Christians again
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/8/03 2:43:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
Christians, it seems. Making fun of extreme religious people by posting
mocking websites("very Christian, very crazy"), making blanket statements
about what Christians will do, about being offended at shows, or inviting
your kids and then you to church if you are baptist. Calling them irritating
Jesus Freaks, Christian nuts, do I need to go on?
I watch Friends and Will and Grace, I see no problem with them, my children
are free to watch. And I don't shame my children. Homosexuality is something
I refuse to judge. It's not my place. Any other stereotypes I've neglected?
Is it PC to be prejudiced against Christians? It stings, and it really
interferes with the impression of some folks who are supposed to be so
open-minded and loving to their kids. I am having a hard time accepting
mentors here could be so careless with generalizations about people I love
and know, and the person I am. The fact that even one person reads here to
learn about being an unschooler and is a fundamentalist, southern baptist,
bible literalist, shows that we aren't all alike, and aren't deserving of the
little jabs.
I hope I am wrong on this, but I will not sit back and let it go unchecked
any longer. From someone that takes a lot to get offended, and tries not to
be offensive. If I didn't care so much about this list, I couldn't be this
honest.
From my heart,
Ang
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
> Friends is more about unmarried sex. I just blame that on New York. ;-)This makes me want to unsub this list. Frequently there is a comment bashing
>
> If I were homeschooling because of being fundamentalist Christians those
> shows would both be really offensive to me, I'm sure. And I would shame
> Holly for even WANTING to watch them.
>
> But I'm not a fundamentalist Christian, and I don't want to shame Holly.
>
Christians, it seems. Making fun of extreme religious people by posting
mocking websites("very Christian, very crazy"), making blanket statements
about what Christians will do, about being offended at shows, or inviting
your kids and then you to church if you are baptist. Calling them irritating
Jesus Freaks, Christian nuts, do I need to go on?
I watch Friends and Will and Grace, I see no problem with them, my children
are free to watch. And I don't shame my children. Homosexuality is something
I refuse to judge. It's not my place. Any other stereotypes I've neglected?
Is it PC to be prejudiced against Christians? It stings, and it really
interferes with the impression of some folks who are supposed to be so
open-minded and loving to their kids. I am having a hard time accepting
mentors here could be so careless with generalizations about people I love
and know, and the person I am. The fact that even one person reads here to
learn about being an unschooler and is a fundamentalist, southern baptist,
bible literalist, shows that we aren't all alike, and aren't deserving of the
little jabs.
I hope I am wrong on this, but I will not sit back and let it go unchecked
any longer. From someone that takes a lot to get offended, and tries not to
be offensive. If I didn't care so much about this list, I couldn't be this
honest.
From my heart,
Ang
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/9/03 10:25:20 PM, unolist@... writes:
<< > If I were homeschooling because of being fundamentalist Christians those
IF what I said doesn't characterize hundreds of thousands of Christian
families, then unsub.
If it does, then get over it.
<<Frequently there is a comment bashing
Christians, it seems.>>
How much have you read about Christian homeschoolers?
If the answer is "not much," you need to do so. It would not only release
some of your frustration, it would keep you from posting in defense anymore.
<<I watch Friends and Will and Grace, I see no problem with them, my
children
are free to watch. And I don't shame my children. >>
Are you homeschooling because you are a fundamentalist Christian?
I doubt it.
You probably would be using a full-on Christian curriculum.
If you are NOT homeschooling because you are a fundamentalist Christian, as
so many thousands of women ARE doing, many against their will (I'm dead
serious), then there was no reason for you to get huffy, because I wasn't
talking about you at all.
<<The fact that even one person reads here to
learn about being an unschooler and is a fundamentalist, southern baptist,
bible literalist, shows that we aren't all alike, and aren't deserving of the
little jabs.>>
I grew up a fundamentalist Southern Baptist Bible literalist, so guess what?
I know what I'm talking about.
<< I hope I am wrong on this, but I will not sit back and let it go unchecked
any longer.>>
Sit back. This, too, comes up periodically.
<<If I didn't care so much about this list, I couldn't be this honest. >>
I feel the very same way.
Any homeschooler who isn't fully aware of the immensity and offensiveness of
the fundamentalist homeschooling movement and its affect on ALL homeschooling
and the reputation of all homeschoolers is full-on handicapped in any
discussion about homeschooling.
Here, in case you want to read more.
I certainly won't blame you if you don't want to read it, but don't assume
others here are not better informed than you are, then.
http://www.homeschooldigest.com/
A quote from another site:
-=-The subject of homeschool came up quite often, with even my son ASKING me
to homeschool him. I said no way. God had different plans. He gave me a
burden. I was overwhelmed with the belief that I was missing out on His goals
for me and began to pray, search scripture and question what God had planned
for me. I was very uneasy and unsettled when I entered into another Bible
study. As God would have it, there were homeschool moms and their children in
the study with me. I can't remember them ever telling me I should homeschool,
but I loved their quiet spirits and submissive lives.-=-
Very typical quote. There are tons like it buried here and there on internet
sites.
Some women say they did NOT want to homeschool, but their husbands announced
that God had told them (husband) that they would be homeschooling, and so the
woman in obedience had no choice.
-=-http://www2.whidbey.com/jmboyes/HBW-2.htm-=-
"By keeping in mind that we are homeschooling out of obedience, not preference
, our family has avoided becoming discouraged when things become difficult."
" "Obviously those who argue that parents should educate their own children
are trying to take seriously the biblical teaching." He even sets aside the
arguments of those who do not believe parents can do the job. "We must not
use our supposed incompetence or lack of time as an excuse for disobedience
to a biblical command. If we have problems and difficulties in obeying the
commandment, then we should seek ways to overcome them. Our responsibilities
as parents cannot be simply brushed aside.""
I just brought this one because it's interesting:
betrothal dresses, and homeschooling clothes
CUSTOM SEWING by
Lydia of Purple:
http://www.modestapparelchristianclothing
lydiaofpurpledressescustomsewing.com/
Clothing sewn by Christian Seamstresses. Sewing Custom Patterns - Dresses:
Original Wedding, Betrothal, Attire; Long, Cape; Maternity, Ladies Homebirth
Nursing wear; homeschooling children clothes; Jumpers, blouse-slips, skirts,
blouses, matching garments, American Girl 18", under-garments, bloomers,
flannel nightgowns, veils and more. Some call these old fashioned dresses or
women's vintage fashion.
Over forty years experience guarantees you an excellent fit. Newsletter, too!
Sandra
<< > If I were homeschooling because of being fundamentalist Christians those
> shows would both be really offensive to me, I'm sure. And I would shameUnolist said that made her want to unsub.
> Holly for even WANTING to watch them.
>
> But I'm not a fundamentalist Christian, and I don't want to shame Holly. >>
IF what I said doesn't characterize hundreds of thousands of Christian
families, then unsub.
If it does, then get over it.
<<Frequently there is a comment bashing
Christians, it seems.>>
How much have you read about Christian homeschoolers?
If the answer is "not much," you need to do so. It would not only release
some of your frustration, it would keep you from posting in defense anymore.
<<I watch Friends and Will and Grace, I see no problem with them, my
children
are free to watch. And I don't shame my children. >>
Are you homeschooling because you are a fundamentalist Christian?
I doubt it.
You probably would be using a full-on Christian curriculum.
If you are NOT homeschooling because you are a fundamentalist Christian, as
so many thousands of women ARE doing, many against their will (I'm dead
serious), then there was no reason for you to get huffy, because I wasn't
talking about you at all.
<<The fact that even one person reads here to
learn about being an unschooler and is a fundamentalist, southern baptist,
bible literalist, shows that we aren't all alike, and aren't deserving of the
little jabs.>>
I grew up a fundamentalist Southern Baptist Bible literalist, so guess what?
I know what I'm talking about.
<< I hope I am wrong on this, but I will not sit back and let it go unchecked
any longer.>>
Sit back. This, too, comes up periodically.
<<If I didn't care so much about this list, I couldn't be this honest. >>
I feel the very same way.
Any homeschooler who isn't fully aware of the immensity and offensiveness of
the fundamentalist homeschooling movement and its affect on ALL homeschooling
and the reputation of all homeschoolers is full-on handicapped in any
discussion about homeschooling.
Here, in case you want to read more.
I certainly won't blame you if you don't want to read it, but don't assume
others here are not better informed than you are, then.
http://www.homeschooldigest.com/
A quote from another site:
-=-The subject of homeschool came up quite often, with even my son ASKING me
to homeschool him. I said no way. God had different plans. He gave me a
burden. I was overwhelmed with the belief that I was missing out on His goals
for me and began to pray, search scripture and question what God had planned
for me. I was very uneasy and unsettled when I entered into another Bible
study. As God would have it, there were homeschool moms and their children in
the study with me. I can't remember them ever telling me I should homeschool,
but I loved their quiet spirits and submissive lives.-=-
Very typical quote. There are tons like it buried here and there on internet
sites.
