(unknown)
Sharon J Holden
I am new to the list, have 8 kids, 3 still schooling, we only removed the
3 youngest boys from public school last spring, I believe we are
unschooling, I make sure plenty of educational oportunities arrise and we
have a large variety of resourses available, but I try to let the boys
decide the direction to take and when and what they want to do. Right now
we have decided to collect postcards and learn more about the places they
come from and so I am asking for help from anyone willing to send
postcards to my boys, we would like anything, but find the maps very
interesting, we have some comic ones that relatives have sent and they
have led to some interesting conversations about why and what made the
artist draw them, so any thing except of course the things not for
children would be acceptable, I will send the address if anyone is
interested in helping us.
Sharon
________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
3 youngest boys from public school last spring, I believe we are
unschooling, I make sure plenty of educational oportunities arrise and we
have a large variety of resourses available, but I try to let the boys
decide the direction to take and when and what they want to do. Right now
we have decided to collect postcards and learn more about the places they
come from and so I am asking for help from anyone willing to send
postcards to my boys, we would like anything, but find the maps very
interesting, we have some comic ones that relatives have sent and they
have led to some interesting conversations about why and what made the
artist draw them, so any thing except of course the things not for
children would be acceptable, I will send the address if anyone is
interested in helping us.
Sharon
________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
[email protected]
In a message dated 02/13/2000 6:32:16 PM Eastern Standard Time,
kickaboo@... writes:
<< I am new to the list, have 8 kids, 3 still schooling, we only removed the
3 youngest boys from public school last spring, I believe we are
unschooling, I make sure plenty of educational oportunities arrise and we
have a large variety of resourses available, but I try to let the boys
decide the direction to take and when and what they want to do >>
Hi Sharon! Welcome to the list! Sounds like what you are doing is
"unschooling" to me =) By-the-way, I'm Dena, I have 2 children and we live
in Florida. I look forward to getting to know you!
Hugs,
Dena
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
http://www.onelist.com/subscribe/HsMomsSupport
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
kickaboo@... writes:
<< I am new to the list, have 8 kids, 3 still schooling, we only removed the
3 youngest boys from public school last spring, I believe we are
unschooling, I make sure plenty of educational oportunities arrise and we
have a large variety of resourses available, but I try to let the boys
decide the direction to take and when and what they want to do >>
Hi Sharon! Welcome to the list! Sounds like what you are doing is
"unschooling" to me =) By-the-way, I'm Dena, I have 2 children and we live
in Florida. I look forward to getting to know you!
Hugs,
Dena
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
http://www.onelist.com/subscribe/HsMomsSupport
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
michele clausen
Hi Sharon.
We would love to send you some postcards! What a wonderful idea!! My name is
Michele, I live in NewZealand with our two daughters who are 6 and 4. Send me
your address and I'll get on to it. :o) Let me know if there is any thing
else you would be interested in. :o)
Sharon J Holden wrote:
We would love to send you some postcards! What a wonderful idea!! My name is
Michele, I live in NewZealand with our two daughters who are 6 and 4. Send me
your address and I'll get on to it. :o) Let me know if there is any thing
else you would be interested in. :o)
Sharon J Holden wrote:
> From: Sharon J Holden <kickaboo@...>
>
> I am new to the list, have 8 kids, 3 still schooling, we only removed the
> 3 youngest boys from public school last spring, I believe we are
> unschooling, I make sure plenty of educational oportunities arrise and we
> have a large variety of resourses available, but I try to let the boys
> decide the direction to take and when and what they want to do. Right now
> we have decided to collect postcards and learn more about the places they
> come from and so I am asking for help from anyone willing to send
> postcards to my boys, we would like anything, but find the maps very
> interesting, we have some comic ones that relatives have sent and they
> have led to some interesting conversations about why and what made the
> artist draw them, so any thing except of course the things not for
> children would be acceptable, I will send the address if anyone is
> interested in helping us.
> Sharon
> ________________________________________________________________
> YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
> Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
> Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit:
> http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
>
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
>
> FREE ADVICE FROM REAL PEOPLE! Xpertsite has thousands of experts who
> are willing to answer your questions for FREE. Go to Xpertsite today
> and put your mind to rest.
> <a href=" http://clickme.onelist.com/ad/XpersiteCPC ">Click Here</a>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
[email protected]
Sharon please send your address..I would love to send some postcards your
way..
you can post your address to me directly thru my
email..jazballard@.....if you perfer not to post completely to the list...
Eileen
way..
you can post your address to me directly thru my
email..jazballard@.....if you perfer not to post completely to the list...
Eileen
Lynda
Sharon, have you considered joining the Postcard Exchange. There are folks
from almost all the states and several countries on the list. The kidlets
love it and have a map showing where they have gotten cards from.
[email protected]
This link will get you to the owner as I don't remember where I put the
subscribe info.
Lynda
----------
from almost all the states and several countries on the list. The kidlets
love it and have a map showing where they have gotten cards from.
[email protected]
This link will get you to the owner as I don't remember where I put the
subscribe info.
Lynda
----------
> From: Sharon J Holden <kickaboo@...>
>
> I am new to the list, have 8 kids, 3 still schooling, we only removed the
> 3 youngest boys from public school last spring, I believe we are
> unschooling, I make sure plenty of educational oportunities arrise and we
> have a large variety of resourses available, but I try to let the boys
> decide the direction to take and when and what they want to do. Right now
> we have decided to collect postcards and learn more about the places they
> come from and so I am asking for help from anyone willing to send
> postcards to my boys, we would like anything, but find the maps very
> interesting, we have some comic ones that relatives have sent and they
> have led to some interesting conversations about why and what made the
> artist draw them, so any thing except of course the things not for
> children would be acceptable, I will send the address if anyone is
> interested in helping us.
> Sharon
> ________________________________________________________________
> YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
> Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
> Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit:
> http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
>
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
>
> FREE ADVICE FROM REAL PEOPLE! Xpertsite has thousands of experts who
> are willing to answer your questions for FREE. Go to Xpertsite today
> and put your mind to rest.
> <a href=" http://clickme.onelist.com/ad/XpersiteCPC ">Click Here</a>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
[email protected]
Thea, I have 8 kids, 3 girls, age 27, 24, and 20 and 5 boys age 22, 18,
15, 11 and 8. The 15, 11 and 8 yo are the ones we are schooling at home.
We took the boys out of public school last spring because all of the boys
are dyslexic and the school just was not interested in trying anything
new to help them. The basic attitude was they will grow up to be garbage
men so why bother, I had a problem with this. If my child wants to be a
garbage man than ok, but no one has the right to tell him to. Erick, the
8 yo could not read, at all, barely recognized 1/2 of the alphabet and
they passed him to 2nd grade, when I objected they told me that he would
never be normal and they had to keep his self esteem up, he has no self
esteem problems and I have never met a "normal" person, the uniqueness is
what makes people interesting. Anyway that was what made my final
decision, I had been looking into it for 2 years, but to be honest did
not know if I was patient enough to give them the education they deserve,
now I wonder why it took me so long. They are so much happier and are
learning and no one calls them dummies, that happened alot in school. I
was lucky enough to have a sister in law that had homeschooled for 16
years to help me get started, our methods are very different, but she
helped me more than I can say, unfortunately she lives about a thousand
miles away so the day to day support is not there and she is a
traditionalist so the email is not her style, although I am slowly making
inroads there. My husband shares the learning disability of the boys and
he is a field mechanic and machinist so I am very aware that they can
succeed if they are given a good chance, he travels alot with his job and
now the kids and I go visit where he is working, the learning
opportunities are limitless and we learn together about the places we are
going to visit or want to visit. We play a game we call fantasy vacation,
we pick a place we want to go, learn as much as we can about it and plan
a vacation, we decide where we would stay, eat, go visit, what the
weather would be like, it is fun and I am learning as much as they do. I
am so sorry I did not have the courage to do this for my other kids, they
missed so much and so did I by trusting that the school knew best. I have
I have 11 grandchildren and will homeschool or help with most of them, it
has become a family commitment.
Sharon
________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
15, 11 and 8. The 15, 11 and 8 yo are the ones we are schooling at home.
