keep quiet <g>, but I agree totally with what you say.
Carol
in New Zealand
Brynn wrote:
> From: "Brynn" <panchot@...>
> I think classifying child pornography in with no bible at school is
> ridiculous and narrow minded. This is spam in my inbox. "It doesn't
> matter what we do in private"? What my family does in private SHOULD
> NOT matter to anyone but us. So, once again people are blaming the TV
> for children shooting other children, or maybe it's music? Or maybe
> it's the "crowd" they are hanging out with. What garbage. Let us all
> look in the mirror and take responsibility four ourselves and what
> influences we have on our families. These, of course, are my OPINIONS,
> and even though they are just the tip of the iceberg, these types of
> closed-minded "tales" should possibly be looked at a little
> closer? Brynn~
> "To be nobody but yourself in a world which is doing its best night
> and day to make you like everybody else means to fight the hardest
> battle any human being can fight and never stop fighting."
> --e.e. cummings
A. Yates
What if we don't believe in any god?
I don't think any of this has anything to do with god, but with
ourselves and who we are as humans.
Ann
I don't think any of this has anything to do with god, but with
ourselves and who we are as humans.
Ann
Tom & Nanci Kuykendall
>These are not my opinions, these are the words of God, and if we do take aThis in incredibly insulting Kieth. Has this list become a list where
>closer look at the true God of the Bible, we will either praise him for what
>he has done on our account, or we will seek a god that pleases our own
>feelings.
>
>Keith
people are judged unworthy and shunned? Should I unsubscribe with my
heathen self?? How sad. Here I thought we were in the 21st century and
that Unschooling was an example of our society moving towards embracing
each other in brotherhood/sisterhood, despite racial, ethnic or religious
differences. What is happening to this list?
Nanci K. (not amused)
A. Yates
Nanci, Don't you go anywhere. The valuable people on the list are much
more important. That means you!
Ann
Tom & Nanci Kuykendall wrote:
more important. That means you!
Ann
Tom & Nanci Kuykendall wrote:
> From: Tom & Nanci Kuykendall <tn-k4of5@...>
>
> >These are not my opinions, these are the words of God, and if we do
> take a
> >closer look at the true God of the Bible, we will either praise him
> for what
> >he has done on our account, or we will seek a god that pleases our
> own
> >feelings.
> >
> >Keith
>
> This in incredibly insulting Kieth. Has this list become a list where
>
> people are judged unworthy and shunned? Should I unsubscribe with my
> heathen self?? How sad. Here I thought we were in the 21st century
> and
> that Unschooling was an example of our society moving towards
> embracing
> each other in brotherhood/sisterhood, despite racial, ethnic or
> religious
> differences. What is happening to this list?
>
> Nanci K. (not amused)
>
>
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> Please click above to support our sponsor
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
Weigner, Keith A.
Well Ann, if you don't believe in God, I'm sorry to hear that.
But it does have everything to do with God, in fact everything in life has
to do with God.
God has created the whole universe and everything on this planet (Genesis
1:1, Genesis 1:26)
and Psalms 19:1 says that the heavens declare the Glory of God, the skies
proclaim the work of his hands. We will give an account of our lives when we
stand before God someday (Romans 14:12).
Keith Weigner
But it does have everything to do with God, in fact everything in life has
to do with God.
God has created the whole universe and everything on this planet (Genesis
1:1, Genesis 1:26)
and Psalms 19:1 says that the heavens declare the Glory of God, the skies
proclaim the work of his hands. We will give an account of our lives when we
stand before God someday (Romans 14:12).
Keith Weigner
> -----Original Message-----
> From: A. Yates [SMTP:hooperck@...]
> Sent: Monday, February 14, 2000 2:57 PM
> To: weignerk@...
> Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Great Idea
>
> From: "A. Yates" <hooperck@...>
>
> What if we don't believe in any god?
> I don't think any of this has anything to do with god, but with
> ourselves and who we are as humans.
> Ann
>
>
>
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Sue
>Well Ann, if you don't believe in God, I'm sorry to hear that.Hi Keith,
>But it does have everything to do with God, in fact everything in life has
>to do with God.
>God has created the whole universe and everything on this planet (Genesis
>1:1, Genesis 1:26)
>and Psalms 19:1 says that the heavens declare the Glory of God, the skies
>proclaim the work of his hands. We will give an account of our lives when we
>stand before God someday (Romans 14:12).
>
>Keith Weigner
I don't believe in the christian god either, he let me down when as a small
child I did believe in him, he lets hundreds of children down each day, if
he was all powerful why does he allow children to die and suffer at the
hands of abusers? At the age of five after having a cigarette stubbed out
in the palm of my hand by a "gentleman" who loved quoting the bible, and
after being beaten for being stupid and falling off a swing and splitting
my head open, after having it stitched with no anesthetic, then being sent
to bed with no food and blood all through my hair. These were just two of
the too many incidents which told me that either I was a worthless nothing
who god cared nothing for or god didn't exist. I chose the latter.
My God is Mother Nature in all Her beauty, I am in my church when alone or
in good company out in a natural area, my hymes are the sounds of birds
singing, and a creek flowing over rocks.
If you choose to believe in your God, that's fine with me, but I will not
believe that I am going to hell because I don't.
There are good and bad people in all religions, of all colors etc, if there
was some kind of judgement day I don't believe that we will be granted
access to Heaven, Nivarna or whatever because we believed in god, but by
our actions on this planet.
D Klement
Brynn wrote:
It has the audacity to infer that all who attend puclic schools are
Xtian and want Bible readings and prayer in their childs daily
lives/routine.
Equating taking the Bible and prayers etc out of the school and letting
ones child have the freedom to explore music and friendships doesn't
mean they will become murderers, pro abortion or pedophiles.
What rot!
Part of the reason my children were removed from the Public system
(although it wasn't the main reason) was because of Xtian morals and
values being endorsed by the PS as *the* one and only system of morals
and values.
While there is nothing wrong per se with Xtian values they are not mine.
The school being *public* and by law being required to embrace all
creeds, races and styles of families, have no right to portray one
specific religion's values and biases, as having the sole right to be
the ones dictating the moral fabric of that institution and that of it's
charges' (students) .
How a person is raised (responsibly, with a sense of integrity and
compassion, one would hope), their economic background and how (s)he
lives and participates within their family and community, has a mojor
role in how they *turn out* in the end.
As a Buddhist I would consider how they lived in their past lives as a
major influence too....but that's based on my religious views and my
moral values/compass.
Buzz (Debbie)
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The Klement Family "Education is what survives when
Darryl, Debbie, what has been learned has been
Kathleen, Nathan & forgotten"
Samantha B.F. Skinner in "New Scientist".
e-mail- klement@...