Some women say they did NOT want to homeschool, but their husbands announced
that God had told them (husband) that they would be homeschooling, and so the
woman in obedience had no choice.
-=-http://www2.whidbey.com/jmboyes/HBW-2.htm-=-
"By keeping in mind that we are homeschooling out of obedience, not preference
, our family has avoided becoming discouraged when things become difficult."
" "Obviously those who argue that parents should educate their own children
are trying to take seriously the biblical teaching." He even sets aside the
arguments of those who do not believe parents can do the job. "We must not
use our supposed incompetence or lack of time as an excuse for disobedience
to a biblical command. If we have problems and difficulties in obeying the
commandment, then we should seek ways to overcome them. Our responsibilities
as parents cannot be simply brushed aside.""
I just brought this one because it's interesting:
betrothal dresses, and homeschooling clothes
CUSTOM SEWING by
Lydia of Purple:
http://www.modestapparelchristianclothing
lydiaofpurpledressescustomsewing.com/
Clothing sewn by Christian Seamstresses. Sewing Custom Patterns - Dresses:
Original Wedding, Betrothal, Attire; Long, Cape; Maternity, Ladies Homebirth
Nursing wear; homeschooling children clothes; Jumpers, blouse-slips, skirts,
blouses, matching garments, American Girl 18", under-garments, bloomers,
flannel nightgowns, veils and more. Some call these old fashioned dresses or
women's vintage fashion.
Over forty years experience guarantees you an excellent fit. Newsletter, too!
Sandra
Sorcha
Ang,
I was raised Pentecostal. I haven't been to all Pentecostal churches,
but let me tell you, the one I was raised in made me never set foot in
another one. It was all about "obedience" and spanking, and parents
would lament that it's no longer legal to stone disobedient children as
it was in Biblical days.
When my husband and I were married, we lived in Newark (Hanover,
actually, which is about two square miles). There was an Apostolic
church within a block of our home, and we started going there to meet
people. The women at the church homeschooled and I was excited because
even though I didn't have kids, I knew I'd homeschool them when I did.
Well, these women were downright scary. They had the most
poorly-behaved children I have ever met in my life, and they responded
to every misbehavior by screaming, "I'm going to spank you if you don't
stop what you're doing right now!" In twenty minutes, this would be
shouted out probably fifty times, and then kids would be grabbed by the
arm and spanked right there in front of everyone, and they'd immediately
start misbehaving again.
We spent two years living in Steubenville, and most of the homeschoolers
there are Catholic. Now, most of the Catholics I've known in my life
have been very relaxed about religion. But the Franciscan University of
Steubenville attracts the most uptight Catholics from around the country
and concentrates them in one town. Almost all of the women whose
husbands attend the Franciscan University homeschool. It would really
be funny to see the way they epitomize all the stereotypes of
"homeschoolers", except it isn't funny because it's real. And my mom is
a librarian in that town and she's against homeschooling because of it.
She knows I'm not even Christian, let alone fundamentalist, but she
can't think about homeschooling without thinking about these women
coming into the library with their poorly-adjusted children, and she's
convinced my kids will be "weird".
I think something like seventy percent of Americans are Christian. And
I know darn well seventy percent of Americans are not anything like the
fundamentalists I've met in my lifetime. Most Christians don't want to
be associated with the "Jesus Freaks", apparently yourself included.
Just like most Muslims don't want to be associated with the
fundamentalists in their religion either.
You say, >>>Making fun of extreme religious people<<<
There's a huge difference between extremely spiritual people and
extremely religious people. Spiritual people are some of the calmest,
most inspiring people in the world. Mother Theresa was an extremely
spiritual Catholic, and I don't know anyone of any religion who thought
she was a freak. Extremely religious people, on the other hand, are
often shrill, paranoid, and dangerous. Spiritual Christians believe
that God is Love and they believe the best thing they can do is be a
model of that love. Religious Christians believe that every word of the
Bible is infallible and they seek out people who aren't as "holy" as
they are, and persecute them. Spirituality is about one's relationship
with the Infinite. Religion is about being "right".
Even Jesus spoke out against the fundamentalists in his religion in his
time. He called them vipers and hypocrites.
You say, >>> prejudiced against Christians<<>>folks who are supposed to
be so
open-minded<<>>so careless with generalizations<<<
What I see is not people who know nothing about Christians being
prejudiced against the religion. What I see is that the people who are
most outspoken against Christianity are people who were raised in
fundamentalist homes and have a lot of negative experience with
fundamentalist Christians. One of the reasons televangelists are so
much more intolerant of Pagans and Wiccans than any other religion is
because most people are born into a religion, while the vast majority of
Pagans and Wiccans were raised Christian and left the religion
(ironically, because of people like the televangelists).
If being a Christian means that you love Jesus, wonderful. People who
truly love their God are beautiful people, whether their God is Jesus,
Allah, Krishna, Inanna, Isis, Freya. If being a Christian means that
you spank your kids and require obedience and submit to your husband and
think everyone is going to hell unless they're a member of your church,
which is the Only One Right and True interpretation of the Only One True
God, then I can't pretend that's not an ugly thing. Fundamentalism is
ugly whether it's Christians, or the Muslims who feel Allah wants them
to kill all "infidels" or the Pagan Aztecs who practiced human
sacrifice.
Gandhi was killed by a Hindu fundamentalist who opposed his idea of
tolerance between the Muslims and Hindus in India. Gandhi was an
example of a spiritual person. The person who killed him is an example
of a religious people.
I feel very strongly about this issue too.
Sorcha
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I was raised Pentecostal. I haven't been to all Pentecostal churches,
but let me tell you, the one I was raised in made me never set foot in
another one. It was all about "obedience" and spanking, and parents
would lament that it's no longer legal to stone disobedient children as
it was in Biblical days.
When my husband and I were married, we lived in Newark (Hanover,
actually, which is about two square miles). There was an Apostolic
church within a block of our home, and we started going there to meet
people. The women at the church homeschooled and I was excited because
even though I didn't have kids, I knew I'd homeschool them when I did.
Well, these women were downright scary. They had the most
poorly-behaved children I have ever met in my life, and they responded
to every misbehavior by screaming, "I'm going to spank you if you don't
stop what you're doing right now!" In twenty minutes, this would be
shouted out probably fifty times, and then kids would be grabbed by the
arm and spanked right there in front of everyone, and they'd immediately
start misbehaving again.
We spent two years living in Steubenville, and most of the homeschoolers
there are Catholic. Now, most of the Catholics I've known in my life
have been very relaxed about religion. But the Franciscan University of
Steubenville attracts the most uptight Catholics from around the country
and concentrates them in one town. Almost all of the women whose
husbands attend the Franciscan University homeschool. It would really
be funny to see the way they epitomize all the stereotypes of
"homeschoolers", except it isn't funny because it's real. And my mom is
a librarian in that town and she's against homeschooling because of it.
She knows I'm not even Christian, let alone fundamentalist, but she
can't think about homeschooling without thinking about these women
coming into the library with their poorly-adjusted children, and she's
convinced my kids will be "weird".
I think something like seventy percent of Americans are Christian. And
I know darn well seventy percent of Americans are not anything like the
fundamentalists I've met in my lifetime. Most Christians don't want to
be associated with the "Jesus Freaks", apparently yourself included.
Just like most Muslims don't want to be associated with the
fundamentalists in their religion either.
You say, >>>Making fun of extreme religious people<<<
There's a huge difference between extremely spiritual people and
extremely religious people. Spiritual people are some of the calmest,
most inspiring people in the world. Mother Theresa was an extremely
spiritual Catholic, and I don't know anyone of any religion who thought
she was a freak. Extremely religious people, on the other hand, are
often shrill, paranoid, and dangerous. Spiritual Christians believe
that God is Love and they believe the best thing they can do is be a
model of that love. Religious Christians believe that every word of the
Bible is infallible and they seek out people who aren't as "holy" as
they are, and persecute them. Spirituality is about one's relationship
with the Infinite. Religion is about being "right".
Even Jesus spoke out against the fundamentalists in his religion in his
time. He called them vipers and hypocrites.
You say, >>> prejudiced against Christians<<>>folks who are supposed to
be so
open-minded<<>>so careless with generalizations<<<
What I see is not people who know nothing about Christians being
prejudiced against the religion. What I see is that the people who are
most outspoken against Christianity are people who were raised in
fundamentalist homes and have a lot of negative experience with
fundamentalist Christians. One of the reasons televangelists are so
much more intolerant of Pagans and Wiccans than any other religion is
because most people are born into a religion, while the vast majority of
Pagans and Wiccans were raised Christian and left the religion
(ironically, because of people like the televangelists).
