[email protected]

In a message dated 4/12/03 2:56:32 AM, grlynbl@... writes:

<< You can prove that as easily as I can prove there is a heaven. >>

More easily.

I'm not particular about what happens, personally. I'm living an honest and
helpful life, being as good a mom as I can be, and I live that way without it
being fear of God.

But there are researchers who have found sites described by people from past
lives. "The Girl With the Blue Eyes" was the account of a woman who
remembered a past life, described a house and a well, knew what children she
had had, whatever all. And people found this farmstead from her
descriptions, and it was just the foundation but right to her description.
Somewhere in SE Canada, I think.

In India there are some well documented cases of a child telling stories, the
parents taking them to the town they describe and finding people they had
named, still living.

I haven't read about it for years, but what I read seemed legitimate.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/12/2003 10:43:36 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:

> I'm living an honest and
> helpful life, being as good a mom as I can be, and I live that way without
> it
> being fear of God.
>

Here's the thing and not to be nit picky but this is a BIG thing you
misunderstand. Many (if not most) Christians don't live their lives the way
they do because they are AFRAID of God, but because we love God and our
relationship with him and probably because we are just basically good kind
mothers who are trying to do the best for our kids too, not out of FEAR of
anyone or anything.

I think you just really don't get the place were loving Christians come from.
Maybe scars from your past. If that's the case I'm sorry for that but we
really don't live in fear of a loving God at all.

glena


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/12/03 9:33:13 AM, rubyprincesstsg@... writes:

<< Here's the thing and not to be nit picky but this is a BIG thing you
misunderstand. >>

You're not going to say ANYTHING about Christianity that I don't already
understand.
I'm not trying to be arrogant, just to let you know it's been one of the main
things I've followed in my life, asking people of all denominations what and
why, reading the histories of sects and why changes came about. I know the
Bible very well, and stories about various translations.

<<I think you just really don't get the place were loving Christians come
from.
Maybe scars from your past. If that's the case I'm sorry for that but we
really don't live in fear of a loving God at all.>>

You can say "I" but you can't say "we" about Christians.

I can give you websites about the fear of God if you want, or I can spare you
that "horror."

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/12/03 10:43:03 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:

> More easily.
>
> I'm not particular about what happens, personally. I'm living an honest
> and
> helpful life, being as good a mom as I can be, and I live that way without
> it
> being fear of God.
>
> But there are researchers who have found sites described by people from
> past
> lives. "The Girl With the Blue Eyes" was the account of a woman who
> remembered a past life, described a house and a well, knew what children
> she
> had had, whatever all. And people found this farmstead from her
> descriptions, and it was just the foundation but right to her description.
>
> Somewhere in SE Canada, I think.
>
> In India there are some well documented cases of a child telling stories,
> the
> parents taking them to the town they describe and finding people they had
> named, still living.
>
> I haven't read about it for years, but what I read seemed legitimate.
>
> Sandra
>

Oh yes, we have all heard those stories, and I do not discount them in any
way. But I can also give you just as many "near death, go to the light, I'm
in heaven" stories. But, you already pointed out that you know how to google
and do searches, so I won't detail them here. They do exist, and they are as
valid as "I've lived 5 times" stories

Teresa

Teresa


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/12/03 11:41:48 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:

> You can say "I" but you can't say "we" about Christians

I didnt make the "we" statement, but.. On this list, we have myself, Glena,
Sheila, Pam G and Ang.. ( thats all I think of off the top of my head) who
have all stated that we do not live in fear of God.. Thats more than one
person, so that is a "we"

Teresa


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

coyote's corner

You seem to change what is real in the Christians that I know (and I know some from every corner of this nation!!). In the ones I know and hear about - hell is a real threat.
Janis
----- Original Message -----
From: rubyprincesstsg@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2003 11:32 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] afterlife/afterlives/today-lives


In a message dated 4/12/2003 10:43:36 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:

> I'm living an honest and
> helpful life, being as good a mom as I can be, and I live that way without
> it
> being fear of God.
>

Here's the thing and not to be nit picky but this is a BIG thing you
misunderstand. Many (if not most) Christians don't live their lives the way
they do because they are AFRAID of God, but because we love God and our
relationship with him and probably because we are just basically good kind
mothers who are trying to do the best for our kids too, not out of FEAR of
anyone or anything.