Canadian homeschool page: http:\\www.flora.org/homeschool-ca/
Ont. Federation of Teaching Parents: http:\\www.flora.org/oftp/
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>The Great Idea posting grated on my nerves.
> From: "Brynn" <panchot@...>
>
> I think classifying child pornography in with no bible at school is
> ridiculous and narrow minded. This is spam in my inbox. "It doesn't
> matter what we do in private"? What my family does in private SHOULD
> NOT matter to anyone but us. So, once again people are blaming the TV
> for children shooting other children, or maybe it's music? Or maybe
> it's the "crowd" they are hanging out with. What garbage. Let us all
> look in the mirror and take responsibility four ourselves and what
> influences we have on our families. These, of course, are my OPINIONS,
> and even though they are just the tip of the iceberg, these types of
> closed-minded "tales" should possibly be looked at a little closer?
>
It has the audacity to infer that all who attend puclic schools are
Xtian and want Bible readings and prayer in their childs daily
lives/routine.
Equating taking the Bible and prayers etc out of the school and letting
ones child have the freedom to explore music and friendships doesn't
mean they will become murderers, pro abortion or pedophiles.
What rot!
Part of the reason my children were removed from the Public system
(although it wasn't the main reason) was because of Xtian morals and
values being endorsed by the PS as *the* one and only system of morals
and values.
While there is nothing wrong per se with Xtian values they are not mine.
The school being *public* and by law being required to embrace all
creeds, races and styles of families, have no right to portray one
specific religion's values and biases, as having the sole right to be
the ones dictating the moral fabric of that institution and that of it's
charges' (students) .
How a person is raised (responsibly, with a sense of integrity and
compassion, one would hope), their economic background and how (s)he
lives and participates within their family and community, has a mojor
role in how they *turn out* in the end.
As a Buddhist I would consider how they lived in their past lives as a
major influence too....but that's based on my religious views and my
moral values/compass.
Buzz (Debbie)
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The Klement Family "Education is what survives when
Darryl, Debbie, what has been learned has been
Kathleen, Nathan & forgotten"
Samantha B.F. Skinner in "New Scientist".
e-mail- klement@...
Canadian homeschool page: http:\\www.flora.org/homeschool-ca/
Ont. Federation of Teaching Parents: http:\\www.flora.org/oftp/
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Gayle Bechtel
I am sorry to have posted this. I think I have hit a sore nerve here. Yes the post did go a little far in what has happened, these were not my thoughts but what was e-mailed to me, but it showed what has happened in our school system since prayer was taken out. I didn't want this to be taken extreme seriousness that is was.
I don't think that our school system should teach a specific faith but that there are many faiths and the basic ideas of them. I was brought up Christian and was never exposed, mostly because of where I lived, that there were many different faiths besides Christian.
I don't think that our school system should teach a specific faith but that there are many faiths and the basic ideas of them. I was brought up Christian and was never exposed, mostly because of where I lived, that there were many different faiths besides Christian.
----- Original Message -----
From: Weigner, Keith A.
To: '[email protected]'
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2000 3:43 PM
Subject: RE: [Unschooling-dotcom] Great Idea
From: "Weigner, Keith A." <Weignerk@...>
Well Ann, if you don't believe in God, I'm sorry to hear that.
But it does have everything to do with God, in fact everything in life has
to do with God.
God has created the whole universe and everything on this planet (Genesis
1:1, Genesis 1:26)
and Psalms 19:1 says that the heavens declare the Glory of God, the skies
proclaim the work of his hands. We will give an account of our lives when we
stand before God someday (Romans 14:12).
Keith Weigner
> -----Original Message-----
> From: A. Yates [SMTP:hooperck@...]
> Sent: Monday, February 14, 2000 2:57 PM
> To: weignerk@...
> Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Great Idea
>
> From: "A. Yates" <hooperck@...>
>
> What if we don't believe in any god?
> I don't think any of this has anything to do with god, but with
> ourselves and who we are as humans.
> Ann
>
>
>
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
>
> FREE ADVICE FROM REAL PEOPLE! Xpertsite has thousands of experts who
> are willing to answer your questions for FREE. Go to Xpertsite today
> and put your mind to rest.
> <a href=" http://clickme.onelist.com/ad/XpersiteCPC ">Click Here</a>
>
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Sharon J Holden
I just have to asked, as a buddhist, don't you pray? It did not say
anything about a specific religion, it was about taking away the right to
believe in whatever God or Gods we choose. I am not a religious person,
but I am spiritual, I believe in many things from many religions, and I
still think it wrong to take away a persons right to pray. I took my
children out of public school because they valued money and
accomplishment more than the person and I do not want my children to feel
that material things are more valueable than human beings. I don't think
anyone who knew me could say I was a religious fanatic or only embraced
one way of belief, my oldest daughter practices Wicca, my youngest
daughter is a Luteren, my mother in law is a Catholic and my mother is a
reincarnationist, I believe that every faith and belief has an element of
truth in it or there would not be so many people who believed. However I
agree with the basic principal this is trying to get across, if you take
the parents and faith away how can you offer a child a balanced
upbringing, instead of seeing one thing that you disagree with and making
an issue try to see the entire overview, I have reread it and still do
not see anywhere that is says anything about Xtian beliefs or morals, am
I missing something? And I personally have a big problem with child
pornography and would hope that every parent would. Personally I also
think thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal, and love your neighbor
as yourself., is a pretty good moral foundation for any religion and if
you look probably appears in one form or another in any religion you can
name. And that is MY OPIONION,
Sharon
On Mon, 14 Feb 2000 12:59:51 -0800 D Klement <klement@...>
writes:
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anything about a specific religion, it was about taking away the right to
believe in whatever God or Gods we choose. I am not a religious person,
but I am spiritual, I believe in many things from many religions, and I
still think it wrong to take away a persons right to pray. I took my
children out of public school because they valued money and
accomplishment more than the person and I do not want my children to feel
that material things are more valueable than human beings. I don't think
anyone who knew me could say I was a religious fanatic or only embraced
one way of belief, my oldest daughter practices Wicca, my youngest
daughter is a Luteren, my mother in law is a Catholic and my mother is a
reincarnationist, I believe that every faith and belief has an element of
truth in it or there would not be so many people who believed. However I
agree with the basic principal this is trying to get across, if you take
the parents and faith away how can you offer a child a balanced
upbringing, instead of seeing one thing that you disagree with and making
an issue try to see the entire overview, I have reread it and still do
not see anywhere that is says anything about Xtian beliefs or morals, am
I missing something? And I personally have a big problem with child
pornography and would hope that every parent would. Personally I also
think thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal, and love your neighbor
as yourself., is a pretty good moral foundation for any religion and if
you look probably appears in one form or another in any religion you can
name. And that is MY OPIONION,
Sharon
On Mon, 14 Feb 2000 12:59:51 -0800 D Klement <klement@...>
writes:
> From: D Klement <klement@...>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Brynn wrote:
> >
> > From: "Brynn" <panchot@...>
> >
> > I think classifying child pornography in with no bible at school is
> > ridiculous and narrow minded. This is spam in my inbox. "It doesn't
> > matter what we do in private"? What my family does in private
> SHOULD
> > NOT matter to anyone but us. So, once again people are blaming the
> TV
> > for children shooting other children, or maybe it's music? Or maybe
> > it's the "crowd" they are hanging out with. What garbage. Let us
> all
> > look in the mirror and take responsibility four ourselves and what
> > influences we have on our families. These, of course, are my
> OPINIONS,
> > and even though they are just the tip of the iceberg, these types
> of
> > closed-minded "tales" should possibly be looked at a little closer?