If being a Christian means that you love Jesus, wonderful. People who
truly love their God are beautiful people, whether their God is Jesus,
Allah, Krishna, Inanna, Isis, Freya. If being a Christian means that
you spank your kids and require obedience and submit to your husband and
think everyone is going to hell unless they're a member of your church,
which is the Only One Right and True interpretation of the Only One True
God, then I can't pretend that's not an ugly thing. Fundamentalism is
ugly whether it's Christians, or the Muslims who feel Allah wants them
to kill all "infidels" or the Pagan Aztecs who practiced human
sacrifice.
Gandhi was killed by a Hindu fundamentalist who opposed his idea of
tolerance between the Muslims and Hindus in India. Gandhi was an
example of a spiritual person. The person who killed him is an example
of a religious people.
I feel very strongly about this issue too.
Sorcha
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/10/2003 1:05:28 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
we all have choices, hers is to be the wife the Bible describes) to
homeschool does not mean she does do it just as well as any of us.
I seem to get from the sense of the post that unless you are homeschooling
for reasons other than religion you probably aren't doing it for the RIGHT
reasons.
Christian parents love their children just as much as any other way of life.
There are some bad examples in EVERY walk of life, not just a group
generalization.
I remember just last week someone cautioning me to avoid generalizations when
it came to mothers in particular because there is no way to make a blanket
statement about mothers and love that it true. I believe the same would be
true for Christian homeschoolers.
I'm Christian too, I grew up very strict Baptist, the church is NOT the same
as it was 25 years ago. It's not a cult that controls the minds of the women
and children. There are things that are different than what others do, but
that is the basis for all religions, difference and tolerance for that
difference.
No one group of people is hurting homeschooling anymore than another group.
One group might be more VOCAL about how/why they homeschool than others but
is the REASON really what's important?
Isn't it about giving our children the best life we know how to? Within our
belief system?
I'm sure there are those that are a detriment to homeschooling simply BECAUSE
of being a fundamentalist Christian, I know I can name one right now. On the
surface it appears that's why she tries to homeschool her grandchildren one
by one until they rebel. But I know the woman, it's not about keeping them
from the "worldly" things of school at all. It's about control, it's about
being needed and loved and the little preschool toddlers and then young
elementary age children need and love her as long as she doesn't let them out
of her sight and she can baby them into submission.
So to everyone else, it looks like these kids get a bum education for five,
six or more years because the woman is a Christian devoted to her
grandchildren but unless you are really around the person, you wouldn't know
what REALLY drives them and why they really aren't very good at allowing
their children (grandchildren) to grow and learn and explore the world.
There are probably any number of homeschooling parents who are inadequately
equipped to be preparing their children for life they just aren't vocal about
it maybe.
So I can understand why the post was hurtful because it is referred to again
and again. Seems like if someone has a bad experience in their life somehow
with it or they've heard or read or seen it makes it a fact. It is a fact
but not necessarily applies to EVERYONE in those circumstances.
I've found Christians to be wonderfully warm, intelligent, loving, caring
people. They love their kids, they want the absolute best for them, just
like I do. (most of them anyway)
Just stating my observations.
glena who can see how it might upset someone to keep getting talked about in
generalities especially such ugly ones
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
> Some women say they did NOT want to homeschool, but their husbands announcedBUT, just because it was the husbands idea (and she really DOES have choices,
>
> that God had told them (husband) that they would be homeschooling, and so
> the
> woman in obedience had no choice.
>
we all have choices, hers is to be the wife the Bible describes) to
homeschool does not mean she does do it just as well as any of us.
I seem to get from the sense of the post that unless you are homeschooling
for reasons other than religion you probably aren't doing it for the RIGHT
reasons.
Christian parents love their children just as much as any other way of life.
There are some bad examples in EVERY walk of life, not just a group
generalization.
I remember just last week someone cautioning me to avoid generalizations when
it came to mothers in particular because there is no way to make a blanket
statement about mothers and love that it true. I believe the same would be
true for Christian homeschoolers.
I'm Christian too, I grew up very strict Baptist, the church is NOT the same
as it was 25 years ago. It's not a cult that controls the minds of the women
and children. There are things that are different than what others do, but
that is the basis for all religions, difference and tolerance for that
difference.
No one group of people is hurting homeschooling anymore than another group.
One group might be more VOCAL about how/why they homeschool than others but
is the REASON really what's important?
Isn't it about giving our children the best life we know how to? Within our
belief system?
I'm sure there are those that are a detriment to homeschooling simply BECAUSE
of being a fundamentalist Christian, I know I can name one right now. On the
surface it appears that's why she tries to homeschool her grandchildren one
by one until they rebel. But I know the woman, it's not about keeping them
from the "worldly" things of school at all. It's about control, it's about
being needed and loved and the little preschool toddlers and then young
elementary age children need and love her as long as she doesn't let them out
of her sight and she can baby them into submission.
So to everyone else, it looks like these kids get a bum education for five,
six or more years because the woman is a Christian devoted to her
grandchildren but unless you are really around the person, you wouldn't know
what REALLY drives them and why they really aren't very good at allowing
their children (grandchildren) to grow and learn and explore the world.
There are probably any number of homeschooling parents who are inadequately
equipped to be preparing their children for life they just aren't vocal about
it maybe.
So I can understand why the post was hurtful because it is referred to again
and again. Seems like if someone has a bad experience in their life somehow
with it or they've heard or read or seen it makes it a fact. It is a fact
but not necessarily applies to EVERYONE in those circumstances.
I've found Christians to be wonderfully warm, intelligent, loving, caring
people. They love their kids, they want the absolute best for them, just
like I do. (most of them anyway)
Just stating my observations.
glena who can see how it might upset someone to keep getting talked about in
generalities especially such ugly ones
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/10/2003 8:48:46 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
rubyprincesstsg@... writes:
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
rubyprincesstsg@... writes:
> No one group of people is hurting homeschooling anymore than another group.You need to do some more research on this subject!
> One group might be more VOCAL about how/why they homeschool than others but
>
> is the REASON really what's important?
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kelly Lenhart
Many Pagans have gotten into the habit of differntiating between
fundamentalist Christians (who hold a strict interpretation of the Bible and
are reasonable, loving people, even if they think those of other faiths are
"wrong) and "fundy" Christians (who are the extremists who many of us are
reacting to here.) What's important to remember, as Sorcha pointed
out---there are "fundies" in any faith. We have them in paganism on both
ends of the spectrum--rigid thinking exists everywhere.
I try to stay away from fundy thinking in ANY arena. But I have learned
that simply being a fundamentalist Christian does NOT make you a fundy. I
try very hard to be clear which I mean when speaking about Christians. I
will however, speak out against fundism anywhere I see it.
Kelly
fundamentalist Christians (who hold a strict interpretation of the Bible and
are reasonable, loving people, even if they think those of other faiths are
"wrong) and "fundy" Christians (who are the extremists who many of us are
reacting to here.) What's important to remember, as Sorcha pointed
out---there are "fundies" in any faith. We have them in paganism on both
ends of the spectrum--rigid thinking exists everywhere.
I try to stay away from fundy thinking in ANY arena. But I have learned
that simply being a fundamentalist Christian does NOT make you a fundy. I
try very hard to be clear which I mean when speaking about Christians. I
will however, speak out against fundism anywhere I see it.
Kelly
coyote's corner
Well put.
Well said.
I couldn't have said it better!!
Janis
a happy pagan (who was raised Catholic and spent some time as a novice)
Well said.
I couldn't have said it better!!
Janis
a happy pagan (who was raised Catholic and spent some time as a novice)
----- Original Message -----
From: Sorcha
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2003 8:33 AM
Subject: RE: [Unschooling-dotcom] Christians again
Ang,
I was raised Pentecostal. I haven't been to all Pentecostal churches,
but let me tell you, the one I was raised in made me never set foot in
another one. It was all about "obedience" and spanking, and parents
would lament that it's no longer legal to stone disobedient children as
it was in Biblical days.
When my husband and I were married, we lived in Newark (Hanover,
actually, which is about two square miles). There was an Apostolic
church within a block of our home, and we started going there to meet
people. The women at the church homeschooled and I was excited because
even though I didn't have kids, I knew I'd homeschool them when I did.
Well, these women were downright scary. They had the most
poorly-behaved children I have ever met in my life, and they responded
to every misbehavior by screaming, "I'm going to spank you if you don't
stop what you're doing right now!" In twenty minutes, this would be
shouted out probably fifty times, and then kids would be grabbed by the
arm and spanked right there in front of everyone, and they'd immediately
start misbehaving again.