I think you just really don't get the place were loving Christians come from.
Maybe scars from your past. If that's the case I'm sorry for that but we
really don't live in fear of a loving God at all.

glena


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

sablehs

I personally don't think of them contradicting one another. As I said my MIL is a Christian but also believes people come back again and again to learn new lessons, a lot of times they want to comeback sometimes it is a lesson in the fact of "what you do to others you may get back"
It tied together for her {we were just talking about this today} some of the going ons in the world some of the bad things that happens to kids {as she puts it they are souls after all} they may have to have that experience to realize they shouldn't do it to others {form of hell as it were}
Anyway it's not saying people don't go someplace after death, pagans call Heaven, Summerland {all our pets and loved ones are welcome} and some stay and some after a while there decide {or however your beliefs understand it, } God may send them back.
I personally don't think of it as much as instant I think there is a waiting period where some may go to "Heaven" . But that is totally my views and I can't speak for anyone, other then to say on that she and I very much agree.
Tracy

grlynbl@... wrote:> Somewhere in SE Canada, I think.
>
> In India there are some well documented cases of a child telling stories,
> the
> parents taking them to the town they describe and finding people they had
> named, still living.
>
> I haven't read about it for years, but what I read seemed legitimate.
>
> Sandra
>

Oh yes, we have all heard those stories, and I do not discount them in any
way. But I can also give you just as many "near death, go to the light, I'm
in heaven" stories. But, you already pointed out that you know how to google
and do searches, so I won't detail them here. They do exist, and they are as
valid as "I've lived 5 times" stories

Teresa

Teresa


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

kayb85

I obey God becaues I love Him, not because I fear hell if I don't
obey. I'm sure fear of hell had something to do with my decision to
become saved as a child, but now that I am saved and know I can't
lose that salvation, fear of going to hell isn't a factor.

This reminds me of a Christian song I haven't listened to in a long
time:

No excuse, no one to blame, no where to hide
The eyes of God have found my failure, found my pain
He understands my weaknesses and knows my shame,
But His heart never leaves me

Chorus:
It's your kindness that leads us to repentence, Oh Lord
Knowing that You love us, no matter what we do
Makes us want to love you too
(repeat)

Waiting for angry words to sear my soul
Knowing that I don't deserve another chance,
But suddenly the kindest words I've ever heard
Come flooding from God's heart

One aspect of this strict Christian parents thread that I haven't
seen anyone point out is that there are degrees of strictness among
Christians. I grew up in a denomination called Evangelical Free.
Definitely fundamental, believing in inerrancy of Scripture,
salvation through faith, would agree with the statement of faith
homeschoolers in theology. In denominations such as this, the
parents are often spankers (although not always). However, they're
the James Dobson style-spankers and not the Pearl To train up a child
style-spankers. That might sound like a slight difference--after all
a spanker is a spanker. But there IS a difference. I really think
that the no mercy style of the pearls is MUCH worse. Kids in those
denominations often go to Christian schools but just as often go to
public school (and more and more are starting to homeschool too of
course). But kids are more often than not allowed to listen to
regular radio music (although Christian contemporary is encouraged),
watch r rated movies, etc. They are ok with different versions of
the Bible. They often have modern praise choruses and praise bands.

Then, you have what my family would have called "legalistic"
Christians. They are the independent Baptist churches, among
others. King James version only. No rock music, even if it's
Christian, because the evil is in the rhythm. Women must wear
dresses so that they don't look like men. Women must submit to their
husbands. Women must not work. Women must never teach a man.
Children are spanked with rods if they even question a command.
Sometimes women wear headcoverings, sometimes not. Children are
taught they must not date, only court. Two year olds are made to
memorize Scripture. Absolutely no alcohol. These are the families
you read about in those Christian horror story links that were
posted. MOST evangelical, fundamental Christians would read those
links and be disgusted. The horror story links don't represent most
fundamental Christians.