> >
>
> The Great Idea posting grated on my nerves.
> It has the audacity to infer that all who attend puclic schools are
> Xtian and want Bible readings and prayer in their childs daily
> lives/routine.
>
> Equating taking the Bible and prayers etc out of the school and
> letting
> ones child have the freedom to explore music and friendships doesn't
> mean they will become murderers, pro abortion or pedophiles.
>
> What rot!
>
> Part of the reason my children were removed from the Public system
> (although it wasn't the main reason) was because of Xtian morals and
> values being endorsed by the PS as *the* one and only system of
> morals
> and values.
>
> While there is nothing wrong per se with Xtian values they are not
> mine.
> The school being *public* and by law being required to embrace all
> creeds, races and styles of families, have no right to portray one
> specific religion's values and biases, as having the sole right to be
> the ones dictating the moral fabric of that institution and that of
> it's
> charges' (students) .
>
> How a person is raised (responsibly, with a sense of integrity and
> compassion, one would hope), their economic background and how (s)he
> lives and participates within their family and community, has a
> mojor
> role in how they *turn out* in the end.
>
> As a Buddhist I would consider how they lived in their past lives as
> a
> major influence too....but that's based on my religious views and my
> moral values/compass.
>
> Buzz (Debbie)
>
>
> --
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> The Klement Family "Education is what survives when
> Darryl, Debbie, what has been learned has been
> Kathleen, Nathan & forgotten"
> Samantha B.F. Skinner in "New Scientist".
> e-mail- klement@...
> Canadian homeschool page: http:\\www.flora.org/homeschool-ca/
> Ont. Federation of Teaching Parents: http:\\www.flora.org/oftp/
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
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Beth Burnham
"I believe in many things from many religions, and I
still think it wrong to take away a persons right to pray"
The whole thing with public schools and institutionalised schools it that
when you try and make it "fair" to everyone no one's needs get met. What
about those who are atheists or agnostics? I also think it is important to
appreciate our cultural and religious differences how many schools teach
that appreciation?Those schools that do that I know of a few rare inner city
schools. Still Unschooling is about learning to respect our children's
differences and not coercing them. Some schools may try but most are not
allowed for fear of insulting someone. Up here they do only Christian and
once in a rare while a Jewish thing but no other religions or world cultures
are appreciated. The whole thing about ps schools in America historically it
was founded by the Christians who wanted to indoctronate people like the
Native Americans into their way of thinking. So now of course the moral
majority can yell and all about it but there really is no way to honor
everyone's traditions without learning how to be open minded and not
offended by those differences. Who is teaching that value? That is why I am
so alone up here and looking for support. Most of the homeschooling groups
are Christian and NOT unschoolers.
Beth
still think it wrong to take away a persons right to pray"
The whole thing with public schools and institutionalised schools it that
when you try and make it "fair" to everyone no one's needs get met. What
about those who are atheists or agnostics? I also think it is important to
appreciate our cultural and religious differences how many schools teach
that appreciation?Those schools that do that I know of a few rare inner city
schools. Still Unschooling is about learning to respect our children's
differences and not coercing them. Some schools may try but most are not
allowed for fear of insulting someone. Up here they do only Christian and
once in a rare while a Jewish thing but no other religions or world cultures
are appreciated. The whole thing about ps schools in America historically it
was founded by the Christians who wanted to indoctronate people like the
Native Americans into their way of thinking. So now of course the moral
majority can yell and all about it but there really is no way to honor
everyone's traditions without learning how to be open minded and not
offended by those differences. Who is teaching that value? That is why I am
so alone up here and looking for support. Most of the homeschooling groups
are Christian and NOT unschoolers.
Beth
Tracy Oldfield
Brynn, I was just about to post something along the lines of 'lumping not smacking children in with not having the Bible in schools and child pornography is rather ridiculous,' but you've said the whole thing so well I won't bother. Oh, sorry, I just did :-) I don't think this is a great idea at all. I think the great idea would be to not leave so much in the hands of 'experts,' particularly in the 'education' department, isn't that one of the reasons we're unschoolers, and on this list? I'm not sure whether the Bible should be in schools or not, but if it is then all other major religious works should be too. I'm not sure whether porn should be on the internet or not, and since on the few occasions I've landed on such sites, there have been big signs saying 'over 18's only,' etc all over them, I think it's about as dangerous as the top-shelf magazines and those aren't banned, so whaddya do? Child pornography is a whole other ballgame, of course. Dr Spock was reportedly outraged at being branded permissive, and according to Deborah Jackson in Three in a Bed, there is little in Dr Spock's babycare manual that could be seen as such.
There is serious bigotry going on here, and I've seen folks thrown off other lists for less. The original post does mention the Bible, and that alone (apart from the rest) gives it a Christian bias. Keith's God is not mine, nor many others, and that has been shown. Institutionalised school is exactly that, intitutionalising the children it processes into whatever culture is in control of the school. The whole thing has an Ezzo-ish reek to me, the bit about teachers not disciplining children, users of the English language should be ashamed of the use of discipline in this way, I thought a disciple was a follower, in Christian terms, one of the select followers of Jesus, so did Jesus 'discipline' them? No, if you believe the teachings (I don't believe that he is any more a part of the force of the world known as God than any other human, but I think he existed and taught, and was a charismatic and strong spiritual leader, that's my slant on it :-) ) he led by example, both in his actions and his words. I can't think of a better way of disciplining anyone.
Ya know what, the best idea is if people think about what they're saying before they post these rants, even if they didn't write them. And those who have strong views on any subject can learn to present those views without assuming that everyone else holds those views, or should hold those views.