We spent two years living in Steubenville, and most of the homeschoolers
there are Catholic. Now, most of the Catholics I've known in my life
have been very relaxed about religion. But the Franciscan University of
Steubenville attracts the most uptight Catholics from around the country
and concentrates them in one town. Almost all of the women whose
husbands attend the Franciscan University homeschool. It would really
be funny to see the way they epitomize all the stereotypes of
"homeschoolers", except it isn't funny because it's real. And my mom is
a librarian in that town and she's against homeschooling because of it.
She knows I'm not even Christian, let alone fundamentalist, but she
can't think about homeschooling without thinking about these women
coming into the library with their poorly-adjusted children, and she's
convinced my kids will be "weird".
I think something like seventy percent of Americans are Christian. And
I know darn well seventy percent of Americans are not anything like the
fundamentalists I've met in my lifetime. Most Christians don't want to
be associated with the "Jesus Freaks", apparently yourself included.
Just like most Muslims don't want to be associated with the
fundamentalists in their religion either.
You say, >>>Making fun of extreme religious people<<<
There's a huge difference between extremely spiritual people and
extremely religious people. Spiritual people are some of the calmest,
most inspiring people in the world. Mother Theresa was an extremely
spiritual Catholic, and I don't know anyone of any religion who thought
she was a freak. Extremely religious people, on the other hand, are
often shrill, paranoid, and dangerous. Spiritual Christians believe
that God is Love and they believe the best thing they can do is be a
model of that love. Religious Christians believe that every word of the
Bible is infallible and they seek out people who aren't as "holy" as
they are, and persecute them. Spirituality is about one's relationship
with the Infinite. Religion is about being "right".
Even Jesus spoke out against the fundamentalists in his religion in his
time. He called them vipers and hypocrites.
You say, >>> prejudiced against Christians<<>>folks who are supposed to
be so
open-minded<<>>so careless with generalizations<<<
What I see is not people who know nothing about Christians being
prejudiced against the religion. What I see is that the people who are
most outspoken against Christianity are people who were raised in
fundamentalist homes and have a lot of negative experience with
fundamentalist Christians. One of the reasons televangelists are so
much more intolerant of Pagans and Wiccans than any other religion is
because most people are born into a religion, while the vast majority of
Pagans and Wiccans were raised Christian and left the religion
(ironically, because of people like the televangelists).
If being a Christian means that you love Jesus, wonderful. People who
truly love their God are beautiful people, whether their God is Jesus,
Allah, Krishna, Inanna, Isis, Freya. If being a Christian means that
you spank your kids and require obedience and submit to your husband and
think everyone is going to hell unless they're a member of your church,
which is the Only One Right and True interpretation of the Only One True
God, then I can't pretend that's not an ugly thing. Fundamentalism is
ugly whether it's Christians, or the Muslims who feel Allah wants them
to kill all "infidels" or the Pagan Aztecs who practiced human
sacrifice.
Gandhi was killed by a Hindu fundamentalist who opposed his idea of
tolerance between the Muslims and Hindus in India. Gandhi was an
example of a spiritual person. The person who killed him is an example
of a religious people.
I feel very strongly about this issue too.
Sorcha
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list owner, Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address an email to:
[email protected]
Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
Now from the point of view of some one who is born again, but against "church's policy" still has a great respect for any and all religions and from some one who spanks -as discipline not torture or abuse - their children. Let me weigh in here.
First off, You will find zealots in any and ALL religion, belief structures, no matter where that will make it an automatic turn off. It happened to me. For years I refused to set foot into a church. I felt that they were all just a bunch of Sunday Christians and every day devils. At least that is how the majority of so called Christians I met acted. My current church is so much different and I do thank God that I was able to find it. But I think the thing that people miss and forget is that Jesus was not teaching a religion as He was a way of life. The same holds true for ANY belief system. It is a way of life that most people forget and that's what leads to all the conflicts and hypocrisies that we are all witness to each day.
Another thing is a total and complete lack of information and down right ignorance. I LOVE to learn and be exposed to different belief structures. You get to see just how everything is interconnected on the most basic of levels. We each believe in an omniscient, omnipotent being who bestows love and peace and guidance unto the followers of the belief structure. But I am digressing here, :o)
As for the spanking part. I use it as a last resort. If they get spanked once a month the get spanked a lot. Besides it does not work all the time and with each child. For my son, I have to put him in a corner and let him have time to reflect on what he has done. Within a minute I get an attitude adjustment from him. For the older children I take away something they like or revoke something. That gets their attention in no time flat. The little one, with certain things I am still finding her threshold. She is stubborn one and can try the patience of a saint when she is ready. But I feel it has its place. I know what it means to be abused. So does their father. And he does not like me to spank them for anything, but seeing as I am the disciplinarian, he just respectfully bows out, :o)
Don't let a bad experience with one group of Christians make you feel that all are crazy belt toting wild eyed people who beat their children at the drop of a hat for no good reason. We are out here and find moderation for what we do.
I see that there are wiccans here? I have been trying to find out more about that belief system. I am not looking to convert mind you, but I am just fascinated by the different theologies in this very small world and want to learn as much as possible. So my email is yhanley@... if you are willing to share I am more than willing to listen :o))
Yoki
I cried unto the Lord with my voice,
and He heard me out of His holy hill.
Selah
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
First off, You will find zealots in any and ALL religion, belief structures, no matter where that will make it an automatic turn off. It happened to me. For years I refused to set foot into a church. I felt that they were all just a bunch of Sunday Christians and every day devils. At least that is how the majority of so called Christians I met acted. My current church is so much different and I do thank God that I was able to find it. But I think the thing that people miss and forget is that Jesus was not teaching a religion as He was a way of life. The same holds true for ANY belief system. It is a way of life that most people forget and that's what leads to all the conflicts and hypocrisies that we are all witness to each day.
Another thing is a total and complete lack of information and down right ignorance. I LOVE to learn and be exposed to different belief structures. You get to see just how everything is interconnected on the most basic of levels. We each believe in an omniscient, omnipotent being who bestows love and peace and guidance unto the followers of the belief structure. But I am digressing here, :o)
As for the spanking part. I use it as a last resort. If they get spanked once a month the get spanked a lot. Besides it does not work all the time and with each child. For my son, I have to put him in a corner and let him have time to reflect on what he has done. Within a minute I get an attitude adjustment from him. For the older children I take away something they like or revoke something. That gets their attention in no time flat. The little one, with certain things I am still finding her threshold. She is stubborn one and can try the patience of a saint when she is ready. But I feel it has its place. I know what it means to be abused. So does their father. And he does not like me to spank them for anything, but seeing as I am the disciplinarian, he just respectfully bows out, :o)
Don't let a bad experience with one group of Christians make you feel that all are crazy belt toting wild eyed people who beat their children at the drop of a hat for no good reason. We are out here and find moderation for what we do.
I see that there are wiccans here? I have been trying to find out more about that belief system. I am not looking to convert mind you, but I am just fascinated by the different theologies in this very small world and want to learn as much as possible. So my email is yhanley@... if you are willing to share I am more than willing to listen :o))
Yoki
I cried unto the Lord with my voice,
and He heard me out of His holy hill.
Selah
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Fetteroll
The original remark made -- while I'd expect many to disagree and not see
the connection -- was loosely tied to parenting and unschooling.
That has segued into a defense of Christians in general. And could devolve
into a bashing of Christians or fundamentalists in general.
If fundamentalist Christians are to be a topic here, then lets discuss the
aspects of the movement that relate to homeschooling.
Joyce
Unschooling-dotcom moderator
the connection -- was loosely tied to parenting and unschooling.
That has segued into a defense of Christians in general. And could devolve
into a bashing of Christians or fundamentalists in general.
If fundamentalist Christians are to be a topic here, then lets discuss the
aspects of the movement that relate to homeschooling.
Joyce
Unschooling-dotcom moderator
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/10/03 1:05:29 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
offensive. I live in NC. Most of the homeschoolers I know are very
conservative. They do "school at home" using the Christian curriculum. They
spank and use the Bible to justify it. They are very shaming of their
children etc etc.
There is a large section of the Christian community who think, believe and
act this way. Not me personally so I don't take any offense. Maybe it would
be easier if you separated yourself from the comments. That is how I look at
it. I do not fit the "Christian Homeschooler" mold. And believe me there is
one.
Pam G.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
> How much have you read about Christian homeschoolers?I am a Christian but I don't find these conversations or comments to be
> If the answer is "not much," you need to do so. It would not only release
> some of your frustration, it would keep you from posting in defense
> anymore.
>
>
offensive. I live in NC. Most of the homeschoolers I know are very
conservative. They do "school at home" using the Christian curriculum. They
spank and use the Bible to justify it. They are very shaming of their
children etc etc.