We took the boys out of public school last spring because all of the boys
are dyslexic and the school just was not interested in trying anything
new to help them. The basic attitude was they will grow up to be garbage
men so why bother, I had a problem with this. If my child wants to be a
garbage man than ok, but no one has the right to tell him to. Erick, the
8 yo could not read, at all, barely recognized 1/2 of the alphabet and
they passed him to 2nd grade, when I objected they told me that he would
never be normal and they had to keep his self esteem up, he has no self
esteem problems and I have never met a "normal" person, the uniqueness is
what makes people interesting. Anyway that was what made my final
decision, I had been looking into it for 2 years, but to be honest did
not know if I was patient enough to give them the education they deserve,
now I wonder why it took me so long. They are so much happier and are
learning and no one calls them dummies, that happened alot in school. I
was lucky enough to have a sister in law that had homeschooled for 16
years to help me get started, our methods are very different, but she
helped me more than I can say, unfortunately she lives about a thousand
miles away so the day to day support is not there and she is a
traditionalist so the email is not her style, although I am slowly making
inroads there. My husband shares the learning disability of the boys and
he is a field mechanic and machinist so I am very aware that they can
succeed if they are given a good chance, he travels alot with his job and
now the kids and I go visit where he is working, the learning
opportunities are limitless and we learn together about the places we are
going to visit or want to visit. We play a game we call fantasy vacation,
we pick a place we want to go, learn as much as we can about it and plan
a vacation, we decide where we would stay, eat, go visit, what the
weather would be like, it is fun and I am learning as much as they do. I
am so sorry I did not have the courage to do this for my other kids, they
missed so much and so did I by trusting that the school knew best. I have
I have 11 grandchildren and will homeschool or help with most of them, it
has become a family commitment.
Sharon
________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
[email protected]
Buzz,
Thank you for the encouragement, I sent out another letter earlier that
explains why I feel it is so important to defend ones right to religion
even if it is not my belief, but thank you for caring how I felt even
though we may never be able to comminicate our beliefs to each other
enough to make a solid understanding, I can always use a new friend or an
old one for that matter.
Sharon
________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
Thank you for the encouragement, I sent out another letter earlier that
explains why I feel it is so important to defend ones right to religion
even if it is not my belief, but thank you for caring how I felt even
though we may never be able to comminicate our beliefs to each other
enough to make a solid understanding, I can always use a new friend or an
old one for that matter.
Sharon
________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
[email protected]
The address is:
David, Keith and Erick Holden
827 East "A" Street
Casper, Wyoming 82601
Thank you, the boys will love getting mail and the postcards are such a
fun project, if you would like a post card from our neck of the woods we
would be happy to send on, just say so on your post card and include your
return address and we will send one out.
Sharon
On Mon, 14 Feb 2000 11:49:44 EST JazBallard@... writes:
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
David, Keith and Erick Holden
827 East "A" Street
Casper, Wyoming 82601
Thank you, the boys will love getting mail and the postcards are such a
fun project, if you would like a post card from our neck of the woods we
would be happy to send on, just say so on your post card and include your
return address and we will send one out.
Sharon
On Mon, 14 Feb 2000 11:49:44 EST JazBallard@... writes:
> From: JazBallard@...------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Sharon please send your address..I would love to send some postcards
> your
> way..
> you can post your address to me directly thru my
> email..jazballard@.....if you perfer not to post completely to
> the list...
> Eileen
>
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor
> ----------------------------
>
> FREE ADVICE FROM REAL PEOPLE! Xpertsite has thousands of experts who
> are willing to answer your questions for FREE. Go to Xpertsite
> today
> and put your mind to rest.
> <a href=" http://clickme.onelist.com/ad/XpersiteCPC ">Click Here</a>
>
>
>________________________________________________________________
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
>
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
[email protected]
When they find our we are in a minority religious group and homeschool
as well....you can just see "fringe lunatic" in their eyes as they size
me up and shake their heads at the fate of my poor children. It sure
would be nice to get some POSITIVE reinforcement for a change.
Oh Nanci, it sure is nice to know that I'm not the only one feeling
this way. As I posted before , my son has been diagnosed ADHD, and I
can really see the difference in him when he's been around negative
people. It's really hard to be positive all the time , but I do try to
for my son's sake. After his weekly court-ordered visits with my birth
vehicle, he is very negative, argumentative, and just plain hard to be
around. It really makes me wonder what kind of garbage she's filling
his head with. On the other hand, he's with his father every weekend,
and he never comes home with this crappy attitude. We both use positive
reinforcements with him and I do believe that makes a difference. Every
one needs a pat on the back every now and then. I too have very
different religious beliefs, and because of that my birth vehicle has
convinced most of my extended family that I'm brainwashed. Just wait
til they find out we're unschooling !! No pat on the back for me !!
Sus
as well....you can just see "fringe lunatic" in their eyes as they size
me up and shake their heads at the fate of my poor children. It sure
would be nice to get some POSITIVE reinforcement for a change.
Oh Nanci, it sure is nice to know that I'm not the only one feeling
this way. As I posted before , my son has been diagnosed ADHD, and I
can really see the difference in him when he's been around negative
people. It's really hard to be positive all the time , but I do try to
for my son's sake. After his weekly court-ordered visits with my birth
vehicle, he is very negative, argumentative, and just plain hard to be
around. It really makes me wonder what kind of garbage she's filling
his head with. On the other hand, he's with his father every weekend,
and he never comes home with this crappy attitude. We both use positive
reinforcements with him and I do believe that makes a difference. Every
one needs a pat on the back every now and then. I too have very
different religious beliefs, and because of that my birth vehicle has
convinced most of my extended family that I'm brainwashed. Just wait
til they find out we're unschooling !! No pat on the back for me !!
Sus
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/27/2000 11:54:35 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
cmas100@... writes:
a point of telling DS a subject we covered when he'd ask a question/find an
answer. We'd explore something, go for a walk, make cookies, whatever and
I'd say, gee, we can count that as our PE/math/science/language arts/ what
ever for today. He'd stop and smile and acknowledge the coolness of the
whole process and go about his business. Now DS, age 12, can rattle off the
'subjects' we've been pursuing with the best of them.
I didn't do this constantly, just often enough to start bringing it to his
awareness. Now, we'll talk about or explore something and he'll say, 'Gee, I
guess we just did (fill in the blank), huh mom?'
When others ask him what he's learning they usually aren't interested enough
to find out HOW he's learning it. In fact, I don't think we've ever had
anyone spend enough time and attention to his answer to have him explain what
sorts of things we are doing. Some of them get to hear the beginnings of an
explanation, but then they are ready to be off on different topics because
they were only being polite to begin with.
Hang in there. It's okay to feel like you aren't accomplishing anything
sometimes. Looking back, it seems to me that the first through third grade
age was the hardest to resist the need to school at home. That's when all
the other kids are starting school and learning to read and all. That's when
I still had a sense of 'you know, it's not too late, you could change your
mind and enroll him in PS and he'd be able to catch up'. Ugh! After you are
past age 8 or 9 and see that kidlets really are learning something from their
daily activities, it gets a lot easier. I felt much easier when my youngster
started reading his older brother's books. There is 10 yrs between the two
of them and younger DS wasn't at all afraid to read older DS's books from
about age 7 or 8. He didn't understand all of the material, but he was up to
the challenge of trying. He read rather major novels from start to finish.
He understood the words, just missed many of the implications. Now as he
re-reads those same books, he tells me all about the things he didn't
understand then that he understands now. It's a great experience for him to
realize that review never hurt anyone and that we sometimes understand things
much better with more experience. (Doesn't hurt mom's credibility, either,
for him to realize that life experience often brings greater understanding.
heheheh)
Anyway, that was a turning point for me.
Out of self defense, DS has learned to tell people that everyone learns at a
different pace. He has a cousin that loved to tell him how stupid DS was
because he didn't go to school. (We heard a lot of other PS propaganda from
that kid, too. I was amazed to hear the exact same words coming out of his
mouth as the phrases spouted by NEA. I don't know whether it was his father
explaining why the cousins couldn't homeschool or the PS teacher defending
her job. But that's sort of a different issue.)
We waited and watched. Pretty soon it became obvious that there were topics
DS was covering which his cousin had no clue about. When cousin realized DS
knew more about different things, DS simply pointed out to him that everyone
learns things at a different pace. Just because we have not formally covered
a topic before the cousins, does not mean we'll never learn it and ps cousins
aren't required to keep pace with DS, either.
(I over heard the conversation that day and was bursting with pride at the
way DS handled his over bearing and bossy cousin. I'll probably burn in hell
for that one, but it was worth it! <eg>)
Enjoy your kids. If you need more structure to your schedule, do what you
need to for your family, setting bed times or nap times or story times and
dinner times, etc. But, don't feel you need to follow the ps schedule or
anyone else's, for that matter!
FWIW,
Eiraul
cmas100@... writes:
> My kids have been telling people that they doWe ran into that a lot. In order to correct the 'problem', I started making
> nothing for school. You can guess the reaction by all to that!!
a point of telling DS a subject we covered when he'd ask a question/find an
answer. We'd explore something, go for a walk, make cookies, whatever and
I'd say, gee, we can count that as our PE/math/science/language arts/ what
ever for today. He'd stop and smile and acknowledge the coolness of the
whole process and go about his business. Now DS, age 12, can rattle off the
'subjects' we've been pursuing with the best of them.
