Backstrom kelli

<If you or your children have been hit (other than the children being
spanked) so as to leave discernable marks two hours later, and you
genuinely fear that he will repeat his battering, you can take legal
steps without divorcing your husband. In a moment when he is not angry,
calmly inform him that the next time he physically assaults you or the
kids, you are going to call the law and have him arres> I cannot believe this, !!!! I can see that playing out now! (insert cynical face here:) Crazy! Kelli


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[email protected]

In a message dated 4/11/03 8:57:28 PM, [email protected]
writes:

<< And from now on maybe so newbies don't feel
> the
> same way, can the word movement be added to the Christian homeschooling
> opinions?
>

Makes it clearer to me that it is a particular group of organized
homeschoolers who happen to be on a different path of Christianity than what
most are. Not that it was randomly assumed I was a part of that group
because I am Christian.

Sounds good to me.

glena
>>
Newbie here! Don't need special wording to understand that I was not being
insulted for being Christian. I sit here and watch certain people jump on
what one person says and then they come back after reading and say "Oh, I
didn't know." Was I a Christian that was insulted? No, I believe Sandra was
not out to insult anyone. If questions can just be asked than I'm sure it
would have been explained without it turning out the way it did. I'm strong
in my belief and no one could ever insult that even if they tried. By the
way, I'm against hitting also.
~Kim

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/12/2003 1:26:31 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
HOMESCHOOL4GOOD@... writes:

> Newbie here! Don't need special wording to understand that I was not being
> insulted for being Christian.

I'm glad you didn't feel insulted. If was very apparent that it was
classifying an entire group of people "Christians" as exhibiting behaviours
that I would certainly not want associated with me at all.

I've found that on this list you need to be especially clear what you are
talking about or who you are referring to in order to make your point clear
and get the answers you are looking for. It does make a difference in how
others respond to you.

Either way, I'm VERY glad that others have decided to not lump me in with
that group of radical "christian homeschoolers" that I suspect would probably
STILL raise their children the very same way they do without a church or
"religion" but find the church a comfortable excuse or the acceptance of
their behaviours somehow reassuring.

I'm sure that Sandra would not be offended if I were to tell you all about
the two unschooling families that I am familiar with who now have children
who are 19 and 20 (and a handful of younger ones too) that can't read, can't
write, can barely be verbal in any social situation. They know nothing about
getting along in the world. It's very sad really. There are lots of things
I could tell you about them, but there is no need because it wouldn't change
their circumstances for them.

BUT if I were to say things about these unschoolers as fact, I'm sure that
Sandra would feel the need to point out that they are NOT unschoolers in her
sense of the word. You don't want others to misunderstand or think you
approve or accept things like rods with names, whipping babies to change them
and the like.

Last time I'm gonna try to explain why it is offensive to be grouped in with
these radicals. If it didn't offend you, I'm glad, it does bother me enough
to make sure no one thinks I am a part of that.

glena


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Sorcha

>>>Either way, I'm VERY glad that others have decided to not lump me in
with
that group <<<

If anything, you're associating yourself more and more the more you
carry on and protest. Nobody lumped anyone on this list in with that
group, and you're the one who keeps going on and on about how you never
heard of such a thing and at the same time how you were spanked brutally
and went to a Christian school where girls were expected to sleep with
the administrators in order to graduate. Which is it? You never heard
of that sort of thing? Or you know all about it because of how you grew
up?

>>>I'm sure that Sandra would be offended if I were to tell you all
about
the two unschooling families that I am familiar with<<<

Do you even unschool??? I'm getting a headache here. If you unschool,
then you yourself should be offended by people who neglect their
children and call it unschooling. If you don't unschool and you think
unschooled kids will grow up unable to read, write or even speak, why
are you here? To argue, right?

>>>I could tell you about them, but<<<

But, you just did. And you have before.

Sorcha


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Vicki A. Dennis

----- Original Message -----
From: rubyprincesstsg@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2003 11:03 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Christians Again


these radicals. If it didn't offend you, I'm glad, it does bother me enough
to make sure no one thinks I am a part of that.

glena

++++Making progress :-). No one here is likely to think you are part of that unless you use the name to apply to yourself. The problem is when you deny that there is such a well-recognized group and is very visible and very active in promoting certain views. As well as not so visible but still active in seeking a great political change in the United States.

A common term adopted by a large group was used in its common meaning. If you were unaware of the group, then you might be confused. But you were and are picking the wrong battle.