There is a large section of the Christian community who think, believe and
act this way. Not me personally so I don't take any offense. Maybe it would
be easier if you separated yourself from the comments. That is how I look at
it. I do not fit the "Christian Homeschooler" mold. And believe me there is
one.
Pam G.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Vicki A. Dennis
rubyprincess wrote:
"I grew up very strict Baptist, the church is NOT the same
as it was 25 years ago. It's not a cult that controls the minds of the women
and children."
I disagree about both sentences. Baptist in the past probably had as many variations as homeschooling does today. I grew up Southern Baptist in the 50's and 60's. Member churches of the Southern Baptist Convention were "stricter" than "northern" Baptists but not as fundamentalist as "foot-washing Baptists" or "mountain Baptists" or even "Independent Baptists". Individual churches in the Southern Baptist Convention were independent and individuals WITHIN those churches were also expected to be independently accountable for interpretations of the Bible and for church government structure. The churches were joined together for political and financial purposes (such as providing support for "missionaries") or even occasional lobbying at local, state, or federal levels (and not all members agreed on all issues but they were indeed asked whether they wished to join in on different issues). In some churches and within the church culture there was indeed sometimes an appearance of "cultism" (a concept not easily recognized then) but in many churches there was also an empowering of women and children far beyond some Protestant denominations. For example, I had a full vote in church decisions while still a 10 year old female. These decisions could include whether to accept someone into "full fellowship" either "by promise of letter" or "profession of faith"; or to "withdraw fellowship" from those who had lost their way. Even a full vote in determining whether a particular person had indeed been "called" to lead the congregation as a pastor, minister of music, or youth leader. As well as a vote in determining the salary of church workers and where a particular "love offering" would be sent.
There WAS an expectation of "witnessing" to the "unsaved" as well as being careful about getting "unequally yoked", just as there were rife rumors about the practices of other denominations but there was not the current structure of having a very large organization placing particular faith and action requirements on individual churches or even national "leaders" claiming authority over individuals within or without a particular church congregation. Evangelists and revivals, yes......but always with an awareness that as Baptists there was no earthly intermediary between God/Jesus and the individual.
I find today's Southern Baptist Churches to be WAY more intolerant than some strict Baptists of 25 years ago. Also, with the admonition that schools AND colleges expecting support within the convention are permitted to hire only teachers who support Biblical Inerrancy (as interpreted by leaders and not individuals), I find it hard to escape the perception that there is certainly an attempt to control the minds of children and youth.
That's my take on the "organized" Baptists of today. Of course anyone can say "I am a Baptist" just as easily as saying "I homeschool". It is when certain individuals or small groups claim the authority to define the meaning of either term and heavily proselytize the one true way that big problems arise.
Vicki
P.S.: I agree that those who object to the phrase "homeschool BECAUSE you are a fundamentalist Christian" need to educate themselves via personal research. And also agree with Kelly that stating "> No one group of people is hurting homeschooling anymore than another group.
"I grew up very strict Baptist, the church is NOT the same
as it was 25 years ago. It's not a cult that controls the minds of the women
and children."
I disagree about both sentences. Baptist in the past probably had as many variations as homeschooling does today. I grew up Southern Baptist in the 50's and 60's. Member churches of the Southern Baptist Convention were "stricter" than "northern" Baptists but not as fundamentalist as "foot-washing Baptists" or "mountain Baptists" or even "Independent Baptists". Individual churches in the Southern Baptist Convention were independent and individuals WITHIN those churches were also expected to be independently accountable for interpretations of the Bible and for church government structure. The churches were joined together for political and financial purposes (such as providing support for "missionaries") or even occasional lobbying at local, state, or federal levels (and not all members agreed on all issues but they were indeed asked whether they wished to join in on different issues). In some churches and within the church culture there was indeed sometimes an appearance of "cultism" (a concept not easily recognized then) but in many churches there was also an empowering of women and children far beyond some Protestant denominations. For example, I had a full vote in church decisions while still a 10 year old female. These decisions could include whether to accept someone into "full fellowship" either "by promise of letter" or "profession of faith"; or to "withdraw fellowship" from those who had lost their way. Even a full vote in determining whether a particular person had indeed been "called" to lead the congregation as a pastor, minister of music, or youth leader. As well as a vote in determining the salary of church workers and where a particular "love offering" would be sent.
There WAS an expectation of "witnessing" to the "unsaved" as well as being careful about getting "unequally yoked", just as there were rife rumors about the practices of other denominations but there was not the current structure of having a very large organization placing particular faith and action requirements on individual churches or even national "leaders" claiming authority over individuals within or without a particular church congregation. Evangelists and revivals, yes......but always with an awareness that as Baptists there was no earthly intermediary between God/Jesus and the individual.
I find today's Southern Baptist Churches to be WAY more intolerant than some strict Baptists of 25 years ago. Also, with the admonition that schools AND colleges expecting support within the convention are permitted to hire only teachers who support Biblical Inerrancy (as interpreted by leaders and not individuals), I find it hard to escape the perception that there is certainly an attempt to control the minds of children and youth.
That's my take on the "organized" Baptists of today. Of course anyone can say "I am a Baptist" just as easily as saying "I homeschool". It is when certain individuals or small groups claim the authority to define the meaning of either term and heavily proselytize the one true way that big problems arise.
Vicki
P.S.: I agree that those who object to the phrase "homeschool BECAUSE you are a fundamentalist Christian" need to educate themselves via personal research. And also agree with Kelly that stating "> No one group of people is hurting homeschooling anymore than another group.
> One group might be more VOCAL about how/why they homeschool than others but
>
> is the REASON really what's important?" to be a very definite indicator that more historical research is needed.
----- Original Message -----
From: rubyprincesstsg@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2003 7:44 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Christians again
I'm Christian too, I grew up very strict Baptist, the church is NOT the same
as it was 25 years ago. It's not a cult that controls the minds of the women
and children.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/10/03 11:34:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
yhanley@... writes:
really understand the ramifications and see how what they are doing is
hurting others, or are they "adjusting the behavior" to be rid of the
punishment or in fear of the punishment?
Just something to think about
Pam G.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
yhanley@... writes:
> As for the spanking part. I use it as a last resort. If they get spankedAre they "adjusting their behavior" because they see what they are doing and
> once a month the get spanked a lot. Besides it does not work all the time
> and with each child. For my son, I have to put him in a corner and let him
> have time to reflect on what he has done. Within a minute I get an attitude
> adjustment from him. For the older children I take away something they like
> or revoke something. That gets their attention in no time flat.
really understand the ramifications and see how what they are doing is
hurting others, or are they "adjusting the behavior" to be rid of the
punishment or in fear of the punishment?
Just something to think about
Pam G.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Tim and Maureen
----- Original Message -----
From: Fetteroll
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2003 8:23 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Christians again
If fundamentalist Christians are to be a topic here, then lets discuss the
aspects of the movement that relate to homeschooling.
I'm guessing here but it seems to me the real topic is about respect for people. My take on unschooling is that it is about trust,respect, freedom to grow, be healthy in spirit, body and mind and advocating for childrens rights to be treated as every individual deserves and if a set of values or beliefs interferes with that I for one will not support the theory that everyone is where they are at and that is okay. I'm all for letting it be known that children need to be treated without violence,coercion or control.
maureen
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list owner, Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address an email to:
[email protected]
Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sorcha
Spanking is not "discipline". It's punishment. It actually interferes
with the development of discipline. When my parents spanked me, I
didn't think, "Gee, I should behave better." I thought, "My parents are
jerks and I hate them." Things would calm down and I would like them
again for awhile, but all those spankings over all those years built up
a huge level of resentment. When I was a teenager, my mom could not
understand where all the "sudden" hate I had for her was coming from.
Taking away things that are important to you children is also
punishment, not discipline. When my mom did that to me, I hated her for
it. I also learned to always be on guard, and never let her know that
something was truly important to me.
Sorcha
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
with the development of discipline. When my parents spanked me, I
didn't think, "Gee, I should behave better." I thought, "My parents are
jerks and I hate them." Things would calm down and I would like them
again for awhile, but all those spankings over all those years built up
a huge level of resentment. When I was a teenager, my mom could not
understand where all the "sudden" hate I had for her was coming from.
Taking away things that are important to you children is also
punishment, not discipline. When my mom did that to me, I hated her for
it. I also learned to always be on guard, and never let her know that
something was truly important to me.
Sorcha
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
At first that is what he was doing, adjusting behaviour to get out of the punishment. But afterwards I would ask him if he understood why he was being punished and have him tell me. He would understand what he did and I would not have an issue for a while. He is a child so I do expect him to misbehave every so often, ;o)
Yoki
I cried unto the Lord with my voice,
and He heard me out of His holy hill.