I didn't do this constantly, just often enough to start bringing it to his
awareness. Now, we'll talk about or explore something and he'll say, 'Gee, I
guess we just did (fill in the blank), huh mom?'
When others ask him what he's learning they usually aren't interested enough
to find out HOW he's learning it. In fact, I don't think we've ever had
anyone spend enough time and attention to his answer to have him explain what
sorts of things we are doing. Some of them get to hear the beginnings of an
explanation, but then they are ready to be off on different topics because
they were only being polite to begin with.
Hang in there. It's okay to feel like you aren't accomplishing anything
sometimes. Looking back, it seems to me that the first through third grade
age was the hardest to resist the need to school at home. That's when all
the other kids are starting school and learning to read and all. That's when
I still had a sense of 'you know, it's not too late, you could change your
mind and enroll him in PS and he'd be able to catch up'. Ugh! After you are
past age 8 or 9 and see that kidlets really are learning something from their
daily activities, it gets a lot easier. I felt much easier when my youngster
started reading his older brother's books. There is 10 yrs between the two
of them and younger DS wasn't at all afraid to read older DS's books from
about age 7 or 8. He didn't understand all of the material, but he was up to
the challenge of trying. He read rather major novels from start to finish.
He understood the words, just missed many of the implications. Now as he
re-reads those same books, he tells me all about the things he didn't
understand then that he understands now. It's a great experience for him to
realize that review never hurt anyone and that we sometimes understand things
much better with more experience. (Doesn't hurt mom's credibility, either,
for him to realize that life experience often brings greater understanding.
heheheh)
Anyway, that was a turning point for me.
Out of self defense, DS has learned to tell people that everyone learns at a
different pace. He has a cousin that loved to tell him how stupid DS was
because he didn't go to school. (We heard a lot of other PS propaganda from
that kid, too. I was amazed to hear the exact same words coming out of his
mouth as the phrases spouted by NEA. I don't know whether it was his father
explaining why the cousins couldn't homeschool or the PS teacher defending
her job. But that's sort of a different issue.)
We waited and watched. Pretty soon it became obvious that there were topics
DS was covering which his cousin had no clue about. When cousin realized DS
knew more about different things, DS simply pointed out to him that everyone
learns things at a different pace. Just because we have not formally covered
a topic before the cousins, does not mean we'll never learn it and ps cousins
aren't required to keep pace with DS, either.
(I over heard the conversation that day and was bursting with pride at the
way DS handled his over bearing and bossy cousin. I'll probably burn in hell
for that one, but it was worth it! <eg>)
Enjoy your kids. If you need more structure to your schedule, do what you
need to for your family, setting bed times or nap times or story times and
dinner times, etc. But, don't feel you need to follow the ps schedule or
anyone else's, for that matter!
FWIW,
Eiraul
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/27/00 11:54:34 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
cmas100@... writes:
<< I love the freedom of unschooling, but there is
also something chaotic about it and it is a very difficult concept to
explain to family & friends. My kids have been telling people that they do
nothing for school. You can guess the reaction by all to that!!
these questions. After a grocery shopping trip where the clerk asked
if they were in school and my dd said no we homeschool, and the clerk
said oh your mom teaches you? Dd says "no"? sorta like why would
you say that LOL. I just sort of laughed and said something like
we learn from the world around us blah blah. Anyhow after that I
talked to my dd. I said that some kids go to school and are taught
by teachers. I said you are at home and we learn from everything
around us. We go places and do things and everywhere we go
(and when we don't go) and everyday we learn something. We don't
have to be in a school to learn things. She really took to that and
now is apt to say if questioned that we go places and do things
or that we learn everywhere we go....
I love www.unschooling.com -- they have great essays and message
boards. One of the boards is titled, Dealing with Reluctance with sub
folders for spouses, family, friends. ..this might give you some suggestions
on how to deal with others.
Kathy
cmas100@... writes:
<< I love the freedom of unschooling, but there is
also something chaotic about it and it is a very difficult concept to
explain to family & friends. My kids have been telling people that they do
nothing for school. You can guess the reaction by all to that!!
>>You might want to coach them a bit on how to respond to some of
these questions. After a grocery shopping trip where the clerk asked
if they were in school and my dd said no we homeschool, and the clerk
said oh your mom teaches you? Dd says "no"? sorta like why would
you say that LOL. I just sort of laughed and said something like
we learn from the world around us blah blah. Anyhow after that I
talked to my dd. I said that some kids go to school and are taught
by teachers. I said you are at home and we learn from everything
around us. We go places and do things and everywhere we go
(and when we don't go) and everyday we learn something. We don't
have to be in a school to learn things. She really took to that and
now is apt to say if questioned that we go places and do things
or that we learn everywhere we go....
I love www.unschooling.com -- they have great essays and message
boards. One of the boards is titled, Dealing with Reluctance with sub
folders for spouses, family, friends. ..this might give you some suggestions
on how to deal with others.
Kathy
aworthen
----- Original Message -----
From: <Natrlmama@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2000 2:31 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] (unknown)
> In a message dated 9/27/00 11:54:34 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
> cmas100@... writes:
>
My kids have been telling people that they do
> nothing for school. You can guess the reaction by all to that!!
Funny, I remember that being my standard answer everyday of my 12 years of
ps. I also think it is the standard answer of lots of kids that go to
school. I don't know why it bothers people more to hear ir from
homeschoolers.
Amy
Mom to Samantha, Dana, and Casey
The World Is Our Classroom
[email protected]
In a message dated 00-10-24 17:43:11 EDT, you write:
<< The
father was allegedly outrageously abusive to the children and when the
authorities where called by a public school teacher, that's when the father
took them out of ps and homeschooled them. >>
I used to teach 9th grade, though, and I saw abuse. Sometimes kids would be
kept home for a few days until the bruises went away. The first time I was
in a big discussion about homeschooling (at a playgroup) someone there said
"WHY would the schools be so [resistent, or worried or something]" and I said
"They're afraid the kids are being butt-f-----" and although it was a *VERY*
indelicate thing to say, many people who have not done public education or
social work fail to consider that.
For kids who are being abused, public school is their safe-line to
civilization and the possibility of finding out that what's going on at their
house isn't okay, and that there might be assistance available.
When we decided to homeschool, I talked to a couple of adult friends (both
single men, and we had boys) and told them that if my boys EVER came to them
complaining of abuse--physical, sexual, ANYTHING--they were to take the boys'
side against us if necessary and do whatever was right to do. Then I told
the boys "If you ever think what's going on here isn't right and you're
afraid to talk to me or dad, go to Paul or Jeff and they will help you.
Paul's moved out of state. I should probably renew this deal. On the other
hand, now that the kids are 8, 11 and 14 (the youngest is a girl) and I knew
them and their communications better, I don't think it's as necessary. But
because of this conversation, I should probably arrange for another emergency
outlet. It's educational for the friends I solicit for the job too.
Sandra
<< The
father was allegedly outrageously abusive to the children and when the
authorities where called by a public school teacher, that's when the father
took them out of ps and homeschooled them. >>
I used to teach 9th grade, though, and I saw abuse. Sometimes kids would be
kept home for a few days until the bruises went away. The first time I was
in a big discussion about homeschooling (at a playgroup) someone there said
"WHY would the schools be so [resistent, or worried or something]" and I said
"They're afraid the kids are being butt-f-----" and although it was a *VERY*
indelicate thing to say, many people who have not done public education or
social work fail to consider that.
For kids who are being abused, public school is their safe-line to
civilization and the possibility of finding out that what's going on at their
house isn't okay, and that there might be assistance available.
When we decided to homeschool, I talked to a couple of adult friends (both
single men, and we had boys) and told them that if my boys EVER came to them
complaining of abuse--physical, sexual, ANYTHING--they were to take the boys'
side against us if necessary and do whatever was right to do. Then I told
the boys "If you ever think what's going on here isn't right and you're
afraid to talk to me or dad, go to Paul or Jeff and they will help you.
Paul's moved out of state. I should probably renew this deal. On the other
hand, now that the kids are 8, 11 and 14 (the youngest is a girl) and I knew
them and their communications better, I don't think it's as necessary. But
because of this conversation, I should probably arrange for another emergency
outlet. It's educational for the friends I solicit for the job too.
Sandra
[email protected]
Kathy,
Hello! Thank you for thinking about me. Yeah, we're okay. Things are settling
down a bit.