JMN-S-HO!!!
Tracy
There is serious bigotry going on here, and I've seen folks thrown off other lists for less. The original post does mention the Bible, and that alone (apart from the rest) gives it a Christian bias. Keith's God is not mine, nor many others, and that has been shown. Institutionalised school is exactly that, intitutionalising the children it processes into whatever culture is in control of the school. The whole thing has an Ezzo-ish reek to me, the bit about teachers not disciplining children, users of the English language should be ashamed of the use of discipline in this way, I thought a disciple was a follower, in Christian terms, one of the select followers of Jesus, so did Jesus 'discipline' them? No, if you believe the teachings (I don't believe that he is any more a part of the force of the world known as God than any other human, but I think he existed and taught, and was a charismatic and strong spiritual leader, that's my slant on it :-) ) he led by example, both in his actions and his words. I can't think of a better way of disciplining anyone.
Ya know what, the best idea is if people think about what they're saying before they post these rants, even if they didn't write them. And those who have strong views on any subject can learn to present those views without assuming that everyone else holds those views, or should hold those views.
JMN-S-HO!!!
Tracy
----- Original Message -----
From: Brynn
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2000 5:36 PM
Subject: RE: [Unschooling-dotcom] Great Idea
From: "Brynn" <panchot@...>
I think classifying child pornography in with no bible at school is ridiculous and narrow minded. This is spam in my inbox. "It doesn't matter what we do in private"? What my family does in private SHOULD NOT matter to anyone but us. So, once again people are blaming the TV for children shooting other children, or maybe it's music? Or maybe it's the "crowd" they are hanging out with. What garbage. Let us all look in the mirror and take responsibility four ourselves and what influences we have on our families. These, of course, are my OPINIONS, and even though they are just the tip of the iceberg, these types of closed-minded "tales" should possibly be looked at a little closer?
Brynn~
"To be nobody but yourself in a world which is doing its best night and day to make you like everybody else means to fight the hardest battle any human being can fight and never stop fighting."
--e.e. cummings
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D Klement
Weigner, Keith A. wrote:
nothing to me.
I take no gods word for anything.Their existence in the Universe is just
one more form on the path between the here and now, and Nirvana.
I won't go into it further on the list but your words of Biblical
references only ring true for Xtians.
While I respect the values of many Xtians I due not recognize your
doctrines.
How would you feel if I came on here quoting rom the Diamond or Lotus
Sutras or the most revered Dhammapada telling you you had to listen and
take heed of them.
You'd probably feel insulted or angry and feel that I was
prosletizing(sp?).
I agree that parents are responsible to a large degree for how their
children turn out but there are also many external forces that influence
the final *out come* as well.
There are also the occaisional *bad seeds) that no matter how good a job
a parent does, the out come may not be as nice/satisfying as we'd hoped
for.
Buzz
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The Klement Family "Education is what survives when
Darryl, Debbie, what has been learned has been
Kathleen, Nathan & forgotten"
Samantha B.F. Skinner in "New Scientist".
e-mail- klement@...
Canadian homeschool page: http:\\www.flora.org/homeschool-ca/
Ont. Federation of Teaching Parents: http:\\www.flora.org/oftp/
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>With all due respect Keith....your words and your G-d mean absolutely
> From: "Weigner, Keith A." <Weignerk@...>
>
> Certainly not blaming TV or music for the actions of children. But, I do
> hold "PARENTS" accountable for training their children in the way they are
> to go (Proverbs 22:6)
> As the saying goes " garbage in, garbage out"
> Yes, we all have the "right" to privacy, but what we do in private is who we
> truely are, and will become..
> Futhermore, don't take my word, but the word of God (Leviticus 11:44)
> Before knowing Christ as my savior, when I would look in the mirror, I saw a
> good person. But the Bible says that the heart of man is desperately wicked.
> So I guess I not to good after all. Know when I look in the mirror, I see
> the blood of Jesus covering all my sin that I have committed against him (1
> John 1:9)
> These are not my opinions, these are the words of God, and if we do take a
> closer look at the true God of the Bible, we will either praise him for what
> he has done on our account, or we will seek a god that pleases our own
> feelings.
>
> Keith
nothing to me.
I take no gods word for anything.Their existence in the Universe is just
one more form on the path between the here and now, and Nirvana.
I won't go into it further on the list but your words of Biblical
references only ring true for Xtians.
While I respect the values of many Xtians I due not recognize your
doctrines.
How would you feel if I came on here quoting rom the Diamond or Lotus
Sutras or the most revered Dhammapada telling you you had to listen and
take heed of them.
You'd probably feel insulted or angry and feel that I was
prosletizing(sp?).
I agree that parents are responsible to a large degree for how their
children turn out but there are also many external forces that influence
the final *out come* as well.
There are also the occaisional *bad seeds) that no matter how good a job
a parent does, the out come may not be as nice/satisfying as we'd hoped
for.
Buzz
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The Klement Family "Education is what survives when
Darryl, Debbie, what has been learned has been
Kathleen, Nathan & forgotten"
Samantha B.F. Skinner in "New Scientist".
e-mail- klement@...
Canadian homeschool page: http:\\www.flora.org/homeschool-ca/
Ont. Federation of Teaching Parents: http:\\www.flora.org/oftp/
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
D Klement
Weigner, Keith A. wrote:
religious point of view (Buddhist) the Universe was never created. It
has always existed.It was never not here. And the life you live is
nothing but illusion.......
That comes from the teachings I believe in.
But you feel free to believe what you want to. That is your right. I
want you and everyone to have that right.
Just don't force your views on me and expect me to accept them on your
say so.
Buzz
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The Klement Family "Education is what survives when
Darryl, Debbie, what has been learned has been
Kathleen, Nathan & forgotten"
Samantha B.F. Skinner in "New Scientist".
e-mail- klement@...
Canadian homeschool page: http:\\www.flora.org/homeschool-ca/
Ont. Federation of Teaching Parents: http:\\www.flora.org/oftp/
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>Aww gee now here we go...Sorry to disagree with you Keith but from my
> From: "Weigner, Keith A." <Weignerk@...>
>
> Well Ann, if you don't believe in God, I'm sorry to hear that.
> But it does have everything to do with God, in fact everything in life has
> to do with God.
> God has created the whole universe and everything on this planet (Genesis
> 1:1, Genesis 1:26)
> and Psalms 19:1 says that the heavens declare the Glory of God, the skies
> proclaim the work of his hands. We will give an account of our lives when we
> stand before God someday (Romans 14:12).