Selah
Yoki
I cried unto the Lord with my voice,
and He heard me out of His holy hill.
Selah
----- Original Message -----
From: genant2@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2003 12:08 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Christians again
In a message dated 4/10/03 11:34:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
yhanley@... writes:
> As for the spanking part. I use it as a last resort. If they get spanked
> once a month the get spanked a lot. Besides it does not work all the time
> and with each child. For my son, I have to put him in a corner and let him
> have time to reflect on what he has done. Within a minute I get an attitude
> adjustment from him. For the older children I take away something they like
> or revoke something. That gets their attention in no time flat.
Are they "adjusting their behavior" because they see what they are doing and
really understand the ramifications and see how what they are doing is
hurting others, or are they "adjusting the behavior" to be rid of the
punishment or in fear of the punishment?
Just something to think about
Pam G.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list owner, Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address an email to:
[email protected]
Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/10/03 6:48:27 AM, rubyprincesstsg@... writes:
<< There are things that are different than what others do, but
that is the basis for all religions, difference and tolerance for that
difference. >>
This doesn't make sense to me. If it was important, please rephrase it.
<>I seem to get from the sense of the post that unless you are homeschooling
for reasons other than religion you probably aren't doing it for the RIGHT
reasons.>>>
If someone is homeschooling for religious reasons, it's about religion, not
about homeschooling. It's about isolating their children from evil Satanic
influences, and if you don't believe that, go to google.com and put in
statement of faith homeschooling and read for at least twenty minutes before
you write anything else like this:
<<BUT, just because it was the husbands idea (and she really DOES have
choices,
we all have choices, hers is to be the wife the Bible describes) to
homeschool does not mean she does do it just as well as any of us.>>
I don't think you wrote what you meant to write. Your post was contradictory
and could have used proofreading, but more than that it would have done you
more good to read those links than to just rattle on without learning more.
<<No one group of people is hurting homeschooling anymore than another group.
One group might be more VOCAL about how/why they homeschool than others but
is the REASON really what's important?>>
Read about HSLDA before you EVER again say no one group of people is hurting
homeschooling.
And YES I believe the reason is important.
I can't believe if you're willing to say the reason for homeschooling isn't
important that you would be unschooling. You think restrictive school at
home in an abusive family which teaches full-on reconstructed history and
made up science is as good as unschooling?
Sandra
<< There are things that are different than what others do, but
that is the basis for all religions, difference and tolerance for that
difference. >>
This doesn't make sense to me. If it was important, please rephrase it.
<>I seem to get from the sense of the post that unless you are homeschooling
for reasons other than religion you probably aren't doing it for the RIGHT
reasons.>>>
If someone is homeschooling for religious reasons, it's about religion, not
about homeschooling. It's about isolating their children from evil Satanic
influences, and if you don't believe that, go to google.com and put in
statement of faith homeschooling and read for at least twenty minutes before
you write anything else like this:
<<BUT, just because it was the husbands idea (and she really DOES have
choices,
we all have choices, hers is to be the wife the Bible describes) to
homeschool does not mean she does do it just as well as any of us.>>
I don't think you wrote what you meant to write. Your post was contradictory
and could have used proofreading, but more than that it would have done you
more good to read those links than to just rattle on without learning more.
<<No one group of people is hurting homeschooling anymore than another group.
One group might be more VOCAL about how/why they homeschool than others but
is the REASON really what's important?>>
Read about HSLDA before you EVER again say no one group of people is hurting
homeschooling.
And YES I believe the reason is important.
I can't believe if you're willing to say the reason for homeschooling isn't
important that you would be unschooling. You think restrictive school at
home in an abusive family which teaches full-on reconstructed history and
made up science is as good as unschooling?
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/10/2003 11:57:29 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
mamaxaos@... writes:
It was Baptist only in it's affiliation, in four years I saw not one sign of
anything remotely resembling the Baptist faith. You could pick CoEd dorms or
not. There were no particular rules about attending any kind of service. No
regulations about dress codes or curfews. Science classes taught even
"secular" science one might call it. Depending of on which course you took
you got whatever outlook you wanted to study.
Now, Liberty University in Lynchburg is a different story all together.
So I guess they are all different too, just like people?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
mamaxaos@... writes:
> Also, with the admonition that schools AND colleges expecting support withinMy oldest daughter went to a "Baptist" college. Chowan, in Murfeesboroo, NC.
> the convention are permitted to hire only teachers who support Biblical
> Inerrancy (as interpreted by leaders and not individuals), I find it hard
> to escape the perception that there is certainly an attempt to control the
> minds of children and youth.
>
It was Baptist only in it's affiliation, in four years I saw not one sign of
anything remotely resembling the Baptist faith. You could pick CoEd dorms or
not. There were no particular rules about attending any kind of service. No
regulations about dress codes or curfews. Science classes taught even
"secular" science one might call it. Depending of on which course you took
you got whatever outlook you wanted to study.
Now, Liberty University in Lynchburg is a different story all together.
So I guess they are all different too, just like people?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
This was in my junk mail just now.
More material for anyone undecided on whether all homeschooling and parenting
are of equal value.
Full subject line:
The Bible's Way to Victory over ADHD and Other Childhood C hallenges
You are invited to read our free online book, "The Bible's Way to Victory
over ADHD and Other Childhood Challenges." This book provides sound answers
on preventing and overcoming behavioral, emotional and learning problems,
including ADD (Attention Deficit Disorder), ADHD (Attention Deficit
Hyperactivity Disorder), ODD (Oppositional Defiant Disorder), Conduct
Disorder and Tourette's Syndrome. Please visit
http://www.audiblox2000.com/onlinebook/index.htm to read this book.
SOME REVIEWS ON THIS BOOK:
This is a book that should be compulsory reading for every parent and
would-be parent, for every student, for every pastor, for every medical
doctor, for every teacher. There is no one who has anything to do with
children and their development who should not read this book. -- Rev. Brian
Darroll
This book is a lifeboat for parents...a form of armament for parents...
Present-day parents are in dire need of the above-mentioned lifeboat and
armament. -- Prof. W. A. Landman
This is the most interesting book I have read in a long time. -- Prof. P. S.
Dreyer
Thank you so much for your well-researched and illuminating book.... I hope
you will have a positive response in many people's lives - as you did in
mine. -- Mrs. Irene Baas, parent.
Yours sincerely,
Benetta Strydom.
More material for anyone undecided on whether all homeschooling and parenting
are of equal value.
Full subject line:
The Bible's Way to Victory over ADHD and Other Childhood C hallenges
You are invited to read our free online book, "The Bible's Way to Victory
over ADHD and Other Childhood Challenges." This book provides sound answers
on preventing and overcoming behavioral, emotional and learning problems,
including ADD (Attention Deficit Disorder), ADHD (Attention Deficit
Hyperactivity Disorder), ODD (Oppositional Defiant Disorder), Conduct
Disorder and Tourette's Syndrome. Please visit
http://www.audiblox2000.com/onlinebook/index.htm to read this book.
SOME REVIEWS ON THIS BOOK:
This is a book that should be compulsory reading for every parent and
would-be parent, for every student, for every pastor, for every medical
doctor, for every teacher. There is no one who has anything to do with
children and their development who should not read this book. -- Rev. Brian
Darroll
This book is a lifeboat for parents...a form of armament for parents...
Present-day parents are in dire need of the above-mentioned lifeboat and
armament. -- Prof. W. A. Landman
This is the most interesting book I have read in a long time. -- Prof. P. S.
Dreyer
Thank you so much for your well-researched and illuminating book.... I hope
you will have a positive response in many people's lives - as you did in
mine. -- Mrs. Irene Baas, parent.
Yours sincerely,
Benetta Strydom.
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/10/2003 12:29:33 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
I believe I said that why would they be homeschooling IF they didn't think
they were doing the BEST they could for their children.
What is best for my children, might not be best for your children.
I don't know what others instruct, teach, expose their children too, frankly
it's none of anyone's business what I do with my children really, as long as
they are healthy, happy, learning and unharmed. So while we don't want the
government judging how or when we allow our children to learn, can we sit in
judgement of others who are doing the same for their children.
I do not dispute there are children who should not be homeschooled. There
are also children that are IN school that most certainly would be better off
homeschooled.
We do the absolute best we can for our children. Just because my morality is
different from someone elses I do not believe that I am in any was superior
or that they are inferior.
I have hostility because of the way I was raised too, I try to let it go and
not judge others who truly believe in their hearts that they are doing the
right thing for their children. It's not mine to judge. However, if they
are starving or abusing their children then that's different. That's against
the law and a crime, it's not against the law to teach one's children in
one's own way your own values. They will grow up and learn on their own what
is and isn't important to them.