DD is still doing her thing. I am still biting my tongue off. I have kind of
cracked down on the watching t.v. thing though for as long as it takes to get
certain things down around the house. My thought is if she thinks she is
going to watch t.v. all day and not pick up her room or take a shower or help
with the little things, then she has another thing coming!LOL! She dug her
heels in for a few days and we had some battles but they were battles we
needed. Sometimes it takes a mother to remove herself from a situation to
gain some control. My daughter was of the mindset that since she didnt have
to go to school then she didnt have anybody to listen to. I went along with
that for a while , but a person can only take so much of back talk and what
shall I call it? ummm..........very subtle noncompliance. I really dont mean
that she should bow to my every whim but I do expect S.O.M.E. respect. I
really am an easy going person and dont expect a whole lot.
I do have to admit to looking in to some online curriculums like Conlara and
Laurel Springs. Im just so confused right now. I think. I keep going back and
forth with it. I have forced days out of the house for Riding Lessons that
she does enjoy and errands and stuff.I find trying to keep her busy has made
her cut down on her eating out of being bored. Her attitude has definately
shown a turn around on the days we just spend out of the house together.
On a better note , the family has faded off into the distance for now. I
havent heard anything else about it. Maybe the holidays? Maybe they got the
picture? (probably not).
Anyway Thank You for thinking about me , that made me feel good.
I hope you had a great Thanksgiving.
Tamie
Hello! Thank you for thinking about me. Yeah, we're okay. Things are settling
down a bit.
DD is still doing her thing. I am still biting my tongue off. I have kind of
cracked down on the watching t.v. thing though for as long as it takes to get
certain things down around the house. My thought is if she thinks she is
going to watch t.v. all day and not pick up her room or take a shower or help
with the little things, then she has another thing coming!LOL! She dug her
heels in for a few days and we had some battles but they were battles we
needed. Sometimes it takes a mother to remove herself from a situation to
gain some control. My daughter was of the mindset that since she didnt have
to go to school then she didnt have anybody to listen to. I went along with
that for a while , but a person can only take so much of back talk and what
shall I call it? ummm..........very subtle noncompliance. I really dont mean
that she should bow to my every whim but I do expect S.O.M.E. respect. I
really am an easy going person and dont expect a whole lot.
I do have to admit to looking in to some online curriculums like Conlara and
Laurel Springs. Im just so confused right now. I think. I keep going back and
forth with it. I have forced days out of the house for Riding Lessons that
she does enjoy and errands and stuff.I find trying to keep her busy has made
her cut down on her eating out of being bored. Her attitude has definately
shown a turn around on the days we just spend out of the house together.
On a better note , the family has faded off into the distance for now. I
havent heard anything else about it. Maybe the holidays? Maybe they got the
picture? (probably not).
Anyway Thank You for thinking about me , that made me feel good.
I hope you had a great Thanksgiving.
Tamie
Kathryn B Cauley
Tamie,
We had a great Thanksgiving! We spent much needed time with family. We
played lots of games, which is one of my favorite things. We are in the
process of packing. We are moving to Bryan from Houston. Not far but
stilll the same work. It means I have to clean piles and go through
things, YUK! Anyway, good for you. Hang in there it sounds like it is
getting better. I have a young dd (4). I have learned to say "O.K. we're
going now" and not give her the opportunity to reject. I know she is
going to get something out of it (good, or not) and so we just go and do
and sometimes she fusses and I think Oh well. And then she has a good
time. go figure. She gets lots of choices on things but sometimes she
just has to go along with the family/schedule, in good humor or not.
I'm not sure how I would handle my family if they had a family discussion
about me and my decisions (i'm sure they do but they are not yet brave
enough to say it to me). I find that I avoid the subject just so we
don't go there and I don't have to explain our lives to them. They just
think we are weird, or maybe they just don't want to think about it?
Kathy
mother needing a vacation, again
________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
We had a great Thanksgiving! We spent much needed time with family. We
played lots of games, which is one of my favorite things. We are in the
process of packing. We are moving to Bryan from Houston. Not far but
stilll the same work. It means I have to clean piles and go through
things, YUK! Anyway, good for you. Hang in there it sounds like it is
getting better. I have a young dd (4). I have learned to say "O.K. we're
going now" and not give her the opportunity to reject. I know she is
going to get something out of it (good, or not) and so we just go and do
and sometimes she fusses and I think Oh well. And then she has a good
time. go figure. She gets lots of choices on things but sometimes she
just has to go along with the family/schedule, in good humor or not.
I'm not sure how I would handle my family if they had a family discussion
about me and my decisions (i'm sure they do but they are not yet brave
enough to say it to me). I find that I avoid the subject just so we
don't go there and I don't have to explain our lives to them. They just
think we are weird, or maybe they just don't want to think about it?
Kathy
mother needing a vacation, again
________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
mary krzyzanowski
hi amy,
we live in farmington, near canandaigua.
mary
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
we live in farmington, near canandaigua.
mary
>From: Amy Spang <aspang1@...>_________________________________________________________________
>Reply-To: [email protected]
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] (unknown)
>Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 07:49:25 -0500
>
>Mary,
>I live in West Shokan, NY, which is 15 minutes away from Woodstock (of
>the Festival fame). I am about 2 hrs. north of NYCity. I have a brother
>who lived in Rochester. Are you right in the city, or in outskirts?
>Amy in NY
>________________________________________________________________
>GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
>Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
>Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
>http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
Elizabeth Hill
>He is alsoMy son also got a big reading boost from his love of Pokemon. We ate at
>a self-taught reader and has the freedom to read what he wants when
>he wants (oh my, Pokemon has a huge role in his love of reading and
>this really isn't open for comments!!).
Burger King a lot when the Pokemon toys were offered there. We got a
couple of posters when the toys ran out. My son invented a game that he
loved where he told me the first three letters of a Poke-creature's name
(picking one from the poster) and I had to guess the name. We played this
a lot, at his request, and I'm sure it was great pre-reading practice for
him. (He was reading pretty well a few months after this.)
Betsy
Bonnie Painter
To me, it sounds like you are doing great! Considering the girls have only
been out of school for a short while, it's amazing that they are filling up
their own time so beautifully. From what I've read on this and other lists,
it usually takes kids some time to de-school before they begin to unschool.
It sounds like your girls are naturals.
Congratulations on the new baby and welcome to the list!
Bonnie - Mac (6) and Mara (4)
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
been out of school for a short while, it's amazing that they are filling up
their own time so beautifully. From what I've read on this and other lists,
it usually takes kids some time to de-school before they begin to unschool.
It sounds like your girls are naturals.
Congratulations on the new baby and welcome to the list!
Bonnie - Mac (6) and Mara (4)
>From: hammondcentral@..._________________________________________________________________
>Reply-To: [email protected]
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] (unknown)
>Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 18:31:25 -0000
>
>Hello, all:
>
>I am new to this list. I am a sahm/wahm from Michigan (Detroit area)
>and I just took my girls out of public school in January. My daughters
>are almost 11 years old (12 in April) and almost 9 years old (9 in
>May). I also have an almost 7 week old son.
>
>I noticed, after reading some of the postings, that some of you have
>daughters who are my kid's ages. Would any of your girls want to
>become e-mail pals with my girls? They have been asking me every day
>about finding some pen pals who also home school.
>
>I fell into this unschooling thing --- I was pregnant, miserable and
>tired, so they pretty much guided themselves to what they wanted to
>learn when I first took them out of public school in January. Then,
>when my son was born, well ... you all know what it's like having a
>newborn --- so they kept pursuing their own interests because of the
>demands of the baby.
>
>This unschooling thing seems very natural --- just like it felt when
>they were very small and I taught them throughout the day --- or they
>investigated the world around them on their own. However, on the other
>hand, I feel like I should be giving them more structure and so do
>they --- they want worksheets and assignments. I bought some
>worksheet books and they use them occasionally. But mostly they love
>to play Barbie's, make doll clothes, draw, write, read, do computer
>games or play with Lego's. Hmmm. I'm just new to this and trying to
>adjust ...
>
>Any advice? I'm thinking I'm doing okay and should just keep doing
>what I'm doing, but then the guilt sets in.
>
>Thanks,
>Nancy from Michigan
>
>
>
>
>
>
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
Nancy
Bonnie:
Thanks! Yes, they are unschooling very naturally. It's the way I
raised them before they were old enough to go to ps and it's the way
they have always spent their free time. Somehow, someway, these
qualities stayed intact during their ps (and two years in Catholic
school) experience.
The biggest reason I took them out of ps is because they were bored.
Now, they have the whole world at their fingertips all day long with
all of the resources we have around here --- computer, CD-ROMs,
library, video ... not to mention time to explore their creative
ideas
and thoughts on a daily basis!