So when looking for a name, most in Christian circles would use the
word legalistic to describe the ones responsible for the horror
stories.

Sheila


> > You can say "I" but you can't say "we" about Christians
>
> I didnt make the "we" statement, but.. On this list, we have
myself, Glena,
> Sheila, Pam G and Ang.. ( thats all I think of off the top of my
head) who
> have all stated that we do not live in fear of God.. Thats more
than one
> person, so that is a "we"
>
> Teresa
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Fetteroll

on 4/13/03 3:21 AM, kayb85 at sheran@... wrote:

> So when looking for a name, most in Christian circles would use the
> word legalistic to describe the ones responsible for the horror
> stories.

According to the definition at Religious Tolerance it might look legalistic
from the outside but not from the inside:

> Legalism:
> * The belief that one's salvation depends upon strictly following religious
> laws and rituals.
> * The belief that salvation is at least partly dependent on one's good works.

I remember they made it very clear that salvation was given freely and
didn't depend on anything but accepting Jesus Christ as your personal
savior. All the other stuff is done out of love of God because that's the
way God wants them to live. (From the outside it looks like one up manship
to show who loves God the most.)

They call themselves Christian. And if your beliefs don't jive with theirs
then they're True Christians and you aren't Christian at all.

They're the ones the anger and upsetness should be directed at. You should
be angry at them for appropriating a word that has meaning for you, not at
the people who are just calling them what they call themselves.

Joyce

Fetteroll

Here's something from the Religous Tolerance website about hell and some
statistics about numbers of Christians. This is a really good page and
discusses the basics of the main segments of Christianity. In fact the whole
site is really great.

http://religioustolerance.org/chr_intr.htm
A prime belief: life after death:

Christian beliefs about one's destination after death vary greatly:

* Many conservative Protestant Christians believe that people are born and
remain sinful; they will end up being eternally punished in Hell unless they
are "saved" by trusting Jesus as Lord and Savior. 

* Roman Catholics also believe that salvation comes from God. But they
believe that it is channeled through church sacraments to sinful but
repentant persons. Most people, at death, go to Purgatory, which is a type
of temporary Hell; a few go directly to Heaven; others go permanently to
Hell.

* Religious liberals generally interpret hell symbolically, not as an actual
place. They reject the concept of a loving God creating a place of eternal
torment.

Current status of Christianity:

About 33% of the world's population regard themselves as Christian. This
percentage has been stable for decades. (The second most popular religion is
Islam at about 20%. It is growing. If its present growth rate continues, it
will to become the dominant religion of the world during in a few decades.)
About 75% of American adults and a similar number of Canadians identify
themselves as Christian. This number has recently been dropping about one
percentage point per year. This is mainly due to:

* The sudden increase in non-theists, such as Agnostics, Atheists,
Humanists, etc. They are growing about one percentage point per year.

* An increase in the numbers of followers of minority religions, largely
caused by immigration from regions of the world which are predominantly
Buddhist, Hindu, and Muslim.

* The emergence of new spiritual/religious movements like New Age, Wicca and
other Neopagan religions. Wicca, for example, is doubling in size about
every 30 months.

Christianity in North America is a severely divided faith, consisting of 
over 1,000 denominations, which are often categorized into conservative,
mainline and liberal wings:

* Many Fundamentalist and other Evangelical Christians regard saved
individuals as the only true Christians. They maintain separate religious
denominations, radio stations, publishing houses, book stores, local
ministerial associations, etc -- even exercise videos. They tend to look
upon Christianity as a living relationship with their Savior. 

* Mainline Christians tend to be much more inclusive. They accept as
Christian anyone who follows the teachings of and about Jesus Christ.  