Here's the thing, I think we all probably come to homeschooling/unschooling
for a variety of different reasons, different motivating factors, a final
last straw, a mother who knew since BEFORE she had children this would be her
course, and everything in between.
Does it make it wrong how we get here? As long as we are doing the absolute
best we can for our child/children isn't that all you can do? Is it the
motivation for the journey that's important or is it the journey itself that
is THE most important thing for our children?
Personally I don't think other unschoolers or homeschoolers are the enemy.
Others might think differently, and that's OK.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
> I can't believe if you're willing to say the reason for homeschooling isn'tI'm not in the homes of all these people to sit in judgement of what they do.
> important that you would be unschooling. You think restrictive school at
> home in an abusive family which teaches full-on reconstructed history and
> made up science is as good as unschooling?
>
>
I believe I said that why would they be homeschooling IF they didn't think
they were doing the BEST they could for their children.
What is best for my children, might not be best for your children.
I don't know what others instruct, teach, expose their children too, frankly
it's none of anyone's business what I do with my children really, as long as
they are healthy, happy, learning and unharmed. So while we don't want the
government judging how or when we allow our children to learn, can we sit in
judgement of others who are doing the same for their children.
I do not dispute there are children who should not be homeschooled. There
are also children that are IN school that most certainly would be better off
homeschooled.
We do the absolute best we can for our children. Just because my morality is
different from someone elses I do not believe that I am in any was superior
or that they are inferior.
I have hostility because of the way I was raised too, I try to let it go and
not judge others who truly believe in their hearts that they are doing the
right thing for their children. It's not mine to judge. However, if they
are starving or abusing their children then that's different. That's against
the law and a crime, it's not against the law to teach one's children in
one's own way your own values. They will grow up and learn on their own what
is and isn't important to them.
Here's the thing, I think we all probably come to homeschooling/unschooling
for a variety of different reasons, different motivating factors, a final
last straw, a mother who knew since BEFORE she had children this would be her
course, and everything in between.
Does it make it wrong how we get here? As long as we are doing the absolute
best we can for our child/children isn't that all you can do? Is it the
motivation for the journey that's important or is it the journey itself that
is THE most important thing for our children?
Personally I don't think other unschoolers or homeschoolers are the enemy.
Others might think differently, and that's OK.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/10/03 9:21:04 AM, fetteroll@... writes:
<< The original remark made -- while I'd expect many to disagree and not see
the connection -- was loosely tied to parenting and unschooling. >>
I didn't even think it was loose!
The question was what was okay for kids to see.
If I were Christian my answer would be different. If I were a Christian
homeschooler, Holly wouldn't be allowed to watch Friends or Dharma and Greg
or the Simpsons or anything else but maybe Little House on the Prairie and
Bonanza, those shows that glorify a fantasy Christian pioneerland.
Because my decisions aren't made from a position of puritanical fear of human
behavior, my answers are different than they would be otherwise.
And much or most of the fear adult parents have of sex DOES come from passed
down puritanical and fundamentalist issues.
FIRST we remember our priorities and philosophies, and THEN we can make
decisions.
When people ask questions here about what's okay or when something is okay,
the answer HAS to be "depends on your priorities and beliefs."
Sandra
<< The original remark made -- while I'd expect many to disagree and not see
the connection -- was loosely tied to parenting and unschooling. >>
I didn't even think it was loose!
The question was what was okay for kids to see.
If I were Christian my answer would be different. If I were a Christian
homeschooler, Holly wouldn't be allowed to watch Friends or Dharma and Greg
or the Simpsons or anything else but maybe Little House on the Prairie and
Bonanza, those shows that glorify a fantasy Christian pioneerland.
Because my decisions aren't made from a position of puritanical fear of human
behavior, my answers are different than they would be otherwise.
And much or most of the fear adult parents have of sex DOES come from passed
down puritanical and fundamentalist issues.
FIRST we remember our priorities and philosophies, and THEN we can make
decisions.
When people ask questions here about what's okay or when something is okay,
the answer HAS to be "depends on your priorities and beliefs."
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/10/03 9:34:04 AM, yhanley@... writes:
<<If they get spanked once a month the get spanked a lot. Besides it does not
work all the time and with each child. >>
It DOES work. It just doesn't do what you want it to do.
School lessons ALWAYS work. Most often they teach children to hate lessons,
and then the subject matter, and then learning itself. School has
effectively done that for over a hundred years.
When you hit your child, no matter what you tell him, you erode the
relationship between you. You spend trust points. And if the explanations
seem lame, you could begin to teach him you're not really very compassionate
or bright. I'm saying that because I was five or six when I started paying
attention to when and why my mother spanked and what her justifications were.
I respected her less every time, until I could hardly go lower in my
estimation.
<< For my son, I have to put him in a corner and let him have time to
reflect on what he has done. >>
You choose to.
<<For the older children I take away something they like or revoke something.
That gets their attention in no time flat. >>
Getting their attention isn't the same as helping them understand how to make
decisions on their own.
<<I know what it means to be abused. So does their father. And he does not
like me to spank them for anything, but seeing as I am the disciplinarian, he
just respectfully bows out, :o)>>
Lesser abuse can still be abusive, though it can seem benign by comparison.
<<Don't let a bad experience with one group of Christians make you feel that
all are crazy belt toting wild eyed people who beat their children at the
drop of a hat for no good reason. We are out here and find moderation for
what we do.>>
Please read those links and don't just guess or make up arguments to 'defend'
something of which you're not fully informed.
Sandra
<<If they get spanked once a month the get spanked a lot. Besides it does not
work all the time and with each child. >>
It DOES work. It just doesn't do what you want it to do.
School lessons ALWAYS work. Most often they teach children to hate lessons,
and then the subject matter, and then learning itself. School has
effectively done that for over a hundred years.
When you hit your child, no matter what you tell him, you erode the
relationship between you. You spend trust points. And if the explanations
seem lame, you could begin to teach him you're not really very compassionate
or bright. I'm saying that because I was five or six when I started paying
attention to when and why my mother spanked and what her justifications were.
I respected her less every time, until I could hardly go lower in my
estimation.
<< For my son, I have to put him in a corner and let him have time to
reflect on what he has done. >>
You choose to.
<<For the older children I take away something they like or revoke something.
That gets their attention in no time flat. >>
Getting their attention isn't the same as helping them understand how to make
decisions on their own.
<<I know what it means to be abused. So does their father. And he does not
like me to spank them for anything, but seeing as I am the disciplinarian, he
just respectfully bows out, :o)>>
Lesser abuse can still be abusive, though it can seem benign by comparison.
<<Don't let a bad experience with one group of Christians make you feel that
all are crazy belt toting wild eyed people who beat their children at the
drop of a hat for no good reason. We are out here and find moderation for
what we do.>>
Please read those links and don't just guess or make up arguments to 'defend'
something of which you're not fully informed.
Sandra
Tim and Maureen
----- Original Message -----
From: rubyprincesstsg@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2003 9:49 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Christians again
In a message dated 4/10/2003 12:29:33 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
>
We do the absolute best we can for our children. Just because my morality is
different from someone elses I do not believe that I am in any was superior
or that they are inferior.>
I don't believe this is about whether we think we are better than anyone else. This for me is about passion and advocacy.For me this is not even about morality. When fundamentalism leads you to not think for yourself and to harm others I believe I have a right to say something. I don't care if that parent thinks they are doing there best.Everyone of us knows those people who did not stand up for a child because his parent was doing his/her best.
Under no circumstance is this okay to me .When we don't speak out then we don't advocate for a different and better way.Because I think it is better does not mean I think I have the right answers. I just look in my heart and the eyes of my children and know they should not be treated in an inferior way.
maureen
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list owner, Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address an email to:
[email protected]
Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/10/03 9:57:30 AM, mamaxaos@... writes:
<< The churches were joined together for political and financial purposes
(such as providing support for "missionaries") or even occasional lobbying >>
And largely, too, to run a publishing business so people could buy Sunday
School materials and blanks for churc programs and training materials and
little booklets for witnessing and leaflets to pass out to those who've
missed church, and so forth.
<<In some churches and within the church culture there was indeed sometimes
an appearance of "cultism" (a concept not easily recognized then) but in
many churches there was also an empowering of women and children far beyond
some Protestant denominations. For example, I had a full vote in church
decisions while still a 10 year old female. >>
Me too. I could go to kid OR adult functions (choir, classes), and we were
told frequently that the convention was to provide services and did not
dictate belief or dogma to individual churches, but each was to study the
Bible and our soul's health was between us and Jesus, individually.