~Nancy
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "Bonnie Painter" <bonniepainter@h...>
wrote:
Thanks! Yes, they are unschooling very naturally. It's the way I
raised them before they were old enough to go to ps and it's the way
they have always spent their free time. Somehow, someway, these
qualities stayed intact during their ps (and two years in Catholic
school) experience.
The biggest reason I took them out of ps is because they were bored.
Now, they have the whole world at their fingertips all day long with
all of the resources we have around here --- computer, CD-ROMs,
library, video ... not to mention time to explore their creative
ideas
and thoughts on a daily basis!
~Nancy
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "Bonnie Painter" <bonniepainter@h...>
wrote:
> To me, it sounds like you are doing great! Considering the girlshave only
> been out of school for a short while, it's amazing that they arefilling up
> their own time so beautifully. From what I've read on this andother lists,
> it usually takes kids some time to de-school before they begin tounschool.
> It sounds like your girls are naturals.area)
>
> Congratulations on the new baby and welcome to the list!
>
> Bonnie - Mac (6) and Mara (4)
>
>
> >From: hammondcentral@e...
> >Reply-To: Unschooling-dotcom@y...
> >To: Unschooling-dotcom@y...
> >Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] (unknown)
> >Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 18:31:25 -0000
> >
> >Hello, all:
> >
> >I am new to this list. I am a sahm/wahm from Michigan (Detroit
> >and I just took my girls out of public school in January. Mydaughters
> >are almost 11 years old (12 in April) and almost 9 years old (9 inhave
> >May). I also have an almost 7 week old son.
> >
> >I noticed, after reading some of the postings, that some of you
> >daughters who are my kid's ages. Would any of your girls want today
> >become e-mail pals with my girls? They have been asking me every
> >about finding some pen pals who also home school.and
> >
> >I fell into this unschooling thing --- I was pregnant, miserable
> >tired, so they pretty much guided themselves to what they wanted tothe
> >learn when I first took them out of public school in January. Then,
> >when my son was born, well ... you all know what it's like having a
> >newborn --- so they kept pursuing their own interests because of
> >demands of the baby.when
> >
> >This unschooling thing seems very natural --- just like it felt
> >they were very small and I taught them throughout the day --- orthey
> >investigated the world around them on their own. However, on theother
> >hand, I feel like I should be giving them more structure and so dolove
> >they --- they want worksheets and assignments. I bought some
> >worksheet books and they use them occasionally. But mostly they
> >to play Barbie's, make doll clothes, draw, write, read, do computer
> >games or play with Lego's. Hmmm. I'm just new to this and trying to
> >adjust ...
> >
> >Any advice? I'm thinking I'm doing okay and should just keep doing
> >what I'm doing, but then the guilt sets in.
> >
> >Thanks,
> >Nancy from Michigan
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
psam ordener
> Nice to see you on this list also! I've learned from you on theIt's pretty much hands-off. We talk about what he wants to do with his life
> Tagmax list, where I lurk. I joined this list a couple of days ago,
> to learn more of unschooling. I have 13yo and 5 yo daughters. I'ld
> like to hear more of your approach with your 13 yo --
and I get him to tell me what he needs to do to reach that goal. Then I
look for materials that might help and get him to check them out.
Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. He's taken every programming
class I've found for him, and he loves Japanese (with a tutor). He's crazy
about Odyssey of the Mind and the Stock Market Game (I classify those as
critical thinking and economics) but refused to participate on the
homeschool debate team. Loves chemistry and physics, refuses to study
biology. Reads voraciously, so I make sure there are plenty of books
available to him at home, and we visit the library a couple of times a week.
I'm not sure where he's going with this - his stated goal is to become a
game designer, but I haven't seen any evidence of games in progress. Still,
he's learning, he's happy, he's alive (and there was a time I wasn't sure
he'd see his 9th birthday). I expect some college, somewhere, will be happy
to have him.
psam
psamo@...
Motherhood - not just a job, it's an Adventure!
Heather Woodward
I've seen this before - and I actually liked it - It amused me ;) I think it's meant as a play on words... taste = lick and religion = witch. I don't know if it was put out by those who practice Wicca - or if it offends them...
Heather
Heather
----- Original Message -----
From: Stacy Finch
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, March 25, 2002 2:25 PM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] (unknown)
I am just wondering what significance the phrase at the bottom of this
message has "Get a Taste of Religion:
>~LICK A WITCH~
Stacy
>Message: 15 Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 11:04:51 -0500 From: "Cleopatra Rojas"
>Subject: Re: Checking in/checking out
>
>
>Hi all, Jacli here :) I've been relatively quiet for quite a while. Going
>through too much physical turmoil to get embroiled on the stuff on the list
>too. But Helen's message struck me. I didn't appreciate her method but I
>understood her madness.
>
>The plain fact is that we seem to have cycles on this list. The good, the
>bad and oh yes, the ugly.
>
>We have moments when we shine. When we all come together to help one
>another question and answer our collective approaches to schooling,
>unschooling and parenting in general. These are the moments when we -each
>of us- contribute just a little something, a little bit of our own flavor
>and when taken in create a masterpiece.
>
>Then we have moments when we get a little thoughtless or insensitive.
>Perhaps too sensitive is what I should say. Moments when for just a New
>York minute we let the bad in and become JUDGEMENTAL.
>
>That's okay. This list is full of moms, dads, teachers, leaders and since
>we're all human on this list, the occasional screw-ups. But we acknowledge,
>apologize and move on. And thank goodness for the occasional screw up. They
>remind us to think before we speak, to consider and reconsider the way we
>treat or mistreat others, such consideration is probably a big asset for a
>group of folks attempting to guide their young-ins and deschool themselves
>at the same time.
>
>The problem is when the Ugly sneaks it's ugly face in. Ahh, the moments
>when we tear down instead of buildup. Then we go back in and do it again.
>The long, long debates on whether so and so said what they said they said
>and so forth. Usually followed by people upset about all the people saying
>what was or was not said and then the comments about how people should go
>and say things somewhere else.
>
>This is not new for us. But it is shameful. Because when we are good, we
>are AWESOME! When we shine it is because, as a group we encourage, support
>and unite.
>
>I do not care for the way Helen responded to the UGLY. But I do think it
>came from an emotional place of frustration and disappointment that it had
>come back again. And let's face it, when folks start telling other folks to
>get on other lists, UGLY has come back in a big way.
>
>Shame on us. Do you know what I do when the ugly comes? When the first
>whiff of ugly has come I try to ignore it by becoming real friendly with my
>delete button. But at times like this, times when UGLY has come back all
>the way and brought friends, I leave. That's right. I've been off this list
>several times and I'm about to do it again. And that's okay too. Because
>the true feeling of this list is strong enough to survive even the ugly and
>the disappearance of one or two faces. Ugly is like a fire and if we all
>just stop feeding the flames IT WILL GO AWAY.
>
>Sooner or later The Good will come back and when it does I and the others
>who have already quietly slipped away for a bit will come back. I just hope
>in the meantime that we haven't already permanently alienated some of the
>wonderful people on this list who maybe don't understand our ups and downs.
>The list will survive, but it could come back and bloom and thrive if only
>we would all work just a little harder to stop feeding the ugly and start
>working The Good.
>
>Well, just my two cents, bye all, Jacli :)
>
> >Message: 1 > Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 11:58:57 -0800 > From: Helen Hegener
> >Subject: Checking in/checking out > >Dear friends and listmembers, >
> >It's a major disappointment to see this list fall back into the same
> >kind of downward spiral we experienced a few weeks (or was it >months?)
>ago. >... It was truly discouraging to see the disparaging remarks >about
>our magazine in the middle of this discussion ... > To see our magazine
>called into question >because of what someone who happens to write for us
>does on this list >was probably the final straw for me. >I'll be blunt. I
>do not have the time nor the interest in being >involved with the kinds of
>dynamics I've read here in the last few >hours.... > For that reason, I am
>removing all >references to HEM from this list, turning this list over to
>the >moderators, unsubscribing, and getting on with what needs doing in my
> >life. I wish you all the best in finding appropriate resolutions. >
> >Helen ____________________________________________________________ _ Get
>a Taste of Religion: ~LICK A WITCH~
_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Heather Woodward
The answer to her question - Does homeschooling your children mean that you cannot also be a rocket scienctist?? Come - on now - we are all very good at multitasking :) and if you put off being a full fledged rocket scientist until your children are grown - think about how much you will have matured your skill by that time :)
This woman bugs me -
Heather
This woman bugs me -
Heather
----- Original Message -----
From: wanda Temple
To: [email protected]
Cc: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2002 10:14 PM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] (unknown)
Evidently Marilyn vos Savant received numerous letters
from happy
homeschoolers, but sorry, folks, she's not convinced.