I doubt the folks that *you* named unschoolers
call themselves that but even if they do............at this point in time there is not a very large group of named unschoolers with barely verbal and illiterate grown children or with a national leader proclaiming to adamant followers that the result and goal of unschooling is to produce people who cannot get along in the world.

I do wonder about the accuracy of your observations/judgments of the referenced families as well as your motive in referring to them as unschooling families.

vicki---a common enough name STILL that I sometimes see "vicki A said" or "vickie B said" or "vicky C said" but don't always feel a need to respond that "Not ALL vicki(e)(y)s say that".



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coyote's corner

Thank you Vicki.

I agree with you 100%.

Janis
----- Original Message -----
From: Vicki A. Dennis
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2003 12:27 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Christians Again



----- Original Message -----
From: rubyprincesstsg@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2003 11:03 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Christians Again


these radicals. If it didn't offend you, I'm glad, it does bother me enough
to make sure no one thinks I am a part of that.

glena

++++Making progress :-). No one here is likely to think you are part of that unless you use the name to apply to yourself. The problem is when you deny that there is such a well-recognized group and is very visible and very active in promoting certain views. As well as not so visible but still active in seeking a great political change in the United States.

A common term adopted by a large group was used in its common meaning. If you were unaware of the group, then you might be confused. But you were and are picking the wrong battle.


I doubt the folks that *you* named unschoolers
call themselves that but even if they do............at this point in time there is not a very large group of named unschoolers with barely verbal and illiterate grown children or with a national leader proclaiming to adamant followers that the result and goal of unschooling is to produce people who cannot get along in the world.

I do wonder about the accuracy of your observations/judgments of the referenced families as well as your motive in referring to them as unschooling families.

vicki---a common enough name STILL that I sometimes see "vicki A said" or "vickie B said" or "vicky C said" but don't always feel a need to respond that "Not ALL vicki(e)(y)s say that".



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/12/03 10:24:02 AM, rubyprincesstsg@... writes:

<< I'm sure that Sandra would not be offended if I were to tell you all about
the two unschooling families that I am familiar with who now have children
who are 19 and 20 (and a handful of younger ones too) that can't read, can't
write, can barely be verbal in any social situation. They know nothing about
getting along in the world. >>

I'm sure you haven't told that story before, and what I'm more offended by is
your telling someone new to the list what was apparent in a statement I made.

You were wrong about that throughout. Please don't speak for me or the list.

<<BUT if I were to say things about these unschoolers as fact, I'm sure that
Sandra would feel the need to point out that they are NOT unschoolers in her
sense of the word.>>

Well you already HAVE said something about them. Do they exist?
Did they unschool (by theirs or anyone's definition) for their kids' entire
homeschooling time, or did they take non-readers out of school in later years
and ignore them and say "unschooling"?

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/12/2003 12:39:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
sorcha-aisling@... writes:

> Which is it? You never heard
> of that sort of thing? Or you know all about it because of how you grew
> up?
>

I never knew they were an organized threat to the unschooling/homeschooling
movement. I didn't think there were many people like that. MOST of the
families in my church were loving caring people. There were those that were
just sick, like mine, but I didn't for one minute think they were all like
that. I thought they just stayed hid in their own little churches trying to
cause as little reaction as possible.

I know what I lived and while my parents were avid church goers I believe I
would have lived the exact same life if they never darkened a church's door.
They were control freaks, they were sick in many ways. I don't really think
it came from church doctrine at all in my particular case. Now the perverted
behaviours of my FIL, the church didn't advocate that either. He did get
caught in that and put out of the church for it, it was some years after I
was completely gone from there though.

So my ignorance was that they were organized enough to speak out and try to
have anything to do with legislation. Most times when people are that
controlling and abusive they want no one prying in their business and knowing
what's going on.

I also was ignorant of the church advocating whipping young children and the
things I read about in the last few days.

I was not ignorant that abuse takes place at all. I know very well first
hand about that. But I wasn't abused because I was willfully disobedient or
wore make up or short dresses or didn't do chores or was disrespectful. I
made sure I did nothing to make my father angry. But nevertheless, I walked
too loudly across the floor, I took too long in the shower. I didn't scrub
the baseboards just right, the dish water wasn't quite hot enough. Not
anything to do with church doctrine or their religious beliefs at all.

glena


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[email protected]

In a message dated 4/12/2003 12:39:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
sorcha-aisling@... writes:

> Do you even unschool??? I'm getting a headache here. If you unschool,
> then you yourself should be offended by people who neglect their
> children and call it unschooling.