>
> Keith Weigner
>
religious point of view (Buddhist) the Universe was never created. It
has always existed.It was never not here. And the life you live is
nothing but illusion.......
That comes from the teachings I believe in.
But you feel free to believe what you want to. That is your right. I
want you and everyone to have that right.
Just don't force your views on me and expect me to accept them on your
say so.
Buzz
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The Klement Family "Education is what survives when
Darryl, Debbie, what has been learned has been
Kathleen, Nathan & forgotten"
Samantha B.F. Skinner in "New Scientist".
e-mail- klement@...
Canadian homeschool page: http:\\www.flora.org/homeschool-ca/
Ont. Federation of Teaching Parents: http:\\www.flora.org/oftp/
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Sharon J Holden
Perhaps the problem is we seem to have so many differences that we have
trouble seeing the similarities, I suppose if the definition of praying
is asking for forgiveness than I do not pray either, I see it as a way to
communicate with a spirit world far greater than I am. The first and most
important thing I believe is do no harm, by failing to do harm you
indirectly do good. I did not protest the removal of prayer, forcing
someone to pray is as wrong as forbiding them to pray, I protest the
removal of the right to pray or not as you choose. I think that even
people who do not believe in the traditional christian God believe in
something greater than themselves, Atheist believe that there is no God,
it is still a valid belief, I do not have to agree with it, just
acknowledge their right to believe it. I want to teach my children to
care about something greater than themselves, the world, other people, no
one person should be more important than the whole of humankind. We have
a common goal, to teach our children without all the hatred and prejudice
that is rampant in the schools, that does not mean that everyone who
attends a public school is full of hatred, but they have much more of it
to deal with than the children who are blessed with parents who can
school them at home. I just think a little tolerence and understanding is
in order, many of us have no other support except this list and a few
others similar to it, I do not and I depend on all of you to keep me
centered and on track. Because I do not attend a church and practice the
faith that is popular I am excluded from the homeschool groups locally
available to me, I personally need the contact and support of other
people who are trying to do the same thing I am, raise and educate my
children to be the best they can be and hopefully make a postive
difference in the world while they are in it. And I respect everyone's
right to an opionion, even if it is different than mine.
Sharon
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trouble seeing the similarities, I suppose if the definition of praying
is asking for forgiveness than I do not pray either, I see it as a way to
communicate with a spirit world far greater than I am. The first and most
important thing I believe is do no harm, by failing to do harm you
indirectly do good. I did not protest the removal of prayer, forcing
someone to pray is as wrong as forbiding them to pray, I protest the
removal of the right to pray or not as you choose. I think that even
people who do not believe in the traditional christian God believe in
something greater than themselves, Atheist believe that there is no God,
it is still a valid belief, I do not have to agree with it, just
acknowledge their right to believe it. I want to teach my children to
care about something greater than themselves, the world, other people, no
one person should be more important than the whole of humankind. We have
a common goal, to teach our children without all the hatred and prejudice
that is rampant in the schools, that does not mean that everyone who
attends a public school is full of hatred, but they have much more of it
to deal with than the children who are blessed with parents who can
school them at home. I just think a little tolerence and understanding is
in order, many of us have no other support except this list and a few
others similar to it, I do not and I depend on all of you to keep me
centered and on track. Because I do not attend a church and practice the
faith that is popular I am excluded from the homeschool groups locally
available to me, I personally need the contact and support of other
people who are trying to do the same thing I am, raise and educate my
children to be the best they can be and hopefully make a postive
difference in the world while they are in it. And I respect everyone's
right to an opionion, even if it is different than mine.
Sharon
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Pray to whom????Buddhists don't have the same regard for gods that
> others do. Buddhists meditate upon problems and ask for help with
> prayers which people try to equate with Xtian prayer. We do not pray
> for forgivness because we don't believe in sin. Our prayers mostly
> honour teachers and Buddhas. We do not *pray* to the historical
> Buddha
> most of you ae familiar with. There are many Buddhas. Buddhist
> prayer is
> not the same as Xtian prayer. A Lama would be better at explaining
> this
> than I. I can't truly describe the difference today....my mind is a
> bit
> mushy as I'm going through a Multiple Sclerosis flare up right now.
> My
> Brain knows what (feeling wise) it wants to express but my mental
> dictionary isn't working well and some Buddhist concepts are hard to
> describe.
>
> As far as the Great Idea not having a decidedly Xtian slant... I have
> not heard of any Muslims or Jews or other faiths protesting the
> removal
> of prayer from the public school systems in the US and Canada.
>
> Buzz
> --
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> The Klement Family "Education is what survives when
> Darryl, Debbie, what has been learned has been
> Kathleen, Nathan & forgotten"
> Samantha B.F. Skinner in "New Scientist".
> e-mail- klement@...
> Canadian homeschool page: http:\\www.flora.org/homeschool-ca/
> Ont. Federation of Teaching Parents: http:\\www.flora.org/oftp/
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
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D Klement
Sharon J Holden wrote:
others do. Buddhists meditate upon problems and ask for help with
prayers which people try to equate with Xtian prayer. We do not pray
for forgivness because we don't believe in sin. Our prayers mostly
honour teachers and Buddhas. We do not *pray* to the historical Buddha
most of you ae familiar with. There are many Buddhas. Buddhist prayer is
not the same as Xtian prayer. A Lama would be better at explaining this
than I. I can't truly describe the difference today....my mind is a bit
mushy as I'm going through a Multiple Sclerosis flare up right now. My
Brain knows what (feeling wise) it wants to express but my mental
dictionary isn't working well and some Buddhist concepts are hard to
describe.
As far as the Great Idea not having a decidedly Xtian slant... I have
not heard of any Muslims or Jews or other faiths protesting the removal
of prayer from the public school systems in the US and Canada.
Buzz
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The Klement Family "Education is what survives when
Darryl, Debbie, what has been learned has been
Kathleen, Nathan & forgotten"
Samantha B.F. Skinner in "New Scientist".
e-mail- klement@...