* Liberal Christians agree with mainline Christians, and are even more
inclusive. Some liberal theologians, particularly those who are members of
the Jesus Seminar, have abandoned or completely reinterpreted most
traditional Christian beliefs.

Joyce

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/13/03 3:50:28 AM, fetteroll@... writes:

<< They're the ones the anger and upsetness should be directed at. You should
be angry at them for appropriating a word that has meaning for you, not at
the people who are just calling them what they call themselves. >>

This is so good a point it needs repeating.

If ANYONE could "fix" Christianity, it would have been doing better all
along. It will always be split into warring factions accusing each other of
all kinds of stuff. Whether Christians who unschool understand it all or
not, it's all out there. So grumping at US about it is like looking for
money under a streetlight in the whole wrong town.

Sandra

Pamela Sorooshian

I'm asking, not attacking:

Do you believe God punishes people? Do you believe in hell?
I'm wondering about what it means when people say they are Christians
who believe in a loving God - and don't fear Him.

I can get the idea of both - love and fear can go hand-in-hand, of
course. I understand God as a parent who both loves and punishes, for
His children's own good. I have trouble understanding how anybody can
be Christian but say there is no fear involved...just wondering what
they do with the stuff in the Bible about God punishing and what they
think happens to people who don't accept Jesus, etc.

Or do you mean you don't fear Him because you are saved and so you
don't need to fear Him? But the rest of us should? Or?

I'm asking for information - not arguing about it - trying to learn.
Please do not take anything I said here as an "assumption" - it is just
me trying to understand.

-pam


On Saturday, April 12, 2003, at 09:24 AM, grlynbl@... wrote:

> I didnt make the "we" statement, but.. On this list, we have myself,
> Glena,
> Sheila, Pam G and Ang.. ( thats all I think of off the top of my head)
> who
> have all stated that we do not live in fear of God.. Thats more than
> one
> person, so that is a "we"

kayb85

I don't think I agree with the religious tolerance's definition of
legalism. The people I grew up calling legalistic often believed in
salvation through faith, not through works and believed that you
couldn't lose your salvation. However, they thought that a whole
bunch of rules were necessary in order to please God.

Sheila


> > So when looking for a name, most in Christian circles would use
the
> > word legalistic to describe the ones responsible for the horror
> > stories.
>
> According to the definition at Religious Tolerance it might look
legalistic
> from the outside but not from the inside:
>
> > Legalism:
> > * The belief that one's salvation depends upon strictly
following religious
> > laws and rituals.
> > * The belief that salvation is at least partly dependent on
one's good works.
>
> I remember they made it very clear that salvation was given freely
and
> didn't depend on anything but accepting Jesus Christ as your
personal
> savior. All the other stuff is done out of love of God because
that's the
> way God wants them to live. (From the outside it looks like one up
manship
> to show who loves God the most.)
>
> They call themselves Christian. And if your beliefs don't jive with
theirs
> then they're True Christians and you aren't Christian at all.
>
> They're the ones the anger and upsetness should be directed at. You
should
> be angry at them for appropriating a word that has meaning for you,
not at
> the people who are just calling them what they call themselves.
>
> Joyce

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/13/03 12:06:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
pamsoroosh@... writes:

> I'm asking, not attacking:
>
> Do you believe God punishes people? Do you believe in hell?
> I'm wondering about what it means when people say they are Christians
> who believe in a loving God - and don't fear Him.
>
>

Not wanting to get into a long post about this as I have tried to stay out of
this discussion but my DH and I were talking about this last night. I follow
the teachings of Jesus Christ, that is why I consider myself a Christian.
But I believe that the Bible was written by man and thus should be taken with
a grain of salt, so to speak. I think you need to consider the possibility
that man was doing the best he could to make sense out of what was being told
to him and written documentation needs to be viewed keeping in mind the
era/culture in which it is written. I do not take the Bible literally but
use it as a guide. I believe in God as the creator but do not think that
creation and evolution are mutually exclusive. You don't have to believe in
just one. For just one example. I believe in Jesus born to Mary but don't
believe in the immaculate conception. I believe in a loving God that saw fit
to send Jesus as one messenger of peace, but possibly not the only messenger
(I say possibly as I have not really studied other religions) I don't believe
in Hell. I don't believe that Christians are the only people that will
experience a glorious afterlife.

