Mary

Is anyone familiar with scientology and how it relates to parenting children? It doesn't advocate spanking or anything drastic like that does it? Is it a respectful treatment of children in parenting?

Mary B


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tia Leschke

> Is anyone familiar with scientology and how it relates to parenting
children? It doesn't advocate spanking or anything drastic like that does
it? Is it a respectful treatment of children in parenting?

Oh yikes! is all I can say. I was raised in a scientology family. I doubt
they have anything to say about spanking, but if your parent is an "auditor"
your questions and statements will all be met with, "Thank you" or "Ok". As
in, "I hate you, Mom!" "Thank you."

My mother was eventually "excommunicated" (called suppressive to
scientology) for disagreeing with L. Ron Hubbard, and my father wasn't
allowed to communicate with her. I have *nothing* good to say about
scientology.
Tia

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
saftety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Ben Franklin
leschke@...

Tia Leschke

>
> And just as my opinion which should be taken for whatever it's worth to
you,
> but it not only sounds like Tia didn't have a very happy experience with
> Scientology, but it also sounds like her parents severly misinterpreted
> Scientology principles. If a child said "I hate you, Mom" and was met
only
> with a reply such as "Thank you", that's not a very sane reply. I've
never
> seen this in any of the Scientologists I've met.

Maybe you weren't involved in the 50s and 60s. Maybe they've changed since
L Ron died, but it would surprise me. My mother was a fully qualified
"auditor" with tons of training in their "org" and her minister's license.
I had an "intensive" (from
someone else - but with those same infuriating "thank you's") when I was
about 10 which certainly would have been considered child abuse. I finally
literally escaped out a bathroom window. It was horrific.

My father died in England while there for "processing" that was supposed to
cure his cancer. He had paid for a couple of years worth of "processing"
and died a few weeks later. Did his estate ever receive a refund? Not a
chance. In *my* eyes, the organization is evil.

Ya gotta love this quote from their site. "A maxim in Scientology is that
only those things which one finds true for himself are true. In Scientology
one learns to think for himself - it is a voyage of self-discovery." I
guess that's why they kicked my mother out when she disagreed with L Ron.

And here's another one related to that. "suppressive person: a person who
possesses a distinct set of characteristics and mental attitudes that cause
him to suppress other people in his vicinity. This is the person whose
behavior is calculated to be disastrous. Also called antisocial personality.
" In the mid 60s this label was applied to anyone who disagreed in even the
slightest way with the big cheese. (I don't remember now what the
disagreement was, but it was *very* minor. They didn't tolerate *any*
disagreement about anything in those days. I'd be really surprised if it's
changed.)
Tia

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
saftety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Ben Franklin
leschke@...

Mary

From: <JennWeed1@...>

<<And just as my opinion which should be taken for whatever it's worth to
you,
but it not only sounds like Tia didn't have a very happy experience with
Scientology, but it also sounds like her parents severly misinterpreted
Scientology principles. If a child said "I hate you, Mom" and was met only
with a reply such as "Thank you", that's not a very sane reply. I've never
seen this in any of the Scientologists I've met.>>


Can I post you privately about this??

Mary B

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/13/03 11:16:37 AM, leschke@... writes:

<< Maybe you weren't involved in the 50s and 60s. Maybe they've changed since

L Ron died, but it would surprise me. >>

One of my best friends worked at the headquarters in the 1980's. She was
FULLY involved and when it's mentioned now, her eyes get big and she
stretches her head back and just LOOKS at you until the subject changes.

That says a lot. <g>
She's very chatty.

Sandra

[email protected]

LOL. I've had auditing and been acknowledged with "thank yous" for answering
the questions, but never found it maddening. Did you really climb out the
window to get away? Who said you had to stay there in the first place? If I
was made to get auditing when I didn't want to, I'd climb out the window too!
LOL.

I'm assuming you're speaking of experiences from over 30 years ago, by your
reference to the 50's and 60's. I'm sure it must have been at least a little
different then.

Regarding your father, someone unfortunately gave you wrong information, as
it's well known in Scientology that auditing is never sold with a promise of
curing anything. How could it. People have been known to "cure" themselves
after auditing of all manner of ailments, but it's entirely an individual
thing. There's no way they would or could make a claim like that. If anyone
ever says differently, you can tell them they're a bunch of crap.

Your mother being declared a suppressive person is unfortunate. I've seen it
happen, but only after it's demonstrated they are causing harm in some way to
others, and will not discontinue. I don't know if your mother was the one
that insisted you sit in the auditing chair when you didn't want to, but
that's one example I can think of that could be considering harming someone.
Taking away your self-determinism (...although the escape out the window was
a good way to get it back! LOL) Another suppressive act is spreading lies
about Scientology or Scientologists. One that comes to mind is that your
father bought auditing to cure his cancer. Not that these necessarily came
from your mother, but in looking at the entire package you're presenting
about your experiences and your obvious aversion, coupled with your mother
being "ousted", perhaps there's a connection.

I've seen all manner of people's disagreements with Scientology, and I've
never seen someone ousted for them. It is not intolerant as you make it
seem, though they don't tolerate the harming of others or what they're trying
to accomplish, which is to just help people become more able. I'm sure we
could debate this for days and weeks and months, but right now I'm in the
middle of doing my taxes and the clock is tick tick ticking away.