She says we
didn't answer the question she asked. Here's an
excerpt from her
latest response on Parade's website:
"...Many home-schoolers described how well their kids
are doing and
their high hopes for them, but almost no one addressed
my concern
that a large percentage of the kids would never use
their educations
if they became home-schoolers themselves. Gifted
violinists would
never be heard in a concert hall; great leaders would
never be able
to change society; brilliant scientists would never
have a shot at
curing cancer.
Here's a question to ask yourself: Would you want to
home-school your
sons and then watch them become home-schooling parents
themselves
instead of having careers? This is a serious
philosophical issue: If
you stay at home and teach your child rocket science,
and he stays at
home and teaches his child rocket science, and he
stays at home and
teaches his child rocket science, when does anyone
ever become a
rocket scientist? In short, home-schooling is easy to
recommend for
certain individuals, but hard to recommend for
society..." (e-mail:
marilyn@...)
Heres my responce to her question : Let me know what
you guys think ..
Marilyn,
This is in responce to your homeschool questions ...
I have been homeschooling for 2 years now and I love
it ... Someone once asked me what hopes i had for my
daughter when she grows up ...I hope for her to find
and have faith in God ,to have a wonderful husband
,and a happy long life ,Then the question came about
her career ,Or to homeschool her kids. I hope that
she does homeschool her children !!! I hope that i
have installed in her that children are the most
important part of our lives ..That a child is a gift
from God and that it is our job to raise that child
and to take care of them to teach them about God
...Not to push them off one someone else to raise ,or
send them off for some one to teach them that man came
from apes....It is our "career "to raise our
children. It is more rewarding then any paying JOB
there is out there ...As far as my daughter using her
gifts or being a leader. We as homeschool parents do
all that. We teach our children what we know, we share
our gifts with them, we lead them in the direction
they want to go. We do not force them to think one way
or another. They are free to think on their own, not
what someone else tells them that it is the way to
think. That someone elses ideas are better then
theirs.. We look and learn at all angles, not just one
sided views . To answer your question, I would be
very proud if my daughter or sons grows up to
homeschool their children .
Thank you ,
Wanda In SC.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
The flaw in Marilyn's argument is that she assumes that students are limited
to becoming that which their teachers are, in this instance, homeschooling
parents.
I am a homeschooling parent, and I am also a practicing attorney with a
flourishing practice in Palm Beach County, Florida.
The bottom line is that the public school system, irrespective of what
Marilyn and the politicians say, has crumbled. Those parents who care enough
about their children's education to dedicate otherwise "spare" time to
accompany their children on a homeschooling adventure should be lauded.
Marilyn also seems to place more value on rocket scientists than she does on
educators.
I do not want my son or daughters to grow up to be homeschooling parents.
Nor do I want them to be rocket scientists. I want them to learn to love
learning, to grow into themselves, to examine their lives, to question
everything, to make their own ways, to be self-confident and self-reliant,
and to call me at least once a week (smile).
If my son wants to be a doctor, or if my daughter wants to be a writer, then
I will support them in that endeavour. If they have children and are
concerned about the state of public (or private) (or standard) education at
that time, and they choose to teach their children at home, then I will be
excited for my grandchildren, that they will embark on the education of a
lifetime and will learn for learning's sake.
Marilyn is wrong to assume that homeschoolers are not valuable to society, or
that homeschooling breeds only homeschoolers. She is right to say, however,
that homeschooling is not necessarily a good idea for society at large. No
matter how much we homeschoolers enjoy the journey, it is time-intensive and,
at times, exhausting. Not every parent is eager to assist, coach, watch, or
take pleasure in the independent education of a child. Society is fortunate,
however, that some parents are eager to do so.
So, I think that Marilyn is right, but for the wrong reasons. She has lost
sight of the fact that the goal of education is education. It seeks only
itself. She fails to understand that a rocket scientist can also be a
homeschooling parent. And that a homeschooling parent, in and of itself, is
the most wonderful co-teacher any future rocket scientist could have.
I do not intend to respond to Marilyn, though. I am too busy watching my
children flourish and practicing law to worry about what the self-styled
"smartest woman in the world" has to say on a topic about which she knows
nothing. Perhaps some of our older homeschooled students can craft responses
to her along the lines of: "I'm a homeschooled student, and when I grow up I
want to be a homeschooling rocket scientist."
Kate Davis
Law Office of Kathleen M.P. Davis, Chartered
1400 Centrepark Blvd., Suite 950
West Palm Beach, FL 33401
(v) 561.656.4443
(f) 561.656.4344
In a message dated 4/3/2002 10:16:56 PM Eastern Standard Time,
wt3mom@... writes:
<< Evidently Marilyn vos Savant received numerous letters
from happy
homeschoolers, but sorry, folks, she's not convinced.
She says we
didn't answer the question she asked. Here's an
excerpt from her
latest response on Parade's website:
"...Many home-schoolers described how well their kids
are doing and
their high hopes for them, but almost no one addressed
my concern
that a large percentage of the kids would never use
their educations
if they became home-schoolers themselves. Gifted
violinists would
never be heard in a concert hall; great leaders would
never be able
to change society; brilliant scientists would never
have a shot at
curing cancer.
Here's a question to ask yourself: Would you want to
home-school your
sons and then watch them become home-schooling parents
themselves
instead of having careers? This is a serious
philosophical issue: If
you stay at home and teach your child rocket science,
and he stays at
home and teaches his child rocket science, and he
stays at home and
teaches his child rocket science, when does anyone
ever become a
rocket scientist? In short, home-schooling is easy to
recommend for
certain individuals, but hard to recommend for
society..." (e-mail:
marilyn@...)
Heres my responce to her question : Let me know what
you guys think ..
Marilyn,
This is in responce to your homeschool questions ...
I have been homeschooling for 2 years now and I love
it ... Someone once asked me what hopes i had for my
daughter when she grows up ...I hope for her to find
and have faith in God ,to have a wonderful husband
,and a happy long life ,Then the question came about
her career ,Or to homeschool her kids. I hope that
she does homeschool her children !!! I hope that i
have installed in her that children are the most
important part of our lives ..That a child is a gift
from God and that it is our job to raise that child
and to take care of them to teach them about God
...Not to push them off one someone else to raise ,or
send them off for some one to teach them that man came
from apes....It is our "career "to raise our
children. It is more rewarding then any paying JOB
there is out there ...As far as my daughter using her
gifts or being a leader. We as homeschool parents do
all that. We teach our children what we know, we share
our gifts with them, we lead them in the direction
they want to go. We do not force them to think one way
or another. They are free to think on their own, not
what someone else tells them that it is the way to
think. That someone elses ideas are better then
theirs.. We look and learn at all angles, not just one
sided views . To answer your question, I would be
very proud if my daughter or sons grows up to
homeschool their children .
Thank you ,
Wanda In SC.
to becoming that which their teachers are, in this instance, homeschooling
parents.
I am a homeschooling parent, and I am also a practicing attorney with a
flourishing practice in Palm Beach County, Florida.
The bottom line is that the public school system, irrespective of what
Marilyn and the politicians say, has crumbled. Those parents who care enough
about their children's education to dedicate otherwise "spare" time to
accompany their children on a homeschooling adventure should be lauded.
Marilyn also seems to place more value on rocket scientists than she does on
educators.
I do not want my son or daughters to grow up to be homeschooling parents.
Nor do I want them to be rocket scientists. I want them to learn to love
learning, to grow into themselves, to examine their lives, to question
everything, to make their own ways, to be self-confident and self-reliant,
and to call me at least once a week (smile).
If my son wants to be a doctor, or if my daughter wants to be a writer, then
I will support them in that endeavour. If they have children and are
concerned about the state of public (or private) (or standard) education at
that time, and they choose to teach their children at home, then I will be
excited for my grandchildren, that they will embark on the education of a
lifetime and will learn for learning's sake.
Marilyn is wrong to assume that homeschoolers are not valuable to society, or
that homeschooling breeds only homeschoolers. She is right to say, however,
that homeschooling is not necessarily a good idea for society at large. No
matter how much we homeschoolers enjoy the journey, it is time-intensive and,
at times, exhausting. Not every parent is eager to assist, coach, watch, or
take pleasure in the independent education of a child. Society is fortunate,
however, that some parents are eager to do so.
So, I think that Marilyn is right, but for the wrong reasons. She has lost
sight of the fact that the goal of education is education. It seeks only
itself. She fails to understand that a rocket scientist can also be a
homeschooling parent. And that a homeschooling parent, in and of itself, is
the most wonderful co-teacher any future rocket scientist could have.