<<Even a full vote in determining whether a particular person had indeed been
"called" to lead the congregation as a pastor, minister of music, or youth
leader. As well as a vote in determining the salary of church workers and
where a particular "love offering" would be sent. .>
I remember voting on who would be deacons, LOTS. And every male member was
listed, even those I knew as a kid were not believers, were drunks, were
fooling around. So even as a kid, my vote WAS valuable. I voted for people
who were honest and nice to women and children.
<<I find today's Southern Baptist Churches to be WAY more intolerant than
some strict Baptists of 25 years ago. >>
I've seen the same thing. And their lobbying got very agressive and hostile
and narrowly focussed.
Sandra
<< The churches were joined together for political and financial purposes
(such as providing support for "missionaries") or even occasional lobbying >>
And largely, too, to run a publishing business so people could buy Sunday
School materials and blanks for churc programs and training materials and
little booklets for witnessing and leaflets to pass out to those who've
missed church, and so forth.
<<In some churches and within the church culture there was indeed sometimes
an appearance of "cultism" (a concept not easily recognized then) but in
many churches there was also an empowering of women and children far beyond
some Protestant denominations. For example, I had a full vote in church
decisions while still a 10 year old female. >>
Me too. I could go to kid OR adult functions (choir, classes), and we were
told frequently that the convention was to provide services and did not
dictate belief or dogma to individual churches, but each was to study the
Bible and our soul's health was between us and Jesus, individually.
<<Even a full vote in determining whether a particular person had indeed been
"called" to lead the congregation as a pastor, minister of music, or youth
leader. As well as a vote in determining the salary of church workers and
where a particular "love offering" would be sent. .>
I remember voting on who would be deacons, LOTS. And every male member was
listed, even those I knew as a kid were not believers, were drunks, were
fooling around. So even as a kid, my vote WAS valuable. I voted for people
who were honest and nice to women and children.
<<I find today's Southern Baptist Churches to be WAY more intolerant than
some strict Baptists of 25 years ago. >>
I've seen the same thing. And their lobbying got very agressive and hostile
and narrowly focussed.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/10/03 12:53:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
your opinion was geared toward "fundamentalist christians" Now, you even
leave the work "fundamentalist" off. That is as offensive to me (AS A
CHRISTIAN), as saying Black people love to eat watermelon. You can not
speak for all Christians, so don't even try, and dont spout off a bunch of
statistics and tell me to do my homework. I know I am a Christian, I don't
have to do research on my own faith. And, we watch all of those shows. As
a matter of fact, we do not restrict in any way what our kids watch on TV
Teresa
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
> If I were a ChristianYou criticize others for making "blanket statements" First, you claimed that
> homeschooler, Holly wouldn't be allowed to watch Friends or Dharma and Greg
>
> or the Simpsons or anything else but maybe Little House on the Prairie and
> Bonanza, those shows that glorify a fantasy Christian pioneerland.
>
your opinion was geared toward "fundamentalist christians" Now, you even
leave the work "fundamentalist" off. That is as offensive to me (AS A
CHRISTIAN), as saying Black people love to eat watermelon. You can not
speak for all Christians, so don't even try, and dont spout off a bunch of
statistics and tell me to do my homework. I know I am a Christian, I don't
have to do research on my own faith. And, we watch all of those shows. As
a matter of fact, we do not restrict in any way what our kids watch on TV
Teresa
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/10/2003 1:01:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
think we are!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
> Please read those links and don't just guess or make up arguments toBut don't you see, we are saying "HERE WE ARE" and we are NOT the people you
> 'defend'
> something of which you're not fully informed.
>
>
think we are!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/10/2003 1:04:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
tmthomas@... writes:
But unschooling/homeschooling for religious reasons is ABUSE? Then we are
saying that their religion is invalid. That their beliefs hurt children.
I think I must be completely misunderstanding this. What exactly is it about
homeschooled/unschooled "religious" families that is inferior? Maybe then I
will understand better what you are trying to say.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
tmthomas@... writes:
> Under no circumstance is this okay to me .When we don't speak out then weI don't believe that children should be abused either. Probably no one does.
> don't advocate for a different and better way.Because I think it is better
> does not mean I think I have the right answers. I just look in my heart and
> the eyes of my children and know they should not be treated in an inferior
> way.
>
But unschooling/homeschooling for religious reasons is ABUSE? Then we are
saying that their religion is invalid. That their beliefs hurt children.
I think I must be completely misunderstanding this. What exactly is it about
homeschooled/unschooled "religious" families that is inferior? Maybe then I
will understand better what you are trying to say.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Mary
From: <yhanley@...>
<<As for the spanking part. I use it as a last resort. If they get spanked
once a month the get spanked a lot. Besides it does not work all the time
and with each child. For my son, I have to put him in a corner and let him
have time to reflect on what he has done. Within a minute I get an attitude
adjustment from him. For the older children I take away something they like
or revoke something. That gets their attention in no time flat. The little
one, with certain things I am still finding her threshold. She is stubborn
one and can try the patience of a saint when she is ready. But I feel it has
its place. I know what it means to be abused. So does their father. And he
does not like me to spank them for anything, but seeing as I am the
disciplinarian, he just respectfully bows out, :o)>>
If you really want to unschool I would suggest you read some archives or
articles on discipline. I'm sure Sandra could point some out to you.
Spanking, putting your children in the corner and taking personal things
away from them is punishment, punishment that won't get anything but fear
and disrespect from your children. Not conducive to unschooling.
Mary B
<<As for the spanking part. I use it as a last resort. If they get spanked
once a month the get spanked a lot. Besides it does not work all the time
and with each child. For my son, I have to put him in a corner and let him
have time to reflect on what he has done. Within a minute I get an attitude
adjustment from him. For the older children I take away something they like
or revoke something. That gets their attention in no time flat. The little
one, with certain things I am still finding her threshold. She is stubborn
one and can try the patience of a saint when she is ready. But I feel it has
its place. I know what it means to be abused. So does their father. And he
does not like me to spank them for anything, but seeing as I am the
disciplinarian, he just respectfully bows out, :o)>>
If you really want to unschool I would suggest you read some archives or
articles on discipline. I'm sure Sandra could point some out to you.
Spanking, putting your children in the corner and taking personal things
away from them is punishment, punishment that won't get anything but fear
and disrespect from your children. Not conducive to unschooling.
Mary B
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/10/03 1:11:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
rubyprincesstsg@... writes:
Pam G.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
rubyprincesstsg@... writes:
> But don't you see, we are saying "HERE WE ARE" and we are NOT the people youBut we are not the majority.
>
> think we are!
>
>
>
Pam G.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/10/03 1:24:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time, genant2@...
writes:
that I recognize that I am a Christian unschooler/homeschoolers. But that my
ideas concerning children, unschooling/homeschooling are far away from the
majority of Christian unschoolers/homeschoolers. And I am speaking not from
articles read or web pages etc but from the two homeschooling groups I am in
as well.
That does not make me ashamed to be a Christian. Nor does it mean that I am
not friendly with these mothers. I do feel that they are doing the best they
know how for their children. For most of them they are homeschooling because
their preacher told them it is what God has called them to do. They will
share this openly. They love their children etc. And I do share me beliefs
when the time is appropriate.
I separate myself from comments about Christians because I recognize that
when people say things they are speaking about the majority. No one is
attacking me personally.
Pam G.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
writes:
> >But don't you see, we are saying "HERE WE ARE" and we are NOT the peopleI should probably clarify that, it was a brief message. LOL. By that I mean
> you
> >
> >think we are!
> >
> >
> >
>
> But we are not the majority.
> Pam G.
>
>
>
that I recognize that I am a Christian unschooler/homeschoolers. But that my
ideas concerning children, unschooling/homeschooling are far away from the
majority of Christian unschoolers/homeschoolers. And I am speaking not from
articles read or web pages etc but from the two homeschooling groups I am in
as well.
That does not make me ashamed to be a Christian. Nor does it mean that I am
not friendly with these mothers. I do feel that they are doing the best they
know how for their children. For most of them they are homeschooling because
their preacher told them it is what God has called them to do. They will
share this openly. They love their children etc. And I do share me beliefs
when the time is appropriate.
I separate myself from comments about Christians because I recognize that
when people say things they are speaking about the majority. No one is
attacking me personally.
Pam G.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Mary
From: <genant2@...>
<<I separate myself from comments about Christians because I recognize that
when people say things they are speaking about the majority. No one is
attacking me personally.>>
Couldn't it all be said to satisfy everyone then if the poster would just
say "christians I know".
Seems like that would make sense as we always can't know for sure how
everyone does something.
Mary B
<<I separate myself from comments about Christians because I recognize that
when people say things they are speaking about the majority. No one is
attacking me personally.>>
Couldn't it all be said to satisfy everyone then if the poster would just
say "christians I know".
Seems like that would make sense as we always can't know for sure how
everyone does something.
Mary B