Yes, I'm learning to be better at it though. I am also offended by anyone
who neglects their children for any reason and for whatever they call it.

glena


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[email protected]

In a message dated 4/12/2003 12:28:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
mamaxaos@... writes:

> I do wonder about the accuracy of your observations/judgments of the
> referenced families as well as your motive in referring to them as
> unschooling families.
>

They refer to themselves as unschoolers. Until very recently I thought they
were the example of "unschooling". They were the only people I had ever come
in contact with that used the term unschooling. They are definitely not
unschoolers after I've come to read and read and listen and learn here.

But you are right, if they don't cause a big enough problem, then it's not
really a problem. Other than I only found out about REAL unschooling quite
by accident (or maybe not) when I was reading Sandra's website as offered
by someone in a regular homeschool group. So there are probably others who
think the same thing I did about unschooling. Probably not enough to hurt
unschooling as a group, but maybe enough to keep someone else away from the
true joy that can come from it.

No way to control what people call it though, you are right.

glena


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[email protected]

In a message dated 4/12/2003 2:15:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:

> Well you already HAVE said something about them. Do they exist?
> Did they unschool (by theirs or anyone's definition) for their kids' entire
>
> homeschooling time, or did they take non-readers out of school in later
> years
> and ignore them and say "unschooling"?
>

These children have never in their lives been to school. They occasionally
go to Sunday School and Church. They most definitely exist. When the mother
decided to return to work a few years ago she asked me to let the one child
stay with me during the day. I asked about school. She told me that the
child (then 14 and court ordered to be supervised) really needed nothing in
the way of school. He would find a way to amuse himself all day. She went on
to tell me that if I needed something done, dishes, lawn mowed, vacuuming,
ANYTHING, I was to ask him, that's what he was used to. It was short term,
the child asked me to help him learn to read. She didn't like that and
explained they were "unschoolers" and what it meant to her.

I also want to apologize for speaking for you to the group. It was wrong. I
should have just said that it MIGHT offend anyone who lovingly raises their
children in an unschooling environment to have people describe this kind of
environment as unschooling.

Again, I am very sorry for even attempting to speak for you or anyone else in
the group.

glena


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Pamela Sorooshian

You just did what you accuse Sandra of doing. You just referred to them
as radical 'christian homeschoolers" -- so I guess you think referring
to that group we've been talking about as "christian homeschoolers" is
okay if you put "radical" in front of it?

That does NOT work because there are quite a few "radical Christians"
and the implicit meaning there is that they work for social justice and
are "progressives" in the political sense. Adding "radical" just
confuses things.

-pam


On Saturday, April 12, 2003, at 09:03 AM, rubyprincesstsg@... wrote:

> Either way, I'm VERY glad that others have decided to not lump me in
> with
> that group of radical "christian homeschoolers" that I suspect would
> probably
> STILL raise their children the very same way they do without a church
> or
> "religion" but find the church a comfortable excuse or the acceptance
> of
> their behaviours somehow reassuring.

Pamela Sorooshian

On Saturday, April 12, 2003, at 09:03 AM, rubyprincesstsg@... wrote:

> BUT if I were to say things about these unschoolers as fact, I'm sure
> that
> Sandra would feel the need to point out that they are NOT unschoolers
> in her
> sense of the word.

So - why not say that those "Christian Homeschoolers" are not, in your
opinion, Christians. Then LEAVE it at that. Sheesh.

> You don't want others to misunderstand or think you
> approve or accept things like rods with names, whipping babies to
> change them
> and the like.
>
You know - ONE post saying, "I just feel the need to mention that those
of us on this list who are Christians find those behaviors just as
appalling as you do." If you felt it necessary to say ANYTHING, why
not just say that one thing? Why carry on and on? As it turns out, you
didn't know what you were talking about. Now you know more. That has
happened before. Maybe you should learn to ask questions, politely,
before you get all defensive and post inflammatory messages.

> Last time I'm gonna try to explain why it is offensive to be grouped
> in with
> these radicals. If it didn't offend you, I'm glad, it does bother me
> enough
> to make sure no one thinks I am a part of that.

Hundreds of posts later -- I do not believe you really honestly felt
that this post was necessary to make sure nobody thinks you are part of
that. I don't believe it. I don't know why you felt it necessary to say
this again, but there is simply no way you could still honestly think
that anybody on this list is not already aware of your position.

-pam