Canadian homeschool page: http:\\www.flora.org/homeschool-ca/
Ont. Federation of Teaching Parents: http:\\www.flora.org/oftp/
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>Pray to whom????Buddhists don't have the same regard for gods that
> From: Sharon J Holden <kickaboo@...>
>
> I just have to asked, as a buddhist, don't you pray? It did not say
> anything about a specific religion, it was about taking away the right to
> believe in whatever God or Gods we choose. I am not a religious person,
> but I am spiritual, I believe in many things from many religions, and I
> still think it wrong to take away a persons right to pray. I took my
> children out of public school because they valued money and
> accomplishment more than the person and I do not want my children to feel
> that material things are more valueable than human beings. I don't think
> anyone who knew me could say I was a religious fanatic or only embraced
> one way of belief, my oldest daughter practices Wicca, my youngest
> daughter is a Luteren, my mother in law is a Catholic and my mother is a
> reincarnationist, I believe that every faith and belief has an element of
> truth in it or there would not be so many people who believed. However I
> agree with the basic principal this is trying to get across, if you take
> the parents and faith away how can you offer a child a balanced
> upbringing, instead of seeing one thing that you disagree with and making
> an issue try to see the entire overview, I have reread it and still do
> not see anywhere that is says anything about Xtian beliefs or morals, am
> I missing something? And I personally have a big problem with child
> pornography and would hope that every parent would. Personally I also
> think thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal, and love your neighbor
> as yourself., is a pretty good moral foundation for any religion and if
> you look probably appears in one form or another in any religion you can
> name. And that is MY OPIONION,
> Sharon
others do. Buddhists meditate upon problems and ask for help with
prayers which people try to equate with Xtian prayer. We do not pray
for forgivness because we don't believe in sin. Our prayers mostly
honour teachers and Buddhas. We do not *pray* to the historical Buddha
most of you ae familiar with. There are many Buddhas. Buddhist prayer is
not the same as Xtian prayer. A Lama would be better at explaining this
than I. I can't truly describe the difference today....my mind is a bit
mushy as I'm going through a Multiple Sclerosis flare up right now. My
Brain knows what (feeling wise) it wants to express but my mental
dictionary isn't working well and some Buddhist concepts are hard to
describe.
As far as the Great Idea not having a decidedly Xtian slant... I have
not heard of any Muslims or Jews or other faiths protesting the removal
of prayer from the public school systems in the US and Canada.
Buzz
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The Klement Family "Education is what survives when
Darryl, Debbie, what has been learned has been
Kathleen, Nathan & forgotten"
Samantha B.F. Skinner in "New Scientist".
e-mail- klement@...
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
David Albert
>IMAGES
> > Well Ann, if you don't believe in God, I'm sorry to hear that.
> > But it does have everything to do with God, in fact everything in life has
> > to do with God.
> > Keith Weigner
> >
>
> Aww gee now here we go...Sorry to disagree with you Keith but from my
> religious point of view (Buddhist) the Universe was never created. It
> has always existed.It was never not here. And the life you live is
> nothing but illusion.......
> That comes from the teachings I believe in.
Image 1 The Rain of Confusion: After the Fall, God did not banish Satan from
heaven, but put him to work in His private library. Unable to control his
mischievous bent, Satan is here portrayed opening the library window and
scattering various holy books among the people of the earth to see what bedlam he
can cause. Out of the clouds of heaven thus comes the rain of confusion.
Image 2 The Tower of Biblio: Provided new insight by God Himself, the peoples of
the earth recognize their confusion and decide to unite together to build a Tower
of Biblio. The Tower is planned to reach into the highest reaches of God's
library where they can together access the single exalted Book of Love, the
highest Law, written in a language that all can understand. But, as the picture
depicts, even as the Tower is being built, the devil's librarians on earth, the
keepers of the holy books, are tearing out the foundations so that the Tower will
crumble. Once the Tower falls, the librarians will spread the tale that it is God
Himself who has sown such great confusion.
Image 3 The Annunciation: But then the Great Lord, seeing what had been done in
his Name, spoke: �What need you towers or knowledge of my books, O my people?
For I have implanted my law, the Law of Love, in each of your hearts, in each, so
that each of you shall know Me, and find Me, every one of you, even the children
among you, each in your own way.� And Satan and his priests trembled, for the
people praised the Lord, each in her own language and every one in his own song,
in a harmony of many voices together that had never before been heard on earth or
in the heavens.
David H. Albert
--
"If you love being stopped mid-page by powerful observations that strike your mind
like little explosions of light, get this book."-Home Education Magazine. To read
reviewer or reader comments, or the foreword from "And the Skylark Sings with Me",
and to order, check out the new website: www.skylarksings.com
Brown
Keith
there is no god.
another god is insulting to me - I manage quite well, thank you very much,
without a god at all. Nor do I spend my life pleasing my own feelings. As an
atheist and a humanist (oh fear and shudder, will I be struck from above, or
more likely stabbed in the back for using that 2x4-letter word - humanist?) I
have a far greater responsibility to question my personal thoughts, actions,
values, morality etc. than ever I did in my young and gullible days as a xtian
following someone else's rules.
I don't mind you saying that you agree with the sentiments expressed in the
forwarded post. I *do* mind you rabbitting on as if everyone else here is or
*should* be a xtian.
Carol
in New Zealand
> These are not my opinions, these are the words of God,It is only *your opinion* that these are the words of god. It is my opinion that
there is no god.
> and if we do take aThe assumption that those who do not believe in your biblical god will seek
> closer look at the true God of the Bible, we will either praise him for what
> he has done on our account, or we will seek a god that pleases our own
> feelings.
another god is insulting to me - I manage quite well, thank you very much,
without a god at all. Nor do I spend my life pleasing my own feelings. As an
atheist and a humanist (oh fear and shudder, will I be struck from above, or
more likely stabbed in the back for using that 2x4-letter word - humanist?) I
have a far greater responsibility to question my personal thoughts, actions,
values, morality etc. than ever I did in my young and gullible days as a xtian
following someone else's rules.
I don't mind you saying that you agree with the sentiments expressed in the
forwarded post. I *do* mind you rabbitting on as if everyone else here is or
*should* be a xtian.
Carol
in New Zealand
Brown
Keith
Again, this is *only your opinion*.
Carol
in New Zealand
"Weigner, Keith A." wrote:
Again, this is *only your opinion*.
Carol
in New Zealand
"Weigner, Keith A." wrote:
> Well Ann, if you don't believe in God, I'm sorry to hear that.
> But it does have everything to do with God, in fact everything in life has
> to do with God.
> God has created the whole universe and everything on this planet (Genesis
> 1:1, Genesis 1:26)
> and Psalms 19:1 says that the heavens declare the Glory of God, the skies
> proclaim the work of his hands. We will give an account of our lives when we
> stand before God someday (Romans 14:12).
Brown
Sharon
right to pray did they? They just said it wasn't to be done in schools as a
shared activity? People can still pray can't they? Even at school, I'm sure
that good little xtians could go have a quiet pray in the lunch break? I
certainly don't want religious instruction or prayers brought back in NZ and
I'm sure that there are American atheists, Jews, Buddhists, Muslims...... who
don't want to have their kids suffer through prayers and Bible study either.