JenW


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Tia Leschke

> LOL. I've had auditing and been acknowledged with "thank yous" for
answering
> the questions, but never found it maddening. Did you really climb out the
> window to get away?

I did.

>Who said you had to stay there in the first place?

The auditor

>
> I'm assuming you're speaking of experiences from over 30 years ago, by
your
> reference to the 50's and 60's. I'm sure it must have been at least a
little
> different then.

I did say that it *might* be different now.
>
> Regarding your father, someone unfortunately gave you wrong information,
as
> it's well known in Scientology that auditing is never sold with a promise
of
> curing anything. How could it. People have been known to "cure"
themselves
> after auditing of all manner of ailments, but it's entirely an individual
> thing. There's no way they would or could make a claim like that. If
anyone
> ever says differently, you can tell them they're a bunch of crap.

I wasn't clear. Nobody made that claim, though the things he'd been taught
convinced him that he might be able to cure himself. What angered me was
that he had paid in advance for a *lot* of auditing and training that he
never got. And we never got one penny refund.
>
> Your mother being declared a suppressive person is unfortunate. I've seen
it
> happen, but only after it's demonstrated they are causing harm in some way
to
> others, and will not discontinue.

I don't remember the details, but she wrote *one* letter disagreeing with L
Ron. Someone from the org asked her to say that she didn't really think
that way, which she refused to do. She wasn't into lying.

I don't know if your mother was the one
> that insisted you sit in the auditing chair when you didn't want to, but
> that's one example I can think of that could be considering harming
someone.
> Taking away your self-determinism (...although the escape out the window
was
> a good way to get it back! LOL)

No, I had agreed to the intensive (because I desperately wanted to stop
wetting the bed). It was the auditor who wouldn't let me leave, someone
they had been led to believe was *very* good. When I got out and called my
mother, she came and got me right away, and that was the end of it for me.

Another suppressive act is spreading lies
> about Scientology or Scientologists. One that comes to mind is that your
> father bought auditing to cure his cancer. Not that these necessarily
came
> from your mother, but in looking at the entire package you're presenting
> about your experiences and your obvious aversion, coupled with your mother
> being "ousted", perhaps there's a connection.

Nope. That was all *after* she was excommunicated. In fact, the only way
he was allowed to go was if he "disconnected" from her. (They were
separated at the time but still good friends.) As far as the cancer went,
it was his belief that it was his only hope. The docs had said they could
do nothing for him.
>
> I've seen all manner of people's disagreements with Scientology, and I've
> never seen someone ousted for them.

I guess you weren't involved in the mid 60s. We heard about a lot of them
at that time.

It is not intolerant as you make it
> seem, though they don't tolerate the harming of others or what they're
trying
> to accomplish, which is to just help people become more able.

As a child and teen, my view of them was that they were out to make money
off people. I haven't seen anything since that would change my impressions.

(I suppose you might now consider me suppressive to Scientology, but so be
it.)
Tia

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
saftety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Ben Franklin
leschke@...

[email protected]

>One of my best friends worked at the headquarters in the 1980's. She was
>FULLY involved and when it's mentioned now, her eyes get big and she
>stretches her head back and just LOOKS at you until the subject changes.

>That says a lot. <g>
>She's very chatty.

You know, unfortunately there will probably always be people who can take any
subject and make it seem "evil" or the wrong thing to do. Think of all the
people that run around calling unschoolers crazy and reporting it to social
services. I'm sure they are convinced it is evil and wrong and harmful, and
have all kinds of reasons why. Some of those reasons may even sound so darn
logical that they can convince others to feel the same, whether those others
have ever really explored the subject on their own or not. Hardly fair.
Among the other "crazy" things I do to put my children in harm's way, I also
don't vaccinate, I breastfeed, used cloth diapers up until a short while ago,
share a family bed, intend to homeschool/unschool, and both children were
born at home -- my second one with just my husband and me. On every one of
those subjects I've heard all kinds of reasons why I'm insane, stupid,
putting my kids in danger or I'm going to raise spoiled brats with no social
skills, etc. (sigh)

With so many opinions, sometimes you just have to think for yourselves and
not take anyone's word for it.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/13/03 3:55:46 PM, JennWeed1@... writes:

<< Think of all the
people that run around calling unschoolers crazy and reporting it to social
services. I'm sure they are convinced it is evil and wrong and harmful, and
have all kinds of reasons why. >>

If one of them used to work at Growing Without Schooling and thought it was
crazy and harmful, I would give that more credence than if someone without
really a clue thought so.

<< Some of those reasons may even sound so darn
logical that they can convince others to feel the same, whether those others
have ever really explored the subject on their own or not. >>

Because this friend is so well known to me and so bright, and was so
convinced herself at one time that it was a good idea that she basically
dedicated her entire lifeforce to it for years, I wouldn't explore the
subject blindly on my own any more than I would touch an iron she had just
told me was hot.

<<With so many opinions, sometimes you just have to think for yourselves and
not take anyone's word for it.>>

Sometimes. There's a difference between just taking a stranger's word for
something and having high regard for the opinion of someone who has earned
your trust.

Sandra

Tia Leschke

Well, someone asked. They now have my experience, Sandra's friend's
experience, and the website (as well as your experience) to look at.
Tia

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
saftety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Ben Franklin
leschke@...