Anyway this is WAY longer than I intended but I think it may give some
insight into what I believe and how someone could be Christian and not
believe in Hell etc. I think we need to make our own interpretations about
anything written. And I hope my boys will learn that there are many ways to
see and interpret things.

My last post one the subject.
Pam G.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sorcha

The problem with calling a Christian group "legalistic" is that I've
never met any Christian who considered her/himself legalistic, but they
can usually name 20 other people or groups who are. So it's a term that
Christians use to mean "those other Christians who are wrong" and never
use to mean "us". It's about as useful a term as "idiotic". But you
can see where it wouldn't be useful to say we're talking about the
"idiotic Christians", not the normal ones, because then someone's going
to join later and wonder why we're calling Christians idiotic, and this
whole discussion would start again.

Sorcha


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Mary

From: <genant2@...>

<<I think you need to consider the possibility
that man was doing the best he could to make sense out of what was being
told
to him and written documentation needs to be viewed keeping in mind the
era/culture in which it is written. I do not take the Bible literally but
use it as a guide>>

I was taught by catholic nuns and priests and teachers that the bible is a
story book. Not everything in a storybook is real, but they all have a
message you need to figure out and that can be different to different
people.

Mary B

Pamela Sorooshian

I appreciate it and it was exactly what I was wondering about.

These days, people with beliefs like yours aren't even considered real
Christians by the people we're talking about. I sit at the soccer field
and HEAR people say things like, "Is she a Christian?" And their point
is to exclude exactly what you've described - they mean to exclude
those who don't believe the way they do. I know lots of people who are
Christians who believe similarly to you - and they tend to keep that to
themselves when around other Christians, because they know they'll be
ostracized. (I'm talking mostly about in homeschooling circles, here.)

-pam


On Sunday, April 13, 2003, at 09:49 AM, genant2@... wrote:

> Anyway this is WAY longer than I intended but I think it may give some
> insight into what I believe and how someone could be Christian and not
> believe in Hell etc. I think we need to make our own interpretations
> about
> anything written. And I hope my boys will learn that there are many
> ways to
> see and interpret things.
>
> My last post one the subject.
> Pam G.

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/13/03 10:58:06 AM, sorcha-aisling@... writes:

<< But you
can see where it wouldn't be useful to say we're talking about the
"idiotic Christians", not the normal ones, because then someone's going
to join later and wonder why we're calling Christians idiotic, and this
whole discussion would start again. >>

This kinda varies from language to language. Christianity itself is
different in different languages, with the perceived distance between people
and God affected by the particular terminology used. One reason it's so easy
to argue about it in English is that English has SO many words for the same
thing, being such a pack-rat language, so when English speakers argue about
"grace and mercy" or whatever, they often have no idea that in some other
languages Christians couldn't possibly argue it because they don't have so
many different ways it could have been translated.

On the "Dress to Kill" DVD, there's a bonus performance, which Eddie Izzard
did in France, in French, and I was greatly amused to see he noted something
I noticed when I was studying French long ago.

Le mot pour le chrétien est comme le mot pour le crétin.

In French. the word "Christian" is almost just like the word "cretin."
Almost the same.

That typo's not going to happen in English but must happen in French lots.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/12/03 11:19:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
sablehs@... writes:

> I personally don't think of them contradicting one another

You know, I dont think they contradict each other either. I think they are
different interpretations of the same things. I DO know there is 'something"
after death. I may call it "Heaven" but, I cant really say what it will be
exactly, or heck, even loosely. I do not beleive in "Hell" as a place of a
burning lake of fire.. brimstone, etc etc. ( and this is my personal
interpretation) I think that those words, descriptions, images, are the only
tangible things that the writers of the bible could come up with to describe
the feelings of despair and agony that we will feel if we are seperated from
God. Hell could be many different things to different people, just like
Heaven could be.