American schools were xtian ones? Are you telling me that some schools did
the Muslim thing, others the Jewish etc? Or did they alternate days or
something? I don't think so.
prayers back into schools would help any of that. And then, would you have a
federal homeschooling law introduced to make sure that homeschooling parents
were saying the appropriate prayers each day? Because if you let those
homeschoolers get away without praying, then heck, they'll be out there
selling pornography, and murdering babies, and killing and stealing and .....
So better get a law controlling those homeschoolers don't ya know - some of
them are Buddhists, Muslims, Wiccan and even - gasp - atheists of the
humanist denomination.
Carol
> It did not sayOkay, so I'm in New Zealand. But I have to comment. No one took away the
> anything about a specific religion, it was about taking away the right to
> believe in whatever God or Gods we choose. I am not a religious person,
> but I am spiritual, I believe in many things from many religions, and I
> still think it wrong to take away a persons right to pray.
right to pray did they? They just said it wasn't to be done in schools as a
shared activity? People can still pray can't they? Even at school, I'm sure
that good little xtians could go have a quiet pray in the lunch break? I
certainly don't want religious instruction or prayers brought back in NZ and
I'm sure that there are American atheists, Jews, Buddhists, Muslims...... who
don't want to have their kids suffer through prayers and Bible study either.
> I have reread it and still doMaybe it's me that's wrong, but my understanding was that the prayers in
> not see anywhere that is says anything about Xtian beliefs or morals, am
> I missing something?
American schools were xtian ones? Are you telling me that some schools did
the Muslim thing, others the Jewish etc? Or did they alternate days or
something? I don't think so.
> And I personally have a big problem with childFair enough - I'd even agree with that. But I still don't see that bringing
> pornography and would hope that every parent would. Personally I also
> think thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal, and love your neighbor
> as yourself., is a pretty good moral foundation for any religion and if
> you look probably appears in one form or another in any religion you can
> name. And that is MY OPIONION,
prayers back into schools would help any of that. And then, would you have a
federal homeschooling law introduced to make sure that homeschooling parents
were saying the appropriate prayers each day? Because if you let those
homeschoolers get away without praying, then heck, they'll be out there
selling pornography, and murdering babies, and killing and stealing and .....
So better get a law controlling those homeschoolers don't ya know - some of
them are Buddhists, Muslims, Wiccan and even - gasp - atheists of the
humanist denomination.
Carol
Brown
Sharon
It is not accepting of others' beliefs to make statements like:
personally have come up against huge amounts of <hatred and prejudice> from
homeschooling families of so-called xtian faith.
same thing <g>
Carol
New Zealand
It is not accepting of others' beliefs to make statements like:
> I think that evenby saying this you have already denied the next bit you wrote
> people who do not believe in the traditional christian God believe in
> something greater than themselves,
> Atheist believe that there is no God,You then make assupmtions again:
> it is still a valid belief, I do not have to agree with it, just
> acknowledge their right to believe it.
> We haveNot all homeschooling parents would agree with this. My family and I
> a common goal, to teach our children without all the hatred and prejudice
> that is rampant in the schools, that does not mean that everyone who
> attends a public school is full of hatred, but they have much more of it
> to deal with than the children who are blessed with parents who can
> school them at home.
personally have come up against huge amounts of <hatred and prejudice> from
homeschooling families of so-called xtian faith.
> I just think a little tolerence and understanding isWell, I'd say the same words about myself, but I'm not sure they'd *mean* the
> in order, many of us have no other support except this list and a few
> others similar to it, I do not and I depend on all of you to keep me
> centered and on track. Because I do not attend a church and practice the
> faith that is popular I am excluded from the homeschool groups locally
> available to me, I personally need the contact and support of other
> people who are trying to do the same thing I am, raise and educate my
> children to be the best they can be and hopefully make a postive
> difference in the world while they are in it. And I respect everyone's
> right to an opionion, even if it is different than mine.
same thing <g>
Carol
New Zealand
Winifred Haun + Dancers
I have a great idea: why don't we just ignore Keith and talk about
something else? He obviously doesn't know his bible history or he
wouldn't be quoting it so often.
Let's talk about a great Christian (and Jewish and Buddhist and
Catholic...) ideal: simple living. Any families out there choosing to
live a simple life? I'd love to hear your views and stories about why and
how you've chosen a simple life and how does that fit in with
un-schooling? For me, simple living has meant learning how to buy things
cheaply, un-cluttering my house, turning off the TV (except
for "Law and Order"), keeping my 12 year old Honda, paying off my credit
card ea ch month (except December -- still don't have that most Christian
of holidays under control :), and homeschooling my child. Of course, I'm
still prone to impluse buying, a messy house, watching re-runs of
"Friends" and "Drew Carey", wanting to own a mini-van, and (on the bad
days) figuring out which pre-school/day care to send my 4 year old.
Wini
PS Bravo to Betsy Wright's opinion on teaching religion in school. Its
very similiar to the argument against teaching the arts in the schools.
We've had a great dabate here in Chicago about integrating the arts into
school curriculums. It sounds like such an ideal thing, but after
actually teaching dance in the ps, I've come to the conclusion that I
DON'T want dance taught in the ps. I don't want the schools to do for
dance (and the arts) what they've done for science and math and reading
and... (Kids who participate in dance now love it BECAUSE its something
you do outside of school.)
_____________________________________
WINIFRED HAUN & DANCERS
4225 N. Oakley
Chicago, IL 60618
773-583-2995
http://www.mcs.com/~wini/
______________________________________
something else? He obviously doesn't know his bible history or he
wouldn't be quoting it so often.
Let's talk about a great Christian (and Jewish and Buddhist and
Catholic...) ideal: simple living. Any families out there choosing to
live a simple life? I'd love to hear your views and stories about why and
how you've chosen a simple life and how does that fit in with
un-schooling? For me, simple living has meant learning how to buy things
cheaply, un-cluttering my house, turning off the TV (except
for "Law and Order"), keeping my 12 year old Honda, paying off my credit
card ea ch month (except December -- still don't have that most Christian
of holidays under control :), and homeschooling my child. Of course, I'm
still prone to impluse buying, a messy house, watching re-runs of
"Friends" and "Drew Carey", wanting to own a mini-van, and (on the bad
days) figuring out which pre-school/day care to send my 4 year old.
Wini
PS Bravo to Betsy Wright's opinion on teaching religion in school. Its
very similiar to the argument against teaching the arts in the schools.
We've had a great dabate here in Chicago about integrating the arts into
school curriculums. It sounds like such an ideal thing, but after
actually teaching dance in the ps, I've come to the conclusion that I
DON'T want dance taught in the ps. I don't want the schools to do for
dance (and the arts) what they've done for science and math and reading
and... (Kids who participate in dance now love it BECAUSE its something
you do outside of school.)