I do not intend to respond to Marilyn, though. I am too busy watching my
children flourish and practicing law to worry about what the self-styled
"smartest woman in the world" has to say on a topic about which she knows
nothing. Perhaps some of our older homeschooled students can craft responses
to her along the lines of: "I'm a homeschooled student, and when I grow up I
want to be a homeschooling rocket scientist."
Kate Davis
Law Office of Kathleen M.P. Davis, Chartered
1400 Centrepark Blvd., Suite 950
West Palm Beach, FL 33401
(v) 561.656.4443
(f) 561.656.4344
In a message dated 4/3/2002 10:16:56 PM Eastern Standard Time,
wt3mom@... writes:
<< Evidently Marilyn vos Savant received numerous letters
from happy
homeschoolers, but sorry, folks, she's not convinced.
She says we
didn't answer the question she asked. Here's an
excerpt from her
latest response on Parade's website:
"...Many home-schoolers described how well their kids
are doing and
their high hopes for them, but almost no one addressed
my concern
that a large percentage of the kids would never use
their educations
if they became home-schoolers themselves. Gifted
violinists would
never be heard in a concert hall; great leaders would
never be able
to change society; brilliant scientists would never
have a shot at
curing cancer.
Here's a question to ask yourself: Would you want to
home-school your
sons and then watch them become home-schooling parents
themselves
instead of having careers? This is a serious
philosophical issue: If
you stay at home and teach your child rocket science,
and he stays at
home and teaches his child rocket science, and he
stays at home and
teaches his child rocket science, when does anyone
ever become a
rocket scientist? In short, home-schooling is easy to
recommend for
certain individuals, but hard to recommend for
society..." (e-mail:
marilyn@...)
Heres my responce to her question : Let me know what
you guys think ..
Marilyn,
This is in responce to your homeschool questions ...
I have been homeschooling for 2 years now and I love
it ... Someone once asked me what hopes i had for my
daughter when she grows up ...I hope for her to find
and have faith in God ,to have a wonderful husband
,and a happy long life ,Then the question came about
her career ,Or to homeschool her kids. I hope that
she does homeschool her children !!! I hope that i
have installed in her that children are the most
important part of our lives ..That a child is a gift
from God and that it is our job to raise that child
and to take care of them to teach them about God
...Not to push them off one someone else to raise ,or
send them off for some one to teach them that man came
from apes....It is our "career "to raise our
children. It is more rewarding then any paying JOB
there is out there ...As far as my daughter using her
gifts or being a leader. We as homeschool parents do
all that. We teach our children what we know, we share
our gifts with them, we lead them in the direction
they want to go. We do not force them to think one way
or another. They are free to think on their own, not
what someone else tells them that it is the way to
think. That someone elses ideas are better then
theirs.. We look and learn at all angles, not just one
sided views . To answer your question, I would be
very proud if my daughter or sons grows up to
homeschool their children .
Thank you ,
Wanda In SC.
>>
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/29/2002 6:06:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
zenmomma@... writes:
we don't have ice cream every day. Moreover, even if we did have ice cream
every day, I don't, personally, think it would be prudent to "allow" him to
have it every day. And I am comfortable with that decision. (And I cannot
even imagine what a judge in a child custody situation would do with this
fact pattern.) (No, wait, I can imagine what a judge would do, and I would
counsel a client to not give a child ice cream every day for breakfast,
unless a doctor said that same was necessary for health reasons.)
Also, no, I never said that he threw a tantrum as a result of being
ice-cream-deprived. And, no, that is not what this thread was about. This
thread was about watching Ben beat Sue with a baseball bat, and advising Ben
that Sue might be bad, and might be shrewish, and might have deserved to have
been hit with a baseball bat, BUT . . . and that's where I saw a logical
break, 'cuz there wasn't nothin' else to tell to Ben, or to correct Ben's
behaviour, or to protect Sue from another beating with the baseball bat.
And, finally, no: neither the question about ice cream nor the eating of ice
cream bothers me. Ben beating Sue with a baseball bat. THAT bothers me.
Kate Davis
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
zenmomma@... writes:
> >>I believe that he asks for ice cream because he really wants it, and notNothing would be the problem with him having ice cream everyday, except that
> >>because he thinks the question bugs me. In fact, the question doesn't
> bug
> >>me.>>
>
> So then I'm curious. What would be the problem with him having it everyday?
>
> Why does he need to throw a tantrum because you said no? (That was your
> original post, I think.) If the question doesn't bother you, is it the
> eating of ice cream for breakfast rather than desert that bothers you? The
> eating of ice cream rather than the breakfast you've already prepared? I'm
> not trying to start an argument BTW. I'm really interested in your answers
> and experiences. :o)
we don't have ice cream every day. Moreover, even if we did have ice cream
every day, I don't, personally, think it would be prudent to "allow" him to
have it every day. And I am comfortable with that decision. (And I cannot
even imagine what a judge in a child custody situation would do with this
fact pattern.) (No, wait, I can imagine what a judge would do, and I would
counsel a client to not give a child ice cream every day for breakfast,
unless a doctor said that same was necessary for health reasons.)
Also, no, I never said that he threw a tantrum as a result of being
ice-cream-deprived. And, no, that is not what this thread was about. This
thread was about watching Ben beat Sue with a baseball bat, and advising Ben
that Sue might be bad, and might be shrewish, and might have deserved to have
been hit with a baseball bat, BUT . . . and that's where I saw a logical
break, 'cuz there wasn't nothin' else to tell to Ben, or to correct Ben's
behaviour, or to protect Sue from another beating with the baseball bat.
And, finally, no: neither the question about ice cream nor the eating of ice
cream bothers me. Ben beating Sue with a baseball bat. THAT bothers me.
> >>>Well, I'm not Olivia or a TCSer (too rigid, and at times absurd forOkay. Cool!
> >>>me),but that doesn't mean I haven't found some value in thinking outside
>
> >>>the box on some of my formerlly held parenting beliefs. :o)>>>
>
> >>Yeah, me too.>>
>
> Cool! :o) Then let's keep on with this part of the discussion.
Kate Davis
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Mary
From: "Olga" <britcontoo@...>
<<In fact, he still gets a good bit of fruit from the baby food
aisle..LOL!>>
When Tara went off to preschool, I would pack her baby peaches as that was
one of the few things she ate that I could pack. She would tell the kids it
was a different kind of applesauce! She's perfectly "normal" now. Not to
worry!!
Mary B
<<In fact, he still gets a good bit of fruit from the baby food
aisle..LOL!>>
When Tara went off to preschool, I would pack her baby peaches as that was
one of the few things she ate that I could pack. She would tell the kids it
was a different kind of applesauce! She's perfectly "normal" now. Not to
worry!!
Mary B
Rebecca DeLong
Mary <mummy124@...> wrote:
<<<When Tara went off to preschool, I would pack her baby peaches as that was
one of the few things she ate that I could pack. She would tell the kids it
was a different kind of applesauce! She's perfectly "normal" now. Not to
worry!!>>>
My mom had a baby when I was in high school. I found out that I loved babyfood pears.
I used to take a jar with me to school everyday, for a year.
After a few funny looks and comments, a bunch of my friends started bringing jars of babyfood also, we each had our own fave,
I was kinda bummed that my kids never liked babyfood(all those pears!), they wanted real food, if it didn't look like what we were eating, they wouldn't eat it.
Although, they never fell for me eating the baby food out of the jar, they'd just pull food off my plate.
Rebecca
*~*Leave the crowd, look within, and let your dreams soar*~*
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
<<<When Tara went off to preschool, I would pack her baby peaches as that was
one of the few things she ate that I could pack. She would tell the kids it
was a different kind of applesauce! She's perfectly "normal" now. Not to
worry!!>>>
My mom had a baby when I was in high school. I found out that I loved babyfood pears.
I used to take a jar with me to school everyday, for a year.
After a few funny looks and comments, a bunch of my friends started bringing jars of babyfood also, we each had our own fave,
I was kinda bummed that my kids never liked babyfood(all those pears!), they wanted real food, if it didn't look like what we were eating, they wouldn't eat it.
Although, they never fell for me eating the baby food out of the jar, they'd just pull food off my plate.
Rebecca
*~*Leave the crowd, look within, and let your dreams soar*~*
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/12/03 2:09:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
elfmama@... writes:
times. Not sure it was the babyfood or the being spoon fed. I tried once with
each of them. They clamped their mouths shut and that was that. I would put
finger foods on their plates and they would pick at what they wanted. That is
how our "unfooding" started.