Teresa


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tia Leschke

Le mot pour le chrétien est comme le mot pour le crétin.

In French. the word "Christian" is almost just like the word "cretin."
Almost the same.

Mom! She's trashing our prime minister! <huge grin>
Tia

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
saftety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Ben Franklin
leschke@...

myfunny4

--- In [email protected], Pamela Sorooshian
<pamsoroosh@m...> wrote:
> Do you believe God punishes people? Do you believe in hell?

I'll keep my answers brief, since this probably isn't the forum for a
crash-course in Catholicism <g>.

I do not believe that God punishes people; people punish themselves.
If I deliberately hurt someone, any retribution or consequence of
that act, is my punishment.

I believe that hell is the state of eternal separation from God; in
this state there is no light, no sound, no touch; you are completely
alone in an eternal void.

On a side note, referencing another post, Purgatory is the state of
purification that a soul undergoes before entering the state of
heaven. It is for those who die in God's grace, therefore assured of
salvation, but burdened by sin.

> I have trouble understanding how anybody can
> be Christian but say there is no fear involved...

God loves and God IS love. You cannot fear love. The word "fear",
in Catholic teaching, is meant to convey the feeling of overpowering
awe and absolute reverence when contemplating the almighty being of
God.

I love God because He has called me to love Him; I have felt His love
move in me, and my soul - my being, or essence - responds by loving
Him.

Debbie

sablehs

Yes, yes, yes!! <g>Tracy

genant2@... wrote: And I hope my boys will learn that there are many ways to
see and interpret things.

My last post one the subject.
Pam G.



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Mary

From: "myfunny4" <Debbies4@...>

<<In [email protected], "Mary" <mummy124@b...>
wrote:
I was taught by catholic nuns and priests and teachers that the bible is a
story book. >>


That's not entirely accurate. In Catholicism, the Bible is the word
of God; in order to reveal Himself to men, God speaks to them in
human words.


Well I don't know how true it is or not, but that's what I was taught in
catholic school from catholic teachers. It actually made more sense to me
than anything else I learned in catholic religion.


Mary B

myfunny4

--- In [email protected], "Mary" <mummy124@b...>
wrote:
>
> I was taught by catholic nuns and priests and teachers that the
bible is a
> story book.

That's not entirely accurate. In Catholicism, the Bible is the word
of God; in order to reveal Himself to men, God speaks to them in
human words.

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Chapter 2, Article 3,
section 105:

"The divinely revealed realities, which are contained and presented
in the text of Sacred Scripture, have been written down under the
inspiration of the Holy Spirit."

The Catholic Church teaches that:

"In Sacred Scripture, God speaks to man in a human way. To interpret
Scripture correctly, the reader must be attentive to what the human
authors truly wanted to affirm, and to what God wanted to reveal to
us by their words.

In order to discover the sacred authors' intention, the reader must
take into account the conditions of their time and culture, the
literary genres in use at that time, and the modes of feeling,
speaking, and narrating then current."

Just wanted to clarify that.

Debbie

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/13/03 12:06:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
pamsoroosh@... writes:

> Do you believe God punishes people? Do you believe in hell?
> I'm wondering about what it means when people say they are Christians
> who believe in a loving God - and don't fear Him.
>

I have already answered about my beliefs in Hell in another post in response
to someone else. My posts are moderated, so, I apologize for the delay in
thier transmission.. It seems like my responses are untimely since they don't
post as soon as I send them.. Anyway, as to the rest of your question. I do
not live in fear of God. I DO believe that God has mighty, omnipotent power,
and he CAN bring his wrath on folks if he choses.. But, he is a loving and
forgiving God. It is VERY much like the parent relationship you describe.
My concept of God is just like the attachment parenting/unschooling ideals of
parenting. We are good stewards, good ministers, good people in general beca
use we love God, we want to please him and bring him Joy. WHY? Well, its
simple, because he first showed ( and continues showing) his love for us. He
is our role model. When we are not "good people", it hurts him, and it
hurts us to be seperated from God and to cause him greif. It is really all
so simple. It should be especially simple to unschooling folks. If one has
a close, intimate relationship with God, If one seeks him out, prays, reads
and communes with him, then the "right" way is easy to see. Just like we
trust our children to make the right choices because we have talked with
them, loved them, modeled for them, God trusts us to do what is right if we
walk and talk with him. We "are good people" out of principle, not out of
fear.