_____________________________________
WINIFRED HAUN & DANCERS
4225 N. Oakley
Chicago, IL 60618
773-583-2995
http://www.mcs.com/~wini/
______________________________________
[email protected]
I would like to comment on this statement,
Okay, so I'm in New Zealand. But I have to comment. No one took away the
right to pray did they? They just said it wasn't to be done in schools as
a
shared activity? People can still pray can't they? Even at school, I'm
sure
that good little xtians could go have a quiet pray in the lunch break? I
certainly don't want religious instruction or prayers brought back in NZ
and
I'm sure that there are American atheists, Jews, Buddhists, Muslims......
who
don't want to have their kids suffer through prayers and Bible study
either.
My nephew was suspended from 3rd grade for saying "God is great, God is
good and we thank him for our food" in the school cafeteria, it was not
about public praying for me, it was about the right to practice or not
practice my religion without being punished for it. I had hoped this list
would keep me in touch with other homeschooling families and make me feel
less cut off because of my religious beliefs or lack of them, but so far
I feel attacked and unwanted, I am seriously questionling if I want to
participate in a list where everyone is so busy attacking that no one can
listen and care anymore.
Sharon
________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
Okay, so I'm in New Zealand. But I have to comment. No one took away the
right to pray did they? They just said it wasn't to be done in schools as
a
shared activity? People can still pray can't they? Even at school, I'm
sure
that good little xtians could go have a quiet pray in the lunch break? I
certainly don't want religious instruction or prayers brought back in NZ
and
I'm sure that there are American atheists, Jews, Buddhists, Muslims......
who
don't want to have their kids suffer through prayers and Bible study
either.
My nephew was suspended from 3rd grade for saying "God is great, God is
good and we thank him for our food" in the school cafeteria, it was not
about public praying for me, it was about the right to practice or not
practice my religion without being punished for it. I had hoped this list
would keep me in touch with other homeschooling families and make me feel
less cut off because of my religious beliefs or lack of them, but so far
I feel attacked and unwanted, I am seriously questionling if I want to
participate in a list where everyone is so busy attacking that no one can
listen and care anymore.
Sharon
________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
metta
on 2/14/00 10:08 PM, kickaboo@... at kickaboo@... wrote:
might need to wade through a bit of garbage. It helps to just delete those
posts and look for the good ones. Opinions expressed by some posters do not
necessarily constitute the opinions of the majority.
So, Sharon... how many kids ya got? How old? How long have you been
unschooling? Or homeschooling?
--
Thea <metta@...>
> I had hoped this listThere's lots of caring and listening on this list, but occasionally you
> would keep me in touch with other homeschooling families and make me feel
> less cut off because of my religious beliefs or lack of them, but so far
> I feel attacked and unwanted, I am seriously questionling if I want to
> participate in a list where everyone is so busy attacking that no one can
> listen and care anymore.
might need to wade through a bit of garbage. It helps to just delete those
posts and look for the good ones. Opinions expressed by some posters do not
necessarily constitute the opinions of the majority.
So, Sharon... how many kids ya got? How old? How long have you been
unschooling? Or homeschooling?
--
Thea <metta@...>
Brown
Okay, Sharon, obviously I was wrong and I apologise. My understanding from
what I have read is obviously different from your nephew's reality.
of homeschooling, and 13 years of being told my evil humanist presence and
that of my children was not wanted at homeschooling events - even something
as innocuous as a guided tour of a factory, where there were no socialisation
opportunities for our family to grab and drag a christian family off to hell.
Our kids have been specifically excluded from sports days. I guess they think
we will cheat. Then there was the group that, when asked if they were open to
non-christians expressed complete bewilderment 'But why would a non-christian
want to homeschool?'. Then, 'well you can join in, but not until we have
drawn up behaviour guidelines and got your family to sign agreement to them -
we haven't written up any before, because we hadn't needed to as everyone in
our group is christian, so they all know how to behave properly.'
like to be attacked for my beliefs. I know the grief of trying to explain to
a bereft child why they were allowed to play at their friend's place, when a
return invitation was refused on the grounds that our home was not a suitable
place for the friend to go near. I know what a child's grief is like after
his best friend of 4 years is suddenly not allowed to have anything to do
with him, because mom has been to a new church.
All I am asking is that people don't make assumptions about my beliefs, nor
assume that because I am an atheist, I am necessarily a selfish person who
cares only for their own feelings - and yes, I know that was Keith, not you,
Sharon.
I apologise for making you feel attacked. I hope you understand that it comes
from a feeling of my beliefs not being understood, and attacked - yet again.
Carol
what I have read is obviously different from your nephew's reality.
> My nephew was suspended from 3rd grade for saying "God is great, God isI hope you won't leave the list. I guess I am over sensitive after 13 years
> good and we thank him for our food" in the school cafeteria, it was not
> about public praying for me, it was about the right to practice or not
> practice my religion without being punished for it.
of homeschooling, and 13 years of being told my evil humanist presence and
that of my children was not wanted at homeschooling events - even something
as innocuous as a guided tour of a factory, where there were no socialisation
opportunities for our family to grab and drag a christian family off to hell.
Our kids have been specifically excluded from sports days. I guess they think
we will cheat. Then there was the group that, when asked if they were open to
non-christians expressed complete bewilderment 'But why would a non-christian
want to homeschool?'. Then, 'well you can join in, but not until we have
drawn up behaviour guidelines and got your family to sign agreement to them -
we haven't written up any before, because we hadn't needed to as everyone in
our group is christian, so they all know how to behave properly.'
> I had hoped this listLike I say, I hope you won't leave the list, because I do know what it is
> would keep me in touch with other homeschooling families and make me feel
> less cut off because of my religious beliefs or lack of them, but so far
> I feel attacked and unwanted, I am seriously questionling if I want to
> participate in a list where everyone is so busy attacking that no one can
> listen and care anymore.
like to be attacked for my beliefs. I know the grief of trying to explain to
a bereft child why they were allowed to play at their friend's place, when a
return invitation was refused on the grounds that our home was not a suitable
place for the friend to go near. I know what a child's grief is like after
his best friend of 4 years is suddenly not allowed to have anything to do
with him, because mom has been to a new church.
All I am asking is that people don't make assumptions about my beliefs, nor
assume that because I am an atheist, I am necessarily a selfish person who
cares only for their own feelings - and yes, I know that was Keith, not you,
Sharon.
I apologise for making you feel attacked. I hope you understand that it comes
from a feeling of my beliefs not being understood, and attacked - yet again.
Carol