Pam G.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
elfmama@... writes:
> I was kinda bummed that my kids never liked babyfood(all those pears!),Mine would never eat babyfood either. Although I only tried a couple of
> they wanted real food, if it didn't look like what we were eating, they wouldn't
> eat it.
>
>
times. Not sure it was the babyfood or the being spoon fed. I tried once with
each of them. They clamped their mouths shut and that was that. I would put
finger foods on their plates and they would pick at what they wanted. That is
how our "unfooding" started.
Pam G.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Lari
Hello Chris -
My son is a little younger than yours - and I took him out of school just over a year ago. I was totally fed up as well. And like you, a working mother.
The first thing that the two of you will go through is breaking all the schooling habits - it was easier for my son than it has been for me! I think they say that it takes at least a month for every year your child has spent in school to get over it. Sure, there may be a long time that he sits in front of a TV seemingly not doing anything... various things like that. But what I came to realize is that without the pressures of school, my son slowly grew back his fascination with everything. He didn't have to squeeze his TV time in around all the demands of school - so, if he was interested in something, he could take the time to really explore it.
I still have moments of panic, thinking that I'm ruining his life... yes, he's there alone all day long while I work. But we talk to each other at least a dozen times a day. I really enjoy the calls that start "Mom! guess what I just heard???" and I get a lecture on weather patterns... or game design... or... or...
And our evenings and weekends are a blast! No having to stop to do homework... long discussions about whatever interests either of us... doing research together on the net... creating something... being free to explore who we are and what we want to grow to be!
Enjoy - it's never too late...
Take care,
Lari
-----Original Message-----
From: GothicLoungeLizard@...
Sent: Mar 12, 2004 7:20 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] (unknown)
Hello everyone. I'm a new member but have been watching the list off and on for a couple weeks now. I am a single mother of a 13 year old son who is finishing up seventh grade this year at public school. We are both completely fed up with the public school system and want out. I've been doing some reading/researching on homeschooling, which is how I discovered the concept of unschooling.
...
Thanks,
Chris
My son is a little younger than yours - and I took him out of school just over a year ago. I was totally fed up as well. And like you, a working mother.
The first thing that the two of you will go through is breaking all the schooling habits - it was easier for my son than it has been for me! I think they say that it takes at least a month for every year your child has spent in school to get over it. Sure, there may be a long time that he sits in front of a TV seemingly not doing anything... various things like that. But what I came to realize is that without the pressures of school, my son slowly grew back his fascination with everything. He didn't have to squeeze his TV time in around all the demands of school - so, if he was interested in something, he could take the time to really explore it.
I still have moments of panic, thinking that I'm ruining his life... yes, he's there alone all day long while I work. But we talk to each other at least a dozen times a day. I really enjoy the calls that start "Mom! guess what I just heard???" and I get a lecture on weather patterns... or game design... or... or...
And our evenings and weekends are a blast! No having to stop to do homework... long discussions about whatever interests either of us... doing research together on the net... creating something... being free to explore who we are and what we want to grow to be!
Enjoy - it's never too late...
Take care,
Lari
-----Original Message-----
From: GothicLoungeLizard@...
Sent: Mar 12, 2004 7:20 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] (unknown)
Hello everyone. I'm a new member but have been watching the list off and on for a couple weeks now. I am a single mother of a 13 year old son who is finishing up seventh grade this year at public school. We are both completely fed up with the public school system and want out. I've been doing some reading/researching on homeschooling, which is how I discovered the concept of unschooling.
...
Thanks,
Chris
Dawn Adams
Chris writes:
Hello everyone. I'm a new member but have been watching the list off and on for a couple weeks now.
I am completely intrigued by the idea and really wish that I had learned about it years ago when my son was still young. I am concerned that it may be too late now for it to be of value to him.
I am determined that this is going to be his last year in public school, but I'm facing several challenges, not the least of which is that I have to work full time to support us. I am desperately trying to find a way to make a living from home, which has always been my goal/dream anyway, but so far nothing viable has come to light. Even if my son has to stay home by himself during the day, I still feel that he will be better off than he currently is in the school system.
From the posts I've read thus far, it seems as though most of you either have younger children or started your children with homeschooling/unschooling at a young age. Do any of you have any advice about starting with a young teenager and how to move from a schooling type of mentality to a self-learning mentality? He is a very intelligent child, but he has absolutely no motivation to put it to use at this stage in his life. Considering some of the things I've been learning recently about the school system I can understand why, but I'd like to help him overcome that.
I guess the other major question I have is, is it possible to make this work for him if I'm not able to be home with him during the day? As much as I desperately want to be, I have to pay the bills somehow, so there is a strong possibility that it just won't work out that way.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Hello everyone. I'm a new member but have been watching the list off and on for a couple weeks now.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Welcome!
I am completely intrigued by the idea and really wish that I had learned about it years ago when my son was still young. I am concerned that it may be too late now for it to be of value to him.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Is it too late for you? Funny thing about unschooling, it involves the parents too, who are generally older than their children, and works changes into their lives. If I at 29 could embrace unschooling why on earth would it be too late for your son? It's never too late.
I am determined that this is going to be his last year in public school, but I'm facing several challenges, not the least of which is that I have to work full time to support us. I am desperately trying to find a way to make a living from home, which has always been my goal/dream anyway, but so far nothing viable has come to light. Even if my son has to stay home by himself during the day, I still feel that he will be better off than he currently is in the school system.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Just wondering...Why have him finish the year?
From the posts I've read thus far, it seems as though most of you either have younger children or started your children with homeschooling/unschooling at a young age. Do any of you have any advice about starting with a young teenager and how to move from a schooling type of mentality to a self-learning mentality? He is a very intelligent child, but he has absolutely no motivation to put it to use at this stage in his life. Considering some of the things I've been learning recently about the school system I can understand why, but I'd like to help him overcome that.
I guess the other major question I have is, is it possible to make this work for him if I'm not able to be home with him during the day? As much as I desperately want to be, I have to pay the bills somehow, so there is a strong possibility that it just won't work out that way.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Maybe that would even be better than having you home! No trying to prod him to do something...and no one there to distract him from that growing feeling of boredom and impatience that will grow in him as he deschools.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Lisa H
Hi Chris and welcome.
And good for you to have the courage to explore your options.
Have you and your son read The Teenage Liberation Handbook? Perhaps that may be helpful.
Also - try to connect with other homeschoolers in your area. People are usually very willing to help transport children to homeschooling events - especially the teen years where the population of homeschoolers seem to slim down a bit (at least in our area) and so are very interested in connecting. Your son doesn't have to be home alone all day. I know several single working parents who's children are taken with different families throughout the week for varying activities or just to be with folks.
Lisa H.
And good for you to have the courage to explore your options.
Have you and your son read The Teenage Liberation Handbook? Perhaps that may be helpful.
Also - try to connect with other homeschoolers in your area. People are usually very willing to help transport children to homeschooling events - especially the teen years where the population of homeschoolers seem to slim down a bit (at least in our area) and so are very interested in connecting. Your son doesn't have to be home alone all day. I know several single working parents who's children are taken with different families throughout the week for varying activities or just to be with folks.
Lisa H.
----- Original Message -----
From: GothicLoungeLizard@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, March 12, 2004 10:20 AM
Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] (unknown)
Hello everyone. I'm a new member but have been watching the list off and on for a couple weeks now. I am a single mother of a 13 year old son who is finishing up seventh grade this year at public school. We are both completely fed up with the public school system and want out. I've been doing some reading/researching on homeschooling, which is how I discovered the concept of unschooling. I am completely intrigued by the idea and really wish that I had learned about it years ago when my son was still young. I am concerned that it may be too late now for it to be of value to him.
I am determined that this is going to be his last year in public school, but I'm facing several challenges, not the least of which is that I have to work full time to support us. I am desperately trying to find a way to make a living from home, which has always been my goal/dream anyway, but so far nothing viable has come to light. Even if my son has to stay home by himself during the day, I still feel that he will be better off than he currently is in the school system.
From the posts I've read thus far, it seems as though most of you either have younger children or started your children with homeschooling/unschooling at a young age. Do any of you have any advice about starting with a young teenager and how to move from a schooling type of mentality to a self-learning mentality? He is a very intelligent child, but he has absolutely no motivation to put it to use at this stage in his life. Considering some of the things I've been learning recently about the school system I can understand why, but I'd like to help him overcome that.
I guess the other major question I have is, is it possible to make this work for him if I'm not able to be home with him during the day? As much as I desperately want to be, I have to pay the bills somehow, so there is a strong possibility that it just won't work out that way.
Thanks,
Chris
"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
Visit the Unschooling website and message boards: http://www.unschooling.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UnschoolingDiscussion/
b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]