Now, granted, I fall VERY short of this goal often.. It seems I fall short of
it most often on this list. I can't say exactly why, but something "here"
seems to bring out the worst in me. I was recently blessed to be a part
of a physical manifestation of the love of Christ, and the love of the Body
of Christ for others. I suppose this spirtual renewal caused me to take
offense at the labeling of "Christians" in a category with folks who
restrict, control, and abuse thier children. And, that resentment caused me
act in an un Christian manner. I apologize for not being a better example.
As I said earlier, its a continuing process to be a better person.

Teresa


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In a message dated 4/13/03 12:52:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time, genant2@...
writes:

> Anyway this is WAY longer than I intended but I think it may give some
> insight into what I believe and how someone could be Christian and not
> believe in Hell etc. I think we need to make our own interpretations about
> anything written. And I hope my boys will learn that there are many ways
> to
> see and interpret things.
>
> My last post one the subject.
> Pam G.
>

Pam, that was a great post. I am pretty much on the same page as you..I
agree with just about everything you said. The only exception being that I
DO believe Jesus was born of a virgin, (immaculate conception) But, that is
just my personal interpretation. I also beleive in the Preisthood of the
Believer which is basically what you said here
" I think we need to make our own interpretations about anything written."

As we are each our own "priest", we are given the authority to interpret the
scriptures as we understand them. And, we are not required to have a "middle
man" between ourselves and God.. We have a direct line straight to him
through prayer and meditation. God does speak to us through others, through
nature, music, etc,.. But he also speaks to us directly as we are priests in
his eyes. ( IF we believe in him)

All that is JMO
Teresa


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Pamela Sorooshian

On Sunday, April 13, 2003, at 01:17 PM, grlynbl@... wrote:

> I suppose this spirtual renewal caused me to take
> offense at the labeling of "Christians" in a category with folks who
> restrict, control, and abuse thier children. And, that resentment
> caused me
> act in an un Christian manner. I apologize for not being a better
> example.
> As I said earlier, its a continuing process to be a better person.

Well - we're all there with you on that one, that's for sure. ALL
engaged in that process ourselves, I mean! <G>

-pam

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In a message dated 4/13/2003 4:47:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
grlynbl@... writes:

> Hell could be many different things to different people, just like
> Heaven could be.

Was it Plato who said each person has his own version of hell? And George
Orwell kind of tweaked it with _1984_.

I remember when we had the restaurant and an unpleasant, vulgar, unsually
drunk, REGULAR guest named Thurmond Brandon. Our head waiter, Jerome, used to
say that HIS version of hell was to repeatedly explain the dessert cart to
Thurmond Brandon! <G>

~Kelly


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In a message dated 4/13/03 1:24:10 PM, Debbies4@... writes:

<< I believe that hell is the state of eternal separation from God; in

this state there is no light, no sound, no touch; you are completely

alone in an eternal void. >>

That sounds heavenly to me.

I told the last Jehovahs Witnesses I talked to that if one of the options was
a quiet dark grave, I'd like that one, please.

They want me to want eternity, but I get tired, y'know? And if the lights go
permanently out, for how long and with what biochemistry would I mourn? I
couldn't even get out the last famous-last word. I hear the most common last
word is "Shit."

Sandra

Fetteroll

on 4/13/03 4:45 PM, grlynbl@... at grlynbl@... wrote:

> I
> DO believe Jesus was born of a virgin, (immaculate conception)

Immaculate conception refers to Mary's conception not Jesus's. She was
preserved from original sin at the time of her conception.

Joyce